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The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

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The Lunchroom Incident Revisited - Page 14 Empty The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Wed 02 Apr 2014, 7:42 pm
First topic message reminder :

I want to begin by focusing on the notorious vestibule door, with the plate-glass window, that Baker first glimpsed Oswald looking through. It's WC Exhibit 498, at XVII p. 213, and even in the Warren volumes you can easily discern the fresh grain pattern in the wood. First Day Evidence, on p. 286, is even clearer.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0120a.htm

Very probably this was a new door, installed during the late 1962 overhaul, when the Sexton Grocery warehouse was remodeled to accommodate the TSBD company and several other publishers. By the way, Sexton had its offices on the 1st & 2nd floors and very likely used the same lunchroom that we all know so well. The vestibule door had an automatic closing device, and Truly had to come in and make a special affidavit about that on August 3rd (WCH VII p. 591). It took several seconds to close. This device was probably pneumatic.

This vestibule door had some weight to it. It was sturdy. It could be described as heavy-duty. Installing it was a 2-man job. In comparison, the doors to the up & down flights of stairs were downright flimsy. (Same link as above, but page 217). These stairwell doors were normally open during the course of the day, as was the lunchroom door (WCD 496, p. 32). The vestibule door closed by itself and was always in the closed position, if not in use.

The vestibule door helped muffle the sounds from the landing and stairwell, so that people in the lunchroom could eat in relative peace & quiet. The stairs were old and quite noisy and the landing floors were wood. Warehouse workers habitually came up to use the lunchroom Coke machine. And office workers also came down from the 3rd  & 4th floors, human nature being what it is, rather than wait impatiently at lunchtime for the passenger elevator. For example, Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles' run down the stairs on November 22nd wasn't their first experience on them. They instinctively knew they could head for the corner stairwell when they discovered the passenger elevator wasn't operating.

Considering the potential for irritable human traffic, the vestibule door kept disturbing sounds to a reasonable minimum. It was installed with that purpose in mind.

****************************************************************

Adams & Styles watched the motorcade from their 4th-floor office window overlooking Elm Street. Adams estimated the time it took them to reach the 1st floor, after the shots, was "no longer than a minute at the most." She confirmed to author Barry Ernest that she left the window just before the limousine reached the Triple Underpass (The Girl on the Stairs p. 329).

The first point that needs to be appreciated is that Adams & Styles could not have beaten Truly & Baker to the freight elevators. Even if these women made it to the 1st floor in 60 seconds, Truly & Baker had 60 seconds to make it only as far as the will-call counter, or just a bit further into the warehouse, to see the women across the floor. And Adams & Styles continued running in front of the freight elevators for the rear door. Even the most sluggard time estimate for Truly & Baker brings them onto the warehouse floor well before Adams & Styles. And in one re-enactment they made it to the 2nd-floor lunchroom in 75 seconds.

The second point is that Adams' & Styles' supervisor, Dorothy Garner, stated for the record that after they went downstairs, she saw Truly & Baker come up. The purpose of Garner's statement was to refute the WC argument that Adams must have gone downstairs several minutes after the shots, because otherwise she should have encountered Lee Harvey Oswald fleeing down the steps. Garner's statement was given in the U.S. Attorney's office in Dallas, and they sent it to WC Chief Counsel J. Lee Rankin. But he never brought it to light, since it helped refute the Commission's contention that Oswald was the 6th-floor assassin. And the statement lay buried in the National Archives in the papers of the Dallas U.S. Attorney until Barry Ernest discovered it.

We can boil the stairs down to a mathematical problem, where A & S are descending from the 4th while T & B are ascending to the 4th (and then the 5th). Yet they never interact with each other. Why is this the case? Because T & B removed themselves from the stairs for a time, and went into the lunchroom. And it is a mathematical certainty that A & S passed T & B while they were in the lunchroom.

Why didn't T & B hear them? Truly said that he, Baker & Oswald were only 2 or 3 feet inside the lunchroom. The answer is that the vestibule door muffled a lot of sound, coming from Adams' & Styles' high heels clomping down the wooden stair treads and across the wooden landing. And T & B were in an intense, gun-in-the-belly situation with Oswald. Even if a little bit of noise from those high heels filtered into their eardrums, it was only high heels and they quickly brushed it off and forgot about it.

Baker estimated the lunchroom encounter took 30 seconds. The stairs were roughly L-shaped, split-level. I think it's fair to say that for someone in the lunchroom, floor "2 1/2" to floor "1 1/2" constitutes their hearing range. Half a flight of steps gets descended in about 5 seconds, with another 5 seconds for crossing the 10-foot landing. That's 15 seconds total for A & S to be in hearing range. They probably were on the 3rd-floor landing just as B & T entered the lunchroom.

Skeptics of the lunchroom incident not only have to construe Baker & Truly as liars. Since 2010, when Garner's information came out, they have to construe her as misbegotten as well- yet her statement was made with Oswald's escape in mind, not the lunchroom incident.

