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1st Floor TSBD

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1st Floor TSBD

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 29 Jun 2014, 1:45 pm

I found this link provided by Don Roberdeau over at ED:
 
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/po-jfkgkgaz/id/1263
 
The 1st Floor TSBD maps were the most detailed I have seen. I made two crops:
 




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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

Post by casenagell on Sun 29 Jun 2014, 4:32 pm

Outstanding,, thanks for putting them up, Stan.

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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

Post by Redfern on Sun 29 Jun 2014, 6:51 pm

I've just been trying out a few possible lines-of-sight on Paint.

Due to the positions of the supports, the view from the will-call counter towards the foot of the stairs and the associated overhead door was marginal or non-existent.

There is a very restricted view from the west of the small will-call counter area. This vanishes altogether as you move towards the east.

If he was still at the will-call counter, then unless Marrion Baker was looking directly towards the area in question it is easy to see how he would have missed Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles exit the building.

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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

Post by greg parker on Sun 29 Jun 2014, 7:32 pm

Redfern wrote:I've just been trying out a few possible lines-of-sight on Paint.

Due to the positions of the supports, the view from the will-call counter towards the foot of the stairs and the associated overhead door was marginal or non-existent.

There is a very restricted view from the west of the small will-call counter area. This vanishes altogether as you move towards the east.

If he was still at the will-call counter, then unless Marrion Baker was looking directly towards the area in question it is easy to see how he would have missed Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles exit the building.
Thanks Redfern. Good point.

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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Mon 30 Jun 2014, 12:49 am

Nice find, Stan.

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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

Post by Colin Crow on Mon 30 Jun 2014, 12:52 am

The line of sight issues are significant. Even this diagram does not show the shelving that was adjacent to Shelly's office. Unfortunately the photo that gives the best indication is of poor quality in the WC volumes (below).


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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

Post by Colin Crow on Mon 30 Jun 2014, 12:54 am

I have tried to show this shelving and the three counters in the correct positions as best I can below.

Also the line of sight for Baker and Truly is indicated.


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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

Post by beowulf on Tue 01 Jul 2014, 5:47 am

If he was still at the will-call counter, then unless Marrion Baker was looking directly towards the area in question it is easy to see how he would have missed Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles exit the building.

Right and Sandra Styles told Sean that she saw police when she got down to ground floor. Either she was looking at Marrion Baker or her trip from 4th floor to ground floor (with Adams) was delayed long enough for her to see subsequent officers who entered building.

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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

Post by Redfern on Tue 01 Jul 2014, 5:55 am

Colin Crow wrote:I have tried to show this shelving and the three counters in the correct positions as best I can below.

Also the line of sight for Baker and Truly is indicated.

That's a very useful diagram, Colin. From the diagram in the original post, I make the area that could be seen from the will-call counter even smaller.

It undermines the argument that Baker would definitely have seen Adams and Styles had he still been stuck at the will-call counter. I'd say it was unlikely unless he was looking directly towards the north door at the time.

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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

Post by Redfern on Tue 01 Jul 2014, 6:33 am

beowulf wrote:If he was still at the will-call counter, then unless Marrion Baker was looking directly towards the area in question it is easy to see how he would have missed Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles exit the building.

Right and Sandra Styles told Sean that she saw police when she got down to ground floor. Either she was looking at Marrion Baker or her trip from 4th floor to ground floor (with Adams) was delayed long enough for her to see subsequent officers who entered building.
I suspect her memory was faulty so long after the event.

Victoria Adams' recollection strikes me as far more reliable.

Reading through her testimony again, I believe it was altered. 
 
Miss ADAMS - And from our vantage point we were able to see what the President's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract men's attention. Then we heard---then we were obstructed from the view.
Mr. BELIN - By what?
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN - When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you mean now you were on the way out?
Miss ADAMS - While I was on the way out.

Why mention S&L when she wasn't asked about them?  

It looks as if Lovelady was instructed to provide corroboration:

Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.

However, even if we take Lovelady's Warren testimony at face value, wouldn't there be far more people on the first floor by the time he returned than 'a girl'?


The aim was clearly to position Shelley and Lovelady near the elevators, thereby making it look like the two women started to descend the stairs after a delay that allowed Baker and Truly to ascend beyond the 4th floor. In other words, testimony was required that completely discredited Vickie Adams' estimate of the time she took to reach the first-floor.

Adams said she spoke to Joe Molina and Avery Davis with the aim of finding out what had happened. Why wouldn't she ask the first people she supposedly encountered?

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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 01 Jul 2014, 6:43 am

I like your reasoning here, Redfern.

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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

Post by Guest on Tue 01 Jul 2014, 4:30 pm

Thank you Stan. 

I was in Dealey Plaza last week for Gayle Nix's Jackson's book release. I will have some photographs from areas I have not seen much of online (behind the picket fence, behind and in the pergola). 

When I went to the County Records building they told me I could hire a surveyor to find out the floor plan dimensions. I'm glad someone already did.

Here is a rough layout of the 6 and 7 floor I obtained from Gary Mack.

TSBD 6 and 7 Floor

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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 02 Jul 2014, 2:07 am

Thanks Carmine. I look forward to your photos.
 
On the maps, there are 36 columns. Using the scale provided, the columns appear to be 2ft by 2ft. The columns look to be 12ft apart from each other, edge to edge (14ft apart, centerline to centerline). The outer walls appear to be 2ft, making the entire building close 100ft by 100ft, which is what I understand the outer dimensions to be.
 
It would be cool if the information on this map could be input in 3D architectural software to as to better model some of the Baker/Truly/Oswald movement scenarios we've been discussing here. Especially including some of the information and assumptions Colin and others have provided.

Anybody have this capability? Just wondering.

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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

Post by Colin Crow on Wed 16 Jul 2014, 12:34 am

I just stumbled across this picture. It shows Belin and Willens in the TSBD. If I am not mistaken they are standing at the will call counter and the camera is facing towards the back door. This shows the restricted view of the elevators and back door ie the route taken by Adams and Styles, from the way Baker and Truly entered.


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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

Post by Stan Dane on Wed 16 Jul 2014, 2:48 am

Very restricted view. Adams and Styles could have got out without being seen.

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Re: 1st Floor TSBD

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