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Harvey - Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice - Page 3 Empty Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice

Fri 18 Jul 2014, 7:47 am
First topic message reminder :

Despite supporting suppressed evidence and a feasibly small conspiracy, I do not support that most official evidence is tainted. However, key moments and official assertions are deficient in my view. Namely, the assertion by the Commission that Lee Harvey Oswald regularly practiced with his Carcano rifle. i. This idea while supported by many critics of conspiracy is not as reliable as some imagine.

In 1956, Lee Harvey Oswald achieved the rank of Sharpshooter once; officials consider this "a rather good shot". Yet in 1959, Oswald once qualified for the rank of Marksman, and this is considered "a fairly poor shot". ii. This would infer with increased practice and Marine instruction Oswald was able to hone his abilities. Yet it also reveals that without the regular practice or instruction, Oswald feasibly would revert to his prior "poor shot" status. Years pass with little evidence Oswald ever attempted to regain his former proficiency. Officials note Oswald hunting with his brother only three times before he leaves for Russia. iii.    

After his arriving in Russia Oswald did join a hunting club according to Marina, but never went the practice meetings. iv. During his stay in Russia, Oswald hunts "about six times." v. Oswald went on a single hunting trip with Marina; he did not want to take the rifle along. Mariana asserts he took the rifle because "...one of my friends was laughing at him and said," You have a gun hanging here and you never use it. Why don't you bring it along and see if you can use it." vi.

Marina later asserts he sold the hunting rifle upon his return to America. Oswald goes hunting a final time with his brother Robert using a borrowed rifle. During his years since leaving the Marines, he has actually fired a rifle on less than a dozen occasions. This does not resemble the highly proficient status critics attribute to Oswald.   

The Commission states distributor Crescent Firearms shipped the Carcano to Klein's Sporting Goods to have a scope mounted. It was a surplus military rifle, yet it did undergo a refurbishment and was test fired and found to be in working order and priced at 19.95. According to the Commission, the Carcano is shipped to A. Hidell. The rifle is sent to Texas on March 20, 1963. vii. Additionally, considering 2-7 days for delivery, Oswald received the weapon no earlier than March 22. On September 24, the Carcano was stored in Paine's garage wrapped in a blanket. viii. Thus, Oswald only had 6 months in which to practice.

Officials state Oswald fired at General Walker on April 10, 1963. This would imply Oswald had less than 18 days to prepare. He according to the Commission made the attempt and failed. He allegedly made a single missed shot upon the stationary Walker with time to aim. Marina further states Oswald buried and left the rifle multiple times before and after the Walker attack. These burials remove additional time.

Marina stated during testimony to the Commission that Oswald and she had a domestic incident about "10 to 12 days" after the Walker shooting. It occurs three days before they left for New Orleans. ix. Marina does not observe him with the weapon again until the summer of 1963. x. The Oswald family moves to New Orleans. Excluding the move time, Oswald now has just about 5 months left.

In New Orleans, many of his well-documented activities include, handing out fliers for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, yet Oswald never attended a meeting. Federal Bureau of Investigations files reveal the group held all meetings in New York, no chapter existed in New Orleans, and Oswald was not a member. xi. He allegedly went to political meetings, possibly staged a public brawl, and faces arrest. Oswald requests and subsequently was interviewed by an agent of the FBI. No witness observes him firing a rifle in New Orleans.

The Commission states, "It appears from Mariana's testimony that Oswald may have sat on a screened in porch at night practicing with a telescopic sight and operating the bolt." xii. However, the infrequent dry firing that "may have" occurred is not practice. If Oswald dry fired on a consistent basis weekly it would offer advantages. Yet according to the only witness and the Commission's evidence, he did not. According to Marina Oswald when Bureau agents originally ask her in December if she observed Lee "practice" anywhere beyond the porch, Marina answered "in the negative". xiii.