What the simple mathematics of this problem means is that the totality of evidence cited by the skeptics, as supporting the lunchroom episode as a non-event, is nothing more than a red herring. The disparate news stories are just that- disparate news stories, and they tell us little more than that reporters will write anything.

And etc. Bring your best arguments to the table, in favor of the non-event. Prepare for a whuppin'.  cat

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Thu 15 May 2014, 11:56 am
Richard Gilbride wrote:Points trumping the lunchroom hoax hypothesis:

- Baker was a straight-up cop. He was a hunter. He took individual initiative in breaking off from the motorcade and racing into the TSBD in search of a gunman. His integrity shows in the CBS Warren Report series (Part 6, if memory serves) and the London trial.

I guess that really proves the case, huh? Your opinion that he was a straight-up cop.

Only because people at ReOpenKennedyCase hate Richard will Redfern's reason, should he find one, be heartily approved, flimsy as it will prove to be. But these people know in their hearts that Richard speaks the truth. They do not like his arrogance because he does his homework. Well.

Sorry, Richard for all your gloating, I don't see any "truth" here, only more of your pompous posturing, only more of your deciding which testimony trumps some other testimony. That is opinion, not truth. Said so in Philosophy 101.

- Dorothy Garner gave a statement to a high-octane law office that confirms that T & B arrived upstairs after A & S descended, allowing the lunchroom problem to be reduced to a problem in physics. It becomes a long tube with a bulge in it (the lunchroom) and a ball that only ascends (T & B) and a ball that only descends (A & S). They don't bump into each other because one ball goes into the bulge.

Sure the story has balls, but it is still one testimony against another, isn't it? Not truth, Richard, opinion.

********************************

What surprises me most is that so many people have fallen for the lunchroom hoax story. That does not reflect well on the promoters, in my opinion, as regards their legacy in research. Someone like Vince Salandria, in his prime, would tear their arguments to shreds in no time flat. The Sophists were in love with endless possibilities, without resolution. I prefer resolution.

You may prefer resolution, Mr. Gilbride, but what you present is far from it. More sophistry. Tsk-Tsk.

Yes, it sounds like arrogance.

At least you are correct on that singular point.

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Thu 15 May 2014, 12:02 pm
Well said, Terry. Now if poor Gilbride is upset with all of us, he is more than free to fuck off. After all, he would be doing himself a massive favor by not being shown to be an arrogant fool on a constant basis.
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Thu 15 May 2014, 1:08 pm
Richard Gilbride wrote:Points trumping the lunchroom hoax hypothesis:

- Baker was a straight-up cop. He was a hunter. He took individual initiative in breaking off from the motorcade and racing into the TSBD in search of a gunman. His integrity shows in the CBS Warren Report series (Part 6, if memory serves) and the London trial.

- There are 7 points of correspondence between the Baker & Truly testimonies as regards their trip from the front lobby to the freight elevators, and 7 points of correspondence as regards what happened in the lunchroom.

1) Truly caught up with Baker inside the front lobby (III pp. 221, 249)
2) While inside the front lobby, Baker asked Truly where the stairs were (221, 249)
3) Truly ran into swinging door at will-call counter and Baker bumped into him (222, 249)
4) Truly pressed call button and freight elevator did not come down (223, 254)
5) T & B looked up the elevator shaft (223, 254)
6) They saw that the elevators were stuck upstairs (240, 254)
7) Truly yelled up the shaft twice (223, 249)

1) Truly led way up the stairs (224, 250)
2) B & O were just inside lunchroom door (225, 250)
3) Baker was facing Oswald (225, 250)
4) Baker asked 'Does he work here?' and Truly says 'Yes' (225, 251)
5) Baker left immediately (225, 251)
6) Oswald was calm & collected (225, 252)
7) Oswald had no change of expression as Baker's gun was close to him (225, 252)


- Truly was called back on August 3rd to execute an affidavit solely in regard to the question of whether the vestibule door had an automatic closing device. Now, Truly hadn't seen Oswald go through that door, and Baker hadn't seen the door in the process of closing- meaning that Oswald came from the direction of the central offices.

If the lunchroom saga was a hoax, why didn't the master scriptwriter tell Truly that he should have seen Oswald go through the door?

- Military historian Alfred Goldberg called the FBI the day after finishing writing the Warren Report- and the day before its publication- to get Baker & Truly to rehash the lunchroom incident one further time. Why would he even bother contacting them if he was scriptwriting a hoax?

- Had Adams & Styles trained for this event 1000 times, on their best day they couldn't have escaped Truly & Baker's notice by the time A & S got to the corner of the east elevator. Redfern is fishing at present for a plausible reason that would stall T & B in the front lobby. None is in the evidence. Only because people at ReOpenKennedyCase hate Richard will Redfern's reason, should he find one, be heartily approved, flimsy as it will prove to be. But these people know in their hearts that Richard speaks the truth. They do not like his arrogance because he does his homework. Well.

- Dorothy Garner gave a statement to a high-octane law office that confirms that T & B arrived upstairs after A & S descended, allowing the lunchroom problem to be reduced to a problem in physics. It becomes a long tube with a bulge in it (the lunchroom) and a ball that only ascends (T & B) and a ball that only descends (A & S). They don't bump into each other because one ball goes into the bulge.

