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This May Shock and Amaze Ya

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This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by Guest on Sat 22 Jan 2011, 12:41 pm

But We Ain't Heard the Whole Truth Yet From Wesley Frazier

The September 1977 HSCA interview of Wesley Frazier raises several new questions regarding his knowledge of incidents pertaining to Lee Harvey Oswald, the President's assassination and subsequent events of November 22, 1963.

The brunt of this study will focus on Frazier's first few hours after the assassination. It turns out that, after 47 years, little is known, and that his activities have been intentionally obfuscated.

We will then digress into related evidence that reveals alarming contradictions with the official story as presented by the Warren Commission, and raises the spectre of Frazier's possible complicity in the assassination.

The Official Timeline

Up from Huntsville looking for work, 19-year-old Wesley Frazier had started as an order-filler at the Book Depository in mid-September. He had moved into the home of his 30-year-old sister, Linnie Mae Randle, at 2439 West 5th St. in Irving, down the block from Ruth Paine's home, where Marina Oswald was staying.

Frazier took an extra bedroom and shared the Randle home with Linnie Mae's husband Bill and their three young daughters Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue. HIs mother, Essie Mae Williams, up on an extended visit from Huntsville, moved in with her husband David Williams in mid-October. But David soon experienced a recurrence of heart failure. As Frazier recounted in his testimony (II, p. 211): "They were there a week before he got sick... he was in the hospital 3 or 4 weeks, somewheres, 4 or 5 weeks" before November 22nd.

Frazier's testimony gives us almost nothing as to his activities or whereabouts after he left the Book Depository. That timeline can be pieced together from the joint police reports of detectives Gus Rose, Richard Stovall and John Adamcik (XXIV, pp. 291-293) and Rose's HSCA interview.

2:15 Frazier returns to the Randle home
He testified (II, p. 236) he was dismissed from the Depository "between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly"
BALL: Then you went on home?
FRAZIER: Right.

3:00 Rose, Stovall & Adamcik park nearby the Paine home in an unmarked car; await arrival of sheriffs Harry Weatherford, J.L. Oxford and Buddy Walthers in a County Car

3:30-4:45 Search conducted of Paine home

4:45 While the detectives are loading evidence into the County Car, Linnie Mae Randle drives by and, when asked what she knew, tells them that her brother Wesley had brought Oswald to work that morning; she saw Oswald carrying a long paper package; "SHE WAS SUSPICIOUS. She said her brother was visiting her father at PARKLAND HOSPITAL, and WE COULD REACH HIM THERE."

5:45 Adamcik brings Ruth & Michael Paine and Marina Oswald into the Forgery Bureau Office at DPD HQ

6:00 Rose phones Parkland, but no sign of Frazier
Rose traces him to Irving Professional Clinic, contacts Irving detective J.A. McCabe

6:30 McCabe arrests Frazier at Clinic, takes him to Irving Police Department

7:00 Rose & Stovall arrive at Irving Police Dept.; accompany McCabe & Frazier to Clinic, search Frazier's car

7:30-8:30 Rose, Stovall, McCabe & Frazier proceed to Randle home; search conducted; confiscate British Enfield .303 rifle and partial box of ammunition
Randle contacts Baptist minister Rev. Campble

9:00 Frazier, Randle, Campble taken to Homicide & Robbery Office at DPD HQ; Frazier and Randle provide signed affidavits (XXIV, pp. 209, 223)

9:30 While Rose & Stovall are driving Frazier, Randle (and apparently Campble) back to Irving, they receive radio request to return to DPD HQ for a polygraph test

10:00 Frazier & Randle give FBI statements to SAs Richard Harrison & James Bookhout (WCD 5, pp. 316, 320)

11:20 R.D. Lewis arrives at DPD HQ to give polygraph to Frazier

Doubts About Randle and the Enfield

When Randle spoke with the detectives about 4:45, she had no apparent reason to have been suspicious of Oswald that morning, even if she had seen him carrying a long brown package. Because she disclosed in her FBI interview that same night that Frazier had told her Oswald "was fixing up his apartment" and he'd come over to Irving that Thursday because Ruth Paine "was going to give him some curtain rods."

But her suspicion is a mere subtlety in comparison with her outright deception that Frazier could be found at Parkland Hospital. If Frazier was actually at the Irving Clinic at 4:45, Randle insured that the detectives would not stop by there on their way back to Dallas, and she had a chance to alert her brother via a phone call. But if Frazier was still at the Randle home at 4:45, Randle insured that there was no chance the detectives could search it then, and effectively take Wesley by surprise. And if he was indeed home, it's certain that sister & brother decided the best course of action was for Wesley to drive the 4.5 miles out to the Clinic- she would then look like she'd simply been mistaken about the location of David Williams.

Gus Rose realized he'd been deceived about 6:00 and it comes as no surprise that Frazier was thereafter arrested as a possible accomplice to Oswald. Randle, by providing false information to a police officer, had also placed herself under a cloud of suspicion. It is worth noting that she worked in the nursing profession.

*

Rose & Stovall confiscated the British Enfield .303 and half a box of bullets during their early evening search of the Randle home. The rifle was described on the property clerk's invoice (DPD JFK Archives, Box 1, Folder 7, Item 47) as having a 21 3/4" barrel and a peep sight (this is not a lens, but typically a thumb-sized mount on the trigger-end of the barrel; this short tube with a narrow puncture allows the shooter to better focus his eye on the front sight and target). But some basic information was never reported by the Dallas Police.

Was the Enfield ever photographed? When was the last time it was used? If while hunting, who were his companions? Was it ever used out at a shooting range? Who else knew that he owned it?

These questions are not superfluous. Because Garland Slack recounted for the FBI that Oswald had been at the Sports Drome Rifle Range in Grand Prairie on November 17th, and that he'd been brought there by a man named 'Frazier' from Irving, Texas (XXVI, p. 681).

And, once the alleged assassination weapon was carried out of the Depository, WBAP radio broadcast its first news description: "Crime Lieutenant J.C. Day just came out of that building. Reported British .303 rifle with telescopic lens."

Day had just been up on the 6th floor when two deputy sheriffs identified the weapon as a 6.5 Mauser. Where on earth did he get the idea he could call it a British .303? Why did he mis-identify it for the reporter?

The Sixth Floor Museum Interview

We now fast-forward to Frazier's 2002 interview with Gary Mack for the Sixth Floor museum's Oral History project. Frazier's memory was remarkably keen during the first hour. He remembered the name of the catering truck- Industrial Catering Service- that used to come by the Depository at mid-morning. He recalled an incident where Billy Lovelady and some co-workers were laughing about a comment made regarding Lovelady's facial resemblance to Oswald.

But during the second hour, while recounting his activities after leaving the Depository, Frazier had a "memory merge" that must be interpreted as intentional.

(25:00)
MACK: When you got home, who was there? Your sister, was she there with kids, or-?
FRAZIER: Well, I didn't go directly home. Because what I had- what I did was that, uh, I stopped by the hospital where my stepfather... they were treating him, I think, for heart failure... He had gone into the hospital I think a day or two before Friday. Or he'd been there several days... a hospital located at Irving Boulevard and Pioneer.

