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The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 09 Jun 2014, 3:35 pm

Nice review Colin. Very helpful. I haven't said this before but it's great to have you here. You add a lot to the discussions.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Colin Crow on Mon 09 Jun 2014, 5:12 pm

Many thanks Stan. I have been preparing a timeline using the TSBD floor maps with likely movements of key witnesses for the first few minutes after the shots. It's a best guess situation but does show some interesting points. Some of those were used above. When complete I'll post for comments.

One thing that is obvious is that if the WC version is correct the west elevator was descending in the time B&T were ascending. The time of motion was about 50 seconds.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 10 Jun 2014, 2:28 am

I'm curious. Is it safe to infer that the majority opinion here is that the second floor encounter story didn't happen as claimed by the Warren Commission? That another scenario more likely occurred, be it one of the alternatives put forth by Colin and others?
 
Our prime directive here, while crystal clear to others perhaps, has only recently come into focus for me: reopen the Kennedy case!
 
That's a big fat "duh," I know, but I came here with my thinking clouded. Terry and others have helped me strip away a lot of the all of gloss and complex baggage that's been added to this thing that makes it damn near impossible to solve, i.e., incredibly complex plots involving scores of agencies and organizations with bazillions of people over decades and centuries. The real question should be Bertrand Russell's point #4: Who killed President Kennedy? Solve the crime, not world hunger or what somebody's ancestor did. As Carmine regularly points out, use the primary evidence.
 
So if our primary goal here is to reopen the Kennedy case, then we are saying the current case is inadequate and deficient. That goes without saying. So we point out the inconsistencies, irregularities and outright lies while offering more plausible hypotheses that better fit the evidence.
 
Is the second floor encounter one such example of this? We have no confidence in the WC official story and the second floor encounter is by extension one part of that story, so we have no confidence in it either?
 
If so, this might be a core belief of the ROKC forum. Not that everyone thinks alike here (heaven forbid) but that there are common beliefs that hold this particular group together, while allowing for wide differences of opinion on the alternatives.
 
Just thinking out loud.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by beowulf on Tue 10 Jun 2014, 3:54 am

B&T and A&S did not report seeing each other and so we are faced with considering the possibilities that would allow for that circumstance.

We don't actually need a scenario that allows for that circumstance. Remember, Sandra Styles said (in an email to Sean Murphy), "when we got downstairs, the police were there".  How long was the interval between Baker entering the TSBD and the next police officer entering the building? 
Coming down on an interior stairway, "when we got downstairs" would be when A&S reached the ground floor.  Unless A&S delayed their 4th floor departure long enough for the second responder to get inside the TSBD, Styles can only mean she saw Officer Baker on the ground floor.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Terry W. Martin on Tue 10 Jun 2014, 6:10 am

Stan Dane wrote:I'm curious. Is it safe to infer that the majority opinion here is that the second floor encounter story didn't happen as claimed by the Warren Commission? That another scenario more likely occurred, be it one of the alternatives put forth by Colin and others?

I don't know if any survey has been made on the subject but it seems a few people are of the opinion that such an encounter occurred but after Lee had gone back up to the second floor after the shooting.

Personally, I don't think ANY encounter occurred on the second floor and I have serious doubts about someone on the fourth floor either. But I also think the eyewitnesses out front who "saw a shooter" in the sixth floor window either confused the floors or saw something they merely thought was a rifle. But that's just me and I am sure others have different interpretations on these other points.

Most present here, I believe, think the second floor encounter was created out of thin air to get Oswald off the ground floor.
But I could be wrong in that presumption.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Tue 10 Jun 2014, 7:28 am

terlin wrote:
Stan Dane wrote:I'm curious. Is it safe to infer that the majority opinion here is that the second floor encounter story didn't happen as claimed by the Warren Commission? That another scenario more likely occurred, be it one of the alternatives put forth by Colin and others?

I don't know if any survey has been made on the subject but it seems a few people are of the opinion that such an encounter occurred but after Lee had gone back up to the second floor after the shooting.

Personally, I don't think ANY encounter occurred on the second floor and I have serious doubts about someone on the fourth floor either. But I also think the eyewitnesses out front who "saw a shooter" in the sixth floor window either confused the floors or saw something they merely thought was a rifle. But that's just me and I am sure others have different interpretations on these other points.

Most present here, I believe, think the second floor encounter was created out of thin air to get Oswald off the ground floor.
But I could be wrong in that presumption.
It now looks that way to me after PM was discovered. Before, I just didn't believe it because it appeared too contrived. Why Baker would notice an unarmed employee on the 2nd floor while he was rushing up to the roof to find the shooter, was never believable to me. The same as Bledsoe, of all people, happening to notice him on the bus and Tippit inexplicably pulling him up for no good reason. Not to mention Brewer calling the cops because "He just looked funny" to him.
The whole thing smells like bullshit.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Redfern on Tue 10 Jun 2014, 7:36 am

Colin Crow wrote:
Response to Alan.

In response to Alan's rebuttal of Richard's article I would offer the following. I do not think that Oswald as PM and being encountered by B&T in the lunchroom are mutually exclusive events. If Oswald was initially encountered by Baker in the entrance it is possible for him to have taken the front stairs and have crossed the second floor to the lunchroom to be sighted by Baker. This is made possible by the delays at the will call counter and elevators by B&T. It should be noted that Geneva Hine moved to the corridor area in the minute or so after the shots and someone crossing the office area would not necessarily be visible to her. The main problem with this scenario is understanding why Oswald would choose to go to the second floor and the lunchroom. Just because we can't understand why does not preclude the event from occurring. This scenario would also require an added delay in B&T's movement to satisfy the non-sighting of A&S as proposed earlier.

