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Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by greg parker on Sun 16 Apr 2017, 11:39 pm

steely wrote:Congratulations Barto. Well deserved and you have the added bonus of pissing off all the right people  
This could get ugly. 

He's taking no prisoners. his flip flops are fully loaded and he is not afraid to use them.

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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by barto on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 8:47 am

On BOR tonight!!!

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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by barto on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 4:32 pm

http://www.blackopradio.com/pod/black831a.mp3

[*][url=http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Anatomy of the second floor lunch room encounter.pdf]Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter[/url]
[*]Winner of the Mary Ferrell & JFK Lancer New Frontier Award Nov. 2016
[*]Bart saw a BBC documentary when he was 11, he was fascinated by the whole mystery
[*]The first internet search Bart made was for Fletcher Prouty
[*]He started focusing more, going deeper, he spent a year in Harold Weisberg's [url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/]archives[/url]
[*]His first project's scope was too wide, he focused in on the TSBD, a brilliant maze
[*]There is a lot of contradiction, Prayer Man, Bill Kelly's thread
[*]The Lunch Room Encounter, where was Oswald?
[*]reopenkennedycase.orgprayer-man.comdealeyplazauk.org.uk
[*]Dealey Plaza UK 2017 [url=http://dealeyplazauk.org.uk/pdfArticles/DPUK 2017 Seminar Programme.pdf]Seminar[/url], Canterbury, Christchurch University April 29-30
[*]The truth is not in the Warren Report, a picture is painted
[*]Baker's initial statement doesn't refer to the lunch room or the second floor
[*]Baker's FBI statement, the Warren Report was already printed
[*]Newspapers contradict the official story
[*]Bart leans towards, Roger Craig's observation, Oswald and the Nash Rambler
[*]Oswald was on the first floor, not on the sixth, not on the second either
[*]Bart has written 18 chapters over 177 pages
[*]Links, pictures, documents, floor plans
[*]Motorcycle policeman Marion Baker and TSBD Superintendent Roy Truly
[*]Baker did not dash into the building, he stood in front
[*]In 1964 Roy Truly stated he talked to Howard Brennan
[*]The Blacks (employees/witnesses) were treated really bad and they were scared
[*]Eddie Piper, Troy West, discrepancies in their statements, Charles Givens
[*]The actual encounter, look at the pictures, imagine Baker and Truly
[*]The Secret Service, a lot of stories were invented
[*]The Oswald Affair: (Sauvage 1966)
       An Examination of the Contradictions and Omissions of the Warren Report

[*]Truly, "Baker was ahead of me," not between a policeman and a gunman
[*]Seeing somebody behind that tiny little window of that closed door
[*]Truly's testimony just rattles, he corners himself
[*]The evolving up and down story of the Coke
[*]Oswald walks through the office, down the steps, out the building
[*]He allegedly encounters Mrs. Robert Reid, Geneva Hine contradicts her
[*]Was Oswald Encountered Somewhere Else? The most important chapter
[*]Oswald was stopped, but, he was stopped on the first floor
[*]The TSBD had a class divide, laborers, office workers
[*]Bart covers Oswald's interrogations, what did he say?
[*]His legal rights were trampled on
[*]The re-enactment didn't add up
[*]Excerpts of this article at kennedysandking.com

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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 7:17 pm

Liked how Len kept on point.
Showed his knowledge and interest in your material
As well as great plugs for us ROKC'rs
Good job Bart!
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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by barto on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 7:57 pm

Thanks Ed and my pleasure.
ROKC all the way!

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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 9:16 pm

....and for reference here is a picture of Marion Baker

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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by Jake Sykes on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 9:20 pm

Nice to hear new and vital research being discussed on Blackopradio. Great job Barto. People need to know that you have compiled all of this information and that there is a lot of it. Also that it amounts to a train wreck for the WC.

