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The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Albert Rossi on Sat 24 May 2014, 3:10 am

Here's another question, Goban:  why would he use the Imperial Reflex on such a mission, when it seems he possessed a Minox?


Possibility:  the Minox is only good for up-close minutiae, not for deep/wider angle shots?  (a real question ... I am not
knowledgable about cameras).


Last edited by Albert Rossi on Sat 24 May 2014, 3:17 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : additional consideration)

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Goban Saor on Sat 24 May 2014, 3:43 am

When I said ‘discreetly’, Albert, I was referring to the unobtrusive position of PM. Perhaps a Minox being a ‘spy’ camera would attract attention and negate this effect.

And your addendum is another reason, I suppose.
 
However, in the light of responses to it so far I accept that my convoluted hypothesis, unlike Greg’s explanation, hardly meets the Occam’s razor test and is probably too far-fetched to be realistic.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Stan Dane on Sat 24 May 2014, 4:20 am

Goban Saor wrote:It’s plausible in a way, Greg, but if he were intent merely on photographing the motorcade for his own personal reasons the PM position does not seem a good vantage point.
I think Prayer Man was in a great spot to take pictures of the motorcade. Can you see Oswald from the vantage point of the motorcade in this Wiegman still? You can see him very easy.
 


OK, flip it around 180 degrees and you can see that PM can see the motorcade very easy as well—he has a clean view of each car as it approaches and makes the turn onto Elm. When JFK passed by seconds earlier, he was on the side facing the TSBD building. PM could have snapped a series of pictures. And if anybody jostled around and got in his way momentarily, you do what any photographer does—you move a little one way or the other, reacquire your subject and take your picture.
 
Just like when people say the best shot opportunity from the sixth floor would have been when the Lincoln approached the TSBD on Houston St, I think PM was in a good, relatively unobstructed spot to take pictures.


Last edited by Stan Dane on Sat 24 May 2014, 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by beowulf on Sat 24 May 2014, 4:27 am

I think Prayer Man was in a great spot to take pictures of the motorcade

Agreed, its only in hindsight do we know that Abraham Zapruder had the best angle to watch the assassination. Just because PM wasn't in position to see the final head shot doesn't mean he had a bad vantage point to take an innocent photo.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Sat 24 May 2014, 4:40 am

I've said this earlier about the Imperial Reflex camera but it might be worth mentioning again. It is not a camera that was designed to be used at eye level. The viewfinder is on top and you need to look down from waist level to frame the shot. I know Lee mentioned you could raise it higher and I agree you could but if Oswald was a keen photographer he would have gotten into a better position IMHO if he was using the IR camera to avoid the crowd in front of him. That is of course if he took the IR. He had other cameras.



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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Stan Dane on Sat 24 May 2014, 4:43 am

One more thing. If PM was using the Imperial Reflex with the flip up viewfinder, it would be best to be standing in the shadows like he is to better see his subject. If he's farther out on the steps or by the curb, the glare of the sun would make it more difficult to find, see and precisely capture his subject. I remember how hard it was using my old VHS camcorder with that little viewer screen out in the direct sunlight.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Sat 24 May 2014, 4:50 am

Stan Dane wrote:One more thing. If PM was using the Imperial Reflex with the flip up viewfinder, it would be best to be standing in the shadows like he is to better see his subject. If he's farther out on the steps or by the curb, the glare of the sun would make it more difficult to find, see and precisely capture his subject. I remember how hard it was using my old VHS camcorder with that little viewer screen out in the direct sunlight.
Stan, the flip would negotiate the glare somewhat. It was considered to be an outdoor camera and a version of it was marked as The Official Camera for The Boys Scouts Of America.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by greg parker on Sat 24 May 2014, 6:22 am

Goban Saor wrote:It’s plausible in a way, Greg, but if he were intent merely on photographing the motorcade for his own personal reasons the PM position does not seem a good vantage point.
 
My hypothesis is a shot-in-the-dark attempt to reconcile various Oswald theories/roles.
 
If he was an expendable agent, for example, directing him to discreetly photograph suspicious activity in the proposed assassination location would meet a number of objectives.
 