Oswald's recollection of Jarman and Norman did not necessarily require them to be in the domino room. The statement was that they "passed through", as there is only one door to the small domino room, I believe he sighted them as they "passed by" the room at the rear of the TSBD on their way to the elevators. They were seen through the domino room window and would not be expected to have seen Oswald.

Obviously Carolyn's sighting of Oswald in either the second floor lunchroom or near the first floor entrance at any time between 12.15 and 12.25 is significant. Arnold Rowland's sighting of a 6th floor gunman at 12.15 required the WC to clarify her recollection as if true it implies at least another person handled the rifle in the 15 minutes before the shots. Similarly the "out front with Bill Shelley" comment by Oswald is interesting, as a 6th floor Oswald would have no way of determining Shelley's whereabouts prior to the shooting. I agree that there is not other TSBD employee, apart from Oswald, who is a candidate for PM.

At the end of the day we are again left with an official story that was based on an incomplete investigation. The official version is unsupported by their own reports when accumulated. It is clear that the official version was "massaged" over time and required certain events to be moved in time or not further questioned and excluded. It seems clear that the events at the entrance of the TSBD, leading to a second floor lunchroom encounter required a significant modification in some way within the first 24 hours.
Colin,

The way I'm looking at this is in terms of probability. While it might have been theoretically possible for Oswald to have rushed up the front stairs, across the second-floor and into the lunchroom before Baker and Truly arrived, it is highly unlikely.

If he could have made the second-floor before them, then it could be argued he might be the suspect walking away from the third- or fourth-floor stairway and be the man described in Baker's affidavit. We could also include a 'Harvey in the lunchroom/Lee at the entrance'-type solution but this verges on fantasy.

If Baker saw Oswald twice in two different locations within a short space of time, with the first sighting obviously eliminating him as a suspect, then the police officer was still party to a grotesque charade.


I believe the SFLE was hastily concocted to 'prove' Oswald's guilt.

The main difficulty I have is in working out why DPD and the FBI didn't place the Oswald encounter on the third- or fourth-floor stairway, thus matching Baker's affidavit and making it seem more likely he was the assassin.

The conventional answer seems to be that it would remove some of the 'guilt' felt by Baker for Tippit's death but I wonder if it had more to do with protecting Roy Truly from suspicion.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Tue 10 Jun 2014, 7:48 am

Stan Dane wrote:Is it safe to infer that the majority opinion here is that the second floor encounter story didn't happen as claimed by the Warren Commission?


I sure don't think it happened that way, Stan.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by gerrrycam on Tue 10 Jun 2014, 12:06 pm

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2013_08_01_archive.html
 Timeline:
12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD. 1
12:00 – 12:10: (estimated time) Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?) 2
12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes before 12:15 3
12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the1st floor Lunch Room 4
12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor West Window (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was "colored" hanging out of East corner window5
12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving Dr.Pepper bottle and partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one) 6
12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor (no rifle visible at this time). (w/m, early30's, slender, 165-75, light clothing) 7
12:20- 12:25: Carolyn Arnold looks through glass door and sees Oswald inside on 1st floor near front of TSBD 8
12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two 
12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, what, glasses, tan sport coat in 2nd window from East corner, 6th floor. 10 
12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor SE corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat) 11
12:29 Robert Edwards see w/m in 6th floor SE corner window, light colored shirt, short sleeve, open neck, possibly thin 12 
12:29 Ronald Fischer sees Man in 5th floor "right corner" window, man was laying down,could only see head, light headed and open neck shirt, man was in his twenties (Fischer will later change floor to 6th and shots from 4 to 3.) 13
12:29 – 12:30: Geneva Hine notes the lights are out on her phone system as motorcade approaches TSBD. 14

12: 30 Oswald said he was on the first floor at the time of the shooting then went up to the second floor to get a coke. 

12:30 "Prayer Man" standing on top of the TSBD front stairs by the glass door, Frazer also says he is located there, with William Shelley and Lovelady on the steps below him. 

