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An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Albert Rossi on Wed 21 May 2014, 6:52 am

So Lee, I'm sure you've thought of this, but how would you then provide an answer to Sean's objection that it does not make sense for Oswald to have gone from first floor vestibule back up (by whatever route) to the second floor lunchroom after the motorcade passes ... what motivation would he have had?

Or is this one of the legs we're supposed to kick out from under the table?

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Wed 21 May 2014, 7:24 am

Albert Rossi wrote:So Lee, I'm sure you've thought of this, but how would you then provide an answer to Sean's objection that it does not make sense for Oswald to have gone from first floor vestibule back up (by whatever route) to the second floor lunchroom after the motorcade passes ... what motivation would he have had?

Or is this one of the legs we're supposed to kick out from under the table?

The problem for me here, Albert, is I don't fully buy into the outline I proposed because there most certainly are bits and pieces that don't yet fit.  What I think I've done is tried to make as many of the pieces slot into a scenario that makes significantly more sense than both the Warren Commission's and Richard Gilbride's slightly amended versions.

If my alternative scenario is true regarding Truly and Baker's route up the front staircase (and I do believe it makes infinitely more sense if we do go with a lunchroom encounter) then I'd be willing to go with them seeing someone in the lunchroom.  Whether it was definitely Oswald in there I simply cannot commit to.  The official route up the rear stairs makes no sense whatsoever in trying to support a lunchroom encounter.

Now, onto your question. If it was Oswald in the lunchroom then I really don't know for certain what his motivation was for going back upstairs.

However, if you threw some thumbscrews on me then my currently evidence-free guess would be this; he had his camera with him and he went to retrieve his oversized brown paper bag that he brought it to work in.  The Imperial Reflex 620 camera was the alleged backyard photos camera:



The camera came with the flashbulb accessory as standard, yet the flashbulb attachment (that I originally thought was the disc shaped object seen in Prayer Man's hands) was never found in Oswald's possessions for some reason.  There was quite a bit of a shell game going on regarding this camera post assassination.

We all know he was a keen photographer.  He listed 'photography' as his occupation on many forms he completed.  He loved photographing his kids and he took many photos on his travels in Japan, Europe and the Soviet Union.  It will take some profound evidence to get me to shake off my beliefs that:

a) Oswald would not pass up an opportunity to take a photograph of a U.S. President
b) That in order to do so he would need his camera
c) The ride home on Thursday instead of Friday was to collect his camera
d) He took his camera in his oversized brown paper bag, along with his lunch and some clean washing, when he rode to work the following morning with Frazier

So, that's kinda where I stand on this.  Don't think I can ever prove it but I am looking forward to seeing what work Linda has done on measuring the Darnell frames.

Could Mrs. Reid have seen him with a camera, instead of a bottle of coke?  Don't know.  Could Baker have seen him with a camera in the lunchroom (perhaps removing the flash) and Baker initially believed it was a weapon? Is this why Baker went into the lunchroom with gun drawn and pointed at Oswald?  Don't know.  But something spooked Baker if this encounter occurred.

Were both Baker and Reid asked to change this object into to a bottle of coke?  Don't know.

Is this the reason why Baker's coke story later changed?  Because the false narrative of coming up the rear stairs - seeing the fleeting glimpse of Oswald entering the lunchroom wouldn't have allowed enough time for Oswald to have bought the coke from the vending machine hence Baker could no longer see him with a coke in his hands?  Don't know.

But it all makes for an intriguing series of propositions, don't you think?

What if Lee Harvey Oswald actually photographed the assassination?  Wow!


Last edited by Hello Goodbye on Wed 21 May 2014, 7:40 pm; edited 15 times in total (Reason for editing : Syntax problems)

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Wed 21 May 2014, 7:30 am

Stan Dane wrote:Wasn't Williams another one of those "slightly retarded" employees who Truly said worked there?

Well, Stan, seeing as how Roy Truly was an ultra-right wing racist he probably thought that of all of his black employees.

Old Roy actually believed Kennedy was a traitor to his "own kind" for trying to desegregate the south and he was vehemently opposed to Kennedy's foreign policy.

** But also remember that "retarded Jack" had keys to the TSBD -- he used to open the place of a morning.  So did he have a conference room key too?  Did Eddie Piper have a key?

