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Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

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Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by psellers on Sat 04 Dec 2010, 9:15 am

Lets say Ruby was indeed a misguided patriot who did Jackie a favour and spared her a heartwrenching trial appearance.
Is Ruby's implication required in order to prove a conspiracy to kill the president?
As far as I am concerned, I don't believe Ruby's story on how he got access to basement. Not one bit of it. Still, I can believe that in colusion with the police, he was let in to kill Oswald but not neccesarily to shut him up but for the sake of retribution. In Ruby's eyes at least. He may have been encouraged by police to do what he thought is right. Also set up so to speak.
Now despite this, it is still possible to prove that Oswald was set up as I really suspect he was. The DPD effectively, could still be implicated in the cover up.
There is little doubt that Ruby had ties to the mafia. The strength of these ties are what is up for dispute. I have over time reading up on this matter, developed doubts that Ruby would have been actively involved in the whole JFK assassination. It doesn't make sense that a key player (as he has been made out to be) would risk exposure.
This is my first post so please go easy on me. silent

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by greg parker on Sun 05 Dec 2010, 10:09 pm

psellers wrote:Lets say Ruby was indeed a misguided patriot who did Jackie a favour and spared her a heartwrenching trial appearance.
Is Ruby's implication required in order to prove a conspiracy to kill the president?
As far as I am concerned, I don't believe Ruby's story on how he got access to basement. Not one bit of it. Still, I can believe that in colusion with the police, he was let in to kill Oswald but not neccesarily to shut him up but for the sake of retribution. In Ruby's eyes at least. He may have been encouraged by police to do what he thought is right. Also set up so to speak.
Now despite this, it is still possible to prove that Oswald was set up as I really suspect he was. The DPD effectively, could still be implicated in the cover up.
There is little doubt that Ruby had ties to the mafia. The strength of these ties are what is up for dispute. I have over time reading up on this matter, developed doubts that Ruby would have been actively involved in the whole JFK assassination. It doesn't make sense that a key player (as he has been made out to be) would risk exposure.
This is my first post so please go easy on me. silent

Actually, I think you've made some astute assessments.

Though obviously, if he could be implicated, it would be a slam dunk proof of conspiracy, Ruby's implication (to my mind) is in no way required to prove a conspiracy.

His $40,000 IRS "debt" could be one key to understanding his invovlement as "terminator". Another avenue may be his having possession of HL Hunt propaganda, some of which I believe, discussed heroism.

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by psellers on Sat 11 Dec 2010, 10:18 am

I agree that linking Ruby would knock it out of the park and I am not completely dismissing it.

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by Frankie Vegas on Tue 14 Dec 2010, 6:28 pm

greg parker wrote:
psellers wrote:Lets say Ruby was indeed a misguided patriot who did Jackie a favour and spared her a heartwrenching trial appearance.
Is Ruby's implication required in order to prove a conspiracy to kill the president?
As far as I am concerned, I don't believe Ruby's story on how he got access to basement. Not one bit of it. Still, I can believe that in colusion with the police, he was let in to kill Oswald but not neccesarily to shut him up but for the sake of retribution. In Ruby's eyes at least. He may have been encouraged by police to do what he thought is right. Also set up so to speak.
Now despite this, it is still possible to prove that Oswald was set up as I really suspect he was. The DPD effectively, could still be implicated in the cover up.
There is little doubt that Ruby had ties to the mafia. The strength of these ties are what is up for dispute. I have over time reading up on this matter, developed doubts that Ruby would have been actively involved in the whole JFK assassination. It doesn't make sense that a key player (as he has been made out to be) would risk exposure.
This is my first post so please go easy on me. silent

Actually, I think you've made some astute assessments.

Though obviously, if he could be implicated, it would be a slam dunk proof of conspiracy, Ruby's implication (to my mind) is in no way required to prove a conspiracy.


Its a hard thing to figure Ruby's involvement as far as the 'Pre-Conspiracy' goes. There is not much to link him to Lee Oswald or the assassination. I do however believe he was involved in a post assassination cover up. In fact he is the one I pity the most, I feel he was forced into killing Lee Oswald, whether for debts or Manchurian candidate or just cos the DPD said so and he did as he was told.
I don't feel his patriotic story rings true at all. After reading his WC testimony and subsequent lie detector test (and the events surrounding both) AND his quick death, I believe the man had something to say which never came out. His defence at his trial was horrendous, and he begged Earl Warren basicly (as far as I believe) for his life.
His trial was a gross miscarriage of justice and if he had of gotten his 'fair shake' as he requested I believe we would be a lot richer.
They say the JFK assassination is a puzzle wrapt inside a riddle wrapt inside an enigma. I think Ruby is just the same.

Just my opinions...