(27:45)
[A nurse had come into the room and told Frazier he had a phone call. She said,] 'You'll have to come out to the nurse's station and take the call.' Well, I opened the door and proceeded to the nurse's station. And at that time I was met suddenly by two detectives from the Dallas Police Department. They were detectives Rose and detective Stovall... They told me they were taking me downtown Dallas... And they had already been searching in my car. 'Cause I remember looking in the back seat- the back seat had been pulled out and I asked 'em, I said, 'What have you been doin' in my car?' And they said, 'Well, we've been searchin' your car.'

(32:20)
[Frazier thought that this had all occurred between 1:30 and 2:00]
MACK: Is it possible your memory might have distorted the times of this?...
FRAZIER: I could be wrong, but I don't think so, Gary. Because, um- because I had left work. And I heard about the President being pronounced dead [on the car radio]... I remember going out to the hospital there. And I wasn't there very long- 10 or 15 minutes at the most, and they were there. But how they got my name and how they got on to me, I don't know.

(36:36)
MACK: So they took you from the hospital up in Irving all the way to downtown Dallas.
FRAZIER: Downtown Dallas.

Frazier was off by several weeks as to his stepfather's hospital stay. By "mis-remembering" that David Williams had just gone in, Frazier's motive for visiting him looks more natural and compelling. By "mis-remembering" the arrival time of Rose & Stovall at the Clinic, and their search of his car, Frazier managed to avoid any discussion about his time at the Irving Police Department, the search of the Randle home, the confiscation of his Enfield rifle- and what he actually did with himself from 2:00-5:00

Was it Barbara Streisand, in "The Way We Were", who sang, "What's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget?"

The HSCA Interview

The available 2-hour portion of the 4-hour 1977 interview with the HSCA's Jack Moriarty and Maxwell Day touches only briefly on Frazier's experiences that afternoon and early evening of the 22nd. He admits that he was taken to the Irving Police Department (III-6): "The confession center. And it was a small sit-down there. And that's what I said all the police was there at the time."

When he recounts the search at the Randle's, Frazier makes it sound as if he was home at the time and the police barged in (III-10). But we know that Frazier returned to the premises accompanied by detectives Rose, Stovall & McCabe.

MORIARTY: Police arrived. And then what happened?
FRAZIER: They walked right up.
MORIARTY: They opened up- they opened up and, uh- they walked right in and they looked in. So you're exposed to this- exposed to what the people would do once inside there- in your home.
FRAZIER: That's right. They would just come right in and search. They would come right in there... they never did use the proper right or authority.

One can hardly blame the detectives for not tracking down a judge and procuring a search warrant at 7:30 PM to search the home of a possible accomplice to the assassination; they had just searched the Paines' without one (HSCA Rose, p. 20).

But this incident illustrates Frazier's propensity for portraying himself as "just a victim of circumstance, it isn't fair" (IV-4). There is little doubt that he was psychologically intimidated while in Dallas Police custody. Yet the blame for this is not entirely theirs. For there is more to Frazier than his persona of an innocent country boy caught up by happenstance in the crime of the century. There are several critical details about which he has yet to come clean.

Frazier stated he didn't learn Oswald was in custody until he was on his way out of Irving that eveing- acting as if he had been oblivious to all the news reports that afternoon (III-6):
MORIARTY: Now, at this time when they had you in, uh, briefly in Irving- did they tell you that they had Oswald?
FRAZIER: No, they didn't tell me that.
MORIARTY: When was the first time that you found that Oswald was, uh, was a patsy?
FRAZIER: Uh, I found that out- I found that out, uh- let's see, either right before I went over to Dallas. Or when I worked over in Dallas. In other words, they didn't tell me right at first.
(III-Cool:
FRAZIER: And then they all pointe out that he did it.
MORIARTY: And that was after you had, uh- that you went to Irving.
FRAZIER: Hm-hmm.
MORIARTY: This was after- you knew at that time- you knew that Oswald was being-
FRAZIER: Framed.
MORIARTY: Did you suspect that they ahd that in mind?
FRAZIER: Uh, no. I didn't, uh- when I came home and all- we're all in- in the same room as I am sitting like this, you know?

*

Researcher Ian Lloyd points out a glaring contradiction between Frazier's HSCA interview (III-Cool and his Commission testimony (II, p. 221):

FRAZIER: No, I didn't know that he'd been caught. But I will tell you this. I knew that he had the rifle.
MORIARTY: Hm-hmm.
FRAZIER: He did. And I said to myself, I said, 'Oh, my God.' That was the first thing right there on the [Depository] steps.

BALL: In driving back and forth with Oswald did you ever hear him- did you ever talk about guns?
FRAZIER: No, sir; he never did.
BALL: Did he ever tell you he owned a gun?
FRAZIER: No, sir.

Researcher Frank Nelson points out that Frazier is the only known witness to an odd occurrence just before the assassination- the escort motorcycles backfiring as they rounded the Houston/Elm corner. In the Sixth Floor Museum interview (Hour One, 55:27) Frazier relates that "they were kind of clowning around. Cuttin' their motorcycles off and on to make 'em backfire."

Frazier's HSCA interview mentions that he was "very good friends" (III-1, IV-15) with two of these escorts. Apparently he formed these friendships after arriving in the area that September. If these escorts were not acting a bit juvenile at the Houston/Elm corner, then their behavior suggests that they knew what was about to transpire- and were alerting the snipers and/or acclimating the crowd to popping noises.

*

Conspiracy theorists are divided as to whether Oswald brought just a little lunch bag to work that morning- as he maintained to Captain Fritz- or whether he brought in a two-foot package of "curtain rods"- which Frazier had consistently maintained form the beginning. The general consensus is that Oswald couldn't have taken even a broken-down 40" Mannlicher-Carcano to work that morning.

The following excerpt (IV-18) adds a bombshell detail about what Oswald may have carried (this was mixed among several duplicate recordings on the second side of the Archives' Tape 3; it seemed to fit with the content of Tape 4).

DAY: Two feet.
FRAZIER: Right. Somewhere around two feet, you know, give or take an inch here or there. And I told them that I only- only glanced.
DAY: At the package.
FRAZIER: I didn't look at the package. I didn't look at it. This meant the briefcase. Where we've been going here. That pretty well describes the briefcase. It was only- probably two feet.

In the next revelation, also on IV-18, we learn that Frazier stood next to Oswald in a DPD lineup- an incident never before reported. "Two feet" also happened to be the distance between them.

FRAZIER: He was standing next to me. He was pretty close to somewhere around two inches- where they could measure this thing.
MORIARTY: Two feet.
FRAZIER: Two feet?
DAY: It was two feet.
FRAZIER: Right. And- and Mr. Oswald was there and he told me that they made a positive identity down there. And I said- I said, 'Lee.' It was made several times. He insisted. He said, 'You drove the car.' He said he owned Dallas. He believed everything they told him about the package. He said he wasn't interested in other people or anything with people. He believed in no one. He said he actually told myself that.

SHIELDS' HSCA Interview

It's all well and good, and seemingly credible, that Frazier parked his '54 Chevy by the Houston St. warehouse that morning, and spent a short while revving his engine to charge up the battery; Oswald then proceeded to walk the 400 yards across the railroad yard to the Book Depository, carrying his package, "roughly 50 feet in front of me" (II, p. 228) or "a good 100 yards or 150 yards" (IV-10).