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 21 May 2014, 7:49 am

Stan Dane wrote:Wasn't Williams another one of those "slightly retarded" employees who Truly said worked there?

I believe he described him as being "superstitious."

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by bernie laverick on Wed 21 May 2014, 9:29 am

One of the things I find so compelling about this case are the countless peripheral ‘players’ who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and whose life would be forever defined by those few minutes in Dallas 50 years ago. Bonnie Ray Williams is one such character. Here we are, still talking about him, 50 years on. All he did was have a shit job in the wrong place. I always had a soft spot for him. It must have been bad enough being a black youth in the deep segregated south in the early 60’s without the terrible misfortune of being so closely tied to, and possibly even accused of, the assassination of the century.

But I did a bit of digging about our Bonnie and I remember a few things being quite odd. I’m working on memory here but I believe he lived in a ‘White-Flight’ town whose name evades me. How bizarre is that? I posted a few things on Ed Forum a couple of years ago and Greg also found some odd things about this town too. And according to his testimony he left school at 18 with qualifications.  I had a further look at his testimony and in places it is pure comedy gold

Mr. BALL. What year did you get out of high school?
Mr. WILLIAMS. 1962.

Mr. BALL. You finished school when?
Mr. WILLIAMS. 1962.

Mr. BALL. Did you work while you went to school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No.
Mr. DULLES. This is after you finished school?

hat’s right, he wasn’t at school in Nov 1963. He’d left the year before, in 1962. When he was almost nineteen! What did he graduate in? Medicine? In the UK at that time most folk left school at fourteen unless they showed real academic ability.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think the first day I started work there they started me off as a wrapper. Then the fellows told me that I had qualifications to be a checker, so they put me on as a checker there.

So, he graduated in…checking.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I didn't know him personally, but I had seen him working. Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put him serf in any position to say anything to anyone. He just went about his work. He never said anything to me. I never said anything to him.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever have lunch with him?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No. The only time he would come into the lunchroom sometimes and eat a sandwich maybe, and then he would go for a walk, and he would go out. And I assume he would come back. But the only other time he would come in and read a paper or nothing, and laugh and leave again.
Mr. DULLES. But he would never say good morning or good evening?
Mr. WILLIAMS. He never would speak to anyone. He was just a funny fellow. I don't know what kind of a fellow he was.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice what he read in the newspaper?

That’s a bizarre question to ask given his previous three answers. And then, after that autocue…

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe one morning I noticed he was reading something about politics, and as he was reading this he acted like it was funny to him. He would read a paragraph or two, smile, or laugh, then throw the paper down and get up and walk out.

I love how the first sentence refers to some one-off event…he “believes”, yet by the second sentence, now fully in his stride, the tense changes to imply an habitual occurrence. And then;

Mr. WILLIAMS……He never would read the sports.

FORD. And it was in the rec room or domino room where you saw Oswald read the paper on this occasion?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And you said he read some of it to you and smiled about it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No; he didn't read it to me. We were waiting turns to play dominoes, and I happened to glance over. And I just noticed what he was reading.  

And in that one glance on that one occasion he ascertained it was a political article and that Oswald “would never read the sport”. Now that's intuitive.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor that morning?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure. I think I saw him once messing around with some cartons or something, back over the east side of the building. But he wasn't in the window that they said he shot the President from. He was more on the east side of the elevator, I think, messing around with cartons, because he always just messed around, kicking cartons around.

Mr. BALL. This morning, when you think you saw Oswald on the sixth floor, can you tell us about where he was?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, as I said before, I am not sure that he was really on the sixth floor. But he was always around that way. In the place I think I saw him was as the east elevator come up to the sixth floor, he was on that side of the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Now, take your pencil and show us about where it was that you saw Oswald that morning.
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I saw Oswald somewhere around in this vicinity. As I was up by this other elevator, I think one time I saw him over there. I am not really sure.

He “thinks”, though he’s “not really sure” that Oswald was there but amazingly remembers seeing him “kicking cartons” and “messing around” with them.  

Mr. BALL. What did you have in your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a chicken sandwich.
Mr. BALL. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone.
Mr. BALL. Chicken on the bone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The chicken was not boned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken.
Mr. BALL. Did it have bread around it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, it did.