Oswald and his family then return to Dallas, it is now September; Oswald has less than 24 days left to consistently practice. Marina states "Lee didn't tell me when he was going out to practice. I only remember one time distinctly that he went out because he took the bus." xiv. Subsequently Marina testifies, "I don't know where he practiced. I just think the bus goes to, went to Love Field." Commission Lead Counsel Rankin states "So the record will be clear on this...investigation has shown there is one place in the immediate neighborhood where there is gun practice carried on." However, if this is the case, it is merely a single occasion, not regular practice. xv.

Indeed Marina did testify that Oswald stated he was practicing with the rifle. Yet the evidence for this is not present. Consider that Oswald denied his guilt and ownership of the Carcano. Oswald also claimed to be a patsy, thus his many contending statements do infer he is not a credible witness in my view. Reasonably, we cannot value his word over the consistent evidence.

The statement of George De Mohrenschildt similar to Marina relies on Oswald's credibility. xvi We largely have Oswald's word he practiced, and that is not sufficient evidence. The Carcano is stored within a blanket according to Mr. Paine and Marina Oswald. Oswald travels to and from Mexico City and is out of time for practice. 

An FBI interview claimed Oswald was "observed" practicing at a local Dallas rifle range repeatedly in November. However the Commission would later dispel these claims, “...there was other evidence which prevented the Commission from reaching the conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald the person these witnesses saw." xvii Oswald takes the concealed rifle and the morning of the assassination feasibly opens the blanket. Fibers noted on the Carcano found by investigators match the shirt Oswald is wearing on November 22, 1963. These fibers are clean and infer recent material transfer. xviii This forensic evidence supports the rifle has remained covered.

Despite the prior refurbishment Commission officials questioned, "Was the firing pin of the rifle replaced? Does the FBI know the availability of spare parts?" J. Edgar Hoover advises, "The assassination rifle has been examined and nothing was found to indicate that the firing pin had been replaced." Hoover also noted "the firing pin has been used extensively as shown by wear on the nose...further, the presence of rust...this rust would have been disturbed had the firing pin been changed subsequent to the formation of rust...the firing pin and spring are well oiled and the rust present necessarily must have formed prior to the oiling of these parts." xix

The residue and use the Commission attributes to Oswald was also from prior use. Evidence and testimony agree Oswald cleaned the weapon far more than he used it. Commission evidence demonstrates Oswald did not regularly use or practice with the Carcano. This inconsistency supports Oswald is a deficient sniper.  

 Sincerely,

C.  A. A. Savastano

i. Report of the President's Commission, Chapter IV, the Assassin, Oswald's Rifle Capability, p. 195


ii. Report of the President's Commission, Chapter IV, the Assassin, Oswald's Marine Training, p. 191


iii. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter IV, Oswald's Rifle Practice Outside the Marines, p. 192


iv. Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume V, Testimony of Mrs. Lee Oswald, p. 405


v.  Report of the Pres. Com, Chapter IV, p.192


vi. Hearings of the Pres. Com., Vol. V, p. 406


vii. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter IV, p.121


viii. Ibid, p. 128


ix. Hearings of the Pres. Com., Volume V, p.392


x. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter IV, p.128


xi. Department of the Treasury Document, Secret Service Phone Report of ASAIC George Jukes, November 25, 1963, p. 0369 


xii. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter IV, p.128


xiii. Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume XXIII, Commission Ex. No. 1789, 1790, pp. 402,403


xiv. Hearings of the Pres. Com., Volume V,   p. 397


xv. Ibid, p. 398


xvi. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter IV, p. 192


xvii. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter VI, Investigation of Other Activities, pp. 318-320 


xviii. Report of the Pres. Com., IV, p.124-125


xix. Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume XXVI, Commission Exhibit 2974, p. 455


Last edited by Carmine Savastano on Wed 05 Nov 2014, 8:48 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Oswald did recieve his rank of Sharpshooter first, then Marksman I double checked. Double source listing removed.)

M.Ellis
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Harvey - Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice - Page 3 Empty Re: Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice

Tue 12 Aug 2014, 8:48 pm
Yeah, 2 noob's. But we start with little facts that lead to inferences, some better than others. The best inferences are inescapable - like LHO stamping '544 Camp Street' on leaflets. 