********************************

What surprises me most is that so many people have fallen for the lunchroom hoax story. That does not reflect well on the promoters, in my opinion, as regards their legacy in research. Someone like Vince Salandria, in his prime, would tear their arguments to shreds in no time flat. The Sophists were in love with endless possibilities, without resolution. I prefer resolution.
Richard,

1. Your 7/7 points of correspondence are all from WC testimony. That type of correspondence would be more plausible if it had been there from the get-go. It wasn't. Not even close.

2. "The Master Scriptwriter" is your (rather fustian) invention. This was a reluctant work in progress as needed. Anyone a of number of people could have wittingly or unwittingly contributed to the need for a revision, or to the revision itself. That there were revisions to the story is an indisputable fact.

3. Goldberg was writing a report (sometimes only loosely) based on the evidence he had in front of him. Who has claimed he was the original author of the 2nd floor encounter? 

4. Your insistence that A & S could not get out in time is based on a bunch of your own assumptions and hand-picked evidence. ALL the timings are meaningless because of the assumptions used. 

5. Dorothy Garner gave no statement. She was not even quoted. That you refer to it as a "statement" - as if some formal legal document, is indicative of your whole approach here on this matter, unfortunately.  Apart from that, she did not support the interpretation you have placed on it when interviewed by Barry Ernest.

From a BE piece on Garner:

  Had she seen Roy Truly on November 22nd? 
     "I saw him several times that day," she said, but I'm not sure 
when or where." 
     How about a policeman accompanied by Truly coming up the stairs? 
     "I remember I saw a policeman or police officers on the stairs, 
yes." 
     I pressed a bit more and asked the question again, recognizing 
the passage of time, the "confusion of the moment" as she had called 
it, and the fact its significance was lost on her may have made the 
question seem unimportant. 
     Did she remember seeing Roy Truly and a police officer come up 
the stairs together? 
     "I could have," she answered, "but there was so much confusion. 
It was, after all, a few years ago!" 

Note that Ernest seems to think as I do... that she was referring to seeing them "coming up" and not necessarily seeing them actually there on the landing.

6. Which brings me to Barry Ernest. Ernest himself does not appear to have interpreted this piece of paraphrasing in the manner you  have.  He described it as "almost looking like an afterthought". What he did not ask her was whether she made the statement in the document direct to the author of the document, or whether she made the remark to Adams or someone else who then repeated it.  

7. Your idea of what constitutes "hard evidence" is right up there with that of McAdams and DVP. I find that a little bit distressing.

8. I don't doubt that some here have come to have a very real dislike for you. I am not among them. I do remain very concerned by what I perceive as a startling change in your attitude and demeanor, and frankly don't blame anyone if they have a disdain for this "new" you. 

I got the PDF and when I get a chance, will try and get it up in a manner that looks okay. If there are any formatting problems within what you sent, I will also try and fix those.

ps I agree Baker was a straight up cop. That is a default assumption in absence of any evidence of past misdeeds. And that's part of why I believe his first day statement was made to the best of his recollection. After Oswald was killed, it would have been relatively easy to persuade him to get on board. A different world back then. What constitutes good police work is a fluid thing, if you get my drift.


Last edited by greg parker on Thu 15 May 2014, 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Thu 15 May 2014, 1:39 pm
Goldberg was brought in by Warren Commission to translate legalese into English. He no doubt assumed what the lawyers fed him was true. If I remember correctly, Goldberg had stated in WR that Oswald was alone in lunchroom. The last minute (as in day before WR release) Baker & Truly affidavits were needed to back this assertion up.
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Thu 15 May 2014, 2:02 pm
Greg, any hints you care to share about Linda Zambagini's angle of attack? I'm looking forward to reading her piece.
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Thu 15 May 2014, 3:07 pm
What I will say is that it involves measurements between hands and of a particular object to see how well said object would fit. It does. 

I would name it, but I don't want to set off a round of posts on that item prior to Linda presenting what she has. Apart from that, she may have an Uncle Vito! 

I know everyone is waiting for it, but as with some of us, the hunt for more and more can at times overtake everything else.

What Linda brings to the table - apart from her hard work (and it really has been) on this - is a lot of enthusiasm and positivity.

She will be a very welcome addition to the ROKC forum.

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-----------------------------
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"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

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Thu 15 May 2014, 8:20 pm
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Thu 15 May 2014, 8:57 pm
Richard Gilbride wrote:Only because people at ReOpenKennedyCase hate Richard will Redfern's reason, should he find one, be heartily approved, flimsy as it will prove to be. But these people know in their hearts that Richard speaks the truth. They do not like his arrogance because he does his homework. Well.

I actually tend to think that the people at ReOpenKennedyCase know in their hearts that Richard talks nothing but complete and utter shit, which has been shown to be the case time and time again.
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Thu 15 May 2014, 9:04 pm
This goes from bad to inane.  Either you have been getting coached by Paul Trejo or you've just simply lost the plot.  Or both. You now find yourself in the same position as McAdams and Bugliosi -- you can only prop up the Warren Commission conclusions by lying, distorting, and omitting.  Well done.  