For 50 plus years CT's have been locked into the 2nd floor as a valid event. It was always a bridge too far to say otherwise since it involved testing the testimonies of a handful of people. Yet you have shown that their statements do indeed have serious issues with the ways they evolved over time and with the contemporaneous news reporting from a variety of news sources. 

One of the best shows ever. Congratulations to you and to Len.
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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 22 Apr 2017, 12:44 pm

Nicely done Barto,

ROKCin' On!
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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by barto on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 3:39 am

Thank you Jake and Mick, much appreciated feedback!!!
Overall it has been extremely positive, well worth the effort Smile

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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by beowulf on Thu 27 Apr 2017, 3:47 am

Great interview Barto. You made a point that Truly had spoken with Brennan (the construction worker outside). Since Brennan was standing out front a while-- at least until Sorrels showed up-- couldn't Truly have gone inside quickly (with or without Baker) and talked to Brennan after he went back outside?

I'm still skeptical that Baker didn't go right in, Peggy Hawkins statement (or rather the FBI agent's paraphrasing of her statement) that there was a motorcycle officer in front of TSBD could as easily mean an officer runnning as it could be mean an officer standing (and his radio speaker would still be blaring even after he was gone). In fact she might have simply told FBI agent there was a police motorcycle in front of TSBD and he took that to mean (perhaps mistakenly) that the motorcycle policeman himself was in front of building. It's a pity that to this day, FBI prefer not to record interviews.

However, assuming you're right and Baker didn't enter the building right away. I can think of one possible reason that he'd lie and aver that he had entered TSBD, encountered Oswald (or the real shooter) and let him go-- to take one for the team and protect the reputation of a senior Dallas cop who'd done just that. As Sean Murphy suggested, perhaps it was Captain Sawyer who dropped the ball.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/19425-was-oswald-stopped-by-sawyer-near-the-tsbd-front-entrance/

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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Thu 27 Apr 2017, 1:48 pm

No he could not.

Truly was not in a position to speak with him later, he was on roof, then on film with Baker speaking with several others inside the TSBD.
No film shows Truly outside when Brennan speaks to cops on steps and Sawyer.
Just isnt possible

He spoke to him before entering?? Perhaps

That changes the dynamic
That fits the scenario of Prayer Man perfectly.

It makes Bakers run fit what we now know.

Peggy again couldn't be naming another cop, motorcycle helmeted officer, as she went inside before all the others showed up. Peggy makes sense if she was outside for the Baker run to the corner, then adjourned with others inside minutes later. Then comes Brennan via Famous Amos Euins story, then Baker and Truly hearing the story make for the roof... roof? Hmmm. Why not to the window Brennan pointed out....
Like the cops, why doesn't anyone go to the claimed snipers nest FIRST.
More likely Baker Truly took the elevator and stopped on each floor, saw a man on Fourth floor, whom Truly cleared, and then went all the way up to roof.

All the rest is bogus like lunchroom encounters.

Cheers, Ed


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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by beowulf on Thu 27 Apr 2017, 3:37 pm

Ed, it's unclear when the film of Baker and Truly talking with other men was shot, could be from Warren Commission reenactment several months later.

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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by barto on Thu 27 Apr 2017, 3:56 pm

The Baker and Truly film was shot by Alyea who was insude the TSBD just after.

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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Thu 27 Apr 2017, 9:57 pm

Again if Brennan tells Truly and Baker what he told Sawyer then why does no one go to that window....check for a sniper behind the book boxes

Foremost no one shot out of any window of the TSBD.
So no wonder it takes so long to plant...er I mean find the snipers nest.

I find that I have to call bullshit.

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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Thu 27 Apr 2017, 10:03 pm

Another person whom had a conversation with Brennan? Was OV Campbell

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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by barto on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 6:20 am

Just came back from Canterbury. I only attended today. Ed killed it, everyone was knocked back going pffffff  Oh and i got another award  study
Yeah went well

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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 9:56 am

Cheers Bart! That's a beauty

Yes i ripped the bus story a new one, covered 22 pages of material and 36 slides in 31 minutes.