But warehouse worker Edward Shields, interviewed by the HSCA a month after Frazier, recalled an incident that casts complete doubt on this railyard episode. Shields was part of a 3-4 man skeleton crew that remained behind at the Houston St. warehouse (WCD 87, p. 4) when the book company moved into 411 Elm St. over the winter of '62-'63.

Shields was on the 1st floor of the warehouse at the time that Frazier arrived in the parking lot, and he recalled (pp. 14-15):

I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...
Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.

Shields' recollection puts Oswald's railyard walk with the package in the fiction section. It suggests that Frazier informed Oswald he was going to spend some time charging his battery, and they agreed to drop Oswald off beforehand at the Depository- whether with or without a package, we don't know.

And it opens up the possibility that it was Frazier himself who carried a package across the railyard into the Depository. Nor can the possibility that Frazier's afternoon at the Randle home included wiping down his Enfield rifle- this cannot be unequivocally dismissed.

*

Wesley Frazier alone is cause to convene a grand jury investigation into JFK's assassination. A further recorded interview, challenging him in the many weak areas of his stiry, might be "just what the doctor ordered"- what Dallas DA Craig Watkins is looking for to justify a formal legal inquiry.

Work will continue in the meantime deciphering the content of the first 2 hours of his HSCA interview, which should give us a lot more information aboput his midnight polygraph test.

My opinion is that, were a grand jury begun, Frazier should be granted immunity from prosecution- letting him tell the whole truth without fear of reprisal, no matter what his complicity, if any, in the murder and treason of November 22, 1963. My hunch is that his secrets are jaw-dropping.

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by greg parker on Sat 22 Jan 2011, 5:12 pm

Richard Gilbride wrote:But We Ain't Heard the Whole Truth Yet From Wesley Frazier
Frazier's testimony gives us almost nothing as to his activities or whereabouts after he left the Book Depository. That timeline can be pieced together from the joint police reports of detectives Gus Rose, Richard Stovall and John Adamcik (XXIV, pp. 291-293) and Rose's HSCA interview.

Richard,
After being taken in as a possible accomplice, doesn't it seem more than passing odd that there is nothing in the records showing he was even so much as questioned about this time-frame? Establishing a time-line for suspects is one of the first tasks undertaken. For the DPD to leave out hours of activity by Frazier, sez something, but I'm not entirely sure what...

Richard Gilbride wrote:Frazier took an extra bedroom and shared the Randle home with Linnie Mae's husband Bill and their three young daughters Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue. HIs mother, Essie Mae Williams, up on an extended visit from Huntsville, moved in with her husband David Williams in mid-October. But David soon experienced a recurrence of heart failure. As Frazier recounted in his testimony (II, p. 211): "They were there a week before he got sick... he was in the hospital 3 or 4 weeks, somewheres, 4 or 5 weeks" before November 22nd.

He had been in there weeks yet Linnie thinks he's in Parkland. This would be at least semi-plausible if he had been in Parkland, but had been moved to the Irving Clinic on the 22nd... but since there is no suggestion of that, all I can conclude is that no one could accuse her of being daddy's girl... That's a bit suspect

Richard Gilbride wrote:4:45 While the detectives are loading evidence into the County Car, Linnie Mae Randle drives by and, when asked what she knew, tells them that her brother Wesley had brought Oswald to work that morning; she saw Oswald carrying a long paper package; "SHE WAS SUSPICIOUS. She said her brother was visiting her father at PARKLAND HOSPITAL, and WE COULD REACH HIM THERE."

The impression I get is that she was not coincidently just driving past, but had gone there specifically to talk to the cops. After reading your post, I'd go even further by saying she was "heading them off at the pass" specifically to buy time.

Richard Gilbride wrote:Frazier's memory was remarkably keen during the first hour. He remembered the name of the catering truck- Industrial Catering Service- that used to come by the Depository at mid-morning.

Ain't that something? He could remember the name of the catering truck in 2002 -
despite claiming to have never used it, yet during his 1964 testimony, he could not recall the name of the employment agency he was enrolled with and who he claimed referred him to the TSBD.

His HSCA interview also reveals he was not screened for background by the TSBD because the agency had already done it. So who screened Oswald...?

Richard Gilbride wrote:Frazier was off by several weeks as to his stepfather's hospital stay. By "mis-remembering" that David Williams had just gone in, Frazier's motive for visiting him looks more natural and compelling. By "mis-remembering" the arrival time of Rose & Stovall at the Clinic, and their search of his car, Frazier managed to avoid any discussion about his time at the Irving Police Department, the search of the Randle home, the confiscation of his Enfield rifle- and what he actually did with himself from 2:00-5:00

Excellent analysis.

Richard Gilbride wrote:It's all well and good, and seemingly credible, that Frazier parked his '54 Chevy by the Houston St. warehouse that morning, and spent a short while revving his engine to charge up the battery; Oswald then proceeded to walk the 400 yards across the railroad yard to the Book Depository, carrying his package, "roughly 50 feet in front of me" (II, p. 228) or "a good 100 yards or 150 yards" (IV-10).

But warehouse worker Edward Shields, interviewed by the HSCA a month after Frazier, recalled an incident that casts complete doubt on this railyard episode. Shields was part of a 3-4 man skeleton crew that remained behind at the Houston St. warehouse (WCD 87, p. 4) when the book company moved into 411 Elm St. over the winter of '62-'63.

Shields was on the 1st floor of the warehouse at the time that Frazier arrived in the parking lot, and he recalled (pp. 14-15):

I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...
Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.

Shields' recollection puts Oswald's railyard walk with the package in the fiction section. It suggests that Frazier informed Oswald he was going to spend some time charging his battery, and they agreed to drop Oswald off beforehand at the Depository- whether with or without a package, we don't know.

One of the others interviewed by the HSCA gave evidence suggesting that Frazier and Oswald came to work together EVERY morning. And in fact, the only reason that Givens would have for asking Frazier where his "rider" was would be if they arrived together in Frazier's car every day. Recall that the official history has the usual day LHO arrived with Frazier as Monday - not Friday.

And what is missing (as far as I can tell) from the records? Anything at all about how Oswald usually got to work and returned home. No questions during interrogations and no investigation with bus company (apart from that one bus ride during his "escape" - and that one was most likely fictional). Think of the details that may have been available in such an investigation? Did he sit with anyone on the bus? What did he talk about? What did he read? Was no investigation done of this because it was KNOWN that he rode every day with Frazier?

Richard Gilbride wrote:Researcher Ian Lloyd points out a glaring contradiction between Frazier's HSCA interview (III-and his Commission testimony (II, p. 221):

FRAZIER: No, I didn't know that he'd been caught. But I will tell you this. I knew that he had the rifle.
MORIARTY: Hm-hmm.
FRAZIER: He did. And I said to myself, I said, 'Oh, my God.' That was the first thing right there on the [Depository] steps.

BALL: In driving back and forth with Oswald did you ever hear him- did you ever talk about guns?
FRAZIER: No, sir; he never did.
BALL: Did he ever tell you he owned a gun?
FRAZIER: No, sir.