Let's go through your first point that you claim "trump" proceedings shall we?

Richard Gilbride wrote:

"[Baker & Truly corroborated] points trumping the lunchroom hoax hypothesis:

1) Truly caught up with Baker inside the front lobby (III pp. 221, 249)"

Nonsense.  Utter drivel.  Neither the testimony or the statements support this one iota.  I must have had some Will Fritzesque precognition episode prior to you posting this because my post preceding yours proves there was no corroboration from Roy Truly concerning where Truly caught up with Baker.  Roy Truly actually fumbles his way through his answer to the question during his Warren Commission appearance and he did not clearly define where they first met.  He very specifically states that he "did not remember" and that it could "possibly" have been the front steps.

Truly said "I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don’t remember that close."

How the hell do you convert that statement into Truly and Baker both saying they first met in the lobby?  Jeez.  I don't think David Von Pein would be desperate enough to lie this blatantly.

Here is Truly's quote from his November 22nd FBI statement:

"He then noticed a Dallas City Police officer wearing a motorcycle helmet and·boots running toward the entrance of the depository building and he accompanied the officer into the front of the building."
 
Here is Truly's quote from his FBI statement on November 23rd:

"He moved toward the building and thought at first the shots came from behind the building.
He saw a police officer in uniform approaching the building and realized he probably knew nothing of the building and, therefore, 
TRULY ran into the building with him."

I'm loathe to have to go through all of your bullshit points and expose the complete and utter fraud and lies you are spreading -- but someone has to.  You have turned into a complete and utter bullshitter.

There never was, and there still isn't, any corroboration between Baker and Truly on where Truly caught up with Baker.
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Thu 15 May 2014, 9:31 pm
Hello Goodbye wrote:This goes from bad to inane.  Either you have been getting coached by Paul Trejo or you've just simply lost the plot.  Or both. You now find yourself in the same position as McAdams and Bugliosi -- you can only prop up the Warren Commission conclusions by lying, distorting, and omitting.  Well done.  

Let's go through your first point that you claim "trump" proceedings shall we?

Richard Gilbride wrote:

"[Baker & Truly corroborated] points trumping the lunchroom hoax hypothesis:

1) Truly caught up with Baker inside the front lobby (III pp. 221, 249)"

Nonsense.  Utter drivel.  Neither the testimony or the statements support this one iota.  I must have had some Will Fritzesque precognition episode prior to you posting this because my post preceding yours proves there was no corroboration from Roy Truly concerning where Truly caught up with Baker.  Roy Truly actually fumbles his way through his answer to the question during his Warren Commission appearance and he did not clearly define where they first met.  He very specifically states that he "did not remember" and that it could "possibly" have been the front steps.

Truly said "I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don’t remember that close."

How the hell do you convert that statement into Truly and Baker both saying they first met in the lobby?  Jeez.  I don't think David Von Pein would be desperate enough to lie this blatantly.

Here is Truly's quote from his November 22nd FBI statement:

"He then noticed a Dallas City Police officer wearing a motorcycle helmet and·boots running toward the entrance of the depository building and he accompanied the officer into the front of the building."
 
Here is Truly's quote from his FBI statement on November 23rd:

"He moved toward the building and thought at first the shots came from behind the building.
He saw a police officer in uniform approaching the building and realized he probably knew nothing of the building and, therefore, 
TRULY ran into the building with him."

I'm loathe to have to go through all of your bullshit points and expose the complete and utter fraud and lies you are spreading -- but someone has to.  You have turned into a complete and utter bullshitter.

There never was, and there still isn't, any corroboration between Baker and Truly on where Truly caught up with Baker.
We can get to the bottom of this right now.

On this particular point Richard seems to have borrowed the MO of WC apologists. 

Here is what the WCR says: "Baker "had it in mind that the shots came from the top of this building here," so he ran straight to the entrance of the Depository Building. Baker testified that he entered the lobby of the building and "spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was... and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, 'I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you.' "


It has the meeting inside and gives no hint that Truly had just been outside - probably because of his "uncertainty" during testimony. But as far as Richard goes, here is the sting. The WCR cites the same Baker testimony as Richard, but Richard has made the mistake of throwing in Truly's testimony without apparently reading it too carefully.  

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"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
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Thu 15 May 2014, 10:21 pm
Using Richard Gilbride's latest ground breaking research I have put together the most comprehensive and factually driven narrative detailing Lee Oswald's very convenient brush with the law only minutes after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

What follows is true.

In order to get Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles past Roy Truly and Officer Marrion Baker without being heard or seen, we first have to hermetically seal Truly & Baker inside a soundproof bubble for a minimum of fifteen seconds.

Roy Truly notices that the armed man he has very politely offered to escort up the stairs toward a potentially insane Presidential assassin has ditched him and left him ascending stairs toward his own possible demise.  Truly thinks "What a wanker. You try to be nice to some people and they just start taking the piss."  Truly hot trots it over to the vestibule and once again "catches up with Baker."  He opens the vestibule door and he waits for it to close behind him.