As our friend Charles Drago said elsewhere recently, every intel op is designed to achieve at least two objectives.
"As with all such major operations, planning encapsulated looking for ways to gain secondary outcomes from the event." Lee Harvey Oswald's Cold War, p38 of pdf version

_________________
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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Sat 24 May 2014, 11:18 am

One of the reasons I don't believe Oswald owned an Imperial Reflex camera is because its a cheap piece of shit camera for an avid and keen photographer to own. Its no better than a brownie and even the lens are made of plastic as well as the body. Another reason I don't believe he owned it is the Walker photos. It was determined the photos were taken with HIS Imperial Reflex and I don't believe Oswald had anything to do with the Walker shooting or any of its planning. How do we explain that?  Its been mentioned before that Oswald owned better cameras to choose from and while I don't dismiss entirely that he went to Irving perhaps to get a camera and that might be what he is holding, I don't think it was THAT camera he was holding. Not from that vantage point with people in front of him and how it operates. It also makes sense to me that he might be holding a drink bottle which is a sensible option if he is having lunch at the time. I think the reason for his trip to Irving was give Marina the money he usually left her with but this is just my guess in trying to make sense of it all.
Marina's testimony about the BYP's is vague at best. She hardly remembers the incident or how she took the photos. Couldn't recall the camera or its colour. Robert Oswald holding on to the camera till Feb 1964 is also suspicious to me. That camera incriminates him in so many ways that I think it doubtful he ever owned it.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Stan Dane on Sat 24 May 2014, 11:53 am

If Prayer Man was indeed taking pictures, another question would be—regardless of the camera he was using—what happened to the camera and the film?

Still another question: was Prayer Man HARVEY, or was he LEE?

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by greg parker on Sat 24 May 2014, 12:30 pm

Stan Dane wrote:If Prayer Man was indeed taking pictures, another question would be—regardless of the camera he was using—what happened to the camera and the film?

Still another question: was Prayer Man HARVEY, or was he LEE?
I KNEW IT I KNEW IT! WE'VE BEEN INFILTRATED!!!! 


SOUND THE ALARM AND BRING OUT THE EMOTICONS!!!

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Stan Dane on Sat 24 May 2014, 1:46 pm

greg parker wrote:I KNEW IT I KNEW IT! WE'VE BEEN INFILTRATED!!!! 


SOUND THE ALARM AND BRING OUT THE EMOTICONS!!!

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Sat 24 May 2014, 5:21 pm

Paul Klein wrote:One of the reasons I don't believe Oswald owned an Imperial Reflex camera is because its a cheap piece of shit camera for an avid and keen photographer to own. Its no better than a brownie and even the lens are made of plastic as well as the body. Another reason I don't believe he owned it is the Walker photos. It was determined the photos were taken with HIS Imperial Reflex and I don't believe Oswald had anything to do with the Walker shooting or any of its planning. How do we explain that?  Its been mentioned before that Oswald owned better cameras to choose from and while I don't dismiss entirely that he went to Irving perhaps to get a camera and that might be what he is holding, I don't think it was THAT camera he was holding. Not from that vantage point with people in front of him and how it operates. It also makes sense to me that he might be holding a drink bottle which is a sensible option if he is having lunch at the time. I think the reason for his trip to Irving was give Marina the money he usually left her with but this is just my guess in trying to make sense of it all.
Marina's testimony about the BYP's is vague at best. She hardly remembers the incident or how she took the photos. Couldn't recall the camera or its colour. Robert Oswald holding on to the camera till Feb 1964 is also suspicious to me. That camera incriminates him in so many ways that I think it doubtful he ever owned it.

I think he owned it.

But I totally understand why you think he didn't, Paul.

It'll probably be an idea if we start a new thread and go through his photograph collection.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Sat 24 May 2014, 5:53 pm

Hello Goodbye wrote:
I think he owned it.

But I totally understand why you think he didn't, Paul.

It'll probably be an idea if we start a new thread and go through his photograph collection.
That sounds like a good idea, Lee. No point derailing this one. Ive got a few more things lined up on this that I did some work on a while ago, so I'll try and get it all back and see what happens. I even bid for an Imperial Reflex on ebay once. That's how fucked up I was. Very Happy
I'll start it early next week. Tonight I am hanging for the Madrid derby so I'll be off to bed soon.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Sat 24 May 2014, 6:00 pm

Paul Klein wrote:
Hello Goodbye wrote:
I think he owned it.

But I totally understand why you think he didn't, Paul.

It'll probably be an idea if we start a new thread and go through his photograph collection.
That sounds like a good idea, Lee. No point derailing this one. Ive got a few more things lined up on this that I did some work on a while ago, so I'll try and get it all back and see what happens. I even bid for an Imperial Reflex on ebay once. That's how fucked up I was. :D
I'll start it early next week. Tonight I am hanging for the Madrid derby so I'll be off to bed soon.

