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A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

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A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

Post by Terry W. Martin on Sat 14 Jun 2014, 4:23 am

Years ago, an uncle was shot in the gut and survived quite nicely, so I always suspected some fowl play when Lee took a shot in the gut and died, even though only minutes away from a hospital.

Since then, I have learned that gut shots - especially at point-blank range - can be very messy affairs.

I also learned that "simple shootings" like in the leg can have catastrophic effects. Sean Taylor, an American Football player with the Washington Redskins confronted a burglar several years ago and was shot in the leg. An ambulance was there in a matter of a few minutes but not soon enough to save him. The bullet had severed the femoral artery and he bled to death in less than ten minutes.

Still, reading the autopsy report (located at http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340153/m1/1/) the findings on page six mentioned that the bullet penetrated the spleen, stomach, aorta, kidney, liver, and diaphragm.

Even channeling Alan Specter, I have a hard time picturing the path of the bullet through Oswald. Maybe I'm just reading the report wrong but it does not seem to have taken a plausible journey through the tissues.

Any ideas or thoughts on the matter?

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Re: A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

Post by Stan Dane on Sat 14 Jun 2014, 6:47 am

terlin wrote:Years ago, an uncle was shot in the gut and survived quite nicely, so I always suspected some fowl play when Lee took a shot in the gut and died, even though only minutes away from a hospital.

Since then, I have learned that gut shots - especially at point-blank range - can be very messy affairs.

I also learned that "simple shootings" like in the leg can have catastrophic effects. Sean Taylor, an American Football player with the Washington Redskins confronted a burglar several years ago and was shot in the leg. An ambulance was there in a matter of a few minutes but not soon enough to save him. The bullet had severed the femoral artery and he bled to death in less than ten minutes.

Still, reading the autopsy report (located at http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340153/m1/1/) the findings on page six mentioned that the bullet penetrated the spleen, stomach, aorta, kidney, liver, and diaphragm.

Even channeling Alan Specter, I have a hard time picturing the path of the bullet through Oswald. Maybe I'm just reading the report wrong but it does not seem to have taken a plausible journey through the tissues.

Any ideas or thoughts on the matter?
Is there a doctor in the house?

It's hard to say, Terry. There are so many organs packed tightly together in the abdomen area that I really could hazard a guess. I do know gut shots are very bad, but I don't know enough to speculate here. I'll think about it some more, though.

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Re: A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

Post by Vinny on Sun 15 Jun 2014, 1:12 am

Some have claimed that Oswald was killed in the ambulance by the Policemen who accompanied him.I personally doubt that theory.

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Re: A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

Post by greg parker on Sun 15 Jun 2014, 8:55 am

terlin wrote:Years ago, an uncle was shot in the gut and survived quite nicely, so I always suspected some fowl play when Lee took a shot in the gut and died, even though only minutes away from a hospital.

Since then, I have learned that gut shots - especially at point-blank range - can be very messy affairs.

I also learned that "simple shootings" like in the leg can have catastrophic effects. Sean Taylor, an American Football player with the Washington Redskins confronted a burglar several years ago and was shot in the leg. An ambulance was there in a matter of a few minutes but not soon enough to save him. The bullet had severed the femoral artery and he bled to death in less than ten minutes.

Still, reading the autopsy report (located at http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340153/m1/1/) the findings on page six mentioned that the bullet penetrated the spleen, stomach, aorta, kidney, liver, and diaphragm.

Even channeling Alan Specter, I have a hard time picturing the path of the bullet through Oswald. Maybe I'm just reading the report wrong but it does not seem to have taken a plausible journey through the tissues.

Any ideas or thoughts on the matter?
Terry,

I looked into this some years ago. What I found was quite different, but in sum...

1. There is little bleeding from shots to the stomach
2. An angled shot up through the stomach is almost certainly going to be lethal and could be considered a professional hit. 

Or maybe I'm channeling your new sig... I'll hunt around and see if I can find it all again...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

Post by greg parker on Sun 15 Jun 2014, 9:00 am

Here we go...
http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/injuries_and_poisoning/abdominal_injuries/overview_of_abdominal_injuries.html


The abdomen can be injured in many ways. The abdomen alone may be injured or injuries elsewhere in the body may also occur. Injuries can be relatively mild or very severe.
Doctors often classify abdomen injuries by the type of structure that is damaged and how the injury occurred. The types of structures include the


  • Abdominal wall
  • Solid organs (that is, the liver, spleen, pancreas, or kidneys)
  • Hollow organs (that is, the stomach, small intestine, colon, ureters, or bladder)
  • Blood vessels

    ---------------------

     Bleeding from abdominal injury is mostly internal (within the abdominal cavity).