Truly leans inside the lunchroom by 2-3 feet by stretching himself akin to Reed Richards from the Fantastic Four and gets all cozy with Baker and the Oz.

All three are now in a vacuum and no noise from outside can penetrate.

We begin to time the fifteen seconds.

Baker to Truly "Does this man work here?"

Truly to Baker "Yes."

Total time elapsed 3 seconds.

Baker to Truly "Are you sure?"

Truly to Baker "Did I fucking stutter?"

Total time elapsed 6 seconds.

Baker to Oswald "Can I have a sip of your coke?"

Oswald to Baker "Fuck off, pig."

Total time elapsed 9 seconds.

Baker to Truly "You still okay with me using you as a human shield?"

Truly to Baker "Suppose. But you'd best not fuck off and leave me like you did just now.  Fucking rude that was."

Total time elapsed 14 seconds.

Baker to Truly "Stop your whining.  Let's go four eyes."

Baker and Truly quickly cross the three feet of open space between them and the lunchroom entrance.  They lean over and open the hermetically sealed vestibule door.  Whooooosh.  Truly stops. Whispering he asks Baker "Do you have the sound of heels clippiddy clopping on stairs filtering through to your eardrums, Chief?"

Baker, the hunter, throws Truly a wry smile, "Pay it no mind.  They're only heels.  I'm sure they're not running away from anything dangerous.  Now, c'mon, you crying little weasel.  We've got an assassin to catch.  Get your ass up front."


Last edited by Hello Goodbye on Fri 16 May 2014, 1:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thu 15 May 2014, 10:53 pm
Hello Goodbye wrote:Using Richard Gilbride's latest ground breaking research I have put together the most comprehensive and factually driven narrative detailing Lee Oswald's very convenient brush with the law only minutes after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

What follows is true.

In order to get Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles past Roy Truly and Officer Marrion Baker without being heard or seen, we first have to hermetically seal Truly & Baker inside a soundproof bubble for a minimum of fifteen seconds.

Roy Truly notices that the armed man he has very politely offered to escort up the stairs toward a potentially insane Presidential assassin has ditched him and left him ascending stairs toward his own possible demise.  Truly thinks "What a wanker. You try to be nice to some people and they just start taking the piss."  Truly hot trots it over to the vestibule and once again "catches up with Baker."  He opens the vestibule door and he waits for it to close behind him.

Truly leans inside the lunchroom by 2-3 feet by stretching himself akin to Reed Richards from the Fantastic Four and gets all cozy with Baker and the Oz.

All three are now in a vacuum and no noise from outside can penetrate.

We begin to time the fifteen seconds.

Baker to Truly "Does this man work here?"

Truly to Baker "Yes."

Total time elapsed 3 seconds.

Baker to Truly "Are you sure?"

Truly to Baker "Did I fucking stutter?"

Total time elapsed 6 seconds.

Baker to Oswald "Can I have a sip of your coke?"

Oswald to Baker "Fuck off, pig."

Total time elapsed 9 seconds.

Baker to Truly "You still okay with me using you as a human shield?"

Truly to Baker "Suppose. But you'd best not fuck off and leave me like you did just now.  Fucking rude that was."

Total time elapsed 14 seconds.

Baker to Truly "Stop your whining.  Let's go four eyes."

Baker and Truly quickly cross the three feet of open space between them and the lunchroom entrance.  They lean over open the hermetically sealed vestibule door.  Whooooosh.  Truly stops. Whispering he asks Baker "Do you have the sound of heels clippiddy clopping on stairs filtering through to your eardrums, Chief?"

Baker, the hunter, throws Truly a wry smile, "Pay it no mind.  They're only heels.  I'm sure they're not running away from anything dangerous.  Now, c'mon, you crying little weasel.  We've got an assassin to catch.  Get your ass up front."

Lee,

Although liberally paraphrased, I do believe you have recounted the case perfectly - That is, if I correctly recall the last memo from Gerald Ford. I believe he put it just that way... well, except for the rather insulting term "four eyes".

Now why didn't Richard just put it all together like this?

Heck, it would have convinced me.

 Laughing 

Terry - a new firm believer in this second floor encounter.

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Thu 15 May 2014, 11:08 pm
terlin wrote:
Hello Goodbye wrote:Using Richard Gilbride's latest ground breaking research I have put together the most comprehensive and factually driven narrative detailing Lee Oswald's very convenient brush with the law only minutes after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

What follows is true.

In order to get Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles past Roy Truly and Officer Marrion Baker without being heard or seen, we first have to hermetically seal Truly & Baker inside a soundproof bubble for a minimum of fifteen seconds.

Roy Truly notices that the armed man he has very politely offered to escort up the stairs toward a potentially insane Presidential assassin has ditched him and left him ascending stairs toward his own possible demise.  Truly thinks "What a wanker. You try to be nice to some people and they just start taking the piss."  Truly hot trots it over to the vestibule and once again "catches up with Baker."  He opens the vestibule door and he waits for it to close behind him.

