Requesting info on if the Russians did it or not.

I'm looking for some good feedback or answers from the forum here, especially from Greg Parker if he has the time. There's a researcher that constantly harps about how John Newman agreed with him about Nosenko being was fake, blah blah. Here's his recent post:

***

If it's such an insignificant tiny deal, why then did Newman present a three-hour lecture titled "Spy Wars" on the subject in March of 2018, which lecture was attended (sitting with Newman at the table) by Simpich and Peter Dale Scott, and during which Newman relayed Tennent H. Bagley's findings that not only was Nosenko fake, but that the defector he'd been dispatched here to discredit, Anatoliy Golitsyn, was the real deal?
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/mode/2up

Nosenko told the HSCA that KGB had had nothing to do with Oswald in the USSR.

Do you actually believe that?

Unfortunately, Bill Simpich and his hero, Jefferson Morley, evidently still do.

***

I do tend to fall under the theory Bill S put forth in State Secret and The 12 Who Created LHO's Legend. The reason is simply because it sounds plausible, that there seems to be too many interconnecting dots in those articles for it to sound way off.

But this other researcher refers back to Spy Wars and so on. So is there anything else that anyone knows of to perhaps show that he's right, or if the Bill S. story seems to be more right? Thanks in advance.

JFK Case wrote:I'm looking for some good feedback or answers from the forum here, especially from Greg Parker if he has the time. There's a researcher that constantly harps about how John Newman agreed with him about Nosenko being was fake, blah blah. Here's his recent post:

***

If it's such an insignificant tiny deal, why then did Newman present a three-hour lecture titled "Spy Wars" on the subject in March of 2018, which lecture was attended (sitting with Newman at the table) by Simpich and Peter Dale Scott, and during which Newman relayed Tennent H. Bagley's findings that not only was Nosenko fake, but that the defector he'd been dispatched here to discredit, Anatoliy Golitsyn, was the real deal?
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/mode/2up

Nosenko told the HSCA that KGB had had nothing to do with Oswald in the USSR.

Do you actually believe that?

Unfortunately, Bill Simpich and his hero, Jefferson Morley, evidently still do.

***

I do tend to fall under the theory Bill S put forth in State Secret and The 12 Who Created LHO's Legend. The reason is simply because it sounds plausible, that there seems to be too many interconnecting dots in those articles for it to sound way off.

But this other researcher refers back to Spy Wars and so on. So is there anything else that anyone knows of to perhaps show that he's right, or if the Bill S. story seems to be more right? Thanks in advance.

There are certain people, bits of evidence and events in this case that are best described as the equivalent of "old saws" - living, breathing cliches and boilerplate stereotypes dragged out and propped up by a mish-mash of appeals to authority and facts that are not facts at all, but just conjecture oft-repeated.

The list is extensive - Zapruder film, tramps, Nosenko, False Oswald sightings, Tippit's alleged movements and involvement, at least a dozen CIA officers and agents, the wallet at the Tippit site, Oswald was killed for knowing too much, Ruby did it for the mob and on and on and on...

All that is by way of saying I could not give a flying fuck about Nosenko or debate about Nosenko. Because such debates will not move this case  forward one iota and are really only about the participants themselves and staking their claim in the JFK gold-fields.

The lumbering 8 foot 3 inch Thomas Graves has staked his claim in the KGB quadrant. Let him have it. Let him play in it. Let him harp about John Newman as if that seals anything. The real value of it is not whether his appeals to authority have any merit, it is that it keeps young master Grave occupied.  I hate to think what he would be up to if he didn't have this.

Next I suppose he will be harping about HARVEY Lee Oswald being a Soviet trained sniper sent back instead of LEE Harvey Oswald.

With OSWALD Lee Harvey pulling all the strings on this puppet show...

If you are satisfied you have debunked his nonsense, why not leave it at that and leave him to it?

