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greg parker
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The Lunchroom Incident Revisited - Page 11 Empty Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

on Sun 11 May 2014, 5:35 pm
Colin Crow wrote:More on Dorothy Grarner.....

       3)  Mrs. Garner actually followed Vicki and Sandra as they left the fourth-floor window after the shots. She told me in an exclusive interview in 2011 that she was close behind the two women as the pair went through the office, exited out the rear door of that office, and went directly from there to the back staircase. That is why she was in a position to observe Baker and Truly as quickly as she was. Based on her statements, no elevator was involved during the trip.


Found here....


http://mysite.verizon.net/restu5kb/id24.html



The significance of this is that with Garner in position and Adams and Styles going downstairs at the time indicated it confirms that no assassin left the 6th floor via the staircase in the early minutes. Dougherty's statement to the WC also confirms this. The WC had information through Dougherty and the Stroud document that the available evidence precluded Oswald as an assassin.
Colin, this was covered in the Ed Forum PM thread. I made the following comments in regard to it in our PM thread:

A summary of Garner's statements:

FBI interview March 20, 1964
Watched the motorcade from her desk through a window on the 4th floor. Three fellow workers were with her.
Did not recall seeing Lee Oswald at any time prior to the assassination
Did not recall seeing any strangers in the building on the morning of the assassination
Remained in the Scott Foresman offices until going home at 2:30
----------------------
Nothing there about seeing Truly and Baker - nothing about going to the store-room - nothing about anyone she may have seen at the commencement of the lunch break. All such references are to the morning.
--------------

-----------------
The Stroud Document, June 2, 1964.
Mrs Garner is quoted as saying that she had witnessed Baker and Truly  "come up".
------------------
Nothing there that she did not witness anyone "coming down" - nor anything to indicate she even saw Baker and Truly arrive on the landing.
----------------------

Barry Ernest interview, June 27, 2011
Styles and Adams left the viewing window "straight away".
"Right after" that pair left, she went to a storage area behind the office and by the freight elevator. 
Could not recall why she went there other than to possibly get something.
Did not actually see the girls descend from the landing, but could hear them due to the stairs being very noisy
Couldn't recall if the elevators were operational
Saw Truly several times that day. but could not remember where and when
Saw a police officer OR officers on the stairs
-------------------------
Nothing there that is helpful in ruling out someone descending from the 6th  -- and fails to positively confirm the hearsay that she had seen Truly and Baker "come up"

Bottom line - the Stroud document is the only evidence that she had seen Truly and Baker together - but even that depends on how you interpret it. There is nothing to indicate she saw them on the landing. Her going to the storage room to get something is as bizarre as Frazier descending to the basement to eat alone after witnessing the assassination - and as bizarre as PM going up for a coke after witnessing the assassination. Unless she kept a pair of binoculars in the store room, I find that part hard to believe. I mean, who would do that? See the president get assassinated and then wander off to get office supplies to continue work?

-----------------------------

I just can't buy into all of her story. Nor I can't buy into any interpretation of the hearsay in the Stroud document - especially when she mentioned to BE that she had seen Truly several times that day but couldn't remember any of those circumstances.

Garner - imho - is a useless witness to try and prop up any version of events.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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greg parker
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The Lunchroom Incident Revisited - Page 11 Empty Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

on Sun 11 May 2014, 7:34 pm
Garner - imho - is a useless witness to try and prop up any version of events.

I will add that I acknowledge a lot of people have jumped on the band-wagon with her. But I believe that has more to do with a very good sales pitch from Barry Ernest than in any deep look into the history of the claims being made.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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Colin Crow
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The Lunchroom Incident Revisited - Page 11 Empty Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

on Sun 11 May 2014, 11:08 pm
Greg, the March 20 statements by employees were to ascertain just 3 things. Where they were at the time of the shots. Whether they saw Oswald at the time of the shots. Whether they saw any strangers in the TSBD that day. Nothing more. It is not surprising that there were any further details from her in that document.

The WC staffers were not dumb. It is clear from the released memos that they were as suspicious as most of us are now. They asked specific questions that required clarification to determine exactly what happened and how. In many ways their curiosity went unsatisfied just as ours is today. The wording of the Stoud document demanded further investigation at the time. The void until nearly 50 years later is all we have.

Just one example is the staffers asked for the elevators to be timed with a stopwatch in one memo. I cannot find anything to reveal that this simple task was performed. All we are left with is Lovelady's claim that it took 30 seconds to descend from the 6th floor. Yet analysis of another document in the archives reveals that this timing is clearly incorrect.
Colin Crow
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The Lunchroom Incident Revisited - Page 11 Empty Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

on Sun 11 May 2014, 11:27 pm
Frankie Vegas wrote:
terlin wrote:
greg parker wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:As for the Bowles contribution, the order if events is interesting but not conclusive obviously. Have been reading a lot of Sean's posts again and the thought that keeps coming back is how important that coke was. If Oswald was holding a bottle he wasn't the shooter, simple as that.
Well, there may be to come on this from a new member. You're among those whose opinions would be good to get on the ideas that will be put forward.