Truly leans inside the lunchroom by 2-3 feet by stretching himself akin to Reed Richards from the Fantastic Four and gets all cozy with Baker and the Oz.

All three are now in a vacuum and no noise from outside can penetrate.

We begin to time the fifteen seconds.

Baker to Truly "Does this man work here?"

Truly to Baker "Yes."

Total time elapsed 3 seconds.

Baker to Truly "Are you sure?"

Truly to Baker "Did I fucking stutter?"

Total time elapsed 6 seconds.

Baker to Oswald "Can I have a sip of your coke?"

Oswald to Baker "Fuck off, pig."

Total time elapsed 9 seconds.

Baker to Truly "You still okay with me using you as a human shield?"

Truly to Baker "Suppose. But you'd best not fuck off and leave me like you did just now.  Fucking rude that was."

Total time elapsed 14 seconds.

Baker to Truly "Stop your whining.  Let's go four eyes."

Baker and Truly quickly cross the three feet of open space between them and the lunchroom entrance.  They lean over open the hermetically sealed vestibule door.  Whooooosh.  Truly stops. Whispering he asks Baker "Do you have the sound of heels clippiddy clopping on stairs filtering through to your eardrums, Chief?"

Baker, the hunter, throws Truly a wry smile, "Pay it no mind.  They're only heels.  I'm sure they're not running away from anything dangerous.  Now, c'mon, you crying little weasel.  We've got an assassin to catch.  Get your ass up front."

Lee,

Although liberally paraphrased, I do believe you have recounted the case perfectly - That is, if I correctly recall the last memo from Gerald Ford. I believe he put it just that way... well, except for the rather insulting term "four eyes".

Now why didn't Richard just put it all together like this?

Heck, it would have convinced me.

 :lol: 

Terry - a new firm believer in this second floor encounter.

Not aware of that memo, Terry.  In fact I believe Ford had a habit of referring to Chief Justice Earl Warren as "four eyes" during the executive sessions.  "I haven't leaked fuck all, four eyes" was one of his favourites along with "Can someone tell four eyes that I need a bigger briefcase?"  

However, I was cognizant of the fact that Gerry was responsible for moving Truly, Baker and Oswald further inside the lunchroom by three inches but because of the 2-3 feet already involved and the hermetically sealed door I felt it had no bearing on the big picture.  Ford was just trying to be as specific as possible -- for the sake of clarity.
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Thu 15 May 2014, 11:16 pm
Hello Goodbye wrote:
Not aware of that memo, Terry.  In fact I believe Ford had a habit of referring to Chief Justice Earl Warren as "four eyes" during the executive sessions.  "I haven't leaked fuck all, four eyes" was one of his favourites along with "Can someone tell four eyes that I need a bigger briefcase?"  

However, I was cognizant of the fact that Gerry was responsible for moving Truly, Baker and Oswald further inside the lunchroom by three inches but because of the 2-3 feet already involved and the hermetically sealed door I felt it had no bearing on the big picture.  Ford was just trying to be as specific as possible -- for the sake of clarity.

Lee,

Thanks for the clarity.
I must have overlooked that part.

Terry

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Fri 16 May 2014, 2:58 am
greg parker wrote:What I will say is that it involves measurements between hands and of a particular object to see how well said object would fit. It does. 

I would name it, but I don't want to set off a round of posts on that item prior to Linda presenting what she has. Apart from that, she may have an Uncle Vito! 

I know everyone is waiting for it, but as with some of us, the hunt for more and more can at times overtake everything else.

What Linda brings to the table - apart from her hard work (and it really has been) on this - is a lot of enthusiasm and positivity.

She will be a very welcome addition to the ROKC forum.
You may want to use the hotline and give Sean Murphy a heads up here. As Prayer Man guru, he may want to follow this discussion. 

Just thinkin' 'n anticipatin'....
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Fri 16 May 2014, 3:29 am
Hello Goodbye wrote:Using Richard Gilbride's latest ground breaking research I have put together the most comprehensive and factually driven narrative detailing Lee Oswald's very convenient brush with the law only minutes after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

What follows is true.

In order to get Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles past Roy Truly and Officer Marrion Baker without being heard or seen, we first have to hermetically seal Truly & Baker inside a soundproof bubble for a minimum of fifteen seconds.

Roy Truly notices that the armed man he has very politely offered to escort up the stairs toward a potentially insane Presidential assassin has ditched him and left him ascending stairs toward his own possible demise.  Truly thinks "What a wanker. You try to be nice to some people and they just start taking the piss."  Truly hot trots it over to the vestibule and once again "catches up with Baker."  He opens the vestibule door and he waits for it to close behind him.

Truly leans inside the lunchroom by 2-3 feet by stretching himself akin to Reed Richards from the Fantastic Four and gets all cozy with Baker and the Oz.

All three are now in a vacuum and no noise from outside can penetrate.

We begin to time the fifteen seconds.

Baker to Truly "Does this man work here?"

Truly to Baker "Yes."

