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An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 23 May 2014, 1:52 pm

beowulf wrote:Where did Oswald introduce that word? I'll admit its a little more high-fallootin' than most of the Texas bunch, but I cannot recall where Oswald brought it up.
I think Stan explained above how Oswald even came up with the word, I hadn't come across the word vestibule since I was an altar boy but I didn't know till just now that its also a nautical term.


Oswald, of course, was a Marine. Even on dry land Marines still use nautical terms, to the point of absurdity really (bulkhead instead of walls, deck instead of floor, hatch instead of door).  That the Navy uses vestibule explains why the high school dropout Oswald appears to have correctly used a word that didn't seem to be in the vocabulary of Truly, Baker or even WC lawyer David Belin.
To say vestibule is a nautical term is a bit too strong. Nautical terms are things like port, starboard, forward, aft, overhead, deck, bulkhead, hatch, head (restroom), ladder (stairs), etc. But vestibule was a term we used on the ship I was on. I would have to conclude it was used elsewhere in the Navy too (I never even thought about it until today). But I wouldn't go so far to say it was a nautical term, per se.

You are correct about the Marines using nautical terminology. The USMC is actually part of the Navy Department and they have a naval heritage. For example, the Marines have no medics but use Navy hospital corpsmen for this purpose. Once assigned to the Marines, the corpsmen live, act and train with Marines, but still keep their Navy uniforms and insignia. Marines are closest to the Navy.

It is interesting to consider that Oswald may very well have introduced "vestibule" to the vocabulary of the WC proceedings.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 23 May 2014, 2:09 pm

greg parker wrote:Baker said third or fourth in his affidavit, but another part of his testimony indicated it was likely the fourth - so we can dismiss the third. Likewise we can dismiss the fourth - at least as far this being Oswald. That leaves the first and the second. And there are a million and one reasons to discount the second floor.
Considering all of the evidence and the pros and cons of every scenario, I have to give the nod to the first floor. Easily.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Guest on Fri 23 May 2014, 2:52 pm

I've never believed the 2nd floor lunchroom scenario but it wasn't due to my deductive prowess. I have none I am afraid.
The story of Truly charging up ahead of Baker, who then happens to suspect no one other than Oswald of all people, by sticking his pistol in his gut while Oswald is totally non responsive, was always difficult to swallow. Too unbelievable. It was only recently when Lee found the Truly interview by Sauvage saying Baker went ahead of him, and prior to that, an FBI report that revealed that Oswald had stated he worked there in response to Baker apprehending him, that I realised it was in fact all bullshit like I suspected. That was enough proof in my mind it didn't happen. What truth they were hiding I don't know enough about, but I'll give the nod to PM and the first floor scenario. Especially after reading Harry Holmes testimony again.
This is a mess I was never too keen on cleaning up in my mind. The WC were a bunch of fucking slobs with this investigation.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 23 May 2014, 3:43 pm

Might make for a good poll topic. Where did the Baker-Truly-Oswald encounter take place?

a) fourth floor
b) third floor
c) second floor
d) first floor
e) more than one floor
f) didn't happen

Or something like that. Just an idea.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Colin Crow on Fri 23 May 2014, 6:05 pm

greg parker wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:
beowulf wrote:Mr. HOLMES. He [Oswald] said it was in the vestibule...

I added the Oswald in brackets, sorry if that was confusing.
Holmes's recollection of Oswald placing the Baker encounter in first floor vestibule is ignored because LNers and CTers have spent 50 years agreeing that the second floor encounter happened (they're simply split on whether this nails him or exonerates him).
Since that has been a baseline assumption that "everyone" agreed on, few people have given Holmes's testimony a second thought.
Depending on what you read, he was on the 4th, the 3rd, the 2nd or the 1st. How anyone can agree on EXACTLY where he was after sifting through all this is anyone's guess and just a guess. Its enough to make you write off the whole episode.
Paul,

Some papers that weekend using police sources have him interacting with a cop while trying to leave from the front door. Oswald himself apparently said the same thing. Added to that, at least one of his work colleagues (Jarman?) told the HSCA investigator Oswald had been allowed to leave by police at the front entrance while he and his friends were forced to remain. 

Baker said third or fourth in his affidavit, but another part of his testimony indicated it was likely the fourth - so we can dismiss the third. Likewise we can dismiss the fourth - at least as far this being Oswald. That leaves the first and the second. And there are a million and one reasons to discount the second floor.
Looking at the floor plans of the TSBD makes the 3rd floor highly unlikely for an encounter with someone "walking away from the staircase". Essentially it looks like an enclosed landing with only one doorway sized entry/exit.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Terry W. Martin on Fri 23 May 2014, 6:22 pm

Weren't there other people on the fourth floor? Someone who could corroborate this supposed encounter there?