I will say this much - Graves wrote "If it's such an insignificant tiny deal, why then did Newman present a three-hour lecture titled "Spy Wars" on the subject in March of 2018,"

The average game of American football lasts 3 hours and 12 minutes. The length of time taken to do something has zero correlation to its significance in the scheme of things. 

The significance of a game of football is that some people enjoy watching, some enjoy playing and it provides direct and indirect employment and cash flow. But it can't even do your taxes or make excuses to your wife, let alone get a cold case reopened.

Talking for three hours on Nosenko strikes me much the same way. It may be enjoyable for those doing it and those listening and it may spread a few shekels around, but otherwise, the needle on the JFK case- opener doesn't move.

Bill may be closer, but he is not entirely right either.

But who is?

Greg, thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.

JFK Case wrote:Greg, thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.

Michael, I just read the thread. Leave him to it. Like our friend from Sanibel, he hates being ignored.

No one is buying what he says, anyway. Let him suffer the blowback from farting in the wind.

...blowback from farting in the wind...


Ha funny. Good advice too. Thanks.

If David Lifton is Brian Doyle with a best seller then Tommy Graves is Brian Doyle with just a little bit of self awareness... just enough to realise his own limitations..
And bitter enough to punish the rest of humanity for the realisation.
His " research"(ahem) is research by prejudice.
Sitting in his filthy trailer in La Jolla staring into his crystal ball ( insert appropriate Sanibel/La Jolla/ Larry T related gag) he exercises his almost preternatural powers of divination..his prejudices, his 8 foot frame and his unfeasably well developed right forearm allows him to meditate upon the profoundest mysteries of the Cold War. He can see further simply because he looks through closed eyes .
Succeeding where generations of spies and analysts failed. He sees into the deepest souls of countless Cold War operatives.. intuiting i their secret motivations..
In reality of course he's just a bitter angry unfulfilled crank.
An adolescent trapped in a 8 foot 70 year old body.
His " research"( ahem) style is strangely reminiscent of Fetzer ..if Fetzer had lived in the 50s and had been the McCarthy Emeritus Professor of Kommie Hating at the University of Birmingham Alabama.
While Fetzer liked to scream " its fake!!" Tommy likes to bellow " probable mole" to make his ridiculous theories work( I use theories in the very loosest Juddufki sense of the word)
He knows exactly nothing, less than nothing in fact about Soviet culture and more importantly how their intelligence agencies operated. Blinded by his prejudices and his bias he sees only what he wants to..and reads only what will further confirm those biases 
Mainly apologias written by lifelong CIA operatives..
It's no real surprise he ended up consorting with intellectual giants such as Trotter and Doyle on Macraes Imaginarium..half way house for waifs and strays .
His awe inspiring intellectual jousts with the likes of Brains Clark and Swinging Sandy reminded me of Plato's Symposium or Lorenzo the Magnificents Academy in Renaissance Florence.
Trotter Doyle and Graves ..the greatest Triumvirate since Porto in Cleopatra..Senators Hawtrey Williams and James..
GregsG right. It's a waste of time dealing with the likes of Graves .In his own very special way he's just as detached from reality as Doyle is .or Jimbo Baggins..
Anyone with even the vaguest knowledge of the state of Soviet society( the divisions between the apparatchiks, the Politburo, the Military establishment realises that the idea of the Russians assassinating a sitting American president..inside America.. not to mention the notion that George DeM was a long term illegal.. it's absolutely fucking laughable.
Graves has bought hook line and sinker the treasured Pentagon/ Far Right fantasy of the all seeing omnipotent KGB.
True, they had far better developed humint sources and a very strong analytical capability but they were utterly hamstrung by their masters in the Central Committee.
The KGB played second fiddle and a very poor second fiddle at that to the Central Committee of the Soviet Communist Party.