A new member on the playground? Goodie! A new playmate is always exciting especially if there is a hint of new ideas.

I, too, am excited!!

Just FYI: I've been reading Colin Crow's posts for years on the JFK Assassination Forum and always enjoyed them.
He's thoughtful, intelligent, obviously very well read on the case, and funny.
Super glad to see him here.
Many thanks for your kind words Frankie.
greg parker
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The Lunchroom Incident Revisited - Page 11 Empty Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

on Mon 12 May 2014, 7:06 am
Colin Crow wrote:Greg, the March 20 statements by employees were to ascertain just 3 things. Where they were at the time of the shots. Whether they saw Oswald at the time of the shots. Whether they saw any strangers in the TSBD that day. Nothing more. It is not surprising that there were any further details from her in that document.

The WC staffers were not dumb. It is clear from the released memos that they were as suspicious as most of us are now. They asked specific questions that required clarification to determine exactly what happened and how. In many ways their curiosity went unsatisfied just as ours is today. The wording of the Stoud document demanded further investigation at the time. The void until nearly 50 years later is all we have.

Just one example is the staffers asked for the elevators to be timed with a stopwatch in one memo. I cannot find anything to reveal that this simple task was performed. All we are left with is Lovelady's claim that it took 30 seconds to descend from the 6th floor. Yet analysis of another document in the archives reveals that this timing is clearly incorrect.
Colin, I know the background to those FBI interviews. My point was that it doesn't help her that certain things weren't covered. 

As for the Stroud document - lack of a quality investigation of the hearsay regarding Garner doesn't make those claims more believable. Barry Ernest has simply flapped the document around as a great and revealing new find and that has caused a lot of people to suspend critical faculties. The fact remains she told Ernest that she had seen Truly several times that day but could not recall what those circumstances were. She also said she saw a cop (or two) on the STAIRS. So the reality is there is nothing to support any interpretation of the Stroud hearsay that she saw Truly and Baker together on the 4th floor landing. She is therefore a useless witness for any theories regard a Truly/Baker/Oswald encounter.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

The menu is not the meal” Alan Watts
"He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool." Brigham Young
"
For evil deeds may better than bad words be borne." Spenser
 



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The Lunchroom Incident Revisited - Page 11 Empty Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

on Mon 12 May 2014, 2:35 pm
greg parker wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:Greg, the March 20 statements by employees were to ascertain just 3 things. Where they were at the time of the shots. Whether they saw Oswald at the time of the shots. Whether they saw any strangers in the TSBD that day. Nothing more. It is not surprising that there were any further details from her in that document.

The WC staffers were not dumb. It is clear from the released memos that they were as suspicious as most of us are now. They asked specific questions that required clarification to determine exactly what happened and how. In many ways their curiosity went unsatisfied just as ours is today. The wording of the Stoud document demanded further investigation at the time. The void until nearly 50 years later is all we have.

Just one example is the staffers asked for the elevators to be timed with a stopwatch in one memo. I cannot find anything to reveal that this simple task was performed. All we are left with is Lovelady's claim that it took 30 seconds to descend from the 6th floor. Yet analysis of another document in the archives reveals that this timing is clearly incorrect.
Colin, I know the background to those FBI interviews. My point was that it doesn't help her that certain things weren't covered. 

As for the Stroud document - lack of a quality investigation of the hearsay regarding Garner doesn't make those claims more believable. Barry Ernest has simply flapped the document around as a great and revealing new find and that has caused a lot of people to suspend critical faculties. The fact remains she told Ernest that she had seen Truly several times that day but could not recall what those circumstances were. She also said she saw a cop (or two) on the STAIRS. So the reality is there is nothing to support any interpretation of the Stroud hearsay that she saw Truly and Baker together on the 4th floor landing. She is therefore a useless witness for any theories regard a Truly/Baker/Oswald encounter.
The Stroud document, if anything, just adds to the confusion and the suspicion. Nothing more.
Lets be real honest about the TSBD stairway story. Its not going to get any clearer. And unless something new comes up, its not going to break through in any significant way. They didn't investigate this and its pretty obvious. But the task of trying to work out what actually happened and when, is a hopeless one. All we are left with are scraps to fight over. Like Colin said, these guys were smart. Smart enough to miss a few vital details.
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The Lunchroom Incident Revisited - Page 11 Empty Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

on Mon 12 May 2014, 6:06 pm
Paul Klein wrote:The Stroud document, if anything, just adds to the confusion and the suspicion. Nothing more.
Lets be real honest about the TSBD stairway story. Its not going to get any clearer. And unless something new comes up, its not going to break through in any significant way. They didn't investigate this and its pretty obvious. But the task of trying to work out what actually happened and when, is a hopeless one. All we are left with are scraps to fight over. Like Colin said, these guys were smart. Smart enough to miss a few vital details.
I think the existing facts and arguments put forth here make it clear that the 2nd Floor lunchroom incident didn't happen. How many others think that way is another story. I think the existing facts make it clear that Oswald is Prayer Man and was on the 1st Floor/TSBD entrance during the assassination. How many other people believe this is another story. To get more people to think this way may require a breakthrough such as producing a better, higher resolution image of Prayer Man or a way to make the existing one more clear. Or perhaps a new member with a new way of analyzing this. Or new information that supports or discredits existing information or witness statements.
 