In Devil's Advocate mode: this isn't necessarily contradictory. He could theoretically know Oswald owned a rifle without having been told by Oswald. In reality, I do not believe Oswald ever had a rifle.

Richard Gilbride wrote:Frazier's HSCA interview mentions that he was "very good friends" (III-1, IV-15) with two of these escorts. Apparently he formed these friendships after arriving in the area that September. If these escorts were not acting a bit juvenile at the Houston/Elm corner, then their behavior suggests that they knew what was about to transpire- and were alerting the snipers and/or acclimating the crowd to popping noises.

Interesting. Several years ago, a lady posted on McAdams' group that she, as a young girl, had been in DP with her mother during the assassination and that it had been the talk all morning about how Mexicans had been setting off crackers along the parade route in the hours leading up to... I tried in vain at the time to try and find some corroboration in the records, but couldn't find any mention of it. The closest we get is that some ear witnesses describe how they thought the first shot was fireworks, while others thought it was a backfire.

Richard Gilbride wrote:And it opens up the possibility that it was Frazier himself who carried a package across the railyard into the Depository. Nor can the possibility that Frazier's afternoon at the Randle home included wiping down his Enfield rifle- this cannot be unequivocally dismissed.

The first part is an idea that's not entirely alien in this forum alien but your work really helps nail it down. He may have wiped down his rifle, but since it was his, the absence of any prints may in itself look suspicious. If Frazier had anything to be fearful of, then there could have been any amount of other evidence that needed attending to...

Great work Richard!

Though I had doubts about Frazier being the key to a GJ; I think there is enough material now to support such an idea.


Last edited by greg parker on Sun 23 Jan 2011, 8:24 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by ianlloyd on Sun 23 Jan 2011, 3:16 am

Great work Richard & Greg!!!

It also seemed odd to me the way Randle seemed so desperate to distance herself from Ruth Paine and the possibility that she (Randle) suggested that Oswald try the TSBD for work.

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by Guest on Sun 23 Jan 2011, 9:50 am

A couple items from the Sixth Floor Museum interview I didn't get to. The Depository basement has been of great interest to me and I was intrigued by Frazier's recollection beginning at (10:05) of Hour Two:

I realized that I hadn't eaten my lunch. Now, I know this may sound strange. but I was hungry. A very young boy, you're usually hungry. So I went back into the building and had- had gone down to the basement and I set down and I was eating my lunch. And there were several plainclothes detectives and there- I remember a policeman, a uniformed policeman. He came by, he asked me how long I'd been there and had I seen anybody.

And I said, 'I didn't see anybody unusual down here.' I said, 'I heard somebody over-' Uh, there was two ways you could go down to the basement. It was, uh, right there by a belt that went up to the meter where Junior put the postage on the packages. And then over right by where Billy Lovelady would write up the freight bill of ladings. There was an entrance that you could go down to the basement that way. It was a stairway.

There's a further snippet about this at (16:15):

MACK: You were down in the basement when some investigators, police or whatever, came in.
FRAZIER: Yes.
MACK: You were all by yourself down there?
FRAZIER: Yes. I was all by myself. And they asked me, 'Had I seen anyone come down into the basement while I was there? Or did I see anyone go up the stairway there by the belt?' And I said, I told 'em, I said, 'No, sir.' And I told 'em, 'I did hear somebody over on the stairway but I never could see what- could see anybody over there.' But I didn't- I couldn't see anybody. So it was, so- I don't know but maybe it was just, uh, one of the investigators or policemen in the searching of the building.

I imagine some of these plainclothes detectives were the ATF agents who arrived at the front entrance about 12:40 and helped search the building- H.P. Clary, Billy L. Gaunt, Carl R. Booth Jr., Charles D. Mickerson, Charles L. Bivuht, Chesley Jones, Frank L. Ellsworth and T.W. Puller Jr. (who was from Albuquerque, New Mexico- the others lived right in Dallas or Mesquite, Texas).
I'm unaware of any further documentation/information regarding these Alcohol Tobacco Tax investigators, whose office was at 912 Commerce Street.
But I had to wonder whether they were the military men Frazier mentioned (III-4) encountering on the 1st floor during the early aftermath of the assassination.
I've no idea who the uniformed policeman was who talked to Frazier in the basement.

And then there's the story about Frazier seeing Oswald walking down Houston Street beside the Depository 5-10 minutes after the assassination, beginning at about the (12:40) mark. Frazier looks Gary Mack right in the eye for much of the 3 minutes he tells him about this sighting.

MACK: Have you heard how he subsequently left the building?
FRAZIER: Well, there's- there's been a lot of rumors. Uh, when- when we were- when we were outside the building, before we'd gone in, uh, I remember seeing Lee come from the dock- uh, the dock area and walk up the street beside the Texas School Book Depository building. And, there was so many things going on. And I saw him as he walked up and he went across Houston Street. And I thought he may have been going to get him a sandwich or something. So I really didn't think anything about it. And I lost him in the crowd and I don't know what happened from there.
MACK: How long after the assassination do you think this was?
FRAZIER: Oh, probably 5 to 10 minutes, probably.
MACK: So you remember seeing him briefly coming down Houston Street along the side of the building?
FRAZIER: Yes.
MACK: So that told you he must have gone out the back door by the loading dock.
FRAZIER: Yes, by the loading dock. That's- that's exactly right.
MACK: And did you see him cross Houston Street?
FRAZIER: Uh, he crossed Houston Street and then started across Elm Street. And I turned because someone said something to me and I turned to answer them and then when I turned back and looked in the direction he was gone.
MACK: Could he have come out the front door of the Depository?
FRAZIER: No.
MACK: No. So, how far away from him do you think you were when you saw him?
FRAZIER: The closest I got to him, when he- when he was walking up the, uh- along the side of the Texas School Book Depository comin' from the dock area- was probably- probably 10, 12 feet.
MACK: Do you remember anything about him? Did he look-?
FRAZIER: No, he didn't look any different or act any different than he did. There were so many people and so much chaos and everything all around by then that, uh, I thought that maybe he was just going somewhere to get him a sandwich.
MACK: And how was he dressed? Do you remember? Did he have his t-shirt on, or did he have his shirt on, or-?
FRAZIER: Uh, he had a jacket on.
MACK: His jacket.
FRAZIER: He had his jacket on that day.

But this story doesn't jive at all with Frazier's testimony (II, p. 236) that he was in the basement at 12:35- "I was sitting eating my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes."
Nor with WFAA reporter Pierce Allman's encounter with Oswald in the front lobby, which can be accurately placed at 12:33

At the Grand Jury, we'll probably get to hear how Frazier saw Bigfoot petting the Loch Ness monster What the?

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Frazier's LHO sighting

Post by ianlloyd on Mon 24 Jan 2011, 12:33 am

Richard,

Maybe Frazier's recollection of seeing LHO outside the TSBD has been mis-remembered following such a long time - If he did see him, it was clearly after BWF had come up from the basement, say, what 10 minutes or so after the assassination? He seemed to have been conscious of having to be back at work by 12:45. Does Allman say that he saw Oswald leave the TSBD? I don't recall that. If he didn't see LHO leaving, then there's no reason to believe that he did leave by the front entrance - maybe he walked back through the TSBD, bumped into Shelley somewhere along the way who told him that it didn't look like there'd be any more work done that day so LHO continued out through the back after collecting his jacket, seeing that perhaps the front of the TSBD was too busy to bother trying to get through.