12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo.
12:30: Amos Euins sees Blackman with rifle in 6th floor SE corner window (later changed to white man) 15 This man firing the rifle also has white shirt and bald spot on top of head. 
12:30: Howard Brennan sees white man w white shirt and Rifle in 6th floor SE corner window 16
12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet west of West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears one shot. 17
12:30: Dillard Photo taken 3-15 seconds after shots shows Norman and Williams in SE 5th floor corner windows (and possibly Jarman inthe 4th window from the SE corner). They say they run to West Window after shots. 18
12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one). 19
12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) 20
12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, runs past "Prayer Man" and goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley and Lovelady according to Adams) 21
12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side). 22
12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. 21
12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting. 22
12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand. 23
12:32 – 12:33 Deputy Roger Craig arrests a woman in her early thirties attempting to drive out of a private railyard parking lot. She was in a brown 1962 or 1963 Chevrolet . Craig turns her over to Deputy Sheriff Lummy Lewis. 24
12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away from the TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon 10
12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit) 25
12:33– 12:34: Officer Barnett moves from Back of TSBD to guard the Front entrance . 22
12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston. 26
12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens. 27
12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 4th or 5th floor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing 28 They take the East Elevator to the seventh floor and find nothing, return to fourth floor where Baker reports to Inspector Sawyer, the senior Dallas Police Department officer in the building. 
12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Vickery and Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters " some men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. 29
12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear of the TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an "unknown DPD Detective" (?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney and Co. on the 6th floor 30
12:34– 12:35:From across the street court clerk Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing by boxes on 6th floor of TSBD. 31
12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th flloor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor. 29
12:34: Inspector Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4th floor32
12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD 33
12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD 34
12:36– 12:37: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "some Secret Service Agents".35
12:37: Sawyer retrurns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post. 32
12:40 – 12:45: Dep. Craig hears whistle. Sees light green Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt, runs down slope and gets inside. The Driver of the vehicle was husky latin, dark wavy hair, tan windbreaker jacket. Craig runs over to report this to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit") 24
12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 (Winchester Rifle on Channel 2) 36
12:50 – 12:55: SSA Forest Sorrels returns from Parkland Hospital to the rear entrance of the TSBD and enters the building with no one checking his ID, the first genuine SS Agent to arrive on the scene. 37
12:58: Captain Fritz arrives at front entrance of TSBD 38
12:58: Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz, who is standing in front of TSBD (After leaving the 7thfloor,Mooney, Vickery, and Webster went down to 6th floor, where Mooney discovered SE corner window "sniper lair", empty shells, chicken remnants and soda.. 39
1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle they idenitfy as a 7.65 Mauser, concealed between boxes on the 6th floor40
1:22 Truly tells DPD Capt. Lumpkin that one of his men - Oswald is missing. Lumplin confers privately with two or three other senior DPD officers and then escorts Truly up to the Sixth Floor where they interupt Capt. Fritz examining the rifle and Lumpkin tells Fritz that Truly has something important to tell Fritz, and Truly tells Frtiz about the missing employee - Oswald, and give Fritz Oswald's address at Mrs. Paine's home in Irving. Fritz then walks across the street to Sheriff Decker's office where they confer privately before Fritz returns to his DPD office, where Oswald, under arrest, is waiting for him, having been arrested in the Tippit shooting. 

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Colin Crow on Tue 10 Jun 2014, 6:07 pm

beowulf wrote:B&T and A&S did not report seeing each other and so we are faced with considering the possibilities that would allow for that circumstance.

We don't actually need a scenario that allows for that circumstance. Remember, Sandra Styles said (in an email to Sean Murphy), "when we got downstairs, the police were there".  How long was the interval between Baker entering the TSBD and the next police officer entering the building? 
Coming down on an interior stairway, "when we got downstairs" would be when A&S reached the ground floor.  Unless A&S delayed their 4th floor departure long enough for the second responder to get inside the TSBD, Styles can only mean she saw Officer Baker on the ground floor.
The was certainly a policeman reported by Adams as they exited the building. I believe this was Barnett. Also they were stopped by a policeman as they moved westward near the tracks close to the TSBD. This could also satisfy the statement by Styles. It would be difficult for Styles to notice Baker and not Truly and Adams to notice neither. If would also be difficult to understand how B&T failed to see either woman.

Ernest addresses the communications between Styles and Sean in this post.

http://mysite.verizon.net/restu5kb/id24.html

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Tue 10 Jun 2014, 6:33 pm

From Bill Kelly's Timeline: "1:22 Truly tells DPD Capt. Lumpkin that one of his men - Oswald is missing. Lumplin confers privately with two or three other senior DPD officers and then escorts Truly up to the Sixth Floor where they interupt Capt. Fritz examining the rifle and Lumpkin tells Fritz that Truly has something important to tell Fritz, and Truly tells Frtiz about the missing employee - Oswald, and give Fritz Oswald's address at Mrs. Paine's home in Irving. Fritz then walks across the street to Sheriff Decker's office where they confer privately before Fritz returns to his DPD office, where Oswald, under arrest, is waiting for him, having been arrested in the Tippit shooting."


The above timing of the news reaching Will Fritz that Oswald was missing from Roy Truly is not as cut and dried as is made out here. Truly's testified that he noticed Oswald was the only employee absent at the [fictional] roll call as soon as he descended from the roof and that he went immediately to tell Captain Fritz. The timeframe for Truly calling the other warehouse where the personnel department was located occurred 10 minutes after the assassination and the call was to get the personal details from Oswald's TSBD file. If this is accurate then Truly did this at 12:40pm. Therefore, a 1:22pm timeframe for Truly informing Lumpkin of the missing man means that Truly hung onto this information for 32 minutes before informing Fritz.

The Warren Commission lawyers during Roy Truly's testimony eventually told him what time he informed Fritz of the missing Oswald because they linked this event to the discovery of the rifle. Therefore it was time-stamped at around 1:22pm and they completely ignored Truly testifying to the times he gave for getting Oswald's personal information from the Personnel Department and didn't bother, once the 1:22pm timestamp was officially mandated, to ask Truly why he hung onto the information for more than half an hour.

In summary we now officially have Truly hanging onto this information for 32 minutes and we also have Fritz doing nothing with it even though he said he was going to go over to Irving personally to visit the address that was on Oswald's records.


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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Colin Crow on Tue 10 Jun 2014, 7:22 pm

My response in bold to the timeline posted earlier.

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD. 1


Piper conversed with Oswald on the first floor “around noon”. Note that Shelley saw Oswald near the phone on the first floor about 11.50. Presumably this was just after Shelley vacated the 6th floor.