Was epic.

Mahalos, Ed
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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by Mick Purdy on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 10:49 am

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Again if Brennan tells Truly and Baker what he told Sawyer then why does no one go to that window....check for a sniper behind the book boxes

Foremost no one shot out of any window of the TSBD.
So no wonder it takes so long to plant...er I mean find the snipers nest.  

I find that I have to call bullshit.

Quite so Ed,

You may call bullshit and indeed you have and shown us why.
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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by barto on Sun 30 Apr 2017, 8:37 pm

Thank you Ed.

I was given this internal memo by Malcolm Blunt yesterday in Canterbury, it's from Redlich to Belin and co.
I took these with my phone.
The elevators are discussed.............most interesting.
Thank you Malcolm!



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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by Jake Sykes on Mon 01 May 2017, 4:33 am

This is a great look inside the investigation and raises a few important questions and observations:

1. There is a huge hole in the documented evidence. The elevator moved. Nobody knows who moved or why it was moved. They knew the hole was there. They carefully described the hole. They stated the hole should be plugged and what the next steps were to plugging the hole, but they never plugged the damn hole. It remains open to this day and there is nothing to describe how their attempts at plugging it failed. They dropped it like a hot potato, of course, because to talk about it was to prove they had a major hole in their narrative of the events inside the TSBD that day. Without LHO as the LN, they were abject failures, not the best and the brightest, and that didn't fit the narrative either.

2. Whomever was moving the elevator was working on the 6th floor; they pretty well made that case themselves in the memo. As such, the 'work' being done was apparently staging the scene, if needed. I say 'if needed' because there had to be a plan B to call off action if Plan A was aborted.

3. Planting evidence meant throwing down shell casings, the gun sack (BS of course), and arranging  boxes. So if signaled to do so (somehow, I don't know how) then do it, if not signaled, then don't do it. The gun could stay where it had already be stashed between the boxes over by the stairs in either case because if no search of the building then the gun could stay until later when someone could get it out of the building easily. Of course, if there was a search, it would be found.

4. Just want to point out that the above makes sense out of the gun being hidden while the hulls and gun sack are left in the open, which under a real life scenario makes zero sense. The sniper leaves his shells on the floor, the gun sack on the floor, but carefully tucks away the gun over on the other side of the building? Why, to delay discovery of it? Again, why? Leave it with the shells and the sack. They will all be found. Oh, he forgot to put it down? Then leave it on some boxes on the way out. But carry the gun (by mistake) all the way out to the stairs, where you might be seen by someone coming up the stairs and then hide it between boxes right in front of the stairs? No. The gun was there the whole time to be discovered by police under Plan A or alternatively, to be not discovered by people in their normal course of work following an uneventful motorcade under Plan B (and to perhaps be taken down the nearby elevator on a cart, again hidden between the boxes, and then discretely ferried off site). Obviously they went with Plan A.

What an enlightening memo this was. It really caused me to gel these thoughts in my mind as I would not have otherwise. Even if I'm wrong about what I've summarized, the gaping hole in the narrative remains, forever.
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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by greg parker on Mon 01 May 2017, 7:28 am

Jake Sykes wrote:This is a great look inside the investigation and raises a few important questions and observations:

1. There is a huge hole in the documented evidence. The elevator moved. Nobody knows who moved or why it was moved. They knew the hole was there. They carefully described the hole. They stated the hole should be plugged and what the next steps were to plugging the hole, but they never plugged the damn hole. It remains open to this day and there is nothing to describe how their attempts at plugging it failed. They dropped it like a hot potato, of course, because to talk about it was to prove they had a major hole in their narrative of the events inside the TSBD that day. Without LHO as the LN, they were abject failures, not the best and the brightest, and that didn't fit the narrative either.