I remember reading the unpublished manuscript of the colonel who was in charge of the British desk in the late 50s early 60s.he commented upon the rumours that Harold Wilson was a KGB agent.
This, under the Soviet system was impossible. The Soviets were well aware of their desperate weaknesses viz the West .or perhaps Tommy believes there was a missile gap?
The guiding principle of Soviet policy.virtualy from the inception of the Soviet Union, and certainly post 1945 right up to it's collapse can be summed up in two dates.
1812 and 1941
You can't hope to ever properly begin to understand the Soviet mindset ( as far as it's possible for a Westerner) without comprehending the almost totemic powers of those dates. The almost hypnotic effect they exerted
That the Soviet Union survived as long as it did was nothing short of miraculous.
Or perhaps Tommy thinks the Nazi invasion, the destruction of 90% of the Soviet Union's pre war industrial capacity, the loss( at a conservative estimate) of 20illion+ lifes, the annihilation of over 1200medium sized towns was part of the KGBs active measures?
Soviet policy wSw to maintain a cordon sanitaire( that means buffer zone Tommy no not like the buffers on the Choo Choo trains) Right up to Andropov, Chernenko and even Gorbachev this was still the wartime generation. Men who knew what invasion meant 
The were only too aware of far ahead the Americans were( at least a decade, more in the crucial military scientific fields) 
When JFK came to power..when Tommy's ideological brethern were shrieking about missile gaps and the Soviet Union's lead in intercontinental ballistic missiles, the Soviet Union had a grand total of 4..FOUR( thatst one after 3 Tommy..) out of date rockets compared to the American stockpile of 1200.
The Soviet Union was painted rust. The victory in 1945 came at such a price, it pretty much condemned them in the medium term.
But but but I can hear Tommy warble . what about Sputnik? Tsarbomba etc.. Yes, the Soviets had some successes .but on a shoestring. Thanks to the genius of Kurchakov and their esponiage network. They were pulling the bow back as far as possible..to disguise the fact there were barely any arrows..
Yes, the Soviets had a very good intelligence network. But only to a point.
Collection is only half of it. The raw data had to be manipulated to cater to the whims and the increasing paranoia of the leadership.
In the 80s the KGB leadership was instructed to look for signs of the imminent sneak attack certain Politburo members believed was inevitable.
Andropov in particular believed the Americans were preparing for a huge first strike thanks largely to Ronnie Rayguns senile sabre rattling.
You've all probably heard of Able Archer .the NATO exercise the Soviets genuinely believed waz the prelude to Armageddon.
But back to the 50s and 60s.
The Soviets knew how far behind they were, the thought of the Central Committee authorising the assassination is the stuff of Z grade fantasy.
Up there with Sarah Stanton as Prayerman and Tommy's old playmate Paul Trejos gobbledygook about " A Civil War"
Unless Tommy thinks the assassination was a rogue KGB operation? Enabled by the seemingly unending supply of " probable moles" he's conjured for himself..in fact I'm starting to think ol' Tommy's got his " hobbies" mixed up...all those moles sound like the La Jolla Wind in the WillowsW fetishist club Tommy started after spending a weekend in the Sanibel Island version of Mr Toads Wild Ride...the wildest ride since Don Jeffries put on his leather Paul Revere costume and went galloping through Compton CA...
As you can imagine the Sanibel Island version of Mr Toads Wild Ride has been closed many times.. liberal as they are the Sanibel Beastiality Bylaws don't permit great anthropomorphic conga lines of shambling grey ponytailed figures, their heaving guts bursting out their tightly fitting badger corsets..
You have to be 8 foot tall to go on this ride..
LOL
Through the KGB , and to a lesser extent the GRU( but when they wanted some REAL dirty jobs pulled off( insert appropriate La Jolla ism here) they'd turn to their East German, Czech or Bulgarian chums) the Central Committee did just enough to keep the Cold War from getting hot and just enough too to keep it from getting too cold..