_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

Post by greg parker on Sun 15 Jun 2014, 12:33 pm

greg parker wrote:Here we go...
http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/injuries_and_poisoning/abdominal_injuries/overview_of_abdominal_injuries.html


The abdomen can be injured in many ways. The abdomen alone may be injured or injuries elsewhere in the body may also occur. Injuries can be relatively mild or very severe.
Doctors often classify abdomen injuries by the type of structure that is damaged and how the injury occurred. The types of structures include the


  • Abdominal wall
  • Solid organs (that is, the liver, spleen, pancreas, or kidneys)
  • Hollow organs (that is, the stomach, small intestine, colon, ureters, or bladder)
  • Blood vessels

    ---------------------

     Bleeding from abdominal injury is mostly internal (within the abdominal cavity).

I should ad that the reason i looked it up was the same reason I look most things up - to verify or refute a claim that someone made - and in this instance it was that the lack of blood pooling on the floor was suspicious.

It's not suspicious though, because as this indicates, it pools inside the abdominal cavity.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

Post by Frankie Vegas on Sun 15 Jun 2014, 4:49 pm

I have read in a few places that it was the treatment they gave Oswald on the way to the hosp or when he got there that did the trick. CPR? Or some sort of massage that always makes stomach bleeding lethal. I recall it saying that whatever treatment it was it applied pressure tot he wrong place making the wound bleed more.
Sorry for the fogginess on this - I have to run. I'll try and scare up a link when I get back.

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Re: A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

Post by Terry W. Martin on Sun 15 Jun 2014, 8:14 pm

Frankie Vegas wrote:I have read in a few places that it was the treatment they gave Oswald on the way to the hosp or when he got there that did the trick. CPR? Or some sort of massage that always makes stomach bleeding lethal. I recall it saying that whatever treatment it was it applied pressure tot he wrong place making the wound bleed more.
Sorry for the fogginess on this - I have to run. I'll try and scare up a link when I get back.

I had read something about that as well but it was not referenced, more of a "he said they said" sort of thing. Having a better source than third person would be nice.

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Re: A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

Post by Frankie Vegas on Sun 15 Jun 2014, 11:28 pm

A heart massage from Dr McClelland.

You'll have to excuse my poor grasp on the details. I have ptsd and my memory is shot. Thats mainly why I stick to activism these days  Rolling Eyes  thank goodness for google!!
http://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2008/november/the-day-kennedy-died

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Re: A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

Post by Frankie Vegas on Sun 15 Jun 2014, 11:31 pm

I asked my facebook crew and got this reply from Bob Gray:

THEY GAVE HIM MOUTH TO MOUTH AND CARDIAC PUMPS , WHICH JUST MADE HIM BLEED THAT MUCH MORE . THEY GAVE HIM 5 PINTS OF BLOOD WHICH ALMOST REPLACED ALL HIS BLD . THE BULLET HIT TWO MAJOR ARTERIES AND HIS LIVER WHICH MADE HIM BLEED LIKE HELL . I THINK CRENSHAW SAID AT THAT POINT NOONE EVER SURVIVED GETTING HIT BY TWO MAJPR ATRERIES BEFORE.

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Re: A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

Post by greg parker on Sun 15 Jun 2014, 11:43 pm

NOONE EVER SURVIVED GETTING HIT BY TWO MAJPR ATRERIES BEFORE.
If all that Bob Gray said is true, including the above, then it mattered not a bit what they did to him by way of mouth to mouth, cardiac pumps or anything else. His chances of survival were practically non-existent anyway.

But then on the other hand, I guess no one was to know that for sure in the basement.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

Post by Frankie Vegas on Sun 15 Jun 2014, 11:55 pm

Bob Gray is a nurse, so I bet he has a decent knowledge about it. I'm going to add all the other links I was given here and then stop hijacking.

http://joburg.eu/en/video/dlt5Bk7kz3U/November-24-1963-Dr-Tom-Shires-chief-of-surgery-announces-Lee-Harvey-Oswald-dead

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hardin.htm




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Re: A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

Post by Frankie Vegas on Sun 15 Jun 2014, 11:57 pm


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Re: A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

Post by greg parker on Tue 17 Jun 2014, 10:46 am

One of the best visual representations of an assassination that I’ve ever seen is the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby. Ruby was strictly pro in that photo showing him pumping bullets into Oswald. One should note that the left hand is drawing back the jacket and the gun has no sooner cleared leather than it starts shooting. The grip on the gun is also interesting and further backs the suspicion of Jack being a pro. He’s using his middle finger to squeeze the trigger and his index finger, the normal shooter’s trigger finger, is pointed right at his target. He shoots where he points. This method is not too well known in the States but the method was SOP with wartime SOE and SIS agents of Britain. Another method advocated by them was the stamping of the right foot and thereby lunging forward and firing at the same time two shots in rapid succession at each target that presented itself.
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/mark-ames/39829/kill-without-joy-hit-man-praises-jack-ruby-as-strictly-pro

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: A Second Magic Bullet? (or is it the third?)

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