I don't mind starting it.  In the past Greg and I have had some fascinating conversations concerning what was allegedly in Oswald's photo collection.

I'll dig out the document that was used to take Marina through the collection by the FBI.

Madrid will win.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Sat 24 May 2014, 6:03 pm

Hello Goodbye wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:
Hello Goodbye wrote:
I think he owned it.

But I totally understand why you think he didn't, Paul.

It'll probably be an idea if we start a new thread and go through his photograph collection.
That sounds like a good idea, Lee. No point derailing this one. Ive got a few more things lined up on this that I did some work on a while ago, so I'll try and get it all back and see what happens. I even bid for an Imperial Reflex on ebay once. That's how fucked up I was. Very Happy
I'll start it early next week. Tonight I am hanging for the Madrid derby so I'll be off to bed soon.

I don't mind starting it.  In the past Greg and I have had some fascinating conversations concerning what was allegedly in Oswald's photo collection.

I'll dig out the document that was used to take Marina through the collection by the FBI.
Sounds good. Thanks mate.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Sat 24 May 2014, 6:04 pm

Paul Klein wrote:
Hello Goodbye wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:
Hello Goodbye wrote:
I think he owned it.

But I totally understand why you think he didn't, Paul.

It'll probably be an idea if we start a new thread and go through his photograph collection.
That sounds like a good idea, Lee. No point derailing this one. Ive got a few more things lined up on this that I did some work on a while ago, so I'll try and get it all back and see what happens. I even bid for an Imperial Reflex on ebay once. That's how fucked up I was. :D
I'll start it early next week. Tonight I am hanging for the Madrid derby so I'll be off to bed soon.

I don't mind starting it.  In the past Greg and I have had some fascinating conversations concerning what was allegedly in Oswald's photo collection.

I'll dig out the document that was used to take Marina through the collection by the FBI.
Sounds good. Thanks mate.

You a big football fan then,  Paul?

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Sat 24 May 2014, 6:13 pm

Hello Goodbye wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:
Hello Goodbye wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:
Hello Goodbye wrote:
I think he owned it.

But I totally understand why you think he didn't, Paul.

It'll probably be an idea if we start a new thread and go through his photograph collection.
That sounds like a good idea, Lee. No point derailing this one. Ive got a few more things lined up on this that I did some work on a while ago, so I'll try and get it all back and see what happens. I even bid for an Imperial Reflex on ebay once. That's how fucked up I was. Very Happy
I'll start it early next week. Tonight I am hanging for the Madrid derby so I'll be off to bed soon.

I don't mind starting it.  In the past Greg and I have had some fascinating conversations concerning what was allegedly in Oswald's photo collection.

I'll dig out the document that was used to take Marina through the collection by the FBI.
Sounds good. Thanks mate.

You a big football fan then,  Paul?
Huge. I love it. I always take a months holiday from work during a World Cup. Have done so since 1986. I am a Madrileño but I don't follow either of the sides in La Liga. I am an Athletic Bilbao supporter. In the EPL I follow the Hammers though there hasn't been much to follow with Big Sam in charge. I was hoping we'd get rid of him for next season but he have to put up with him again. I've got a soft spot for Liverpool because I grew up when they ruled and was hoping they wouldn't choke a month ago but they did. Are you an Everton or Liverpool diehard?

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Sat 24 May 2014, 6:37 pm

Paul Klein wrote:
Hello Goodbye wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:
Hello Goodbye wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:
Hello Goodbye wrote:
I think he owned it.

But I totally understand why you think he didn't, Paul.

It'll probably be an idea if we start a new thread and go through his photograph collection.
That sounds like a good idea, Lee. No point derailing this one. Ive got a few more things lined up on this that I did some work on a while ago, so I'll try and get it all back and see what happens. I even bid for an Imperial Reflex on ebay once. That's how fucked up I was. :D
I'll start it early next week. Tonight I am hanging for the Madrid derby so I'll be off to bed soon.

I don't mind starting it.  In the past Greg and I have had some fascinating conversations concerning what was allegedly in Oswald's photo collection.

I'll dig out the document that was used to take Marina through the collection by the FBI.
Sounds good. Thanks mate.

You a big football fan then,  Paul?
Huge. I love it. I always take a months holiday from work during a World Cup. Have done so since 1986. I am a Madrileño but I don't follow either of the sides in La Liga. I am an Athletic Bilbao supporter. In the EPL I follow the Hammers though there hasn't been much to follow with Big Sam in charge. I was hoping we'd get rid of him for next season but he have to put up with him again. I've got a soft spot for Liverpool because I grew up when they ruled and was hoping they wouldn't choke a month ago but they did. Are you an Everton or Liverpool diehard?