I don't think much has been published about Hoover's relations with Banister. I've learned from you that Banister wasn't paying his rent. That adds to the picture of the general deterioration of Guy Banister. 

But I think Banister was important because he delivered LHO to more able people. 

I don't dismiss anybody - Mob, US agencies or MIC. Texas military contractors made a lot more money than the Mob in the Vietnam War. 

Bell Helicopter of Fort Worth, had over 5,000 helicopters shot down. At 1-2 million USD per Huey - that's a lot of dough.
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Harvey - Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice - Page 3 Empty Re: Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice

Wed 13 Aug 2014, 3:41 am
Banister was involved with the Permindex crowd. So was Clay Shaw.

This bit has a lot: http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/2013/01/the-men-that-dont-fit-in-interview-with-roderick-a-mackenzie-iii/

This is a story that's been told by more than one person. Everyone, including Marcello, was getting Permindex money.

And Permindex. was somehow related to the "Texas Mafia", which is this group of people: http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKgroup8F.htm

Somehow there's a Canadian connection for the money, ostensibly to allow them to do things they couldn't "legally" do from the US.

I'm not sure what the status is, on Mac Wallace's fingerprint. Last I heard someone had a 14-point ID, but apparently no other "experts" have jumped in to corroborate that. A quickie run through the NCIC should be able to corroborate or not, shouldn't it? So.... what are we waiting for? Smile
M.Ellis
M.Ellis
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Harvey - Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice - Page 3 Empty Re: Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice

Wed 13 Aug 2014, 11:47 am
nonsqtr wrote:Banister was involved with the Permindex crowd. So was Clay Shaw.

This bit has a lot: http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/2013/01/the-men-that-dont-fit-in-interview-with-roderick-a-mackenzie-iii/

This is a story that's been told by more than one person. Everyone, including Marcello, was getting Permindex money.

And Permindex. was somehow related to the "Texas Mafia", which is this group of people: http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKgroup8F.htm

Somehow there's a Canadian connection for the money, ostensibly to allow them to do things they couldn't "legally" do from the US.

I'm not sure what the status is, on Mac Wallace's fingerprint. Last I heard someone had a 14-point ID, but apparently no other "experts" have jumped in to corroborate that. A quickie run through the NCIC should be able to corroborate or not, shouldn't it? So.... what are we waiting for? Smile

Thanks for the Permindex info. 

There is a quote from the The Men Who Don't Fit In article: 
--------------------------
"Command area on the second floor of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD): Cliff Carter, Carlos Marcello, Jack Rubenstein, George Reese;




In the alley behind the fence and above the so-called Grassy Knoll: Clyde Foust, John Ernst, Jack Grimm, Joseph P. Dugan;




Under the bridge in case the president was not shot, and above the railroad area (these people were never used): 
Charles Harrelson, Percy Chauncy Holt, Charles Frederick Rogers, a man called “Dimitri” from ACCC;




Roof of the County Records Building: Harry Weatherford, Roger Craig, Richard Scalzetti, Michael Victor Mertz;




Sixth floor of the TSBD in the nest and other setup areas: Ruth Ann Martinez, Lee Harvey Oswald (under a spell according to Mac), Mac Wallace, Lawrence Loy Factor;




The Dal-Tex Building (the team was supposed to be on top but had problems): Eugene Hale Brading, Frank Fiorelli (Sturgis), Raphael “Chi Chi” Quintero, Richard Cain.
--------------

I find the idea of Carlos Marcello being inside the TSBD on the day of the assassination completely insane. Surely he's not suggesting that. Is he? Maybe he means one of Marcello's men?
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Harvey - Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice - Page 3 Empty Re: Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice

Wed 13 Aug 2014, 4:18 pm
Well, y'know... "loose thinking". The guy's all over the map with these names. The reason I provided the link is because of the quote about "not knowing where the money came from", and "thinking you're working for the military when in reality you're working for someone else". The idea that "everyone, even Carlos Marcello" was drawing from the military coffers.

Other people have said this about Oswald, right? That he "didn't know who was running him" and he "thought he was working for someone else".