Total time elapsed 3 seconds.

Baker to Truly "Are you sure?"

Truly to Baker "Did I fucking stutter?"

Total time elapsed 6 seconds.

Baker to Oswald "Can I have a sip of your coke?"

Oswald to Baker "Fuck off, pig."

Total time elapsed 9 seconds.

Baker to Truly "You still okay with me using you as a human shield?"

Truly to Baker "Suppose. But you'd best not fuck off and leave me like you did just now.  Fucking rude that was."

Total time elapsed 14 seconds.

Baker to Truly "Stop your whining.  Let's go four eyes."

Baker and Truly quickly cross the three feet of open space between them and the lunchroom entrance.  They lean over and open the hermetically sealed vestibule door.  Whooooosh.  Truly stops. Whispering he asks Baker "Do you have the sound of heels clippiddy clopping on stairs filtering through to your eardrums, Chief?"

Baker, the hunter, throws Truly a wry smile, "Pay it no mind.  They're only heels.  I'm sure they're not running away from anything dangerous.  Now, c'mon, you crying little weasel.  We've got an assassin to catch.  Get your ass up front."
Baker, Truly and Oswald Lunch Room Reenactment

The Lunchroom Incident Revisited - Page 14 Cone-of-silence


TerryWMartin
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Fri 16 May 2014, 3:59 am
Paul Klein wrote:
Baker, Truly and Oswald Lunch Room Reenactment

The Lunchroom Incident Revisited - Page 14 Cone-of-silence



Now you're getting smart!

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Fri 16 May 2014, 5:41 am
Stan Dane wrote:
greg parker wrote:What I will say is that it involves measurements between hands and of a particular object to see how well said object would fit. It does. 

I would name it, but I don't want to set off a round of posts on that item prior to Linda presenting what she has. Apart from that, she may have an Uncle Vito! 

I know everyone is waiting for it, but as with some of us, the hunt for more and more can at times overtake everything else.

What Linda brings to the table - apart from her hard work (and it really has been) on this - is a lot of enthusiasm and positivity.

She will be a very welcome addition to the ROKC forum.
You may want to use the hotline and give Sean Murphy a heads up here. As Prayer Man guru, he may want to follow this discussion. 

Just thinkin' 'n anticipatin'....
As I said to Linda... hopefully he glides through these parts at least occasionally.

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Fri 16 May 2014, 11:12 am
Lee's psychic transcript of lunchroom encounter rather effectively makes the point that the 30 seconds is way too long, even 15 seconds is too long. I guess that long an interval was needed to give Mrs. Reid time to get to the office.
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Fri 16 May 2014, 4:37 pm
Lee Farley,

On p. 15 of this thread you note that Truly did not even mention the elevators until the 23rd. I will repeat some information from a post that got deleted, as it is very significant, in my view.

What is important in all the newspaper stories that followed, for weeks and months, is not the changing lunchroom saga. It is the fact that the elevators do not get mentioned at all. It is my belief that this exposes a fundamental dishonesty about Truly. For a curious witness would make some kind of comment about the west elevator going down while Truly & Baker had gone up, and put it in the public domain. Had any schoolkid learned about this in the papers, he could have figured out that the assassins went down in the west.

I think that this hidden fact about the west elevator was what caused Truly's delay, in not mentioning the elevators until the 23rd.
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Fri 16 May 2014, 6:25 pm
All apologies for my inexact language in my first post, as regards placement of Truly, and my inexact interpretation of Truly's not-quite-clearly-recalling he met up with Baker in the front lobby. The key points are that from Truly's Point-of-View, in order to perceive details of Oswald's facial expression and hands and Baker poking his gun at Oswald's gut, Truly had to have been very near Baker and very near the lunchroom doorframe. And that T & B didn't meet up inside the warehouse, for example.

Too often the testimony is over-sifted to give meanings that aren't there. For instance, Baker apparently asked where the stairs were when inside the front lobby. Well, Truly could have replied, "Turn right, officer, they're two feet that way." A literal interpretation of Baker's testimony on this yields nonsense. So the researcher justifiably interprets Baker's question as really having been "How do I get to the roof?" or "Where are the stairs to the roof?"

But an essay helps clear up the inexact language made in posting. I have seen little or no feedback regarding exact portions of the essay that are in dispute. Only ridicule, which ReOpenKennedyCase excels at.

The tribe here is so far gone, so utterly brainwashed- it is as if NASA handed me a piece of moon rock, and I brought it to a ReOpenKennedyCaser, and said 'This is what the moon is made of." And that member would reply, "No way. It doesn't smell like cheese."

I'll be contacting a building contractor soon, maybe John Armstrong, to get a facility constructed in the Outback to house all you "green-cheesers". I've already enlisted the butterfly-net brigade to round you all up. Expect them next time you go food shopping.

Just doing my part to help make Earth safe and sane again.
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Fri 16 May 2014, 7:02 pm
The best way to make Earth sane again is to send the Tiger fucking cunt known as Richard Gilbride to the best psychiatric facility in the World. But I gravely fear "his" sick mind is incurable.
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Fri 16 May 2014, 7:05 pm
Richard Gilbride wrote:On p. 15 of this thread you note that Truly did not even mention the elevators until the 23rd. I will repeat some information from a post that got deleted, as it is very significant, in my view.