Well let's just say I was wearing a Man City shirt a few weeks ago and was in pleats of laughter.

Been going the game since I was 6 and from the age of 15 through to 28 I was a travelling Evertonian.  Home and away. Rain or shine.  My teenage years saw Everton's most successful period with Howard Kendall, but also had to live through the ban on English football teams in Europe after the Heysel disaster.  I also had to sit through the reign of Walter Smith which was completely depressing.

The redshite, as we affectionately call them, seem to think we are bitter about their success.  The reality is we just don't like them.

I owned a house just around the corner from Anfield that I lived in for about six years until my daughter was born.  One of my favourite pastimes used to take place on a Saturdays and Sundays during Liverpool home games.  From 9am onwards I would watch as Liverpool "fans" from Essex, Portsmouth, Edinburgh, Casablanca, Kiev, Tokyo, and the moon would pull up outside my house into a car space left by Stacy who had taken the car to work when she worked weekends.

From my window I'd watch as a car with five redshite would pull up and slowly manouver their car into place right outside my house.  They'd get out, go to the boot/trunk get their coats, scarves and flags out, go back to the car, get some other paraphernalia, lock their doors, check their windows, and just as they were about to walk up to the football ground I'd open the door and say:

"Move the fucking car, dick head."

They'd come back, open the doors, open the boot/trunk, put their scarves and flags back in, and drive off.

Then I'd wait ten minutes for the next car full of twats.

Good times...

Enjoy the match, Paul.  Athletico will beat them...

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Sat 24 May 2014, 6:45 pm

Hello Goodbye wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:
Hello Goodbye wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:
Hello Goodbye wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:
Hello Goodbye wrote:
I think he owned it.

But I totally understand why you think he didn't, Paul.

It'll probably be an idea if we start a new thread and go through his photograph collection.
That sounds like a good idea, Lee. No point derailing this one. Ive got a few more things lined up on this that I did some work on a while ago, so I'll try and get it all back and see what happens. I even bid for an Imperial Reflex on ebay once. That's how fucked up I was. Very Happy
I'll start it early next week. Tonight I am hanging for the Madrid derby so I'll be off to bed soon.

I don't mind starting it.  In the past Greg and I have had some fascinating conversations concerning what was allegedly in Oswald's photo collection.

I'll dig out the document that was used to take Marina through the collection by the FBI.
Sounds good. Thanks mate.

You a big football fan then,  Paul?
Huge. I love it. I always take a months holiday from work during a World Cup. Have done so since 1986. I am a Madrileño but I don't follow either of the sides in La Liga. I am an Athletic Bilbao supporter. In the EPL I follow the Hammers though there hasn't been much to follow with Big Sam in charge. I was hoping we'd get rid of him for next season but he have to put up with him again. I've got a soft spot for Liverpool because I grew up when they ruled and was hoping they wouldn't choke a month ago but they did. Are you an Everton or Liverpool diehard?

Well let's just say I was wearing a Man City shirt a few weeks ago and was in pleats of laughter.

Been going the game since I was 6 and from the age of 15 through to 28 I was a travelling Evertonian.  Home and away. Rain or shine.  My teenage years saw Everton's most successful period with Howard Kendall, but also had to live through the ban on English football teams in Europe after the Heysel disaster.  I also had to sit through the reign of Walter Smith which was completely depressing.

The redshite, as we affectionately call them, seem to think we are bitter about their success.  The reality is we just don't like them.

I owned a house just around the corner from Anfield that I lived in for about six years until my daughter was born.  One of my favourite pastimes used to take place on a Saturdays and Sundays during Liverpool home games.  From 9am onwards I would watch as Liverpool "fans" from Essex, Portsmouth, Edinburgh, Casablanca, Kiev, Tokyo, and the moon would pull up outside my house into a car space left by Stacy who had taken the car to work when she worked weekends.

From my window I'd watch as a car with five redshite would pull up and slowly manouver their car into place right outside my house.  They'd get out, go to the boot/trunk get their coats, scarves and flags out, go back to the car, get some other paraphernalia, lock their doors, check their windows, and just as they were about to walk up to the football ground I'd open the door and say:

"Move the fucking car, dick head."