12:00 – 12:10: (estimated time) Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?) 2


This time is not consistent with the “final version” of events. Jarman and Norman left the front of the building sometime around 12.20. Williams left the 6th floor after hearing them downstairs and joined them close to 12.25. Williams reported versions are inconsistent. He claimed to have stayed only a few minutes and up to 15. He also claimed to take the stairs down and both east and west elevators. The final version has him taking the east elevator down. Also Norman on more than one occasion said he was with them when they all went to the 5th floor. One thing that the official version cannot explain is how Williams did not notice the gunman Rowland saw in the SW window at 12.15. Williams is one of the least reliable witnesses IMO (along with Givens). If he did what the official version claimed it was likely between 12.10-12.20 or so. I wonder if it was really Givens who was eating the chicken on the 6th (and seen by Rowland in the SN) and for some reason decided to vacate the building about 12.20. Was he scared of something he saw? This may have morphed into the “cigarette retrieval” story that eventuated late in the piece in an attempt to implicate Oswald by placing him on the 6th floor after the Piper sighting.


12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes before 12:15 3


12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the1st floor Lunch Room 4


Certainly either one or both of these sightings required further investigation given Rowland’s gunman sighting at 12.15.


12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor West Window (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was "colored" hanging out of East corner window) 5


12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving Dr.Pepper bottle and partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one) 6


More likely closer to 12.25 given the timestamp of Jarman and Norman’s movements. (see above).


12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor (no rifle visible at this time). (w/m, early30's, slender, 165-75, light clothing) 7


Brennan got into position on the wall later than this from memory, maybe closer to 12.25.


12:20- 12:25: Carolyn Arnold looks through glass door and sees Oswald inside on 1st floor near front of TSBD 8


12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two 9


12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, what, glasses, tan sport coat in 2nd window from East corner, 6th floor. 10


12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor SE corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat) 11


12:29 Robert Edwards see w/m in 6th floor SE corner window, light colored shirt, short sleeve, open neck, possibly thin 12


12:29 Ronald Fischer sees Man in 5th floor "right corner" window, man was laying down,could only see head, light headed and open neck shirt, man was in his twenties (Fischer will later change floor to 6th and shots from 4 to 3.) 13


12:29 – 12:30: Geneva Hine notes the lights are out on her phone system as motorcade approaches TSBD. 14
This does not mean the power was cut to the elevators or building lights at this time. See below.


 
12: 30 Oswald said he was on the first floor at the time of the shooting then went up to the second floor to get a coke.


 
12:30 "Prayer Man" standing on top of the TSBD front stairs by the glass door, Frazer also says he is located there, with William Shelley and Lovelady on the steps below him.


Could this be juxtaposed with the event above? Would Oswald as PM go to the lunchroom vicinity immediately after the shots for a coke? Maybe some other reason?


12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo.


12:30: Amos Euins sees Blackman with rifle in 6th floor SE corner window (later changed to white man) 15 This man firing the rifle also has white shirt and bald spot on top of head.


12:30: Howard Brennan sees white man w white shirt and Rifle in 6th floor SE corner window 16


I do believe Brennan thought the gunman wore white or light clothing “with long sleeves”.


12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet west of West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears one shot. 17


Clearly someone who required to be investigated further as we all know (as did the WC via the Eisenberg memo)


12:30: Dillard Photo taken 3-15 seconds after shots shows Norman and Williams in SE 5th floor corner windows (and possibly Jarman inthe 4th window from the SE corner). They say they run to West Window after shots. 18


12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one). 19


May have been out the Back door by 12.31.


12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) 20


I think this must be after 12.31. No mention of Baker and Truly. Who knows how long after.


12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, runs past "Prayer Man" and goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley and Lovelady according to Adams) 21


Unlikely to be Shelley and Lovelady unless they immediately went into the building via the western door and didn’t linger by the tracks. If not them I know of no other white TSBD employees who could be candidates. Surely should have been investigated further.


12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side). 22


Likely the police officer seen by Adams as she exited the TSBD. Barnett does not run all the way to the back of the TSBD but attempts o cover cack and eastern side.


12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. 21


12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting. 22


12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand. 23


The official version places this precisely at 12.32. Three consistent recreations. Howlett’s sniper recreations, 2 attempts with 5% variation. Compare to Baker and Truly who had only 2 attempts with 20% variation. The mysterious 15 second gap.


12:32 – 12:33 Deputy Roger Craig arrests a woman in her early thirties attempting to drive out of a private railyard parking lot. She was in a brown 1962 or 1963 Chevrolet . Craig turns her over to Deputy Sheriff Lummy Lewis. 24


12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away from the TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon 10


12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit) 25


12:33– 12:34: Officer Barnett moves from Back of TSBD to guard the Front entrance . 22


12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston. 26


12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens. 27


It seems the elevator would take about 40 seconds from 5 to 1. He claimed to have talked to Piper on the first floor. This was not confirmed by Piper.


12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 4th or 5th floor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing 28 They take the East Elevator to the seventh floor and find nothing, return to fourth floor where Baker reports to Inspector Sawyer, the senior Dallas Police Department officer in the building.


The east elevator was on the 5th floor. Noticed by Truly, who failed to notice the west elevator moving while he ascended the 3rd and 4th floors. The employees claimed you could hear the elevator from across the open floor if you were listening for the boss. Apparently quiet in the stairwell…strange. Truly also claimed to have seen Dougherty collecting stock on the 5th floor on the way down.