Comedy gold! He wasn’t tutored to say “sandwich”. That was a rash improvised flurry. Keep it simple Bonnie. A chicken “lunch” would have been a better answer. Or, as had already been practised, “It was just chicken on the bone”. There, done and dusted. Seems almost laughable we should be discussing the left-overs of a lunch eaten half a century ago by an obscure and almost unknown young black manual worker from Texas; but not nearly as laughable as the image of a man actually eating a “chicken on the bone sandwich”. Never happened. So why the lie?

Mr. BALL. Why did you go there and look in that direction? (the grassy knoll)
Mr. WILLIAMS. Because, as I said before, the policeman was running toward the tracks.
Mr. BALL. The tracks shown in this picture?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that is the parking lot right here.
Mr. BALL. And the tracks are shown in there, aren't they?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And were people running towards the tracks?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; the policemen were.
FORD. Mr. Ball, I hate to interrupt, but I do have to go to a call of the House. I wonder if I could ask one question right here. I dislike breaking up the sequence….

Yes I’m sure you do Gerald, particularly when one of the witnesses starts straying into ‘unrehearsed’ testimony that may place a shooter somewhere else. Well tackled! Then he hoofs a long ball up the field with…

FORD. …Mr Williams, when did you first know that the President's motorcade would come by the Texas School Book Depository?

Consummate back four defending!

I’ve always been surprised that no one (as far as I know) ever saw fit to follow Bonnie’s story up. Sadly he passed away in 1996 so any secrets he may have had have gone with him. Or have they? Somewhere I have the telephone number of Bonnie’s daughter by his second wife. I promised myself I’d ring her and crack the case wide open (ok, that’s a bit grandiose, but you never know) but I simply lacked the confidence. I mean, what would I say? Hi, I’m a musician from Hull…just wondering if your dad gave you a description of the real shooters…

But did he ever make a death bed admission to seeing something he shouldn’t have? Did he ever say anything to anyone about any doubts he may have had? Would it be too intrusive to make a contact and see?

WILLIAMS, BONNIE R, born 1944, and his bride CARRIE L, born 1945, married 13 AUG 1962, and they had two children under 18 when they got divorced in DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS, U.S.A. on 18 MAR 1969.

WILLIAMS, BONNIE R was born 03 September 1943; received Social Security number 450-66-7662, which corresponds to Texas; and died 28 March 1996

Victor Williams, (Bonnie’s son) 47, passed 7/27/2011. Survived by his wife, Andrea Williams and a host of other relatives. Wake 7-8pm, Thursday. Funeral: 11:00 am, Friday, both at Sandra Clark Funeral Chapel. Interment, Laurel Land Cemetery.


Last edited by greg parker on Wed 21 May 2014, 9:57 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : reformatting)

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by bernie laverick on Wed 21 May 2014, 9:42 am

Any suggestions as to how I can reformat my last post so there aren't those hideous gaps?

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Albert Rossi on Wed 21 May 2014, 9:53 am

Hello Goodbye wrote:
Albert Rossi wrote:So Lee, I'm sure you've thought of this, but how would you then provide an answer to Sean's objection that it does not make sense for Oswald to have gone from first floor vestibule back up (by whatever route) to the second floor lunchroom after the motorcade passes ... what motivation would he have had?

Or is this one of the legs we're supposed to kick out from under the table?

But it all makes for an intriguing propositions, don't you think?

What if Lee Harvey Oswald actually photographed the assassination?  Wow!

That would be something.  Yes, I agree that it is certainly a consistent hypothesis and worth mulling over.  It certainly makes more sense than for him to mosey on up the stairs in order to whet his whistle with some Dr. Pepper after the parade.

I'm anxious to see what Linda has come up with too.  Thanks!

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by greg parker on Wed 21 May 2014, 9:54 am

bernie laverick wrote:Any suggestions as to how I can reformat my last post so there aren't those hideous gaps?
I'll fix it, Bernie. Nice job, btw... and I empathize with your reluctance to make a cold call given who/where you are...

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Colin Crow on Wed 21 May 2014, 11:03 pm

Lee, some thoughts on your alternative.