They'd come back, open the doors, open the boot/trunk, put their scarves and flags back in, and drive off.

Then I'd wait ten minutes for the next car full of twats.

Good times...

Enjoy the match, Paul.  Athletico will beat them...
 Very Happy I am surprised you're still alive. I won't mind if Real lose but my son will. Good night.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Colin Crow on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 11:47 pm

I have had no reply from the DMN regarding the Kent Biffle report that Oswald was seen on the first floor by Truly and Baker. He does appear on LinkedIn. If anyone has an account and he has an email I would be happy to email him directly to ask if he remembers the source of that info. Just get the email address to me.

Meanwhile it is mentioned briefly in this interview on youtube.


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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Terry W. Martin on Tue 03 Jun 2014, 4:35 am

Colin,

I am on LinkedIn but it does not show me any email for Kent. It has a place to send him a note via LinkedIn.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by greg parker on Mon 09 Jun 2014, 9:10 am

Richard's pro 2nd floor lunch-room encounter piece is now up in a more readable format together with the rebuttal. Click on square at bottom right to get full screen.

To me, it is a bit telling that it takes 13 pages including diagrams with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against the deniers to make the case. and only 3 pages to demolish it.

I cannot tell a lie, Allen Redfern put that rebuttal under that garbage.
http://www.reopenkennedycase.net/the-2nd-floor-lunch-room-encounter-pro-and-con.html

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 09 Jun 2014, 9:36 am

greg parker wrote:Richard's pro 2nd floor lunch-room encounter piece is now up in a more readable format together with the rebuttal. Click on square at bottom right to get full screen.

To me, it is a bit telling that it takes 13 pages including diagrams with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against the deniers to make the case. and only 3 pages to demolish it.

I cannot tell a lie, Allen Redfern put that rebuttal under that garbage.
http://www.reopenkennedycase.net/the-2nd-floor-lunch-room-encounter-pro-and-con.html
Redfern's Razor (or how to stuff a tiger in three easy steps).

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Colin Crow on Mon 09 Jun 2014, 12:58 pm

Response to Richards article.

If the girls left about 10 seconds after the last shot, they would most likely be at the top of the 4th floor stairs about the time a descending Oswald would have to be starting his descent. Therefore there would be about 2 floors separation and thus Richard's assertion is not correct. The descent by Adams and Styles soon after the shots does not in itself disprove the WC assertion of Oswald as 6th floor assassin.

Richard states there is a formal claim by Garner that the girls left before Baker and Truly appeared. The basis of this is the Stroud document and more recently, conversations between Garner and author Barry Ernest. We also have some indications from that this was the case, from Adams WC testimony and her later claim that the her sighting of Lovelady and Shelley did not occur. Styles confusion about the timing seems to have been laid to rest in a recent conversation with 
Ernest. It is clear that the WC should have obtained more information from Garner and the other women who remained on the 4th floor and subsequently moved to the west windows of the 4th floor of the TSBD after the shots. It should have been established whether they would have been in a position to see their fleeing assassin. Unfortunately, just as they failed to explain the non-sighting of Oswald by Dougherty, the WC failed to do so. In summary, faced with the girls either entering the stairs before Baker and Truly or after, the weight of evidence suggests the former occurred.

B&T and A&S did not report seeing each other and so we are faced with considering the possibilities that would allow for that circumstance. It would appear that there are three possible scenarios that could explain how this might occur.

1. The girls descended the 4 floors via the stairs and exited the back door before B&T were in a position near Shelley's office, just past the will call door. At this point the girls would be visible to B&T. An estimate of the minimum time after the shots for A&S to exit the building would be about one minute. It is estimated that Baker reached the steps of the building about 22 seconds after the last shot. Truly claimed he followed the officer and caught him near the entrance. After minimal discussion Truly led the way towards the NW stairway, one could reasonably assume this occurred no more than 30 seconds after the last shot from the evidence provided by Baker and Truly about the brevity of the interaction. The men then moved at a "fair trot" to the west elevator, apart from a pause at the will call door. The distance from the entrance to the point where A&S would be visible is about 50 feet a distance covered in about 6 seconds at a "fair jog". Without the stuck door at the will call counter we have accounted for just 36 seconds. Obviously the door did not delay them for 20 seconds or more. It would appear that in this scenario that there is another delay in their journey that was not reported. One that meant that B&T did not get to a position just past the will call counter until about one minute after the last shot. Was this an early interaction with someone else at the entrance (PM?) by Baker. Was Baker's "do you work here" initially to Oswald just inside the entrance in order to find someone who knew how to get to the roof. Perhaps a stunned Oswald, sipping a coke, who has moved inside the glass doors is then joined by Truly who confirms Oswald is an employee and asks Baker what he needs. Truly did not think the shots came from the TSBD, he had no way of knowing what Baker needed at that point. It is interesting that in the two official recreation times conducted there is a 15 second differential. A 90 second sighting of Oswald in the lunchroom would have been preferable to the WC. What was left out for the 75 second version, the one that makes an A&S encounter unavoidable?