Obviously, this scenario brings up a whole host of issues, some of which are:

1. If he did collect his jacket (that BWF says he was wearing) - what happened to it and which jacket did Kaiser find?
2. Why didn't anyone else see LHO wandering around the first floor up to 10 minutes following the assassination?
3. Where did he see Shelley?
4. Why didn't BWF admit to seeing him in previous statements/testimony?
5. It makes a bit of a dent in the official story.

No doubt there are others...

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by Guest on Mon 24 Jan 2011, 8:26 am

Ian,

My opinion is that this Houston St. sighting of Oswald is a red herring, a false lead to send researchers wasting time & energy to fit this incident into scenarios of what happened, and a false anchor on which to base reasoning on related events. This allegation helps take the focus off of Frazier's time in the basement, and I think he concocted it especially for the Sixth Floor Museum interview.

He acknowledged at the end of Hour Two (55:36) that "I've been told a lot of things. And I've read a lot of things." Undoubtedly he's aware that the Warren Report has Oswald leaving the building at 12:33 and boarding a bus several blocks away at 12:40. There are no known witnesses to Oswald's movements during these 7 minutes.

Wouldn't it be intriguing to volunteer a previously-unknown sighting during this timeframe?

WCD 354 tells us that "On 11-22-63 the following was reported to Forrest V. Sorrels, by Captain Will Fritz, Dallas Police Department.
Lee Harvey Oswald in the first interview subsequent to his arrest, stated that as he was leaving the Texas School Book Depository Building, two men (one with a crew cut) had INTERCEPTED him at the front door...

Pierce Allman & Terrence Ford were walking into the front lobby, simultaneously Oswald was walking out of the front lobby

(This encounter didn't get written up in Fritz's, Bookhout's or Hosty's interrogation reports. Kelley reported that "Oswald said he pointed toward the pay phone in the building and that he saw the man actually go to the phone BEFORE HE LEFT.")

DPD Patrolman Welcome Barnett estimated he'd posted himself at the front entrance at 12:33 (VII, p. 543). James Jarman came down the rear stairs at close to 12:36, and stated in his HSCA interview (pp. 2-3): "we ran to the front of the building and as we was running out of the building the police stopped us, he told us to come back inside... after we was inside the building after that, I heard that Oswald had come down through the office and come down the front stairs and he was stopped by the officer that had stopped us..."

i.e. Barnett had stopped Oswald

"And, Oswald was coming out the door and [Billy Lovelady] said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. [Shelley] told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs."

We get further corroboration from WCD 385, p. 129, where Barnett acknowledges that "several reporters- newspaper, radio and television- appeared at the entrance he was guarding..."

And one of these reporters wrote the following blurb which appeared in the November 23 Sydney Morning Herald, which considering the time difference, was probably typed up by 3:00 PM 11/22 Dallas time at the latest:
"During the frantic search for the President's killer, police were posted at exits to the warehouse. Police said a man, whom they identified as Oswald, walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman that 'I work here' and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away, they said."

So here we have Barnett telling a reporter that he let Oswalld walk away. No surprise that there's no police report from Barnett.

And the FBI's James Bookhout attempted to cloud the details of Oswald's exit, in his SOLO POST-DATED interrogation report (Warren Report, p. 619), stating that Oswald stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY and thereafter went home. He stated that, in his opinion, based upon remarks of BILL SHELLEY, he did not believe there was going to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building."

I don't pretend to know whether Wesley Frazier was in the vicinity of the front steps at 12:33, but I consider the possibility that Oswald then returned to the domino room to get his jacket as remote.

(By the way, I don't think we'll get a definitive answer as to what happened next until CBS film footage of the 12:40ish Rambler episode is unveiled- I've heard from an impeccable source that this exists.

Lee Farley's recent brilliant research at the Education Forum- well worth downloading- "Oswald and CAB 36 William Whaley's Story in Tatters" and "Oswald Bus 1213 McWatters' and Bledsoe's Story in Tatters"- convinces me that A) Oswald left the Depository B) this same Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater C) Anything Oswald did between A and B is speculative farao

But, anyways, my interpretation of the best-available evidence puts Oswald at the bottom of the Depository entrance steps at 12:33

What's a crying shame, as Greg points out, is that there's nothing in the record as to how Oswald normally commuted from his rooming house to the Depository. You'd think they'd have found at least one regular rider of the 7:20 or whatever bus from Oak Cliff to downtown Dallas.

I just checked a map, and see that Irving Boulevard goes all the way from Irving to downtown Dallas; it's only a mile sidetrip down the R.L. Thornton Expressway, and 1/2-3/4 miles to the rooming house or nearby rendevous point- no real stretch, to consider that Frazier might have given Oswald a ride to work every day.

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by casenagell on Mon 24 Jan 2011, 8:24 pm

Thanks for this, Richard...Frazier is becoming of great interest to me...I'll hope to post some questions when I've got them outlined enough...

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by Guest on Tue 25 Jan 2011, 12:16 pm

Hope I don't get stumped cat Anything my cat could comprehend and respond to would be OK. I have implicit trust in the name Nagell !!

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by casenagell on Tue 25 Jan 2011, 1:23 pm

God, I so want to change that..lol...
Steve, mate, call me Steve. Smile

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by greg parker on Tue 25 Jan 2011, 1:30 pm

Steve,

don't worry about Richard (Stumpy the Cat) Gilbride. He's our current token Yank. Most likely, he'll wonder off when he realises that he can't order pizzas here. confused

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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by greg parker on Tue 25 Jan 2011, 11:39 pm

Here we go, Richard.

From James Jarman's HSCA interview:

Maxwell: Did he associate with any particular person there?
Jarman: No one but -- I can't think of the dude's name, the one that brings - that brought him to work all the time.

I could dismiss that as just an innocent slip of the tongue except that on subsequent pages there is this exchange:

Maxwell: And you didn't see him [Oswald] anymore after that?
Jarman: No. And the dude he used to ride with Wesley -- I can't think of his name.
Maxwell: Does he still work in the book department [sic]?
Jarman: Wesley, no. I don't think he's here now --
Maxwell: Did they come to work there together?
Jarman: Yes, he always brought Oswald to work.

If the above is true, then it makes perfect sense that someone might ask Frazier where his rider is on a Friday.
----
I wouldn't put too much faith in what Lovelady told Jarman regarding Oswald being allowed to leave. There are reports that he was asked to "stand aside" (or words to that affect) after being cleared by (I believe) Shelley. This would have been while they were organising to obtain contact details off the employees.
----
Jarman made another interesting comment to Maxwell and Brown. He was being questioned in regard to general gossip after the assassination and he has Frazier telling everyone the curtain rod story...

Brown: Is there anything else that you recall? You said he came in with Oswald and his package?
Jarman: Right. When Oswald got out of the car he brought the package inside with him into the dressing room.
Brown: Into -- through the dressing room.
Jarman: Right.
Brown: Now did he say what Oswald did with the package once he got it into[sic]?
Jarman: No. But he was questioned about that package after [it] happened and they searched for that package and couldn't find it.

Now I'm tempted to suggest the time line of certain events may not be what is claimed.