This is like a case gone to trial and we are the jury. We hear the evidence, we ask questions, we deliberate, we try to come to a consensus. Nothing may be provable 100% but we're shooting for beyond a reasonable doubt. We try to convince other jurors.
 
And many of these jurors (the public) haven't been exposed to all of the facts and arguments we have. They will need to be persuaded. To do this will require a strong, Murphyesque telling of the facts, not to resolve every little detail, but to outline a credible story of what most probably happened.

Easier said that done.
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on Mon 12 May 2014, 7:10 pm
Stan Dane wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:The Stroud document, if anything, just adds to the confusion and the suspicion. Nothing more.
Lets be real honest about the TSBD stairway story. Its not going to get any clearer. And unless something new comes up, its not going to break through in any significant way. They didn't investigate this and its pretty obvious. But the task of trying to work out what actually happened and when, is a hopeless one. All we are left with are scraps to fight over. Like Colin said, these guys were smart. Smart enough to miss a few vital details.
I think the existing facts and arguments put forth here make it clear that the 2nd Floor lunchroom incident didn't happen. How many others think that way is another story. I think the existing facts make it clear that Oswald is Prayer Man and was on the 1st Floor/TSBD entrance during the assassination. How many other people believe this is another story. To get more people to think this way may require a breakthrough such as producing a better, higher resolution image of Prayer Man or a way to make the existing one more clear. Or perhaps a new member with a new way of analyzing this. Or new information that supports or discredits existing information or witness statements.
 
This is like a case gone to trial and we are the jury. We hear the evidence, we ask questions, we deliberate, we try to come to a consensus. Nothing may be provable 100% but we're shooting for beyond a reasonable doubt. We try to convince other jurors.
 
And many of these jurors (the public) haven't been exposed to all of the facts and arguments we have. They will need to be persuaded. To do this will require a strong, Murphyesque telling of the facts, not to resolve every little detail, but to outline a credible story of what most probably happened.

Easier said that done.
I have no doubt PM is Oswald but if I were to tell someone about PM at a BBQ (which has happened), I would need to bend their ear for about 2 hours or so after I show them the blurry image. Most people just turned off but I must admit, I am no Sean Murphy.
We might regard it as a revelation but it needs to be a slam dunk for it to be truly revealing. Like you said Stan, a higher resolution image that clearly shows its Oswald.
I get frustrated probably a bit too much. Its been like this for 50 years. Last years anniversary I got depressed reading all the bullshit in the media. There is nothing more I would like then to stick my finger up to all those pricks that have given me grief over this case.
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on Mon 12 May 2014, 11:12 pm
One thing that bothers me about the whole Baker-Truly roadshow is Truly's alleged movements just before, during and just after the assassination.

I helped Sean Murphy go through every single photograph that we have of the outside of the TSBD and its vicinity that were taken before and after the assassination.  We could find no trace of Roy Truly and O.V. Campbell who were supposed to be stood relatively close together alongside Mrs. Robert Reid.

Sean's Archimedes moment was when he revisited the film footage of Baker running toward the TBSD entrance in the James Darnell film.  Sean believes he found Truly as a hat wearing man who we see Baker run past.  This man in the footage is stood approximately twenty to twenty-five feet away from the TSBD entrance as Baker sprints by.

I never fully got on board with Sean's conclusion.  I'm not saying it's not Truly -- it could well be -- but I was always concerned that this footage did not marry up with Truly's testimony concerning his movements before, during and after the assassination.  Other factors make me skeptical.

Whilst going through all of the statements, affidavits and testimony I was always left with more questions than answers (as is generally the case) and the questions invariably centred around Truly's recollection of events.

Truly maintained he left the TSBD with O.V. Campbell to go for lunch at 12:10-12:15pm.  If it was 12:10pm then this means they were stood outside for twenty minutes waiting for the motorcade and if they left at 12:15pm then they were waiting for fifteen minutes.  This is quite a substantial amount of time.

The problems begin for me when Truly stated in his testimony that he and Campbell initially stood on the bottom TSBD steps to watch the parade.

Later during his testimony he claimed they then moved further toward what he terms "the parkway" which curiously on the Commission Exhibit they were using was actually Elm Street.

A few days ago Albert asked what I made of Mrs. Reid's different recollections in her statements.  I would proffer the following testimony as my answer:


Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?
Mrs. REID. No; I didn’t. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.
Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?
Mrs. REID. No: I could not say that because I don’t remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn’t even, you know, connected with anyone at all.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. BELIN.  All right.
Mrs. REID.  I can't remember the time they left.

On the subject of what time she left the building she said this:


Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12,12:15?
Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there.