12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Vickery and Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters " some men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. 29


Note the timing of loss of power to the elevators. Many people claim the power was off earlier than this. The passenger elevator also affected.

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what was Truly was trying to hide?

Post by Terry W. Martin on Sat 14 Jun 2014, 3:46 am

Several here have hinted that the whole second floor encounter was created to protect Truly.

Allen Redfern said (top of p.33 of this thread):
The main difficulty I have is in working out why DPD and the FBI didn't place the Oswald encounter on the third- or fourth-floor stairway, thus matching Baker's affidavit and making it seem more likely he was the assassin.

The conventional answer seems to be that it would remove some of the 'guilt' felt by Baker for Tippit's death but I wonder if it had more to do with protecting Roy Truly from suspicion.

Most people seem to think Truly was involved some way in the assassination. Representative of this theme is found in the thread "Why did Roy Truly bring a rifle to work?" (at http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7214)
[the thread is from 2006 and on this thread Greg Parker happens to mention that Warren Caster (who brought in the rifles rather than Truly) may have been related to Berry Caster who worked with Bill Randle (bro-in-law of Buell Frazier)]
Unlike quite a few researchers, Greg seems to hone in on the genealogical connections... Berry is an unusual first name but not unique as my grandfather used that same spelling. But he was Texan so maybe it is a Texas kinda thing.

A websearch shows the only other mention of Berry Caster is from our own backyard:
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t24-buell-wesley-frazier-linnie-mae-and-bill-randle

Greg brings out a lot of the strange connections between Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle, and the goings on at the TSBD. Even if Linnie Mae did/did not work there.

Exactly what the connection may be has yet to be determined.

Back to Truly, it is easy to think he was involved in the assassination but the only connection I can see between the TSBD and JFK's killing is Oswald and the fact that he worked in the building. Given that Oswald was innocent, the connection with the TSBD and the assassination skates on very thin ice.

Once you remove Oswald from the equation, you still have Truly acting strangely and it has no apparent connection to the assassination, given the above removal of Oswald from the equation. Many claim there would still have been a shooter on the sixth floor so Truly might have been involved but I have not yet seen anything conclusive on that issue.

So, if Truly was not trying to cover up a connection with JFK is it possible he was merely trying to cover up a connection to Oswald?

And what might that connection be?

As with the Tippit killing, proximity between crimes does not necessarily mean they are related.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Sat 14 Jun 2014, 7:46 pm

Caster's grandfather, father, father's siblings, etc,:
(His name was Benny J., not Berry J.....)

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=19683503

Proof of the Berry/Benny name mix up.:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1186.msg315689.html#msg315689

....and links to Warren D Caster obit, his wife's obit, and his brother's obit.:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7214&p=235504

I find no near, blood relationship between Benny and Warren Caster.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Terry W. Martin on Sat 14 Jun 2014, 9:17 pm

Tom Scully wrote:Caster's grandfather, father, father's siblings, etc,:
(His name was Benny J., not Berry J.....)

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=19683503

Proof of the Berry/Benny name mix up.:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1186.msg315689.html#msg315689

....and links to Warren D Caster obit, his wife's obit, and his brother's obit.:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7214&p=235504

I find no near, blood relationship between Benny and Warren Caster.

Thanks, Tom
Yes, the obits were at the thread I mentioned (sorry I did not mention your post with them in the above).
The Berry/Benny link I had not seen before and though I would draw back from declaring it "proof" (because of the Martin E / Elmer M correlation) I would call it close enough. And no blood relationship... just another of those crazy coincidences in which this case abounds.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Redfern on Mon 16 Jun 2014, 3:33 am

terlin wrote:Several here have hinted that the whole second floor encounter was created to protect Truly.

Allen Redfern said (top of p.33 of this thread):
The main difficulty I have is in working out why DPD and the FBI didn't place the Oswald encounter on the third- or fourth-floor stairway, thus matching Baker's affidavit and making it seem more likely he was the assassin.

The conventional answer seems to be that it would remove some of the 'guilt' felt by Baker for Tippit's death but I wonder if it had more to do with protecting Roy Truly from suspicion.

Most people seem to think Truly was involved some way in the assassination. Representative of this theme is found in the thread "Why did Roy Truly bring a rifle to work?" (at http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7214)
[the thread is from 2006 and on this thread Greg Parker happens to mention that Warren Caster (who brought in the rifles rather than Truly) may have been related to Berry Caster who worked with Bill Randle (bro-in-law of Buell Frazier)]
Unlike quite a few researchers, Greg seems to hone in on the genealogical connections... Berry is an unusual first name but not unique as my grandfather used that same spelling. But he was Texan so maybe it is a Texas kinda thing.

A websearch shows the only other mention of Berry Caster is from our own backyard:
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t24-buell-wesley-frazier-linnie-mae-and-bill-randle

Greg brings out a lot of the strange connections between Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle, and the goings on at the TSBD. Even if Linnie Mae did/did not work there.

Exactly what the connection may be has yet to be determined.

Back to Truly, it is easy to think he was involved in the assassination but the only connection I can see between the TSBD and JFK's killing is Oswald and the fact that he worked in the building. Given that Oswald was innocent, the connection with the TSBD and the assassination skates on very thin ice.