His $40,000 IRS "debt" could be one key to understanding his invovlement as "terminator". Another avenue may be his having possession of HL Hunt propaganda, some of which I believe, discussed heroism.

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by psellers on Mon 20 Dec 2010, 8:08 pm

Thanks for your thoughts Frankie. I am not as sympathetic as you are when it comes to Ruby. I agree with you that they hung him out to dry, but he was a murderer and in my eyes, most likely a hired gun. But I'll concede that I almost nearly felt sorry for him while reading the Earl Warren interview.

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by greg parker on Sun 17 Aug 2014, 1:53 pm

bump

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Sun 17 Aug 2014, 4:21 pm

For the record, psellers was me in a past life on this forum 4 years ago.
I am not sure how much has changed in regards to what I think of Ruby and his involvement today. I am still not convinced he and Oswald knew each other. More likely Ruby may have known of Oswald. That can make sense.
One thing is for sure. Ruby was let into that basement by the cops. That is something the HSCA got right.

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by Guest on Sun 17 Aug 2014, 5:54 pm

The Warren Commission was in possession of evidence that Jack Ruby paid off certain (nameless) individuals in the Dallas PD. They didn't pursue the evidence, and ended up ignoring it. Ruby as misguided patriot doesn't wash, he said so himself.

I'm not sure where the question of 'necessary' comes from, the fact is that it exists. The question was "is Ruby's implication necessary", and the answer is no but without it we lose several very damning lines of "proof" into the conspiracy angle.

The Warren Commission painted themselves into a corner, after they were done any evidence of a fourth shot became proof of a conspiracy. I would say in all fairness that the picture of the puff of smoke and the placement of the HSCA acoustic evidence in exactly the same location is far more significant in terms of "proof" of a conspiracy, than anything Jack Ruby may have done or not done.

After all, said conspiracy does not necessarily have to involve Lee Harvey Oswald. He may have been, exactly as he said, a patsy. For example, if the shooters were all either Cubans or CIA (ie "not Mafia or DPD"), then Ruby's significance in pre-assassination conspiracy fades into relatively obscurity, doesn't it?

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by M.Ellis on Mon 18 Aug 2014, 11:15 am

greg parker wrote:
psellers wrote:Lets say Ruby was indeed a misguided patriot who did Jackie a favour and spared her a heartwrenching trial appearance.
Is Ruby's implication required in order to prove a conspiracy to kill the president?
As far as I am concerned, I don't believe Ruby's story on how he got access to basement. Not one bit of it. Still, I can believe that in colusion with the police, he was let in to kill Oswald but not neccesarily to shut him up but for the sake of retribution. In Ruby's eyes at least. He may have been encouraged by police to do what he thought is right. Also set up so to speak.
Now despite this, it is still possible to prove that Oswald was set up as I really suspect he was. The DPD effectively, could still be implicated in the cover up.
There is little doubt that Ruby had ties to the mafia. The strength of these ties are what is up for dispute. I have over time reading up on this matter, developed doubts that Ruby would have been actively involved in the whole JFK assassination. It doesn't make sense that a key player (as he has been made out to be) would risk exposure.
This is my first post so please go easy on me.  silent

Actually, I think you've made some astute assessments.

Though obviously, if he could be implicated, it would be a slam dunk proof of conspiracy, Ruby's implication (to my mind) is in no way required to prove a conspiracy.

His $40,000 IRS "debt" could be one key to understanding his invovlement as "terminator".  Another avenue may be his having possession of HL Hunt propaganda, some of which I believe, discussed heroism.

Agreed. Ruby is not necessary to prove a conspiracy. I am not convinced Ruby was part of any pre-November conspiracy. But when LHO was arrested, it created a rather urgent imperative for someone (or some people) to whack LHO before trial. Ruby was in a position to do that job. But so were others. If Ruby failed, you could expect others to try.

Interesting questions might be what happened to his clubs after he whacked LHO. Did Ruby's financial situation change? Who took over his strip joints?

Ruby's involvement does not tend to prove the mob killed JFK. But it does tend to prove the mob killed LHO. There is no way in Hell Oswald could be allowed to go to trial. What a circus that would have been.

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 18 Aug 2014, 11:41 am

M.Ellis wrote:There is no way in Hell Oswald could be allowed to go to trial. What a circus that would have been.
And had he grasped the reality of this, Oswald would have said a hell of a lot more to the press than he did during the few opportunities he had.

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by capone81 on Mon 18 Aug 2014, 12:10 pm

Good question.

Given Ruby's behavior the weekend of the assassination, I find it difficult to believe that his murder of Oswald was an impulsive act. 

He stalked Oswald enough for us to conclude that it was probably premeditated. Even if he almost missed his last chance to shoot Oswald before he left City Hall. 