Obviously she couldn't have left the lunchroom at 12:30 gone to the office to get her purse, go to the store room to pick up her coat and descend the flight of stairs to view the motorcade.  However, if she left at 12:25pm then her movements make sense because she also claimed, as did Truly, that she stood on the bottom steps of the  TSBD for "several minutes" before she saw the motorcade come around the corner of Main Street and she moved closer to Elm Street to view it.

Truly also claims to have stood on the bottom steps before moving closer and Reid claims she was with Truly and Campbell.

I have a few major problems with the narrative.  

The first major problem is Truly suggesting he went out for lunch at 12:10pm or 12:15pm.  In his testimony after making this claim this exchange takes place :

Mr. BELIN. All right.
Do you know approximately what time you got there [the Parkway], Mr. Truly? To the best of your recollection.
Mr. TRULY. 3 or 4 minutes after we reached the entrance, the walkway, we stood on the steps 2 or 3 minutes, and then I don’t believe - we just gradually moved out a bit.
And then when the policemen leading the motorcade came off of Main on to Houston, we saw them coming, and then we just moved out a little farther to the edge of the parkway.

Therefore Truly is actually telling us he arrived on the bottom of the TSBD steps at approximately 12:25pm and it completely undermines his previous statements that he was outside between 12:10 and 12:15pm.

Further suspicions are fuelled when we see the piece of crap Commission Exhibit that was used to mark Truly and Campbell's location outside the building:

The Lunchroom Incident Revisited - Page 11 Truly_10
CE361 is as useful as a chocolate teapot and it is without doubt that the commission wanted to hide as much as possible the locations of these witnesses before, during and after the assassination.

As Greg has pointed out Mrs. Reid was in contact with her husband who was "listening to the radio" in the Records building across from the TSBD and was telling her exactly where the motorcade was and how much time it was delayed by.

My suspicion is that Reid actually told Campbell and Truly when the motorcade was on its way and she relayed this information to them.

The reason I believe this to be the case is because Reid leaves me with the impression she phoned her husband after she "hurriedly ate lunch":


Mrs. REID. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their offlce and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late. But I went down rather soon and stood on the steps.
Mr. DULLES. Where was your husband working?
Mrs. REID. He works for the records building.


My second problem with the timings is Truly actually went on to describe an event that the film and photographic evidence proves is a outright lie.

When being questioned by David Belin the following explanation of events after the shots is described:


Mr. TRULY...and the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the flrst step on the entrance of our building.

If this did occur then the film and photographic record does not support it but if it did we have Truly back on the steps after what he infers were large crowds of people forcing his backwards.

Didn't happen IMO.

I've read every word Sean Murphy has written concerning the events surrounding Prayer Man and although he may be right, inasmuch as Truly may appear in the James Darnell film, I can't shake suspicions that Truly never left the steps.

If Truly was the inside man, I have few doubts that he was, then I have to entertain the possibility that he was rooted to the steps in anticipation of law enforcement entering the building.

Don't forget that we still haven't identified the black tie wearing man whose head is in shadow in the Altgens photograph, and there are other unidentified people in that photograph too.

Greg and I have discussed the possibility in the past that this black tie, white shirt wearing man could be Roy Truly.  It could also be Bill Shelley.  We know both Truly and Shelley were wearing white shirts and black ties that day.

I have never backed down from my opinion that there are things that have always bothered me about the Altgens 6 photo.  Never been able to put my finger on exactly what.  

But revisiting the testimony of Truly and once again seeing the problems and I look at Altgens and the two black tie men that appear within it, one with his face in shadow, and the other with his hand shielding his eyes from the sun and I can't help but entertain the notion that we could be looking at both Truly and Shelley in this photograph:

The Lunchroom Incident Revisited - Page 11 Altgen10

When asked who he saw when he was outside Roy Truly said:


Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot - I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade-somewheres in that area.

If the black tie man nest to Billy Lovelady is Bill Shelley then could it be possible that the white shirt, black tie man to his left is Roy Truly.  It certainly marries up to Truly's testimony that Shelley was stood to his right.

It really is one of those parts of the story that we continue to struggle to solve until someone has a brainwave and thinks of something that hasn't yet been thought of before the whole thing clicks into place or someone finds something in the archives that we have not seen before.

That being said I do believe it highly probably that Truly, Campbell and Reid were moved further away from the TSBD door for one very specific reason.  It added valuable time in getting Reid back up to the offices to have her run-in with LHO.  The alleged Reid-Oswald encounter has to occur AFTER the alleged Baker-Oswald encounter in the lunchroom.

In order to get Reid up there Truly and Baker have to be given a lead time and so, it seems to me, the moving of Truly-Campbell-Reid away from the TSBD steps is necessary and so they watched the motorcade from the "parkway" or the curb of Elm Street rather than the TSBD steps.  An imaginary surge of people then separates Truly from the small group on the Elm Street curb and he suddenly finds himself back on the steps and this gives him the opportunity to race into the building with Baker to run to the rear and start up the stairs.  They have their alleged Oswald encounter in the lunchroom (thirty seconds) but then Oswald has precious seconds to be on his way out to walk up Elm Street and get his bus but he also has to have his Reid encounter which must have taken place after he is accosted by Baker.