Once you remove Oswald from the equation, you still have Truly acting strangely and it has no apparent connection to the assassination, given the above removal of Oswald from the equation. Many claim there would still have been a shooter on the sixth floor so Truly might have been involved but I have not yet seen anything conclusive on that issue.

So, if Truly was not trying to cover up a connection with JFK is it possible he was merely trying to cover up a connection to Oswald?

And what might that connection be?

As with the Tippit killing, proximity between crimes does not necessarily mean they are related.

Most who believe there was a conspiracy involved in the assassination of President Kennedy also consider Oswald to have been set up and are therefore sceptical of the official narrative concerning how he found work at the TSBD so soon before the assassination.

It would have been known at this stage by some of those arranging the presidential visit that the motorcade route would pass beneath the TSBD given the choice of the Trade Mart for the luncheon.

Those who arranged Oswald's job - primarily Ruth Paine and Roy Truly - will naturally also come under suspicion of being involved in the plot.

I have absolute faith in the acoustics study carried out for the HSCA which found it very likely that three shots were fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD. However, this does not necessarily mean that the rifle found there was used in the assassination. Regardless of whether it was or not, its key significance was that it could be traced to Lee Harvey Oswald, thus constituting (in some eyes at least) proof that he was the assassin.

If it is argued that outsiders (perhaps posing as Secret Service agents) entered the TSBD, then would they not require assistance to avoid detection? Would they rely purely on luck? Roy Truly was surely better placed than anyone to have provided that assistance.


Do 'most' think Truly was involved some way in the assassination? On this forum, yes, but my impression is that Ruth Paine has been the focus of far more attention down the years than Roy Truly.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Mon 16 Jun 2014, 6:19 am

Redfern wrote:
terlin wrote:Several here have hinted that the whole second floor encounter was created to protect Truly.

Allen Redfern said (top of p.33 of this thread):
The main difficulty I have is in working out why DPD and the FBI didn't place the Oswald encounter on the third- or fourth-floor stairway, thus matching Baker's affidavit and making it seem more likely he was the assassin.

The conventional answer seems to be that it would remove some of the 'guilt' felt by Baker for Tippit's death but I wonder if it had more to do with protecting Roy Truly from suspicion.

Most people seem to think Truly was involved some way in the assassination. Representative of this theme is found in the thread "Why did Roy Truly bring a rifle to work?" (at http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7214)
[the thread is from 2006 and on this thread Greg Parker happens to mention that Warren Caster (who brought in the rifles rather than Truly) may have been related to Berry Caster who worked with Bill Randle (bro-in-law of Buell Frazier)]
Unlike quite a few researchers, Greg seems to hone in on the genealogical connections... Berry is an unusual first name but not unique as my grandfather used that same spelling. But he was Texan so maybe it is a Texas kinda thing.

A websearch shows the only other mention of Berry Caster is from our own backyard:
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t24-buell-wesley-frazier-linnie-mae-and-bill-randle

Greg brings out a lot of the strange connections between Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle, and the goings on at the TSBD. Even if Linnie Mae did/did not work there.

Exactly what the connection may be has yet to be determined.

Back to Truly, it is easy to think he was involved in the assassination but the only connection I can see between the TSBD and JFK's killing is Oswald and the fact that he worked in the building. Given that Oswald was innocent, the connection with the TSBD and the assassination skates on very thin ice.

Once you remove Oswald from the equation, you still have Truly acting strangely and it has no apparent connection to the assassination, given the above removal of Oswald from the equation. Many claim there would still have been a shooter on the sixth floor so Truly might have been involved but I have not yet seen anything conclusive on that issue.

So, if Truly was not trying to cover up a connection with JFK is it possible he was merely trying to cover up a connection to Oswald?

And what might that connection be?

As with the Tippit killing, proximity between crimes does not necessarily mean they are related.

Most who believe there was a conspiracy involved in the assassination of President Kennedy also consider Oswald to have been set up and are therefore sceptical of the official narrative concerning how he found work at the TSBD so soon before the assassination.

It would have been known at this stage by some of those arranging the presidential visit that the motorcade route would pass beneath the TSBD given the choice of the Trade Mart for the luncheon.

Those who arranged Oswald's job - primarily Ruth Paine and Roy Truly - will naturally also come under suspicion of being involved in the plot.

I have absolute faith in the acoustics study carried out for the HSCA which found it very likely that three shots were fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD. However, this does not necessarily mean that the rifle found there was used in the assassination. Regardless of whether it was or not, its key significance was that it could be traced to Lee Harvey Oswald, thus constituting (in some eyes at least) proof that he was the assassin.

If it is argued that outsiders (perhaps posing as Secret Service agents) entered the TSBD, then would they not require assistance to avoid detection? Would they rely purely on luck? Roy Truly was surely better placed than anyone to have provided that assistance.


Do 'most' think Truly was involved some way in the assassination? On this forum, yes, but my impression is that Ruth Paine has been the focus of far more attention down the years than Roy Truly.

When Robert Adams, one of Oswald's placement officers at the Texas Employment Commission (TEC), testified before the Warren Commission he was "questioned" about his handling of Oswald's employment file.  There are many suspicious things that happened to this file and there are many suspicious things about some of the employees at the TEC including Robert Adams himself.  Something to chew on is this little piece of testimony from Mr. Adams:

"Yes; but in any event, I was concerned, quite frankly, that I might have referred him on a job, Mr. Oswald, on a job with the Texas Depository and my office manager assured me that I had not, but he said, "You did talk to him several times, what do you remember about it?" "Did I make any written comments, good or bad about him?" And he said, "No, you didn't."'