What time did Linnie Mae spill the beans about the bag?
When does the bag shown to Frazier late that night make its debut into the evidence stream?

Let's keep the momentum going. I really believe this is solvable...

_________________
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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by ianlloyd on Wed 26 Jan 2011, 12:55 am

greg parker wrote:Here we go, Richard.

From James Jarman's HSCA interview:

Maxwell: Did he associate with any particular person there?
Jarman: No one but -- I can't think of the dude's name, the one that brings - that brought him to work all the time.

I could dismiss that as just an innocent slip of the tongue except that on subsequent pages there is this exchange:

Maxwell: And you didn't see him [Oswald] anymore after that?
Jarman: No. And the dude he used to ride with Wesley -- I can't think of his name.
Maxwell: Does he still work in the book department [sic]?
Jarman: Wesley, no. I don't think he's here now --
Maxwell: Did they come to work there together?
Jarman: Yes, he always brought Oswald to work.

If the above is true, then it makes perfect sense that someone might ask Frazier where his rider is on a Friday.
----

Interesting that, on page 23 of Norman's HSCA testimony, he says:

Well, I would say, I guess, because he rode to work with him. I don't know how many times he rode to work with him.

Quite apart from the fact that he says that Bonnie Ray Williams went up to the 5th floor with him & Jarman and that BRW ate his chicken there, with them!?!?

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by Guest on Wed 26 Jan 2011, 2:32 pm

Thought-provoking stuff in the extreme. I might need a couple of days to get to responding- I have one more day on a 3-day extension of my free audio-editing software and have been applying that to Frazier Tape 2- about 3 minutes into it and it's more observations about the motorcade from the Depository steps. After tomorrow it's basically waiting for word from my engineering friend.

But I do believe we can shake this tree real good and maybe get us an apple lol!


Steve, I knew your real full name before I replied. There's more than one way to finagle the bagel.

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by Guest on Fri 28 Jan 2011, 6:54 am

Yeah, with the absence of any tangible evidence as to how Oswald commuted back and forth to work Monday afternoons to Friday mornings, Jarman's 1977 recollection that Wesley "brought him to work all the time... he always brought Oswald to work" added in with Norman's statement that "he rode to work with him. I don't know how many times he rode to work with him."

- this fairly strongly indicates that Frazier & Oswald rode together on a daily or near-daily basis. Which makes better sense of Givens' (or conceivably Franklin Wester's) question "Where's your rider?"- Givens (who we learn was somewhat of a rover between the warehouse and Depository) would know about Oswald & Frazier's frequency of riding together.

I have to conclude that they rode together just about every day- add in Oswald's known frugality, and with two children to feed every dime counts.

*

Right now the way I'm interpreting Frazier's contention that Oswald carried in a two-foot package of "Curtain rods" is that- he's telling the truth about a two-foot package, but he's lying about it containing curtain rods. He described it as "5, 6 inches" wide (II, p. 226)- there may or may not be merit to that.

This is the sort of package you'd receive in a department store when you bought an LP record in the 70's- lightweight, light brown, crinkly. It's not a grocery-store type, dark brown and more heavy duty, similar to what Detective Montgomery carried out the front of the Depository.

Vincent Drain's Nov. 29 interview of R.D. Lewis (WCD 7 p. 291) states that "while [Lewis] was running the polygraph, FRAZIER was shown what appeared to be a homemade brown heavy paper gun case. He stated that FRAZIER said that it was possible this was the case, but he did not think that it resembled it. He stated that the crinkly brown paper sack that Oswald had when he rode to work with him was about two feet long..."

It seems to me that Lewis displayed the approx. 11"-wide bag which Montgomery had carried out; and Frazier could truthfully say it wasn't the one Oswald had brought.

"GEORGE DOUGHTY... CARL DAY... and R.D. LEWIS... These individuals state that as far as they know, the paper sack described by FRAZIER was not recovered by the Police Department."

- which confirms that Jarman's HSCA memory that "they searched for that package and they couldn't find it" is correct.

So the two-foot package itself was never found- and was likely discarded by Oswald, into a trash receptacle (on whatever floor)- or was there a dumpster out back?

What's important is what was inside the package.

*

The way I interpret Frazier's bombshell detail that "I didn't look at the package. I didn't look at it. This meant the briefcase. Where we've been going here. That pretty well describes the briefcase. It was only- probably two feet."

- is that Oswald, dropped off beside the Depository on the morning of the 22nd, walked into the dressing room (I think this was on the back left-hand side of the domino room) and put a two-foot crinkly package containing a briefcase somewhere in that dressing room.

The briefcase might have been 5, 6 inches wide. If so, what was inside? Not a rifle scope, since those have to be professionally aligned before use. A high-tech rifle assembly kit? I rule that out, since it would have to be skinny as a towel rack, and all indications are that conventional stock-and-barrel rifles were employed in the Depository.

What I'm going with is a silencer- that could fit on a 2nd rifle which I think was fired form the 6th-floor west window.

Oswald's statement in the Frazier lineup that "He believed everything they told him about the package"- I look at as Oswald was presented with the charge that he carried in a rifle in a long heavy-duty package and went along with that, to keep it simple and not tell the police what he actually carried in.

*

Frazier's Enfield with its little peep sight can't be ruled out as having been the sniper's nest rifle. Nobody on the street (Brennan, Euins, Bob Jackson, Malcolm Couch, Dearie Cabell) mentioned seeing a scope. It made 3 loud bangs and (most of) the other rifles used that day employed silencers.

If his Enfield was indeed used, its next certifiable whereabouts is the Randle home about 7:30 PM. The easiest method is that Frazier himself carried his rifle home. So it gets brought downstairs after the assassination, gets hidden somewhere, and he stops outside on his way home.

And J. Carl Day meant it when he told the rreporter that the rifle used in the sniper's nest was a British .303

I firmly believe the bullet into Connally's back was fired from the sniper's nest, and I don't think the caliber of what Dr. Robert Shaw stated was still in Connally's leg that afternoon, or what the nurse found in his operating room (I'm a bit fuzzy there)- it was never publicized what diameter bullet it was.

*
By the way, an unimpeachable source informed me not long ago that the Carcano was never sniffed- a standard practice by officers, smelling for traces of gunpowder/explosive gases, to see whether a weapon was recently fired.

The Carcano was never fired that day (I'm not certain whether or not it may have been a hybride Mauser/Carcano)

*

According to the Rose-Stovall-Adamcik report, when Linnie Mae Randle stopped by she told them that what Oswald had that morning "was long and wrapped in paper or a box." I have to agree that it seems likeliest that Wesley was home at the time and she was "heading them off at the pass." I'd think she kept one eye out for what might be going on at the Paines' home that afternoon.

*

This next one was worth waiting for...

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by ianlloyd on Fri 28 Jan 2011, 7:16 am

How far out of his way would Frazier had to have gone on his way to work to pick Oswald up from N. Beckley? Does it seem reasonable that he would do this to pick Oswald up every morning?

Frazier's description of the paper bag/sack has actually altered over the years, despite many people saying that he has always maintained the same description.

Yeah, I got a little bit lost on the briefcase bit when I was reading it and I'm still not absolutely sure what to make of it. I need to read the transcripts again when I get more opportunity and try to figure out a bit more...