The connection with the vending machines is especially interesting. Jack Ruby has a very close connection with vending machines, he was apparently in the business at one point. And, the Texas companies selling them had to have a ground game, and at the time that ground game most likely involved the Mafia. The guy with the slot machines (Ruby) could also be the guy with the vending machines, that would make perfect sense.

We know the CIA had "front companies", some of which were issuing paychecks (like Double-Check Corporation, which paid David Ferrie and others). And, the Mafia had the same - in fact, one of Carlos Marcello's financial patterns was to use friends and neighbors as "front people" in real estate transactions, they'd buy the land in their own name and just kind of "manage" it, for which they'd receive some cash - AND - many of these pieces of real estate ended up being used as safe houses at some later point - the job of the "owner" being to be ready, and to run errands for the people while they're there.

None of this was a secret, some of it had been uncovered by Kefauver way back in the mid-50's. The Mob had "front corporations" too, and some of them were issuing paychecks too. If the Mob started an official-sounding front company with a name like "Patriot Aeronautics" they could easily convince people they were military - because Roselli had a military uniform and a military cover and access to military transporation, And according to Tosh Plumlee who supposedly flew Roselli to Dallas from Miami via New Orleans, they were using Roselli as part of an "abort" team, to locate and apprehend any possible shooters.

The Secret Service had, just days earlier, hired Bernardo de Torres as part of a team of 20 "friendly Cubans" to look for potential assassins in Miami's Cuban community. Apparently, they used a slightly different approach in Dallas.
M.Ellis
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Harvey - Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice - Page 3 Empty Re: Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice

Thu 14 Aug 2014, 10:34 am
I've been reading DeMohrenschildt's "I Am A Patsy" manuscript. I think Greg Parker posted a link to it. Whoever posted that link -- a big thank you.  I could not stop reading it until the world intruded yesterday. 

In it, there is a very odd reference to target practice in Chapter 16. LHO apparently shot at leaves on trees. That makes no sense in an urban area. So that probably refers to dry-firing. 

DeMohrenschildt and his wife were visiting the Oswalds in their new second floor Neely Street apartment. It was within two weeks of the attempt on Gen. Walker, in early 1963. DeMohrenschildt's wife Jeanne spotted the rifle in a closet. The scope was dangling and not screwed in. 

http://22november1963.org.uk/george-de-mohrenschildt-i-am-a-patsy-chapter16

-------------
“Look! Look!” called Jeanne excitedly. “There is a rifle there.”
We came in and I looked curiously. Indeed there was a military rifle there of a type unknown to me, something dangling in front.


“What is that thing dangling?” Asked Jeanne.
“A telescopic sight,” I answered.


Jeanne never saw a telescopic sight before and probably did not understand what it was. But I did, I had graduated from a military school.


“Why do you have this rifle here?” Jeanne asked Lee.


“Lee bought it,” answered Marina instead, “devil knows why. We need all the money we have for food and lodging and he buys this damn rifle.”


“But what does he do with a military rifle?” asked Jeanne again.
“He likes shooting at the leaves.”


“But when does he have time to shoot at the leaves and the place?” asked Jeanne curiously. 


“He shoots at the leaves in the park, whenever we go there.”
----

"I am a Patsy" is a fascinating read. I still don't know who LHO was. I understand George DeMohrenschildt a lot better though. And it's very interesting how Ruth Paine shows up just as Jeanne and George are going off to Haiti.
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Thu 14 Aug 2014, 10:58 am
Well, so then, we still have two possibilities for Oswald. One is, the bungling can't-do-anything-right guy with the unscrewed dangling rifle scope. But... "rifles that can be easily disassembled", according to Robert Morrow, so the possibility remains that Oswald was some kind of evil genius who was maybe in the WerBell crowd or something, getting both advanced weaponry and training, and somehow able to hide it even from people like George and Jeannie.