To get Reid into position they had to move her away from the doorway because she would have been up in the second floor offices way before Baker and Truly.  The moving of her (and Truly and Campbell) away from the door gave some breathing room - but not much - because according to Reid herself David Belin really put her through her paces to get her up into the office area just in time to see Oswald walking in with his full bottle of coca-cola:
 
Mr. BELIN. When we reconstructed your actions on Friday, March 20, which you said it took about 2 minutes, would you say that this was a maximum or minimum time?
Mrs. REID. Well, it wasn’t any less than that I am sure because 2 minutes time
Mr. BELIN. Did we kind of run?
Mrs. REID. Yes, we did, three times.
Mr. BELIN. Three times.
Mrs. REID. I remember that.
Mr. BELIN. And we were both hufilng and pufllng?
Mrs. REID. Yes, we were. I know I was that day, I think.


So to get Reid up there from her new position at the 'parkway' meant running back to the TSBD, running up the stairs, through the corridors and into the office within two minutes and to do so, according to the testimony, they had her running to do so.

This whole story is a crock of shit.

They were using a shoe horn to wedge all of this in place so he could be seen in the building, away from the front entrance, and give him just enough time to get out and have his fictional bus ride.
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 1:23 am
Lee, I have been going back over all my posts here (now there's a nauseating process for you) in search of one on the Reid affidavit, but evidently I must have posted it in deeper waters, if you catch my drift.

Anyway, the statement about the coke always struck me as out of place in the succession of narrative details ... that it comes almost like a non sequitur in relation to what is stated just previously.  When you look at the handwritten document, you find that the phrase was actually inserted in that place apparently after the final paragraph had been written out (the only reasonable explanation being that it needed to be there and that was the best available place).  It lends suspicion, at least for me, to the idea that she was coaxed to "remember" this particular detail.



The Lunchroom Incident Revisited - Page 11 Reid_t11
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 3:23 am
Hello Goodbye wrote:If this did occur then the film and photographic record does not support it but if it did we have Truly back on the steps after what he infers were large crowds of people forcing his backwards.

Didn't happen IMO.

I've read every word Sean Murphy has written concerning the events surrounding Prayer Man and although he may be right, inasmuch as Truly may appear in the James Darnell film, I can't shake suspicions that Truly never left the steps.

If Truly was the inside man, I have few doubts that he was, then I have to entertain the possibility that he was rooted to the steps in anticipation of law enforcement entering the building.

Don't forget that we still haven't identified the black tie wearing man whose head is in shadow in the Altgens photograph, and there are other unidentified people in that photograph too.

Greg and I have discussed the possibility in the past that this black tie, white shirt wearing man could be Roy Truly.  It could also be Bill Shelley.  We know both Truly and Shelley were wearing white shirts and black ties that day.

I have never backed down from my opinion that there are things that have always bothered me about the Altgens 6 photo.  Never been able to put my finger on exactly what.  

But revisiting the testimony of Truly and once again seeing the problems and I look at Altgens and the two black tie men that appear within it, one with his face in shadow, and the other with his hand shielding his eyes from the sun and I can't help but entertain the notion that we could be looking at both Truly and Shelley in this photograph:

...

If the black tie man nest to Billy Lovelady is Bill Shelley then could it be possible that the white shirt, black tie man to his left is Roy Truly.  It certainly marries up to Truly's testimony that Shelley was stood to his right.

It really is one of those parts of the story that we continue to struggle to solve until someone has a brainwave and thinks of something that hasn't yet been thought of before the whole thing clicks into place or someone finds something in the archives that we have not seen before.

That being said I do believe it highly probably that Truly, Campbell and Reid were moved further away from the TSBD door for one very specific reason.  It added valuable time in getting Reid back up to the offices to have her run-in with LHO.  The alleged Reid-Oswald encounter has to occur AFTER the alleged Baker-Oswald encounter in the lunchroom.
Truly doesn't appear to be on the TSBD building steps when the motorcade passes by per the Weigman and Darnell films. He said they wandered "gradually" out to the edge of the parkway. OK. Then he says the crowd "bore" him back to TSBD first steps like a wave, I guess. Then, Altgens 6 shows two men with ties, the one shielding his eyes being lower on the steps.
 
How many seconds time elapsed between Darnell and Altgens 6? Could Truly have scooted out like he said, and then got crowd surfed back in time for Altgens 6? 

I never really noticed the two tie-wearing fellows in Altgens 6but since we've gone to such lengths to identify everyone on the steps in Darnell, has the same been done for Altgens 6 which was taken moments later?
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 3:29 am
Interesting comments Lee about Truly. If he's not the guy outside who Baker runs past, perhaps he was in a lunchroom (either on 1st or 2nd floor) with someone else.  