I'd be more than happy to delete it again.


Last edited by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 16 May 2014, 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fri 16 May 2014, 7:31 pm
Lee Farley,

The challenge for you will be to read through the bullet points again, then read Baker's 30-second estimate, and ask yourself what unspoken pregnant pauses occurred during that time in the lunchroom- that potentially stretch it to 35 or even 40 seconds. Because seen next to the bullet points, Baker's estimate is ballpark-flexible enough to allow the event (A & S walking by) to happen. No need to be constrained by the literal-exact import of testimony here- Baker didn't have a stopwatch with him.

I searched my files but couldn't find the original download of the 1st mention of the lunchroom incident being a hoax. The guy's name as I recall was Don Willis at McAdams' forum. Whatever became of him? I wonder whether he may have been a disinformation agent. If he was he sure got his job done.
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Fri 16 May 2014, 7:32 pm
Richard Gilbride wrote:

Too often the testimony is over-sifted to give meanings that aren't there. For instance, Baker apparently asked where the stairs were when inside the front lobby. Well, Truly could have replied, "Turn right, officer, they're two feet that way." A literal interpretation of Baker's testimony on this yields nonsense. So the researcher justifiably interprets Baker's question as really having been "How do I get to the roof?" or "Where are the stairs to the roof?"

Just doing my part to help make Earth safe and sane again.

I'll tell you something for nothing -- I haven't been this frustrated dealing with an individual for a very long time.  

How the fuck do you expect me gather meaning from testimony and statements other than reading them and judging the words written/spoken?  I am not going down your route and inventing things that weren't said.  This is becoming a complete waste of time.  It has been your methodology throughout this whole sorry saga.  You are inventing things and grasping at straws to maintain a position that you have welded yourself to like a barnacle.

Baker is on record many, many times that he entered the lobby and asked a group of people where the fucking stairs were.  He didn't ask where the stairs to the roof where.  He didn't ask where the stairs to sixth floor were.  He didn't ask where the stairs to Katmandu were.  He asked where the stairs were.

As soon as he walked through those doors into the TBSD lobby there were a fucking big set of stairs directly in front of him.  Their existence put his statements and testimony in doubt especially when there are a dozen other problems with what he said he did.

Your poker hand is utter shit and you have been caught bluffing -- you cannot accept you have lost your house and car.  But you were the one that upped the stakes with your chest beating and belittling rhetoric.  Insinuating that the doubters had nothing and all of the evidence supported your conclusions.  Unfortunately for you your evidence is slowly being shown up as pure fantasy -- where you believed you could get away with mixing fact and fiction without being called out on it.

You underestimated how far some of us would go to pick apart your invented narrative.  You have been caught lying about the evidence and what it says and now you are so desperate you have to resort to "reinterpreting" what was actually said during the alleged events because the testimony and statements do not support you.

Gilbride said: "So the researcher justifiably interprets Baker's question as really having been "How do I get to the roof?" or "Where are the stairs to the roof?'"


 :oops:   I'm embarrassed for you, I truly am.  This new methodology you have created for yourself is truly revolutionary and if adopted by the critical community we can all pack up and go home once we "reinterpret" all of the statements and testimony that we don't like.  

The Truly-Baker episode is rife with problems and the problems come from the contradictions that they themselves created and the slowly developing additions when they were interviewed on multiple occasions by different agencies.  Yet, you want the benefit of doubt to be given to Marrion Baker because in your judgment he was a upright cop of integrity.  Listen, there is a muppet over at Deep Doo-Doo Forum who only yesterday was espousing the integrity of Henry Fucking Wade after he met him whilst studying for his law degree.  So you'll excuse me if I don't fully buy into other people's assessment of character.

The Marrion Baker I see in interviews is a man who is embarrassed by saying what he is saying and the reason I believe he is embarrassed is because given the fact I have reviewed every word of his statements and testimony I know for a fact that he is having to lie.  Regardless of whether having to lie grated against his internal values doesn't matter -- once he was on script his values had been corrupted.

You need to go back to the drawing board.  Your narrative is nonsense.

The beginning point is to make sense of Truly's testimony concerning what time he was outside.  The next step is to to find verification for his crowd surfing from his position back to the steps and I'll give you a clue as to the only person who helped Truly out concerning his crowd surfing - their initials are MB.

Once you've established the above you need to work out where Truly caught Baker and the answer has to support him being within earshot to not only hear Baker's question about where the stairs were but was in place to immediately answer it.  You now have more opportunities to insert more "pregnant pauses."

Then you have to work through the slow appearance of the story of them checking the elevators.

Then you have much work to do on the timings of the lunchroom encounter because your current mathematics is just pure crud and for someone who enjoys waving their college degree around I'd expect you to be able to count.  

As Beowulf as already worked out; Mrs. Reid is the key to all of this.


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