But... George and Jeannie were supposed to be "Friendlies", weren't they? If they allegedly helped the Oswalds get set up back in the US, and if they allegedly helped LHO get the job at Jaggars, then wouldn't Oswald have seen them as "friendlies"? Do you think Oswald was aware of DeMohrenschildt's interests and activities in Haiti and in the Dominican Republic?
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Thu 14 Aug 2014, 11:05 am
M.Ellis wrote:I've been reading DeMohrenschildt's "I Am A Patsy" manuscript. I think Greg Parker posted a link to it. Whoever posted that link -- a big thank you.  I could not stop reading it until the world intruded yesterday. 

More for you to spin out on, M.Ellis. its absurd really.

Jeanne DeMohrenschildt WC Testimony:


Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?
Mr. JENNER. You say---
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle.
Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle that you saw?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It looks very much like it.
Mr. JENNER. And was it standing in the corner of the closet?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You want me to show you how it was leaning? Make believe I open the closet door this way. And the rifle was leaning something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Right against the wall?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and the closet was square. I said, what is this?
Mr. JENNER. It was this rifle?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. It looks very much like it, because something was dangling over it, and I didn't know what it was. This telescopic sight. Like we had a rifle with us on the road, we just had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. And I saw something here.
Mr. JENNER. I say your attention was arrested, not only, because when the closet door was opened by Marina you saw the rifle in the closet--you saw a rifle?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That surprised you, first?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course.
Mr. JENNER. And then other things that arrested your attention, as I gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't know what it was.
Mr. JENNER. But your attention was arrested by that fact, because it was something new and strange to you?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were accustomed to your husband having weapons?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had only one rifle on our trip. But my father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby.
Mr. JENNER. And being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you have indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not seen a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? Had you seen a rifle with the bolt action that this has?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't ever know. I read it was bolt action but I would not know.
Mr. JENNER. But you did notice this protrusion, the ball sticking out?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall. The only thing there was something on it. It could be that it was the telescopic sight or something, but it was something on the rifle. It was not a smooth, plain rifle. This is for sure.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you saw that, and being surprised, were you concerned about it?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I just asked what on earth is he doing with a rifle?
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "Oh, he just loves to shoot." I said, "Where on earth does he shoot? Where can he shoot?" When they lived in a little house. "Oh, he goes in the park and he shoots at leaves and things like that." But it didn't strike me too funny, because I personally love skeet shooting. I never kill anything. But I adore to shoot at a target, target shooting.
Mr. JENNER. Skeet?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I just love it.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange to have someone say he is going in a public park and shooting leaves?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. But he was taking the baby out. He goes with her, and that was his amusement.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say that?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was his amusement, practicing in the park, shooting leaves. That wasn't strange to me, because any time I go to an amusement park I go to the rifles and start shooting. So I didn't find anything strange.
Mr. JENNER. But you shot a rifle at the rifle range in these amusement parks?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Little 22?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know what it was.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange that a man would be walking around a public park in Dallas with a high-powered rifle like this, shooting leaves?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know it was a high-powered rifle. I had no idea. I don't even know right now. Is it a high-powered rifle? Or just a regular one-bullet rifle, isn't it?
Mr. JENNER. It is a one-bullet rifle, but it is a pretty powerful one.
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't know that. What caliber is it?
Mr. JENNER. 6.5.
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't understand. We had shotgun with us.
Mr. JENNER. Had anything been said up to this point in your acquaintance with the Oswalds of his having had a rifle, or a shotgun, in Russia?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion of any hunting in Russia?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In fact, we never even knew that he was a sharp-shooter or something. We never knew about it.
M.Ellis
M.Ellis
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Harvey - Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice - Page 3 Empty Re: Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice

Thu 14 Aug 2014, 11:34 am
nonsqtr wrote:Well, so then, we still have two possibilities for Oswald. One is, the bungling can't-do-anything-right guy with the unscrewed dangling rifle scope. But... "rifles that can be easily disassembled", according to Robert Morrow, so the possibility remains that Oswald was some kind of evil genius who was maybe in the WerBell crowd or something, getting both advanced weaponry and training, and somehow able to hide it even from people like George and Jeannie.