"Mrs. SANDERS advised that this morning she called GERALDINE REID, another employee, telephone number FE 1-6617, who told her that the police officer who had first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr. TRULY, the warehouse manager, and OSWALD were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into OSWALD's stomach but TRULY advised the police officer that OSWALD worked for him. Police officer turned turned away and evidently left the area. She said according to REID, OSWALD then went to the main office and REID, although she had not observed the initial incident with the police officer, told OSWALD that the President had been shot."
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/exhibits/ce1434.htm


Personally, I agree w/ Sean on this but if Truly is not out front, he really could be anywhere.
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 6:55 am
beowulf wrote:Interesting comments Lee about Truly. If he's not the guy outside who Baker runs past, perhaps he was in a lunchroom (either on 1st or 2nd floor) with someone else.  

"Mrs. SANDERS advised that this morning she called GERALDINE REID, another employee, telephone number FE 1-6617, who told her that the police officer who had first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr. TRULY, the warehouse manager, and OSWALD were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into OSWALD's stomach but TRULY advised the police officer that OSWALD worked for him. Police officer turned turned away and evidently left the area. She said according to REID, OSWALD then went to the main office and REID, although she had not observed the initial incident with the police officer, told OSWALD that the President had been shot."
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/exhibits/ce1434.htm


Personally, I agree w/ Sean on this but if Truly is not out front, he really could be anywhere.
This story makes very little sense. Mrs Reid worked directly under Truly as a clerical supervisor. She would know that Truly either ate lunch in his office or went out for lunch. He would almost certainly never eat lunch with a worker, but if he did - it work surely strike Reid as unusual. The other aspect that is highly unlikely is that Baker would enter the lunch room, see two people sitting having lunch and arbitrarily decide that one of them was "suspicious". And how did he put his gun in Oswald's stomach? Did Oswald stand up when Baker came in? Was he ordered to stand? How would Baker know to take Truly's word that he was the boss and Oswald was one of his workers? The story is pure Chinese whispers.

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Colin Crow
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 7:02 am
This analysis is predicated on two events. The dash by Baker and Truly into the TSBD and to the NW stairway and the almost immediate descent by Adams and Styles from the 4th floor window and out the back door of the first floor. From these estimates it would seem that only another event, the lunchroom encounter, could explain the unnoticed crossing of their paths.


The FBI surveys

Consider the following regarding the times. Within a week of the assassination a number of exit routes were timed by the FBI. They appear in the link below. I have been playing with this info for some time and it seems to reveal some interesting information relevant to this thread.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57697&relPageId=129

Let us consider just the first of the surveys. The time taken to travel from the 6th floor SN to the NW stairs. Going down 5 flights of stairs and then to the front entrance of the TSBD. The travel on the 6th floor was at a fast walk and that on the first floor a normal walking pace. The time for this survey was 105 seconds. Essentially we have three components that comprise this total.

1. The time to travel the distance from SN to stairs. A distance of about 180 feet. A fast walk would represent about 9 feet/second. Time for this section is 20 seconds.

2. The time to travel distance from the NW stairs to front door. A normal walk would represent about 5 feet/second. Time for this section is 36 seconds.

3. The time to negotiate five flights of stairs (18 steps) including 4 landings (~20 feet).

From these estimates we can determine that the stair component represents 49 (105-56) seconds. Approximately 10 seconds per flight.

Remember these times were established long before the the recreations conducted months prior to Baker and Truly's WC recreations that were no doubt strongly influenced by the need to get Oswald to the second floor lunchroom just before Truly.

The WC version of B&T's travel includes some common components to those of the FBI that can be inserted into their time estimates.

I believe the more realistic WC time of 75 seconds should be used as the longer time (90 seconds) was performed as a mere "walk through". An error in their recreation was that Baker's timing was started the first shot, so, with a 6 second shooting sequence, this becomes 69 seconds after the last shot. We do have the footage of Baker charging to the front steps of the TSBD that has been used to estimate his time for the top of the front steps at about 25 seconds after the last shot. The footage shows a charging Baker passing a static Truly who presumably follows close behind.  He eventually catches Baker somewhere near the entrance. Given this observation it is likely that Truly initially lagged Baker by a few seconds. however as Baker pushed people aside working his way to the entrance he may have slowed and cleared the way for a following Truly. The WC version of events then has him in an encounter with Truly near the entrance who, after a brief exchange, tells him to follow him to the stairs. They also had a pause at the swinging door while Truly freed the stuck door to continue to the staircase. Their path on the first floor is essentially the same as the early FBI survey but reversed in direction, leading to the west elevator, where they paused again while Truly called for them to be released. Let's assume the time to travel the distance across the first floor is the same as that for a fast walk, even though the men were likely at a fast jog.

We have a time for this portion of their journey to get to the west elevator of;

25 seconds + 20 seconds + time at the entrance (unknown) + time at stuck door (unknown).

If we allow 5 seconds minimum for each unknown then the men were at the base of the NW stairwell at about 55 seconds after the last shot. (Maybe slightly quicker if their jog across the first floor was faster than a fast walk).