A & S had descended from there but I thought there were other people still around.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by greg parker on Fri 23 May 2014, 6:48 pm

terlin wrote:Weren't there other people on the fourth floor? Someone who could corroborate this supposed encounter there?

A & S had descended from there but I thought there were other people still around.
Terry,

it comes down to interpretation of "come up". In the Stroud document Dorothy Garner saw B + T "come up". To some, that indicates she saw them on the landing. To others (well, me anyway) it's a bit too ambiguous to pin down that easily and could just as well be referring to just seeing them on their way up (that is to say, she saw them coming up but returned to her desk prior to them appearing on the landing. She becomes an even less tenable witness (to me, anyway) once you consider what she told Barry Ernest. When asked about Truly, she could recall seeing him more than once during the day, but couldn't recall where or when. With regard to the 4th floor, she could only recall a cop (or cops) coming up.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Colin Crow on Fri 23 May 2014, 6:58 pm

greg parker wrote:
terlin wrote:Weren't there other people on the fourth floor? Someone who could corroborate this supposed encounter there?

A & S had descended from there but I thought there were other people still around.
Terry,

it comes down to interpretation of "come up". In the Stroud document Dorothy Garner saw B + T "come up". To some, that indicates she saw them on the landing. To others (well, me anyway) it's a bit too ambiguous to pin down that easily and could just as well be referring to just seeing them on their way up (that is to say, she saw them coming up but returned to her desk prior to them appearing on the landing. She becomes an even less tenable witness (to me, anyway) once you consider what she told Barry Ernest. When asked about Truly, she could recall seeing him more than once during the day, but couldn't recall where or when. With regard to the 4th floor, she could only recall a cop (or cops) coming up.
There were 6 women left on the floor after Adams and Styles departed. At some point they moved to the west windows and were observed there when Norman, Jarman and Williams came down the stairs shortly after Baker and Truly took the elevator.

As for the Stroud document.

Martha Stroud was an Assistant US Attorney and it would appear quite precise with her language. As written it would imply that she (Stroud) heard Garner make the statement. Also the claim is that Garner  saw “Mr Truly and the policeman” come up. She did not see the girls go down but knew, given the interest by the WC in Adams’ story, the significance of sighting Truly arrive on the landing with THE (not a) policeMAN (not men).


I think here inability to recall in recent interviews may be explained by the passage of time.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Terry W. Martin on Fri 23 May 2014, 7:26 pm

So, whether or not any of the girls saw B & T arrive at the fourth floor, if there was a person Baker saw walking away from the stairs that he called to stop - and whom Truly then vouched for - why did no one else on the floor notice this fellow? (the fellow other than B&T)

Or did they?

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by greg parker on Fri 23 May 2014, 8:05 pm

Colin Crow wrote:
greg parker wrote:
terlin wrote:Weren't there other people on the fourth floor? Someone who could corroborate this supposed encounter there?

A & S had descended from there but I thought there were other people still around.
Terry,

it comes down to interpretation of "come up". In the Stroud document Dorothy Garner saw B + T "come up". To some, that indicates she saw them on the landing. To others (well, me anyway) it's a bit too ambiguous to pin down that easily and could just as well be referring to just seeing them on their way up (that is to say, she saw them coming up but returned to her desk prior to them appearing on the landing. She becomes an even less tenable witness (to me, anyway) once you consider what she told Barry Ernest. When asked about Truly, she could recall seeing him more than once during the day, but couldn't recall where or when. With regard to the 4th floor, she could only recall a cop (or cops) coming up.
There were 6 women left on the floor after Adams and Styles departed. At some point they moved to the west windows and were observed there when Norman, Jarman and Williams came down the stairs shortly after Baker and Truly took the elevator.

As for the Stroud document.

Martha Stroud was an Assistant US Attorney and it would appear quite precise with her language. As written it would imply that she (Stroud) heard Garner make the statement. Also the claim is that Garner  saw “Mr Truly and the policeman” come up. She did not see the girls go down but knew, given the interest by the WC in Adams’ story, the significance of sighting Truly arrive on the landing with THE (not a) policeMAN (not men).


I think here inability to recall in recent interviews may be explained by the passage of time.
Colin, were any of those in the office area able to see or hear anything happening at the stair landing? If not I don't see their relevance.