I'm not sure about the "sniff test" - would it depend on the time elapsed between firing and sniffing as to whether there would be any point in doing it? If the sulphur cast of the inside of the barrel still exists, that could be examined perhaps - if there are, say, loose flakes of rust or something on it, surely that would be a pretty good indication that it hadn't been fired recently (speaking in a contemporary sense).

Great work Richard!!!

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by Guest on Fri 28 Jan 2011, 10:17 am

WESLEY FRAZIER TAPE 2

MORIARTY: Yes, sir. Uh, exactly- what was it? Our, uh, question?
DAY: The (noise) was what was it.
MORIARTY: Alright. And you were moving close to where it happened?
DAY: He heard the shots now.
MORIARTY: Alright. Where you saw the parade and then you said a person?
FRAZIER: OK, sir. What I did- as I was saying, uh- the first thing was when, uh- the parade, uh- I was standing on the- I was standing on the, uh, landing where- we was standing with, uh, Billy Lovelady and standing on the steps. Me and Billy had a berth up there and saw the President and could stay put. So there- uh, like- it was pandemonium, it was that for me. All I know is when they- was when- when they put- put the (drivers on), people was all- they was pushing and pushing and people was (in a rush). And then the first thing was, uh- was when the policemen moved to the side. And they- then they moved there- they moved to the side. And then they moved so the (road was open). They moved to the side.
And after a brief few (periods) where the turning was off, then they would put like an extension where the President's limo was seen to be moving. Where, you know, uh- it was desired for a person on the tail and where they would follow- the Secret Service person was down the road and on the tail. And for some reason, why they would know, but the President- Kennedy- the President was hit and they pulled the car.
And the second thing was- was when they would- how they moved. And where they would stay right there. And when they would move. And there was, uh- the person that- he had authority and so when they- they went after him, and when the person- the person appeared- he appeared there. So then, um, he didn't go after them but was after the person that fired the shots at the limousine. And eventually it appeared that the shots was coming from here. So that the sight of the President's limousine was right in line.
And then the first thing was where they- they appeared right there and then- this was sort of a thing they did. This was some, uh- sitting after, uh- sitting around and categorizing so that they- they had him. Or it was just some sort of a thing- like the crowd when they had- it appeared like the person. But they were- when actually was the first to identity. And they could- and then they was, uh- where actually was, uh- was when they, uh- was still the perosn who shouted at police.
And then the person or someone who had a purse stolen. And stolen by the person that, uh- by the person who had stolen, uh- and, uh, exactly what they stole and exactly where they stole. And what they stole and when they stole and what they stole. And- and then the person that appeared on the side.
After this incident, people was really close? And then the person who was, uh- the military person that was stolen? It worked out then that the military person who was, uh- the person who was- had gone up to the police. The person, uh, that was stolen had told the policeman. And they would turn. 'Cause- and they would turn. And then the policeman- actually where they would- actually they would- and so forth like that. And they would turn, and so forth- the policeman. They would- they would just, uh-
MORIARTY: You were saying- where you were when you saw the police and the military person? While you were just standing out on the curb somewhere?
FRAZIER: In the area there while we was standing out on the curb and saw the military guy that was standing on the curb before. And I knew this guy was the person that they- but, uh, what I seen on the curb was what I had seen before. And I knew that they would, uh- that they would

II-2

come there- come around for a period of time and then the, uh, person that appeared yesterday- they appeared right away. But, I knew that they were right there- they would come there. I knew they would come there.
MORIARTY: And where you're going with this, uh- you, I understand- but, uh- but you had seen- had seen and heard from some person you witnessed there.And then by virtue of, uh, some talk with people, I guess, standing out in the street. And then the extortion or some kind of danger. And you were kind of standing- standing around just looking at things. So we could appreciate it a little bit better.
FRAZIER: OK, sir, out in the main street, we was actually where was, uh- we was standing out with the police and we- I'm certain that some people were completely with, uh- they was standing in the curb there. And they were right with, uh- on the curb there where the assassination occurred.And it loked like a circle, you know, where all these people were- they were around or was either there or was trying to make them so that- to make them lose their expression so to make the President's assassination had no explanation for them.
MORIARTY: OK. Where do I get the impression? Is that- what I really- what I really need to know from you is- has anybody made any threats to you? Has anyone made a- or have you received any kind of a warning or emotion or threat or some kind of emotion that they were- they were burning up after you?
FRAZIER: Uh, not that I would, uh, call that something or somewhere, where you know that- where they would call me names and a liar and so that- you know? And then they was so excited at what they called me and so they realized then- the person after me was trying to kill that. There is some way, with the requirement. That's what I'm saying.
Because the police at that moment they appeared when they told you. They appeared right then. So the police arrived. And I know the simple fact that they went over there, that they was actually there. And, uh, they was running there and so, uh- the fact. And I know that's a fact. And I know they, uh- then they saw that where they, uh- the police was over where the people was so excited. And I know there was some sort of a way- some way- and it turns out I don't know.
MORIARTY: In other words, basically what we're talking about is somebody that was different? Or somebody that you knew personally- personally you knew? Or somebody that you thought you knew? Or was it something with the assassination or the President, of course?In other words, what- what kind of a realization when this thing happened?
FRAZIER: OK. I think- all I know is that somewhere in that time that- and I knew that when Kennedy was hit they would know it happened- the President- they was really amazed where- you know? And I know that because, uh- the military person- the person that was out standing on the curb- that essentially- I knew that somewhere that- that the military person knew this. And they knew that when they fired at the President and when they shot at him- the President. And they would know- the military person. And most of what I described here is about the military person.
MORIARTY: OK. I think that your, uh- your, uh, situation was most apparent and you knew, uh- where they had the security that was set up there- the situation was just, uh- you were- you were in a position where a large crowd- and the Secret Service, uh- the President's situation that- that, uh- I- I wonder if the President's, uh- where they had this thing or- or like before- that kind of situation like that. But, uh, I wonder of your feelings about this? So where was when you realized, because of the way you've been treated with- with- what we're referring to- how they treated you on the surface? Or that you knew- in the times that you waited- because you waited for an interview. That's what I'm talking about.

II-3

FRAZIER: Uh-huh. How many- how many ways, uh, that someone- someone on purpose tried to think that. Or they would think that I had. I would think that they're lonely.
MORIARTY: Right.
FRAZIER: It was a military thing, because, uh- a military experience. A military experience. And they would- and someone, I think that they would notice that. And eventually- where you know where a military person in that area- or maybe it's up to the police or something. Or you know where something- you know where you people look at the Dallas police.
MORIARTY: I wish there was some way for a person that had some information- or maybe some way with the police or a person or someone

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by Guest on Sat 29 Jan 2011, 10:48 am

Sounds to me like Frazier recognized "the military guy" he'd noticed the day before, who diverted a patrolman on the Elm St. side of the peninsula- to facilitate the escape of the Dal-Tex team. I'd say it was James Powell.

This is one of my favorites, and my 1992 cover version at a coffee house open mike is special to remember, maybe half as special as who it might be for...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNos0A5s0uQ&feature=related

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by Guest on Mon 31 Jan 2011, 12:10 pm

I have no enthusiasm for my idea that the briefcase contained a silencer. This 2-foot long, 5-6 inch wide briefcase was specially designed to carry what it contained. If you unfastened and opened it, probably it would be a felt-covered mold, shaped around the object inside.