Adams claimed he rushed to work early on Monday morning after the assassination and immediately went to get Oswald's file.  It wasn't there.  The TEC office manager, Mr. Sayre, had already handed the file over to the FBI.  Mr. Adams should not have been surprised by this; because Adams was an FBI informant - Dallas T-15.

Why would Robert Adams be so concerned that he referred Oswald for the job at the book depository?  

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  In my opinion, and I've looked at this extensively, the TEC with the FBI's help through their well situated informers, and maybe Roy Truly, were responsible for getting Oswald the job at the TSBD.


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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Goban Saor on Mon 16 Jun 2014, 7:14 am

Thanks for that detailed analysis, HG. It instantiates the way in which the US back then was just as much a police state as its Cold War enemies. It was hardly possible for a mouse to fart without it being noted.
 
The idea that a ‘person of interest’ such as Oswald would get a job anywhere, let alone in a building so strategically located on the motorcade route, without the knowledge or indeed the intervention of the shadow government is not credible.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 16 Jun 2014, 7:19 am

Hello Goodbye wrote:I've said it before, I'll say it again.  In my opinion, and I've looked at this extensively, the TEC with the FBI's help through their well situated informers, and maybe Roy Truly, were responsible for getting Oswald the job at the TSBD.
Hmm. There's that name that keeps coming up. Roy Truly. Maybe Truly is the Rosetta Stone of this case. Or perhaps a Rosetta Pebble.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by greg parker on Mon 16 Jun 2014, 7:27 am

When Robert Adams, one of Oswald's placement officers at the Texas Employment Commission (TEC), testified before the Warren Commission he was "questioned" about his handling of Oswald's employment file.  There are many suspicious things that happened to this file and there are many suspicious things about some of the employees at the TEC including Robert Adams himself.  Something to chew on is this little piece of testimony from Mr. Adams:

"Yes; but in any event, I was concerned, quite frankly, that I might have referred him on a job, Mr. Oswald, on a job with the Texas Depository and my office manager assured me that I had not, but he said, "You did talk to him several times, what do you remember about it?" "Did I make any written comments, good or bad about him?" And he said, "No, you didn't."'


Adams claimed he rushed to work early on Monday morning after the assassination and immediately went to get Oswald's file.  It wasn't there.  The TEC office manager, Mr. Sayre, had already handed the file over to the FBI.  Mr. Adams should not have been surprised by this; because he was an FBI informant - Dallas T-15.

Why would Robert Adams be so concerned that he referred Oswald for the job at the book depository?  

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  In my opinion, and I've looked at this extensively, the TEC with the FBI's help through their TEC informers, and probably Roy Truly, were responsible for getting Oswald the job at the TSBD.
What this shows is that the TEC did handle recruitment for the TSBD, otherwise why would Adams have any cause for concern?


In your scenario, you have to include Linnie Mae Randle and Ruth Paine in on the deal because either they sent LHO for a job which had already been organized for him, or they lied about their roles in getting him his job in order to hide the involvement of TEC and FBI. Either way, they're in. 

We find the same confusion with Buell Frazier. He claimed to get the job through an Irving employment, while his sister claimed she recommend it. Such a recommendation was needed however, in order to have a reason to further recommend it to Oswald. Buell's arrival in Irving coincides with when the Dallas leg of the presidential trip was confirmed. It is telling that no investigation was made of the private Irving employment agency because to do so may have shown Buell was telling the truth and that would expose the whole bullshit story about how Oswald got his job.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Tue 17 Jun 2014, 4:38 am

greg parker wrote:
When Robert Adams, one of Oswald's placement officers at the Texas Employment Commission (TEC), testified before the Warren Commission he was "questioned" about his handling of Oswald's employment file.  There are many suspicious things that happened to this file and there are many suspicious things about some of the employees at the TEC including Robert Adams himself.  Something to chew on is this little piece of testimony from Mr. Adams:

"Yes; but in any event, I was concerned, quite frankly, that I might have referred him on a job, Mr. Oswald, on a job with the Texas Depository and my office manager assured me that I had not, but he said, "You did talk to him several times, what do you remember about it?" "Did I make any written comments, good or bad about him?" And he said, "No, you didn't."'


Adams claimed he rushed to work early on Monday morning after the assassination and immediately went to get Oswald's file.  It wasn't there.  The TEC office manager, Mr. Sayre, had already handed the file over to the FBI.  Mr. Adams should not have been surprised by this; because he was an FBI informant - Dallas T-15.

Why would Robert Adams be so concerned that he referred Oswald for the job at the book depository?  

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  In my opinion, and I've looked at this extensively, the TEC with the FBI's help through their TEC informers, and probably Roy Truly, were responsible for getting Oswald the job at the TSBD.
What this shows is that the TEC did handle recruitment for the TSBD, otherwise why would Adams have any cause for concern?


In your scenario, you have to include Linnie Mae Randle and Ruth Paine in on the deal because either they sent LHO for a job which had already been organized for him, or they lied about their roles in getting him his job in order to hide the involvement of TEC and FBI. Either way, they're in. 

We find the same confusion with Buell Frazier. He claimed to get the job through an Irving employment, while his sister claimed she recommend it. Such a recommendation was needed however, in order to have a reason to further recommend it to Oswald. Buell's arrival in Irving coincides with when the Dallas leg of the presidential trip was confirmed. It is telling that no investigation was made of the private Irving employment agency because to do so may have shown Buell was telling the truth and that would expose the whole bullshit story about how Oswald got his job.