If we allow 10 seconds for each unknown (unlikely) then they are at the base of the stairs at a maximum of 65 seconds after the last shot. I say unlikely as the more realistic recreation for the WC Belin-directed recreation occurred at 69 seconds after the last shot. The men waited while Truly tried to call the west elevator before climbing one flight of stairs. I would estimate the reasonable length of time they waited to be about 10 seconds before proceeding and the climb to the second floor and Baker to get into position to sight Oswald at about a further 10 seconds. A total of 75 seconds, comparable to that determined by B&T with Belin.

Implication for Adams and Styles

For Adams and Styles to have cleared the first floor via the rear door before Baker and Truly come into view, (as their paths essentially crossed for about 50 feet), they would have to reach the back door about 50 seconds after the last shot to be unnoticed.

If we believe they left the fourth floor window as the president's car reached the overpass, their journey starts about seven seconds after the last shot. If they travelled directly to the NW stairs the distance is approximately 100 feet. If they ran, another 12 seconds would account for this component. It is possible they got to the stairs about 20 seconds after the last shot. They then travel three flights of stairs which would account for another 30 seconds. This best case scenario gets them to the base of the NW stairwell about 50 seconds post last shot. They still have another 50 feet or so to get to the back door. At best they are passing the east elevator about 55 seconds post shots.

At this point the only requirement for the lunchroom encounter to explain the events would be that Truly was not noticed by Adams and Styles in their dash down the stairs. Also Truly and Baker did not hear them. 

Possible alternatives that do not require a lunchroom encounter.

1. Adams and Styles leave after Baker and Truly ascend past the 4th floor.
For this scenario A&S must linger on the 4th floor for some minutes after the last shot. I consider this unlikely as there are a number of clues in Adams testimony that indicate an early exit. Eg the likely sighting of Barnett on Houston Street a minute or so after the shots before he returns to the front of the TSBD to meet with Brennan. In addition we have the Stroud document in support.

2. Baker and Truly arrived at the west elevator later than the recreations indicate. This would require the encounter inside the entrance to be much longer than previously thought. Maybe just 10 seconds or so. Of course if the interaction with Oswald occurred here (or somewhere else in the first floor not near the base of the NW staircase rather than the lunchroom, this is a possible explanation for the delay and is not so easily discounted. We have Mrs Reid who timed her encounter at 2 minutes post shots and this timing supports a WC lunchroom encounter well before 90 seconds. Obviously this scenario is consistent with Oswald as PM, sipping a coke when confronted by Baker who was looking for a way to the roof and in a position close to the front stairs and elevator but unaware that both would not get him to the roof. An extra delay of just 10 seconds at the entrance before Truly arrives would allow for the girls to have exited the building before B&T get to the west elevator. This would mean that at least Mrs Reid, Truly and Baker were all complicit in altering the real sequence after the event.
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 8:28 am
Colin,
you just reminded me of the section of Sean Murphy's 2011 email interview with Sandra Styles where she wrote:
*At the time, I first thought we went downstairs quickly; but in thinking about it further, I came to the conclusion that it was not immediately. I told an interviewer (FBI? not sure) that when we got downstairs, the police were there so I assumed we went down quickly; however, the interviewer told me that it took the police 15-20 minutes to get to the Depository, so I accepted that we must have taken longer to get downstairs than I first thought.* I went with what Victoria said because she spoke with such certainty; since I couldn't say for sure, I didn't argue with her. *She also told officeworkers that on the way down, she noticed the freight elevator cables were moving.* I'm not sure what that would prove; but since I did not notice that, that is what I meant when I said she was more observant...

http://www.freag.net/en/t/36o7g/sandra_styles

This statement provides evidence for two mutually exclusive theories.  1. The two women went downstairs so fast, Styles saw Marrion Baker while he was still on the ground floor ("the police were there").  2. The two women waited to hit the stairs so long that Baker was already headed up on the freight elevator while they were still walking down ("she noticed freight elevator cables were moving").  I doubt 2 happened unless they waited so long (minutes instead of seconds) to go downstairs that it was Mooney and the other police slowpokes Styles saw on ground floor. Of course if 1 is true, Baker could have taken either the stairs or the elevator up after Styles and Adams exited the building.
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 9:15 am
greg parker wrote:This story makes very little sense. Mrs Reid worked directly under Truly as a clerical supervisor. She would know that Truly either ate lunch in his office or went out for lunch. He would almost certainly never eat lunch with a worker, but if he did - it work surely strike Reid as unusual. The other aspect that is highly unlikely is that Baker would enter the lunch room, see two people sitting having lunch and arbitrarily decide that one of them was "suspicious". And how did he put his gun in Oswald's stomach? Did Oswald stand up when Baker came in? Was he ordered to stand? How would Baker know to take Truly's word that he was the boss and Oswald was one of his workers? The story is pure Chinese whispers.
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 9:54 am
I'm convinced that Barnett was the police officer that they saw. He had moved from the corner of Houston and Elm down the east side of the building shortly after the shots.

Mr. BELIN - Is there any other information that you can think of that might be relevant to anything, connected with the assassination?
Miss ADAMS - At the time I left the building on the Houston Street dock, there was an officer standing about 2 yards from the curb, and about from the curb across the street from the Texas School Depository, and about 4 yards from the corner of Houston and Elm, and when we were running out the dock, going around the building, the officer was standing there, and he didn't encounter us or ask us what we were doing or where we were going, and I don't know if that is pertinent.