Vietnam, Cuba, Latin America, the various African Wars of Liberation and to a limited extent the civil rights/ anti war movement in the States...the Central Committee used their intelligence agencies as a stick to give the Capitalist hive an occasional hit and send the wasps ( or should that be WASPs) buzzing about.
In geopolitical terms the Soviet Union's enfeebled internal structure only permitted them to cause mischief.
Tie the Capitalist pigdogs down, more them in endless little wars .feed the incipient paranoia of certain individuals.
I've wasted too much time already on this..
Tommy's thesis boils down to The Mexico City Mystery Man( or one of them at least) looking vaguely similar to Tovarisch Leonov.
Thaf and a fantastic Fetzeresque daydream involving Armstrong knows how many " probable moles" carrying out a multitude of utterly improbable tasks .
If you disagree with the La Jolla Sybil's devastatingly astute analysis hellh ask you if you love Vladimir Putin or Josef Stalin and make insinuations that sound like they've wafted out the dayroom of a Kansas mental hospital circa 1950..
The ever articulate and insightful Robert Charles Dinner nailed our Tommy... he's nothing but a barnacle.
A nasty hate filled failed hack writer( to understand Mr Graves a little better I suggest you imbibe a stiff double or two then read the first 5 pages of Tommy's Magnus Opus( more like Magnus fucking Pike)..a laughable semi literate attempt at self aggrandisement called the Adventures of Tommy O Pepper. ImI being absolutely serious when I say it's probably one of the worst things iveI ever read. Lifeless. Derivative. Stultifying. Banal. Humourless..I could end up using the whole fucking Thesaurus. The roots of Tommy's hateful misanthropic nature is the fact that he sees himself as a Bohemond or a Napoleon..a charming effortlessly witty historical figure..but yet hesh forced to subsist by exchanging mindless non sequiturs with the likes of Brains Clark, Doyle and Trotter on the fucking Imaginarium.
Unlike Doyle who exists in a fantasylandf of his own creation and blames his failure on James Gordon, us troll punks here at ROKC and a faceless cabal of nefarious Brit JFK forum administrators Tommy has just enough intelligence to recognise his own failings..his sole intent us to punish everyone and anyone else .
His chosen method is adopting the mindset of a rabid McCarthyite inquisitor.
His" argument" is pure bile. Pure hatred. Pure emotion. The sort of unthinking xenophobia that allowed the Cold War, and indeed the so called War on Terror to flourish.
Like weeds amongst red roses.
Armstrong save us all from 8 foot tall hate filled compulsive wankers. 
I myself saw the La Jolla Sybil's hanging outside it's trailer 
Some boys asked him" What do you way Sybil?"
" I want you to take my jar" he said( for he had wasted away to a dusty rasp .r from a lifetime of having .and wanking .and now hung outside his trailer in an empty jar of Sanibel Anti Semetic Sardines.
" Take my jar" he said again" and fling me against Ivanka Trumps wall"
" Fuck off" the boys said, for they were only fourteen" we're off down to Don Jeffries house..hes h promisex to teach us how to deny the holocaust without using our hands"
A newly discovered fragment of the last chapter of Petroniuss Satyricon.
Discovered inside the Great Zapruder film hoax inside the less embarrassing Reader's Wife's Naughty Forties Bumper annual by the.famous Mormon archeologist Swinging Sandy Larsen

Both Tommy and Doyle seem to be attention seekers. Just ignore them and perhaps they will go away.

Alex - thanks for your post. Funny first line - "If Lifton is Doyle." I remember reading DL's book when I was 17 years old and thinking WOW. I'm much older and hope I'm not nearly as stupid as I was back then. Since then, I've always thought Lifton - because he had the "prestige" of being in the public eye back when he was on the PBS documentary about Dallas - blew it by passing on to the public a completely stupid and outrageous claim of the bad guys squirreling away Kennedy's body, throwing it down into the cargo hold on 26000, then into a thrumming helicopter for mad scientists to perform all manner of body alterations.

I've always thought right there, before the age of the internet, is what led to officialdom not taking any conspiracy seriously.