1. Why do you think the power was cut to the passenger elevator? I don't think the elevators were a problem until Mooney entered the TSBD some minutes after the shots. Sawyer used the passenger elevator in the first few minutes to go to the 4th and back. Interestingly Mooney has claimed the elevators were still out until when he left the building. If true they were out for 20 minutes or more. This elevator was much quicker than the freight elevators, I think twice as fast according to my calculations. If Truly's intent was to delay Baker, would he choose this? Perhaps the knowledge it could not get to the 6th floor directly is a stronger motive.

2. In reality you have provided a perfect scenario that avoids all logistical problems for the WC.

3. Would Oswald's reappearance in the lunchroom be so suspicious to Baker? He obviously is not a shooter. Maybe it would be strange he felt the need for a coke given the circumstances, but enough to delay the rush to, the roof?

4. I think in a later post you have the girls going to the passenger lift before the staircase. Barry Ernest has posted on his website that he followed this up and it appears erroneous. I have posted this info in response to Richard in his thread as he included it also.

5. You have actually provided a stronger version for the WC. It overcomes all the issues with the lunchroom encounter for them. Just leave Oswald at the entrance out and it's perfect for them. Yet they supposedly chose an alternative "fiction" to go with. I wonder why.

6. A thought about Reid. She claimed to go inside and crossing the office area encountes Oswald. Where was she going? She walked many feet past her desk. It was next to the dumb waiter. Why did she keep walking? Would she not be calling her husband? Just something that seems strange to me when I reread her testimony today. Also it seems she did not reenter the building until well over 90 seconds after the shots.

7. Looking at the timing of the official version it seems Oswald spent 30 seconds or more in the lunchroom after Baker left and before encountering Reid. How long does it take to buy a coke? 30 seconds and the coke is still full according to Reid. Did he fumble his change and have to find it on the lunchroom floor? Surely every second inside the building is imperative for an escaping assassin.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Colin Crow on Wed 21 May 2014, 11:49 pm

Some other random thoughts.

1. Baker led the way up the stairs. I am not sure why this was changed but here is a theory. If Baker is charging up well ahead of the older Truly and gets to the landing disoriented, he thinks the vestibule door is the way up. He actually stumbles upon Owald because he is momentarily lost. This lould make the DPD ineptitude complete. He lost his way and then let's the assassin and Tippits's killer free. Not a good story for the press.

2. If the elevators are stuck on the 5th floor is is not innocent. I am not convinced the west elevator was not on the 6th. Dougherty's story is not believable. I am not convinced that Truly could see that they were at the same floor by craning his neck through the open part of the gate.

3. The coke is important. 

4. The chicken bones are important.

5. No LNer can explain the Arnold Rowland sighting when the official story has BRW there at the same time.

6. The description of the assassin is always 165 or 170 pounds. Oswald was less than 140. The original broadcast description did not include a clothing description. Why not?

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by beowulf on Thu 22 May 2014, 3:57 am

5. You have actually provided a stronger version for the WC. It overcomes all the issues with the lunchroom encounter for them. Just leave Oswald at the entrance out and it's perfect for them. Yet they supposedly chose an alternative "fiction" to go with. I wonder why.

Definitely, this is a more plausible scenario for lunchroom encounter. The problem here for the WC (or rather the FBI who did all the calculations within days of shooting) is timing. In order for B&T to see Oswald in lunchroom, he must get down from 6th floor before they can get up from ground floor. The only way to make the math work (barely), is to send B&T across the ground floor, then call for elevators, then go up backstairs and then walk over to lunchroom.  A straight shot up front stairs and through office would get them there before Oswald and that won't do. The other problem with this story is Mrs. Hine. Her story is out of sync with Mrs. Reid's, if she was lying to hide B&T's run through the office why wouldn't she go a little further and say she saw Mrs. Reid (or even better, Mrs. Reid AND Oswald) in the office?

I'd note again, either Mrs. Hine or West is lying because neither reports seeing B&T yet one of them had to. Also, the FBI had no clue either elevator was hung up on 5th floor when they ran their time trials, that story detail appears to have been given to Truly instead of being received from him.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by beowulf on Thu 22 May 2014, 4:13 am

One other point, outside of the Warren Report, is there any example of the word "vestibule" used for anything other than "a lobby, entrance hall, or passage between the entrance and the interior of a building"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibule_%28architecture%29

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Thu 22 May 2014, 5:07 am

Colin Crow wrote:Lee, some thoughts on your alternative.