I'm reverting back to the scope idea. A rifle scope would want to be aligned before use to ensure it wsn't out of kilter. (Maybe there was also a silencer in the briefcase kit.)

I only see 2 choices on the 6th floor for which rifle got mounted with a scope that day- the planted Carcano, and the deer rifle Arnold Rowland noticed.

The ghostly 10" impression left in the blanket in the Paines' garage suggests to me that the scope was already in place on the Carcano before it was planted. This Carcano could have been in the 7th-floor corner storeroom, and Oswald retrieved it during the early part of lunchtime.

The deer rifle would have had to have been mounted before Rowland's 12:15 sighting. A shot from the 6th-floor west window probably was aimed at the President's head, but hit the back due to the scope misalignment.

The reason I favor that origin for the back shot is Dave Powers' affidavit at VII, p. 473: "Shortly thereafter the first shot went off and it sounded to me as if it were a firecracker. I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left after the shot, from the extreme right-hand side where he had been sitting.

Powers' word to my mind takes precedence over what the Z-film may or may not show at that approximate instant. JFK responded similar to as if he'd been shoved on the right shoulder and shifted toward the center of the limo.

A sulphur cast of the Archives rifle only would be valid if this is the rifle that was used that day. The Fred Newcomb/Jack White photocomparison of the Dallas rifle/Archives rifle shows it isn't. That photo can be viewed at Attachment #1, my Lancer post #82557 of July 6 2009, from the topic "Hole in the Windshield: An Eternal Return".

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by ianlloyd on Mon 31 Jan 2011, 10:57 pm

"A sulphur cast of the Archives rifle only would be valid if this is the rifle that was used that day."

Richard,

If the sulphur cast did show loose flakes of rust, or anything else that wouldn't have been expected to have been found within a rifle barrel so soon after it having been fired then I would suggest that it would make a dent in the "official" story.

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by Guest on Tue 01 Feb 2011, 12:45 am

I agree entirely, but the proposed sulphur cast would reveal that the Archives rifle was indeed fired 46-47 years ago. If you read the surrounding posts in that Lancer topic I cited, you'll see I make the case that the Archives rifle was actually used in the Dal-Tex that day. I've been meaning to generate an article about that.

You might appreciate that my esteem for Dr. Vincent Guinn's NAA work is not the darling of the conspiracy community- which in general got bogged down refuting the lawyers' arguments that NAA confirmed the single bullet theory, which CTers correctly point out that the margin of error in the NAA measurements is too large to be used correlatively- but in battling the ludicrous lawyerly notion that a bullet from JFK's throat entered Connally's back, CTers have missed out on the fact that Guinn's results have a very good ballpark-range grouping, and tell us that all the limo fragments(& JFK head fragments) came from one bullet.

I still hold the view that this bullet originated from the 2nd-floor window of the Dal-Tex, which therefore employed a Mannlicher-Carcano. And that this Carcano was employed after November 22nd to produce a magic bullet and additional Connally wrist fragments.

Now whose Carcano was it? The answer I find is from Marita Lorenz' "Plausible Denial" testimony, from when the hit-team caravan arrived at a motel on the outskirts of Dallas:
No phone calls, no speaking in Spanish, no leaving for restaurants, complete obedience...Once they got into their adjacent motel rooms "the trunk of the car was opened and they brought in... three, four automatics... Frank's 'baby', a high-powered rifle, scope and silencer attached, [was] in the trunk of our car."

Frank Fiorini/Sturgis, Marita's lover at the time.

An explanation simple, neat & wrong, perhaps, but perhaps simple, neat & correct.

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by Guest on Wed 09 Feb 2011, 7:49 am

Shields' HSCA interview indicates that Oswald was dropped off at the Depository, and that Frazier drove by himself into the warehouse parking lot.

Why, then, would Frazier not be straightforward about this? Why the elaborate tale about Oswald carrying a package across the railyard?

This was necessary because Frazier himself had carried a long package across the railyard.

I would suggest that Frazier incorporated elements from his own railyard walk into Oswald's fictitious walk. From his 9:00 PM DPD affidavit:
"I noticed that Lee had the package in his right hand under his arm, and the package was straight up and down, and he had his arm down, and you could not see much of the package."

From his Warren Commission testimony (II, p. 228): "and he put the package that he had, you know, that he told me was curtain rods up under his arm..."

BALL: You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?
FRAZIER: Yes, sir.
BALL: You mean one end of it under the armpit?
FRAZIER: Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it under your arm like that.
BALL: And he had the lower part-
FRAZIER: The other part with his right hand.
BALL: Right hand?
FRAZIER: Right.
BALL: He carried it then parallel to his body?
FRAZIER: Right, straight up and down.

*

Now, why would Frazier go through all this bother, exposing himself to a chance sighting, by surreptitiously carrying his package-shrouded Enfield across the railyard? Wouldn't it be a lot easier just to park temporarily behind the Depository loading dock, and scurry inside and put the Enfield somewhere in the basement?

The answer is he didn't want Oswald to know about it.

*

If you think it's fun living like a snake holed up in the rocks, get this rendition of a meeting with Frazier by suspected CIA asset Gus Russo in his book "Live By the Sword", p. 264:

"The author's own meetings with Frazier, beginning in 1987, revealed a man very nervous about discussing the subject.
At the first meeting, Frazier spoke through a crack in the door for over an hour before being coaxed outside. Eventually, more meetings were held over lunches throughout the Dallas area. Frazier told of how he lost 'dozens' of jobs as a result of his association with Oswald. He was constantly uprooting himself to remain hidden from the press, and maintained an unlisted phone number."

Tsk.

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by greg parker on Wed 09 Feb 2011, 8:25 am

ianlloyd wrote:How far out of his way would Frazier had to have gone on his way to work to pick Oswald up from N. Beckley? Does it seem reasonable that he would do this to pick Oswald up every morning?

Frazier's description of the paper bag/sack has actually altered over the years, despite many people saying that he has always maintained the same description.

Yeah, I got a little bit lost on the briefcase bit when I was reading it and I'm still not absolutely sure what to make of it. I need to read the transcripts again when I get more opportunity and try to figure out a bit more...

I'm not sure about the "sniff test" - would it depend on the time elapsed between firing and sniffing as to whether there would be any point in doing it? If the sulphur cast of the inside of the barrel still exists, that could be examined perhaps - if there are, say, loose flakes of rust or something on it, surely that would be a pretty good indication that it hadn't been fired recently (speaking in a contemporary sense).

Great work Richard!!!

Ian, Richard had already posted this, but in case you missed it:

"I just checked a map, and see that Irving Boulevard goes all the way from Irving to downtown Dallas; it's only a mile sidetrip down the R.L. Thornton Expressway, and 1/2-3/4 miles to the rooming house or nearby rendevous point- no real stretch, to consider that Frazier might have given Oswald a ride to work every day."

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

Post by ianlloyd on Wed 09 Feb 2011, 7:47 pm

Yes, I missed that - thanks Greg...

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Re: This May Shock and Amaze Ya

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