Was Ruby part of a conspiracy to kill JFK? I think it's possible but I don't see what role Ruby could've played in a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. 

Was Ruby part of a conspiracy to kill Oswald? I think it's probable. Ruby had connections to the police, the Mob, and the FBI. My feeling is that it was never intended for Oswald to stand trial. I don't believe the murder of JD Tippet and Oswald's arrest were planned. The use of Ruby as Oswald's assassin was probably improvised given the circumstances and Ruby's ability to move freely into and out of City Hall.

Was Ruby just another Lone-nut? It can't be ruled out that Ruby acted on his own and wasn't put up to it by others. I think Ruby acting on his own in killing Oswald certainly makes a conspiracy to kill Kennedy a little less probable.

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by Terry W. Martin on Mon 18 Aug 2014, 12:20 pm

It might have been evidence of a Mafia connection but one should remember the mob was not the only contact Ruby had.

Why should the mob get involved with this thing especially on such short notice?

Would it not make more sense that Ruby did this for his pals on the DPD? They, at least can be demonstrated as complicit whereas the mob cannot.

No need to complicate the matter by bringing in excess suspects.

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by M.Ellis on Mon 18 Aug 2014, 12:55 pm

terlin wrote:It might have been evidence of a Mafia connection but one should remember the mob was not the only contact Ruby had.

Why should the mob get involved with this thing especially on such short notice?

Would it not make more sense that Ruby did this for his pals on the DPD? They, at least can be demonstrated as complicit whereas the mob cannot.

No need to complicate the matter by bringing in excess suspects.

I'm not sure it would be such short notice. Banister & Ferrie did work for Marcello.
Oswald used the address of the building where Banister's office was located.
Oswald's uncle also worked for Marcello.

The thing about court trials in general and murder trials in particular is -
they are unpredictable. Lots of stuff can come out, whether it's true or not.

Names can be mentioned. Witnesses can be called.
LHO's uncle for example, and his relations with Carlos Marcello.
544 Camp Street, Mexico City, Odio, the missing brain, all that stuff would
be useful for defense attorneys.

Either Ruby worked alone or someone hired him.
The sponsors would not be limited to the Mob or DPD.
But if I chose between DPD and Marcello - I'd pick Marcello.

Rather than hire someone like Ruby, DPD could simply get an inmate
to kill Oswald. They had plenty at their disposal.

When the mob leans on you - it can threaten (1)you, (2)your family,
(3)your business, (4) your employees, (5) your dog. And (6) it can reach you
inside a jail. OTOH, it can be quite generous with finances if you do a good job.

If DPD leaned on Ruby - I don't think they'd threaten (2) or (5).
I don't know how they would reward Ruby either.

I could be wrong. That's just where I am right now.
Ruby did give DPD an arm's length. It's possible he helped them out.
But how then did the DPD reward him for his efforts?

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by greg parker on Mon 18 Aug 2014, 1:01 pm

terlin wrote:It might have been evidence of a Mafia connection but one should remember the mob was not the only contact Ruby had.

Why should the mob get involved with this thing especially on such short notice?

Would it not make more sense that Ruby did this for his pals on the DPD? They, at least can be demonstrated as complicit whereas the mob cannot.

No need to complicate the matter by bringing in excess suspects.
FWIW, I agree, Terry.

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Mon 18 Aug 2014, 4:11 pm

capone81 wrote:I don't believe the murder of JD Tippet and Oswald's arrest were planned.

There are two things more than anything else which keep me convinced that Tippit's murder and Oswald's arrest were planned, and that Tippit's murder was connected to the President's assassination:

1). The wallet found in the vicinity of the Tippit murder scene which most likely contained identification for Oswald and Hidell.

2). The Hill of Gerald.

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by Guest on Mon 18 Aug 2014, 7:54 pm

terlin wrote:
Would it not make more sense that Ruby did this for his pals on the DPD? They, at least can be demonstrated as complicit whereas the mob cannot.

No, IMO, this would not make sense. Why would Ruby risk the electric chair for the DPD? By all accounts he was paying them, not the other way around. He would have no reason to risk his life for the cops.

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by capone81 on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 10:12 am

nonsqtr wrote:
terlin wrote:
Would it not make more sense that Ruby did this for his pals on the DPD? They, at least can be demonstrated as complicit whereas the mob cannot.

No, IMO, this would not make sense. Why would Ruby risk the electric chair for the DPD? By all accounts he was paying them, not the other way around. He would have no reason to risk his life for the cops.

Regardless of who may have influenced his decision to kill Oswald, I don't think Ruby believed he would spend the rest of his life in jail for it. I think he thought he might get a light sentence if he made it look like the shooting was impulsive and driven by passion. It's also believed by some that Ruby knew he had Cancer before shooting Oswald. 