Re the Stroud document...  claiming Stroud is precise in her writing from this one document sample is not a good idea, imo. What you are saying is, she is precise because the information is accurate and we know the information is accurate because she is precise. Do we have other samples of her writing? Barry Ernest described the Garner information in the Stroud document as having the appearance of an aside. I'll let others decide for themselves: http://mysite.verizon.net/restu5kb/id19.html

And I still say there should be some doubt that Stroud is even directly quoting Garner. Can we explain how that came about? Did Garner accompany Victoria Adams to the US Attorney's office? Did Stroud visit Adams at her place of work? Unless we can pin one of those two options down as definitely having occurred, then it is merely speculation that it is even a direct quote.

Yes, later memories are a problem... but her later memory is what it is and is no more a problem than a document in which some speculation is needed to give it primacy. Her later memory was of seeing one... maybe more... cops come up, with no specific memory of where or when she had seen Truly.

The problem is not with me. It is with Stroud's IMprecision in not specifying the circumstances surrounding her obtaining the Garner information, and with Ernest not asking more questions.

I can only repeat -- given the above - Garner is not someone I'd be relying upon in regard to sorting anything out. Ernest's hyping of her is just that... hype.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

Post by Colin Crow on Sat 24 May 2014, 1:43 am

greg parker wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:
greg parker wrote:
terlin wrote:Weren't there other people on the fourth floor? Someone who could corroborate this supposed encounter there?

A & S had descended from there but I thought there were other people still around.
Terry,

it comes down to interpretation of "come up". In the Stroud document Dorothy Garner saw B + T "come up". To some, that indicates she saw them on the landing. To others (well, me anyway) it's a bit too ambiguous to pin down that easily and could just as well be referring to just seeing them on their way up (that is to say, she saw them coming up but returned to her desk prior to them appearing on the landing. She becomes an even less tenable witness (to me, anyway) once you consider what she told Barry Ernest. When asked about Truly, she could recall seeing him more than once during the day, but couldn't recall where or when. With regard to the 4th floor, she could only recall a cop (or cops) coming up.
There were 6 women left on the floor after Adams and Styles departed. At some point they moved to the west windows and were observed there when Norman, Jarman and Williams came down the stairs shortly after Baker and Truly took the elevator.

As for the Stroud document.

Martha Stroud was an Assistant US Attorney and it would appear quite precise with her language. As written it would imply that she (Stroud) heard Garner make the statement. Also the claim is that Garner  saw “Mr Truly and the policeman” come up. She did not see the girls go down but knew, given the interest by the WC in Adams’ story, the significance of sighting Truly arrive on the landing with THE (not a) policeMAN (not men).


I think here inability to recall in recent interviews may be explained by the passage of time.
Colin, were any of those in the office area able to see or hear anything happening at the stair landing? If not I don't see their relevance.

Re the Stroud document...  claiming Stroud is precise in her writing from this one document sample is not a good idea, imo. What you are saying is, she is precise because the information is accurate and we know the information is accurate because she is precise. Do we have other samples of her writing? Barry Ernest described the Garner information in the Stroud document as having the appearance of an aside. I'll let others decide for themselves: http://mysite.verizon.net/restu5kb/id19.html

And I still say there should be some doubt that Stroud is even directly quoting Garner. Can we explain how that came about? Did Garner accompany Victoria Adams to the US Attorney's office? Did Stroud visit Adams at her place of work? Unless we can pin one of those two options down as definitely having occurred, then it is merely speculation that it is even a direct quote.

Yes, later memories are a problem... but her later memory is what it is and is no more a problem than a document in which some speculation is needed to give it primacy. Her later memory was of seeing one... maybe more... cops come up, with no specific memory of where or when she had seen Truly.

The problem is not with me. It is with Stroud's IMprecision in not specifying the circumstances surrounding her obtaining the Garner information, and with Ernest not asking more questions.

I can only repeat -- given the above - Garner is not someone I'd be relying upon in regard to sorting anything out. Ernest's hyping of her is just that... hype.
The 2 women at the western end of the 4th floor watching the motorcade were in a room that had wire mesh wall, not a solid one. Unfortunately the WC did not include pictures of the 4th floor. One might assume that boxes were stored there. I seem to remember that some information indicated the landing area had some low tables and might have not impeded view of the stairs significantly. I think this was discovered by Tony Fratini on Duncan's forum last year.

Certainly at some point prior to N,J&W descended at least 3 of the women had already moved to the western windows. It is not clear how long they waited after the shots before leaving the 5th floor. 

I do not know if Stroud was precise or not. I claimed it "appeared" she might have been.  She obviously made an attempt to clarify the attribution to Garner in the statement. Certainly the comment should have been further investigated. All the women should have been interviewed to determine what they saw/heard.

There are a number of other indicators that lend weight to the theory that the girls descended before B&T started up. The Stroud document is not a necessity IMO, just another piece that discounts the alternative.

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Re: An Alternative Lunchroom Encounter Scenario

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