But... George and Jeannie were supposed to be "Friendlies", weren't they? If they allegedly helped the Oswalds get set up back in the US, and if they allegedly helped LHO get the job at Jaggars, then wouldn't Oswald have seen them as "friendlies"? Do you think Oswald was aware of DeMohrenschildt's interests and activities in Haiti and in the Dominican Republic?

According to "I am a Patsy", DeMohrenschildt and LHO talked at length about his upcoming move to Haiti. He mentioned Ruth Paine in the manuscript too. He didn't know her. But he mentioned she showed up at a party, dying to meet Marina - not Lee - just as the DeMohrenschildt's are saying goodbye to them. 

LHO got a new set of handlers that night. That's what I think. I don't believe DeMohrenschildt's interest in LHO was only motivated by friendship. The further I read into it, the easier it is to conclude he was a temporary handler. 

DeMohrenschildt was an interesting guy. He appeared to despise Marina. His manuscript is full of insults toward her. But he claimed to like LHO quite a lot. And to the end, he didn't believe LHO pulled the trigger. 

Paul Klein2 wrote:
M.Ellis wrote:I've been reading DeMohrenschildt's "I Am A Patsy" manuscript. I think Greg Parker posted a link to it. Whoever posted that link -- a big thank you.  I could not stop reading it until the world intruded yesterday. 

More for you to spin out on, M.Ellis. its absurd really.

Jeanne DeMohrenschildt WC Testimony:


Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?
Mr. JENNER. You say---
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle.
Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle that you saw?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It looks very much like it.
Mr. JENNER. And was it standing in the corner of the closet?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You want me to show you how it was leaning? Make believe I open the closet door this way. And the rifle was leaning something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Right against the wall?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and the closet was square. I said, what is this?
Mr. JENNER. It was this rifle?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. It looks very much like it, because something was dangling over it, and I didn't know what it was. This telescopic sight. Like we had a rifle with us on the road, we just had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. And I saw something here.
Mr. JENNER. I say your attention was arrested, not only, because when the closet door was opened by Marina you saw the rifle in the closet--you saw a rifle?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That surprised you, first?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course.
Mr. JENNER. And then other things that arrested your attention, as I gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't know what it was.
Mr. JENNER. But your attention was arrested by that fact, because it was something new and strange to you?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were accustomed to your husband having weapons?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had only one rifle on our trip. But my father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby.
Mr. JENNER. And being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you have indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not seen a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? Had you seen a rifle with the bolt action that this has?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't ever know. I read it was bolt action but I would not know.
Mr. JENNER. But you did notice this protrusion, the ball sticking out?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall. The only thing there was something on it. It could be that it was the telescopic sight or something, but it was something on the rifle. It was not a smooth, plain rifle. This is for sure.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you saw that, and being surprised, were you concerned about it?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I just asked what on earth is he doing with a rifle?
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "Oh, he just loves to shoot." I said, "Where on earth does he shoot? Where can he shoot?" When they lived in a little house. "Oh, he goes in the park and he shoots at leaves and things like that." But it didn't strike me too funny, because I personally love skeet shooting. I never kill anything. But I adore to shoot at a target, target shooting.
Mr. JENNER. Skeet?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I just love it.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange to have someone say he is going in a public park and shooting leaves?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. But he was taking the baby out. He goes with her, and that was his amusement.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say that?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was his amusement, practicing in the park, shooting leaves. That wasn't strange to me, because any time I go to an amusement park I go to the rifles and start shooting. So I didn't find anything strange.
Mr. JENNER. But you shot a rifle at the rifle range in these amusement parks?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Little 22?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know what it was.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange that a man would be walking around a public park in Dallas with a high-powered rifle like this, shooting leaves?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know it was a high-powered rifle. I had no idea. I don't even know right now. Is it a high-powered rifle? Or just a regular one-bullet rifle, isn't it?
Mr. JENNER. It is a one-bullet rifle, but it is a pretty powerful one.
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't know that. What caliber is it?
Mr. JENNER. 6.5.
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't understand. We had shotgun with us.
Mr. JENNER. Had anything been said up to this point in your acquaintance with the Oswalds of his having had a rifle, or a shotgun, in Russia?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion of any hunting in Russia?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In fact, we never even knew that he was a sharp-shooter or something. We never knew about it.