1. Why do you think the power was cut to the passenger elevator? I don't think the elevators were a problem until Mooney entered the TSBD some minutes after the shots. Sawyer used the passenger elevator in the first few minutes to go to the 4th and back. Interestingly Mooney has claimed the elevators were still out until when he left the building. If true they were out for 20 minutes or more. This elevator was much quicker than the freight elevators, I think twice as fast according to my calculations. If Truly's intent was to delay Baker, would he choose this? Perhaps the knowledge it could not get to the 6th floor directly is a stronger motive.

2. In reality you have provided a perfect scenario that avoids all logistical problems for the WC.

3. Would Oswald's reappearance in the lunchroom be so suspicious to Baker? He obviously is not a shooter. Maybe it would be strange he felt the need for a coke given the circumstances, but enough to delay the rush to, the roof?

4. I think in a later post you have the girls going to the passenger lift before the staircase. Barry Ernest has posted on his website that he followed this up and it appears erroneous. I have posted this info in response to Richard in his thread as he included it also.

5. You have actually provided a stronger version for the WC. It overcomes all the issues with the lunchroom encounter for them. Just leave Oswald at the entrance out and it's perfect for them. Yet they supposedly chose an alternative "fiction" to go with. I wonder why.

6. A thought about Reid. She claimed to go inside and crossing the office area encountes Oswald. Where was she going? She walked many feet past her desk. It was next to the dumb waiter. Why did she keep walking? Would she not be calling her husband? Just something that seems strange to me when I reread her testimony today. Also it seems she did not reenter the building until well over 90 seconds after the shots.

7. Looking at the timing of the official version it seems Oswald spent 30 seconds or more in the lunchroom after Baker left and before encountering Reid. How long does it take to buy a coke? 30 seconds and the coke is still full according to Reid. Did he fumble his change and have to find it on the lunchroom floor? Surely every second inside the building is imperative for an escaping assassin.

Colin,

Thanks for taking the time to go through it all.

Just some thoughts and ideas to throw into the mix:

1.  Are there any non Dallas Police department witnesses that are on record claiming that they used the passenger elevator in the first five minutes after the assassination?  

A real long-shot, if there was power to the elevator, could be that it was hung on purpose immediately after the assassination on the third or fourth floor by person unknown who was asked/commanded to situate themselves inside the elevator?  I will agree that the fact the passenger elevator would not go to the sixth floor may be a motive but if it was available then it does undermine any belief that Truly was trying to slow Baker down.  They either didn't wait for it or it was unavailable somehow.

Are there any candidates for someone holding the elevator?

If there is a civilian witness on record stating they used it immediately afterwards then that could alter things.

2. It is the perfect scenario so either I am barking completely up the wrong tree or there was a reason a different scenario was created.  If this was the actual route then surely the first question to be asked of the superintendent, who knew the building like the back of his hand, would/should have been "Mr. Truly, you say you knew the officer was heading for the roof of your building.  Yet you took him on a journey that took much longer than simply directing him to the rear elevators.  Why was this?"  The logistical problems of a rear stair ascent would disappear, but more questions, and I believe suspicion, could have fallen on Truly.  

3. Maybe Baker noticed Oswald on the steps, maybe he didn't?  Throw into the mix the hypothesis that Oswald may have been holding his camera and we could have a reason why Baker launched himself into the lunchroom after quickly looking through the window.  If Oswald was removing the flash from the camera in there could Baker have thought Oswald was holding a weapon?  Does this answer why Baker felt it necessary to hold a gun on this guy?  

4. I don't think I mentioned the girls heading to the passenger elevator, Colin.  In the alternative scenario they are surplus to requirements when working through the logistics.