Barnett was checking the fire escape and also trying to cover the rear of the building in the first two minutes. He would have been visible to the girls as they went out onto the the dock and down the steps before heading west.

We also have this timestamp of the radio transmission regarding the location of the shots over the police radio.

Miss ADAMS - When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
And she said, "I don't know."
And I said, "I want to find out." I think the President is shot.
There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.


They were back inside the building when Mooney first noticed the power cut and the elevators had stopped working more than seven minutes after the shots.

As for her observation of movement of the elevator she appears quite adamant in her WC testimony that it was not moving on the 4th floor and she did not notice after that. Who knows about the comment by Styles years later about what Vicki told her co-workers.
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 3:25 pm
She also told officeworkers that on the way down, she noticed the freight elevator cables were moving.*
This observation gives some credence that assassins used elevator shaft for there escape -
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 4:04 pm
gerrrycam wrote:She also told officeworkers that on the way down, she noticed the freight elevator cables were moving.*
This observation gives some credence that assassins used elevator shaft for there escape -

Mr. BELIN - Let me ask you this. As you got to the stairs on the fourth floor, did you notice whether or not the elevator was running?
Miss ADAMS - The elevator was not moving.
Mr. BELIN - How do you know it was not moving on some other floor?
Miss ADAMS - Because the cables move when the elevator is moved, and this is evidenced because of a wooden grate.
Mr. BELIN - By that you mean a wooden door with slats in it that you have to lift up to get on the elevator?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Did you look to see if the elevator was moving?
Miss ADAMS - It was not; no, sir.
Mr. BELIN - It was not moving?
Miss ADAMS - No.
Mr. BELIN - Did you happen to see where the elevator might have been located?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - As you got to the third floor, did you take a look at the elevator again at all, or not, if you remember?
Miss ADAMS - I can't recall.


As for assassin(s) using the elevator at this time it is likely that at the time Adams got to the stairs the assassin(s) could only just get to the elevators.
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 5:16 pm
Question:

If Baker runs into the TSBD before Truly - as per the theory of Sean Murphy - and it is Truly in the Darnell film as Baker sprints past - then when Baker goes through the TSBD doors why does he not immediately assume that the stairs that are directly in front of him are "the stairs" to the upper floors?

Why run into a building and ask "where are the stairs" when a set of stairs are plain as day right in front of you regardless of where those stairs actually go almost anybody who found themselves in Baker's position would, I'm guessing, assume those stairs went up?
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 5:50 pm
I said Elevator Shaft not elevator
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 6:06 pm
gerrrycam wrote:I said Elevator Shaft not elevator

Roy Truly is on record as claiming that he looked up the elevator shaft and could see that the elevators were on the fifth floor.

Has anybody ever looked into whether this is possible?  Could the wooden doors on the first floor be opened to look up the shaft to see how high up the building the elevators were?

Just another aspect of the story that I have struggled with...
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 6:16 pm
beowulf wrote:Interesting comments Lee about Truly. If he's not the guy outside who Baker runs past, perhaps he was in a lunchroom (either on 1st or 2nd floor) with someone else.  

"Mrs. SANDERS advised that this morning she called GERALDINE REID, another employee, telephone number FE 1-6617, who told her that the police officer who had first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr. TRULY, the warehouse manager, and OSWALD were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into OSWALD's stomach but TRULY advised the police officer that OSWALD worked for him. Police officer turned turned away and evidently left the area. She said according to REID, OSWALD then went to the main office and REID, although she had not observed the initial incident with the police officer, told OSWALD that the President had been shot."
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/exhibits/ce1434.htm


Personally, I agree w/ Sean on this but if Truly is not out front, he really could be anywhere.

I've toyed with the idea of him being inside.  I do think it more than likely that he was outside.  I just don't believe his story of when he went outside and where he was.  It's nonsense.

The area outside the TSBD had some of the smallest numbers of people on the entire parade route.  To steal Stan's phrase; the "crowd surfing" did not happen.  However, I think I may have discovered why CE 361 was put together the way it was and why the word "parkway" was used in both the document and the testimony.  I'll post it later...
Colin Crow
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 7:16 pm
gerrrycam wrote:I said Elevator Shaft not elevator
Ah......gotcha.
Colin Crow
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on Tue 13 May 2014, 7:41 pm
Hello Goodbye wrote:
gerrrycam wrote:I said Elevator Shaft not elevator

Roy Truly is on record as claiming that he looked up the elevator shaft and could see that the elevators were on the fifth floor.

Has anybody ever looked into whether this is possible?  Could the wooden doors on the first floor be opened to look up the shaft to see how high up the building the elevators were?

Just another aspect of the story that I have struggled with...
Lee, I believe this is the east elevator, from the movie "Oswald and Ruby'. Of course the WC version was the west elevator. That elevator had a double gate system I believe. I wonder how easy to see when the gates are closed.
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