2. Whomever was moving the elevator was working on the 6th floor; they pretty well made that case themselves in the memo. As such, the 'work' being done was apparently staging the scene, if needed. I say 'if needed' because there had to be a plan B to call off action if Plan A was aborted.

3. Planting evidence meant throwing down shell casings, the gun sack (BS of course), and arranging  boxes. So if signaled to do so (somehow, I don't know how) then do it, if not signaled, then don't do it. The gun could stay where it had already be stashed between the boxes over by the stairs in either case because if no search of the building then the gun could stay until later when someone could get it out of the building easily. Of course, if there was a search, it would be found.

4. Just want to point out that the above makes sense out of the gun being hidden while the hulls and gun sack are left in the open, which under a real life scenario makes zero sense. The sniper leaves his shells on the floor, the gun sack on the floor, but carefully tucks away the gun over on the other side of the building? Why, to delay discovery of it? Again, why? Leave it with the shells and the sack. They will all be found. Oh, he forgot to put it down? Then leave it on some boxes on the way out. But carry the gun (by mistake) all the way out to the stairs, where you might be seen by someone coming up the stairs and then hide it between boxes right in front of the stairs? No. The gun was there the whole time to be discovered by police under Plan A or alternatively, to be not discovered by people in their normal course of work following an uneventful motorcade under Plan B (and to perhaps be taken down the nearby elevator on a cart, again hidden between the boxes, and then discretely ferried off site). Obviously they went with Plan A.

What an enlightening memo this was. It really caused me to gel these thoughts in my mind as I would not have otherwise. Even if I'm wrong about what I've summarized, the gaping hole in the narrative remains, forever.
Excellent thoughts, Jake.

The issue as I see it is how reliable Truly is as a witness.  If what he stated is true, then the above nails it.

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by Mick Purdy on Mon 01 May 2017, 8:44 am

Excellent thoughts Jake,

I can't help but think of JD at this time, especially after reading this memo.

To my mind he was a part of that gaping hole.
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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Mon 01 May 2017, 9:16 am

Ditto with what Jake excellently discusses. I also agree with Mick. JD was up to something there on the 6th. I remember Lee Farley saying he found it incredulous that Baker and Truly skipped the 6th floor over at Stinky's once a while back when I knew very little about the case.
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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by Mick Purdy on Mon 01 May 2017, 12:28 pm



Truly thinks that Dougherty was working there at this time. Where?

I'll place a bet that Truly absolutely knew for certain that Dougherty was on the sixth floor. I'd stake anything on it.

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Re: Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

Post by greg parker on Mon 01 May 2017, 2:26 pm

Truly thinks that Dougherty was working there at this time. Where?

Why would Truly think that? The lunch break hadn't finished and I'm sure Dougherty testified that his break was 45 minutes. Truly had been outside and had no way of knowing what anyone inside was doing. If he "thought" Dougherty was "up there working" because he asked Dougherty later, why the qualifying language, did he have reason to Dougherty? Or why not say "Dougherty told Truly..."


I'll place a bet that Truly absolutely knew for certain that Dougherty was on the sixth floor. I'd stake anything on it.

The bookies aren't taking any bets on that. They don't like losing.


Which brings me back to the reliability of anything Truly said. Did they really look up and see the elevators stuck on 5? Did Truly go up with Baker? Did it happen as quickly as claimed? Was Truly really ahead of Baker? Was it Dougherty they encountered on the 4th? 

Those elevators and their movements are rabbit holes. Every single attempt to unravel their movements is compromised by having to accept as a starting point, Truly's testimony as fact.

And then you have the wild cards - elevator shafts, a dumb waiter and a conveyor belt when considering movements of people and/or "evidence".


There were a lot of smoke and mirrors and misdirections in play that day. Magicians tricks. And the magician had an airtight alibi. He was over in Africa shooting elephants. 

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
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