5. I'm prepared to work my brain down to a nub to answer this.

6. Interesting point, Colin.  She'd been on the phone to her husband prior to going and stuffing her lunch down her throat like a duck -- another part of her strange story and timings -- so I'm with you that I find it somewhat odd that she didn't immediately call him when she got back to her desk.  Wasn't she the last one out?  There is a ladies bag/purse on one of the chairs in photos of the lunchroom.  Reid said she went to her desk for her bag/purse but if she was the last one out of the lunchroom, and was in as much of a hurry as she claims to get downstairs, could this be her bag?  Did she head back to the lunchroom to retrieve it?  Did she see Oswald in the lunchroom?  Did she go upstairs with him after the assassination?  Did she want to separate herself from him?

Another consideration we have to contemplate is whether she was outside at all.  Last one out - first one in.  Conference room keys.  Dumb waiters.  Mumbling Oswald.

Odd goings on.

See second to last sentence of point number one.

7.  It's my firm belief that Oswald stuck around the building for many, many minutes.  The coke story was inserted to hide something else otherwise it wouldn't have started in Baker's and Reid's narratives and then removed from Bakers.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by beowulf on Fri 23 May 2014, 4:07 am

To revisit the "vestibule" issue, the word seems to have been planted by Belin in Truly and Baker testimony to WC in late March 1964, a week after the Dallas walk through.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/44003/44003.txt

CE497 mentioned below is the annotated diagram at top of thread (w/ "lock" written on it). Truly sounds a little hazy whether vestibule means the landing before the door or the hallway after the door.
Belin... Now, there appears to be some kind of a vestibule or hall of one kind or another with the No. 22 in a circle on it, on Exhibit 497. Is this completely clear, or are there books there from time to time?
Mr. TRULY. No; that is always clear. There is a few cartons of office stock, invoices, blank invoices and stationery and stuff up and down here. But there is always a pathway. There is a post, right about where this 22 is.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 498.
Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know what this is.
Mr. TRULY. Yes. This is the vestibule, when you first come up the stairs on the second floor--this is what you will find right there.
...
Mr. BELIN. What is this, to the extreme left? Is that the wall for the
staircase?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; there is an opening on this side, and the staircase is
back over here. This picture is just part of this vestibule out here. [
CE498 is top picture of linked pdf].
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_498.pdf

Later in his testimony, Truly's vestibule moves to the other side of the door.
Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing. Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24 [on CE497].


When Officer Baker testified, Belin used "vestibule" (which he told Truly was synonmous with "hall of one kind or another") thusly:
Belin... I would like you to state if you know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom.

On April 2 1964, Postal Inspector Holmes gave a deposition to Belin. Holmes's definition of vestibule is out of sync with Belin's definition but in sync with the English language. Baker and Truly testified prior Holmes yet it seems unlikely Belin would use the exact same word Oswald did, in the same context but with a completely wrong definition unless he knew what Oswald said and was trying to muddy the waters.
Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him [Oswald] when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/holmes1.htm

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 23 May 2014, 6:10 am

If I'm following this correctly, Truly initially called the area from the second floor NW stairs to the lunchroom door (22 circle area) a vestibule (outlined in blue). Then, as you pointed out, he later began calling the 24 circle area a vestibule (outlined in red).
 


When I was on a nuclear cruiser in the mid-1970s, I had responsibility for maintaining an inventory of laboratory equipment and supplies. I had a small storeroom for this inside of a small watertight compartment. To enter the storeroom, you passed through a watertight door (normally open) into a small space that was labelled "storage room vestibule." It was just a few feet of dead space. Then you unlocked a normal office-type door to enter the storeroom. The storeroom wall (bulkhead) was essentially a partition (non-watertight). So the watertight compartment (US Naval ships are divided up into these) consisted of the storeroom and the vestibule. I bring this up because this is really the only time I ever remember hearing/using the term vestibule, until you mentioned it above.
 
Based on my understanding, the area in red is a vestibule. The area in blue is not, because in my view, it serves as a storage area. Also, the area just inside the front doors of the TSBD is a vestibule, because it's a space leading to other spaces.

It's funny how Holmes says Oswald said he was stopped on the first floor vestibule? Not the second floor.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by greg parker on Fri 23 May 2014, 6:52 am

Stan Dane wrote:If I'm following this correctly, Truly initially called the area from the second floor NW stairs to the lunchroom door (22 circle area) a vestibule (outlined in blue). Then, as you pointed out, he later began calling the 24 circle area a vestibule (outlined in red).
 