The Western Union thing may have been staged IMO. I mean, there were Western Union locations closer to Ruby's apartment but he for some reason chose to go to the one downtown across the street from City Hall.

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by greg parker on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 2:06 pm

The Western Union thing may have been staged IMO. I mean, there were Western Union locations closer to Ruby's apartment but he for some reason chose to go to the one downtown across the street from City Hall.
A agree - very likely staged. The recipients of the money had no need for it. Karin Carlin was in the habit of carrying large quantities of case according to her grandmother who reported her missing at some point post assassination. Also - the FBI actually checked with the landlord in regard to rent owing - that being the reason given for asking for the cash. He said they had been up-to-date. The WC duly called them back and the story changed - now they claimed the money was needed for "medication".

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by Guest on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 3:39 pm

greg parker wrote:
The Western Union thing may have been staged IMO. I mean, there were Western Union locations closer to Ruby's apartment but he for some reason chose to go to the one downtown across the street from City Hall.
A agree - very likely staged. The recipients of the money had no need for it. Karin Carlin was in the habit of carrying large quantities of case according to her grandmother who reported her missing at some point post assassination. Also - the FBI actually checked with the landlord in regard to rent owing - that being the reason given for asking for the cash. He said they had been up-to-date. The WC duly called them back and the story changed - now they claimed the money was needed for "medication".

The money was apparently for heroin. Karen Carlin was a heroin addict (so was Bruce, that's why he was pimping her out on the side). She probably quit when she got pregnant (lots of women do that, in fact we should probably look for a 7-day period when Karen was incommunicado, y'know...)

Five dollars is a bag of heroin, the latinos call 'em "pericos" ("nickels" - even if they cost 20 bucks now, but back in the old days a nickel was a nickel).

Hence the "five dollars" that the Carlins called Ruby about (three times or more, according to the testimony of the various people taking the calls), and that Ruby was annoyed enough about to make her sign a receipt for ('cause he knew what the money was for).

Why would Karen Carlin be carrying large amounts of cash and then asking to borrow five bucks? Doesn't ring true. Karen Carlin called Ruby and practically begged him to work, said she "had to" work, needed money. Ruby said "sorry, club's closed", and that's when she started asking for the money.

It also happens on the street, that certain dealers run out of dope, which means the addicts have to go far and wide for a fix. They might even have to go all the way to the dealer in the next town (Ft Worth), or something.

Have you seen the video interviews with Karen? She was a mouse, that's the way it looks.

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Re: Conspirancy sans Ruby Involvement

Post by Guest on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 3:50 pm

capone81 wrote:
nonsqtr wrote:
terlin wrote:
Would it not make more sense that Ruby did this for his pals on the DPD? They, at least can be demonstrated as complicit whereas the mob cannot.

No, IMO, this would not make sense. Why would Ruby risk the electric chair for the DPD? By all accounts he was paying them, not the other way around. He would have no reason to risk his life for the cops.

Regardless of who may have influenced his decision to kill Oswald, I don't think Ruby believed he would spend the rest of his life in jail for it. I think he thought he might get a light sentence if he made it look like the shooting was impulsive and driven by passion. It's also believed by some that Ruby knew he had Cancer before shooting Oswald. 

The Western Union thing may have been staged IMO. I mean, there were Western Union locations closer to Ruby's apartment but he for some reason chose to go to the one downtown across the street from City Hall.

IMO, if Ruby was indeed the bag man for the mafia, paying off the Dallas Police, then his responsibility in any pre-assassination conspiracy would have been specifically to arrange things with the police. I'm reminded of the story of the teenager in the DPD bathroom, who overheard the three cops talking about blowing the Oswald killing. That rings true, IMO. Ruby was supposed to arrange to have the DPD "make Oswald disappear" somehow, but his people screwed up and he knew it almost immediately, which is why he started into the stalking almost immediately.

In terms of a light sentence, the DPD is not capable of doing that, but the Mafia is. If Ruby had that expectation, it came from the mob and not the cops, IMO. The cops are generally too stupid to be planners (that's why they're cops and not FBI agents), but they're okay at following instructions most of the time. I don't think any DPD cop planned this, that would be a stretch IMO.

There may have been another reason for Ruby to keep returning to the police station, besides the idea of "stalking Oswald", and that is to talk to certain police officers "in person", where a telephone conversation would be inadvisable. Just pulling someone aside and having a 15 second conversation in a low voice could be meaningful in certain circumstances.

I agree that the money order is all too convenient. Didn't Ruby tell George Senator he was going to shoot Oswald on his way out the door? Plus there's that thing about the dogs... It seems that Ruby had made up his mind before he ever left for the Western Union.

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