Question: how true is the story about the job working as a baggage handler that Ruth Paine forgot to tell Lee Oswald about?

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by greg parker on Tue 17 Jun 2014, 6:56 am

Question: how true is the story about the job working as a baggage handler that Ruth Paine forgot to tell Lee Oswald about?
From Adams' testimony:

Mr. ADAMS - Yes, sir; about--in late October or early November, Trans-Texas Airways called Mr. Roy----
Mr. JENNER - Who is Mr. Roy?
Mr. ADAMS - He is not the station manager, he is the. I really don't know what his title is, but anyway, he deals with the people who are more concerned with servicing the aircraft than with passengers. Anyway, he advised me that the company was contemplating expansion and he would need possibly as many as 12 or 14 ramp agents and--as they are called by the airline industry- -we call them baggage, cargo handlers, and he gave me qualifications, minimum qualifications, to send out those who met the qualifications.
Mr. JENNER - Was Lee Harvey Oswald one of those you sent out?
Mr. ADAMS - If the record indicates, he was.
Mr. JENNER - But here again you have no recollection beyond what' the record shows?
Mr. ADAMS - No, sir.

How the testimony perhaps should have read:

Mr. ADAMS - Yes, sir; about--in mid October, Texas School Book Depository called -- got  a call from Mr. Roy Truly--
Mr. JENNER - Who is Mr. Truly?
Mr. ADAMS - He is not the depository manager, he is the-- I really don't know what his title is, superintendent maybe, but anyway, he advised me that the company needed a temp.
Mr. JENNER - Was Lee Harvey Oswald one of those you sent out?
Mr. ADAMS - He was.
Mr. JENNER - But here again you have no recollection beyond what the record shows?
Mr. ADAMS - Oh. no. I do recall phoning and speaking to a lady who said she would pass on the details.

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by greg parker on Tue 17 Jun 2014, 7:33 am

Let's just contemplate this part of the testimony:

Mr. ADAMS - Yes, sir; about--in late October or early November, Trans-Texas Airways called Mr. Roy----
Mr. JENNER - Who is Mr. Roy?
Mr. ADAMS - He is not the station manager, he is the. I really don't know what his title is, but anyway, he deals with the people who are more concerned with servicing the aircraft than with passengers. Anyway, he advised me that the company was contemplating expansion and he would need possibly as many as 12 or 14 ramp agents and--as they are called by the airline industry- -we call them baggage, cargo handlers, and he gave me qualifications, minimum qualifications, to send out those who met the qualifications.

1. It looks like the stenographer is trying to indicate that Adams was cut off when giving the name of the gentlemen he spoke to so that Mr. Roy "Something" becomes simply "Mr. Roy". That leaves us with the coincidence that someone named Roy was possibly going to employ Oswald -- but Oswald had already started work for someone named Roy.

2. The company was contemplating expansion??? FFS. I managed an employment agency for a year and had a similar role to Adams for a year before that. Businesses do not phone employment agencies to advise they are contemplating expansion and get you to start sending staff on that basis. The whole idea is idiotic. Contemplating doesn't even connote firm "set in concrete" plans. On what basis then do you start putting on staff for something that is barely on the drawing board? It is total crap.

I have to dips me lid to Lee on this. I have been one of those who, over many years, has argued that Lee was denied a chance at this higher paying job at the airport. But it was just another big lie along the same lines as the 2nd floor lunch encounter and the bus getaway -- and another reason why the whole case needs to be stripped back and redone.


Last edited by greg parker on Tue 17 Jun 2014, 2:43 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Terry W. Martin on Tue 17 Jun 2014, 12:05 pm

greg parker wrote:... it was just another big lie along the same lines as the 2nd floor lunch encounter and the bus getaway -- and another reason why the whole case needs to be stripped back and redone.

Yes, another lie.

If it were not for the lies there would be nothing holding this case together.  You're one-eyed

It sort of makes you wonder what if anything is real. I had the same sort of feeling when investigating the Lincoln case. So much of what we think the case was is nothing more than imagination.

Yes, it is high time the case as we know it is scrapped and start over with a clean slate. At least then, something should make sense.

"Curiouser and curiouser." - Charles Dodgson

Terry W. Martin

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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

Post by Guest on Tue 17 Jun 2014, 2:02 pm

terlin wrote:
greg parker wrote:... it was just another big lie along the same lines as the 2nd floor lunch encounter and the bus getaway -- and another reason why the whole case needs to be stripped back and redone.

Yes, another lie.

If it were not for the lies there would be nothing holding this case together.
 You're one-eyed

It sort of makes you wonder what if anything is real. I had the same sort of feeling when investigating the Lincoln case. So much of what we think the case was is nothing more than imagination.

Yes, it is high time the case as we know it is scrapped and start over with a clean slate. At least then, something should make sense.

"Curiouser and curiouser." - Charles Dodgson
This was never going to trial. Not a even snowflakes chance in hell. I honestly believe Oswald thought he might have been able to salvage his situation while he was in custody but didn't realise there simply wasn't a plan B that included him being alive.
They effectively lied all they needed to to make it stick. Its best not to believe anything like you guys say and start from scratch.
I am no longer gobsmacked by this all. I am sickened by it.

Guest
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Re: The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

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