When I was on a nuclear cruiser in the mid-1970s, I had responsibility for maintaining an inventory of laboratory equipment and supplies. I had a small storeroom for this inside of a small watertight compartment. To enter the storeroom, you passed through a watertight door (normally open) into a small space that was labelled "storage room vestibule." It was just a few feet of dead space. Then you unlocked a normal office-type door to enter the storeroom. The storeroom wall (bulkhead) was essentially a partition (non-watertight). So the watertight compartment (US Naval ships are divided up into these) consisted of the storeroom and the vestibule. I bring this up because this is really the only time I ever remember hearing/using the term vestibule, until you mentioned it above.
 
Based on my understanding, the area in red is a vestibule. The area in blue is not, because in my view, it serves as a storage area. Also, the area just inside the front doors of the TSBD is a vestibule, because it's a space leading to other spaces.

It's funny how Holmes says Oswald said he was stopped on the first floor vestibule? Not the second floor.
This is one of the reasons Holmes is so important. While others (rightly) crucify him for his part in the PO Box and order forms shenanigans, here he actually helps blow the lid on the whole thing by ACCURATELY reporting Oswald's alibi. And the only way I can make sense of that is he was the only non-law enforcement official asking questions. So while he may have helped out in his area of things (the PO) , he was not part of the dance that was going on regarding testimony on Oswald's movements. Did it matter? Obviously not. His testimony on this never gets looked at because everyone concentrates on the PO side of it. 

And the word "vestibule" seems to have been introduced by Oswald himself... I bet NO ONE prior to all this ever called either of those areas on the second floor a "vestibule".

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Terry W. Martin on Fri 23 May 2014, 7:24 am

greg parker wrote:And the word "vestibule" seems to have been introduced by Oswald himself... I bet NO ONE prior to all this ever called either of those areas on the second floor a "vestibule".

Greg,

Where did Oswald introduce that word? I'll admit its a little more high-fallootin' than most of the Texas bunch, but I cannot recall where Oswald brought it up.

Thanks.


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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by greg parker on Fri 23 May 2014, 7:54 am

Terry, it was during Holmes' only appearance at an interrogation - the last one on the Sunday morning.

Mr. HOLMES. He [Oswald] said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Terry W. Martin on Fri 23 May 2014, 8:00 am

greg parker wrote:Terry, it was during Holmes' only appearance at an interrogation - the last one on the Sunday morning.

Mr. HOLMES. He [Oswald] said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

Thanks.
Yeah, I saw that one earlier in the thread but I thought maybe Oswald himself had said it rather than being quoted.

Regardless, Truly did not seem to grasp what in tarnation a "vestibule" was.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by greg parker on Fri 23 May 2014, 8:09 am

terlin wrote:
greg parker wrote:Terry, it was during Holmes' only appearance at an interrogation - the last one on the Sunday morning.

Mr. HOLMES. He [Oswald] said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

Thanks.
Yeah, I saw that one earlier in the thread but I thought maybe Oswald himself had said it rather than being quoted.

Regardless, Truly did not seem to grasp what in tarnation a "vestibule" was.
Terry,

I take it you mean you thought I was suggesting he was caught on camera saying it as opposed to being quoted? It would matter if there were any reason to doubt he actually said it... but as a bona fide highfalutin and innocuous word, Holmes' would have no reason at all to put it in Oswald's mouth. I think it safe to assume Oswald did use it.   

And knowing Oswald used it in regard to the first floor... Belin had to try and shift this vestibule to the second floor...

_________________
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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by beowulf on Fri 23 May 2014, 8:57 am

Where did Oswald introduce that word? I'll admit its a little more high-fallootin' than most of the Texas bunch, but I cannot recall where Oswald brought it up.
I think Stan explained above how Oswald even came up with the word, I hadn't come across the word vestibule since I was an altar boy but I didn't know till just now that its also a nautical term.


Oswald, of course, was a Marine. Even on dry land Marines still use nautical terms, to the point of absurdity really (bulkhead instead of walls, deck instead of floor, hatch instead of door).  That the Navy uses vestibule explains why the high school dropout Oswald appears to have correctly used a word that didn't seem to be in the vocabulary of Truly, Baker or even WC lawyer David Belin.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Terry W. Martin on Fri 23 May 2014, 10:22 am

beowulf wrote:Where did Oswald introduce that word? I'll admit its a little more high-fallootin' than most of the Texas bunch, but I cannot recall where Oswald brought it up.
I think Stan explained above how Oswald even came up with the word, I hadn't come across the word vestibule since I was an altar boy but I didn't know till just now that its also a nautical term.