It's absolutely bizarre that the questioner did not ask Ms. DeMohrenschildt if Marina meant LHO was dry-firing at leaves or firing off live ammunition. Everyone appears to assume LHO took his baby to the park and started firing live rounds at leaves on trees. 

That sounds very implausible to me. Firing live rounds in a park where other families are picnicking? That's crazy. 


But so far, "I am a Patsy" has not referred to any rifle practice at the firing range where LHO supposedly was a customer. 
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Thu 14 Aug 2014, 12:23 pm
Its absolutely bizarre. I always felt they were trying to tie the rifle to Oswald a bit too hard with all that talk about the telescope. Even his practicing with it. He is even made out as a gun lover. A maniac who takes his baby out for a stroll in the park with his rifle in tow so he can practice shooting leaves.
steely_dan
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Harvey - Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice - Page 3 Empty Re: Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice

Thu 14 Aug 2014, 4:20 pm
His Marine records show he went from mediocre to abysmal. As a Radar Operator, he would not require the same amount of intensive target practise that a frontline combat GI would need. To gain a pass he had to achieve a minimum score, which possibly needed "bumping", so as not to throw a spanner in the works regarding his upcoming travelling episode.

_________________

You ain't gonna know what you learn if you knew it....... confused


Checkmate.

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Harvey - Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice - Page 3 Empty Re: Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice

Fri 15 Aug 2014, 9:11 am
On the last page of "i am a Patsy", George DeMohrenschildt writes this. 
---
"I cannot say that I never was a CIA agent, I cannot prove it. I cannot prove either that I ever was. Nobody can." *
---
Like LHO, DeMohrenschildt was angry at the FBI. He hated them. But he doesn't have much bad to say about the CIA or Allen Dulles. It's certainly worth reading even if the target practice explanation makes no sense. 

The DeMohrenschildts were in Haiti - far from the life of LHO, by the times Oswald allegedly visited a rifle range in Dallas. (And LHO was allegedly in Mexico City when he was supposedly at that rifle range too.)

*http://22november1963.org.uk/george-de-mohrenschildt-i-am-a-patsy-chapter28
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Fri 15 Aug 2014, 9:57 am
M.Ellis wrote:On the last page of "i am a Patsy", George DeMohrenschildt writes this. 
---
"I cannot say that I never was a CIA agent, I cannot prove it. I cannot prove either that I ever was. Nobody can." *
---
Like LHO, DeMohrenschildt was angry at the FBI. He hated them. But he doesn't have much bad to say about the CIA or Allen Dulles. It's certainly worth reading even if the target practice explanation makes no sense. 

The DeMohrenschildts were in Haiti - far from the life of LHO, by the times Oswald allegedly visited a rifle range in Dallas. (And LHO was allegedly in Mexico City when he was supposedly at that rifle range too.)

WC Testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt:

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think of other friends that he had. I cannot recall, myself, a friend of his, actually. I could not say that. He could be my son in age, you see. He is just a kid for me, with whom I played around. Sometimes I was curious to see what went on in his head.
But I certainly would not call myself a friend of his.


Opening line of "I am a Patsy by George S. De Mohrenschildt:

I am a patsy! I am a Patsy! These last words of my friend, Lee Harvey Oswald still ring in my ears and make me think of the terrible injustice inflicted on the memory of this "supposed assassin".

It is definitely worth reading. I read I am a Patsy a few years ago but wasn't sure what to make of it. I found myself a little at odds with it due to being familiar with George De Mohrenschildt's WC testimony. At the end I just thought he hung Oswald up to dry and played his part.

His memoir may have been an opportunity to right a wrong or to simply make some money. I am not really sure. Maybe both. What is clear is that he knew him better than he led on in his testimony. Like you said, I think he quite liked Oswald. He marveled at his proficiency with the Russian language. This is completely at odds with what Ruth Paine observed about Oswald. She intimated he was pretty hopeless at it.
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