In summary, an early descent by A&S means that there was a unreported delay in the official version of the movements of B&T, one that occurred between Truly encountering Baker and their pause at the will call counter.

2. The theory that Richard proposed to explain the movements is that the girls crossed the second floor landing while B&T were distracted with Oswald in the lunchroom. In this scenario the quicker recreation time for B&T can be used as we have no need for a 15 second delay.  Remembering that the WC recreations were timed from the first shot, the faster time for sighting Oswald is reduced from 75 to about 67 seconds after the last shot. If we add a few seconds for Baker to move to the lunchroom doorway and call Oswald we can assume that the girls had to pass the landing some time after 70 seconds after the last shot. Now we are presented with a delay in their descent. In scenario 1 they pass the second floor landing about 40 seconds after the last shot. Now we have them delayed by about 30 seconds before descending or travelling a longer route. There are other logistical problems with this scenario in that it is hard to believe the whole encounter as described took more than 10-15 seconds. Truly was likely further up the stairway than he remembers and at a point where the girls might have to be near the top of the 3rd floor landing when Truly turns and goes to investigate. There is also an assumption that the men do not hear the girls running down the stairs and crossing the landing and that the girls do not notice the partially open door and part of Truly.

In summary, this scenario satisfies the non-sighting of A&S by B&T with a more realistic "WC timing" for B&T. The timing is tight and it requires a number of assumptions regarding the delay in A&S descending and them not being heard by B&T. Obviously in this scenario Oswald the shooter has to get to the 4th floor stairs just before the girls and should have been either seen as they approached the stairs or heard descending the staircase.

3. B&T took an alternate route. They went up the stairs at the front of the building to the second floor and crossed the office area. This scenario satisfies the requirement for non-sighting between B&T and A&S and overcomes the logistical problems of Baker's initial sighting of Oswald in the door window. It should be noted that if Baker was just inside the main doors to the TSBD the front staircase would not necessarily be visible to Baker at that position.

Response to Alan.

In response to Alan's rebuttal of Richard's article I would offer the following. I do not think that Oswald as PM and being encountered by B&T in the lunchroom are mutually exclusive events. If Oswald was initially encountered by Baker in the entrance it is possible for him to have taken the front stairs and have crossed the second floor to the lunchroom to be sighted by Baker. This is made possible by the delays at the will call counter and elevators by B&T. It should be noted that Geneva Hine moved to the corridor area in the minute or so after the shots and someone crossing the office area would not necessarily be visible to her. The main problem with this scenario is understanding why Oswald would choose to go to the second floor and the lunchroom. Just because we can't understand why does not preclude the event from occurring. This scenario would also require an added delay in B&T's movement to satisfy the non-sighting of A&S as proposed earlier.

Oswald's recollection of Jarman and Norman did not necessarily require them to be in the domino room. The statement was that they "passed through", as there is only one door to the small domino room, I believe he sighted them as they "passed by" the room at the rear of the TSBD on their way to the elevators. They were seen through the domino room window and would not be expected to have seen Oswald.

Obviously Carolyn's sighting of Oswald in either the second floor lunchroom or near the first floor entrance at any time between 12.15 and 12.25 is significant. Arnold Rowland's sighting of a 6th floor gunman at 12.15 required the WC to clarify her recollection as if true it implies at least another person handled the rifle in the 15 minutes before the shots. Similarly the "out front with Bill Shelley" comment by Oswald is interesting, as a 6th floor Oswald would have no way of determining Shelley's whereabouts prior to the shooting. I agree that there is not other TSBD employee, apart from Oswald, who is a candidate for PM.

At the end of the day we are again left with an official story that was based on an incomplete investigation. The official version is unsupported by their own reports when accumulated. It is clear that the official version was "massaged" over time and required certain events to be moved in time or not further questioned and excluded. It seems clear that the events at the entrance of the TSBD, leading to a second floor lunchroom encounter required a significant modification in some way within the first 24 hours.

Colin Crow

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

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