Oswald, of course, was a Marine. Even on dry land Marines still use nautical terms, to the point of absurdity really (bulkhead instead of walls, deck instead of floor, hatch instead of door).  That the Navy uses vestibule explains why the high school dropout Oswald appears to have correctly used a word that didn't seem to be in the vocabulary of Truly, Baker or even WC lawyer David Belin.

Thanks, Beowulf. I didn't put the two and two together from Stan's posting. It does make perfect sense though.


greg parker wrote:Terry,

I take it you mean you thought I was suggesting he was caught on camera saying it as opposed to being quoted? It would matter if there were any reason to doubt he actually said it... but as a bona fide highfalutin and innocuous word, Holmes' would have no reason at all to put it in Oswald's mouth. I think it safe to assume Oswald did use it.   

And knowing Oswald used it in regard to the first floor... Belin had to try and shift this vestibule to the second floor...

Thanks again. Yeah, I can't see Holmes using the word if it had not been what Oswald had said. And, as Holmes was fond of telling everyone under the Sun, he had a reeeeal good memory!

Well, for most things, anyway.

It is astonishing to me how sloppy the WC was put together. Holmes testimony definitely states Oswald had the encounter on the First Floor vestibule and, even though Belin tries to get the position moved, it stays in the published testimony.

Unfreakinbelievable!

But I wonder why?

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by beowulf on Fri 23 May 2014, 11:12 am

Mr. HOLMES. He [Oswald] said it was in the vestibule...

I added the Oswald in brackets, sorry if that was confusing.
Holmes's recollection of Oswald placing the Baker encounter in first floor vestibule is ignored because LNers and CTers have spent 50 years agreeing that the second floor encounter happened (they're simply split on whether this nails him or exonerates him).
Since that has been a baseline assumption that "everyone" agreed on, few people have given Holmes's testimony a second thought.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Fri 23 May 2014, 12:20 pm

beowulf wrote:Mr. HOLMES. He [Oswald] said it was in the vestibule...

I added the Oswald in brackets, sorry if that was confusing.
Holmes's recollection of Oswald placing the Baker encounter in first floor vestibule is ignored because LNers and CTers have spent 50 years agreeing that the second floor encounter happened (they're simply split on whether this nails him or exonerates him).
Since that has been a baseline assumption that "everyone" agreed on, few people have given Holmes's testimony a second thought.
Depending on what you read, he was on the 4th, the 3rd, the 2nd or the 1st. How anyone can agree on EXACTLY where he was after sifting through all this is anyone's guess and just a guess. Its enough to make you write off the whole episode.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by greg parker on Fri 23 May 2014, 12:56 pm

Paul Klein wrote:
beowulf wrote:Mr. HOLMES. He [Oswald] said it was in the vestibule...

I added the Oswald in brackets, sorry if that was confusing.
Holmes's recollection of Oswald placing the Baker encounter in first floor vestibule is ignored because LNers and CTers have spent 50 years agreeing that the second floor encounter happened (they're simply split on whether this nails him or exonerates him).
Since that has been a baseline assumption that "everyone" agreed on, few people have given Holmes's testimony a second thought.
Depending on what you read, he was on the 4th, the 3rd, the 2nd or the 1st. How anyone can agree on EXACTLY where he was after sifting through all this is anyone's guess and just a guess. Its enough to make you write off the whole episode.
Paul,

Some papers that weekend using police sources have him interacting with a cop while trying to leave from the front door. Oswald himself apparently said the same thing. Added to that, at least one of his work colleagues (Jarman?) told the HSCA investigator Oswald had been allowed to leave by police at the front entrance while he and his friends were forced to remain. 

Baker said third or fourth in his affidavit, but another part of his testimony indicated it was likely the fourth - so we can dismiss the third. Likewise we can dismiss the fourth - at least as far this being Oswald. That leaves the first and the second. And there are a million and one reasons to discount the second floor.

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