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Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

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Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Vinny on Sun 11 Sep 2016, 1:23 am

From the Webs Forum.


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Albert Rossi on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 7:08 pm

Hi all. I was at the AARC. I figured I might as well try it again, so I approached Buell with the

Robin Unger enhancement of the Darnell frame on my laptop desktop, and asked him

 

1. if that was him

2. who the other figure was.

 

He admitted 1. was him.

He said 2. was not clear enough for certain identification, but it probably wasn't Lovelady because by that time he had taken off with Shelley for the RR yard.



Note he says it probably wasn't Lovelady.

Why mention Lovelady? Lovelady was a guy who resembled Oswald to some extent.Perhaps what he was hinting something like this.



The guy is not Lovelady,but the guy who resembled Lovelady, a guy named Lee Oswald.

Otherwise why did he suddenly mention Lovelady when shown the PM image?

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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Vinny on Sun 11 Sep 2016, 1:25 am


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It's true that little exchange with Rossi is loaded once you attempt to get inside Mr. Frazier's mind like that. It's a very nuanced little set of statements. I think he knows what he's doing and how to phrase things and do agree that there is allusion to Oswald by the reference to Lovelady. Also note he says Shelley and Lovelady were off to the tracks by then. That is immediately after the shooting, not several minutes later and so no Lovelady and Shelley together loitering out by the "island" and talking to Calvery, as Shelley testified at WC (but as Lovelady did not).
June 4, 2016 at 10:48 AM

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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Vinny on Mon 10 Oct 2016, 1:09 am

If PM is not Oswald,why doesn't Frazier say so? He has never come out and said that it is not Oswald which is quite suggestive in itself.

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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Thu 13 Oct 2016, 6:32 pm

Yet he says Ossie leaves via backdoor, a late arriving claim which flies in the face of earlier statements.
We will just have to prove to him exactly whom he was inches away from and or standing behind/ looking at/ hovering near.
Once he is forced to adjust his recollections I'm sure we will get more details.
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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 14 Oct 2016, 3:45 am

BWF was shown the Darnell Prayer Man frame for the first time in 2013 by Gary Mack. Gary Mack responded:
 
"While the image is an interesting find, the Prayer Man question has probably been answered.  I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought.  First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough.  He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn’t confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality.
 
"Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build.  When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he 'dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.'  And he repeated that he, Lovelady and Shelley stayed on the steps for 'a short time' after the last shot, but he didn’t estimate how long.
 
"So unless Buell Frazier is still part of the cover-up plot, TSBD 'Miscellaneous Department' manager William Shelley, by elimination, must be Prayer Man.  According to Shelley’s testimony, 'I didn’t do anything for a minute' following the last shot, so the man was standing on the steps before, during and after the time Darnell and Couch filmed those brief scenes."
 
Sean Murphy responded:
 
"This is a real breakthrough, and I for one am very grateful to Gary for taking the trouble to contact Buell Wesley Frazier.
 
"Why is it a breakthrough?
 
"Well, not because of the Shelley idea. For Shelley's own testimony, and that of the person with him Billy Lovelady, rules him out as Prayer Man:
 
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.
 
"Darnell shows Baker just a couple of seconds away from the building entrance. Prayer Man is still standing up on the steps. So Shelley is ruled out. Period. (Unless, that is, someone wants to accuse him and Lovelady of lying in their WC testimony about their run out on to the 'island'. Who wants to go first?)
 
"The reason Buell Wesley Frazier's response is a breakthrough is that Bill Shelley appears to be the only possibility BWF himself can offer when presented with the Prayer Man image. (Although it's not quite clear from Gary's message whether BWF himself nominated Shelley or whether that's Gary's own suggestion.)

"Given that he is not giving us some new revelation as to the presence of some hitherto unmentioned other person on the steps at that time (i.e. a stranger to the building), and given that Prayer Man cannot possibly be Shelley, we have just received startling confirmation that Prayer Man can only reasonably be Lee Oswald.
 
"BWF probably knows it's Lee but--for the most understandable reasons in the world--cannot say so.
However, to give him credit, he's just done the next best thing."

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354&page=52
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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by greg parker on Fri 14 Oct 2016, 9:35 am

Thanks for that reminder, Stan.

And while on Frazier's description of Shelley, how does it affect the putative ID of Shelley in PD photos? Particularly in light of what Frazier claimed Shelley usually wore...

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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:47 am

Would Shelley likely keep a tie and jacket in his office or car as a manager, yes.
Managers can be called into meetings at any time and are usually prepared for this eventuality. The suit n tie man is Joe Molina. Shelley working the warehouse would more likely to wear a dress shirt, long or short sleeved. 
Imo.
Buell saying sports shirt is a dodge. Square peg, round hole.
He is being too accommodating to what the image shows rather than his own recollection of that day, what his bosd was wearing "that day" and on "those steps"
Hmm
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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Vinny on Mon 06 Mar 2017, 2:55 am

Frazier was supposed to have his book out by this time.Anybody here have any news or updates about it?

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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Mick Purdy on Tue 07 Mar 2017, 8:39 am

Would Shelley likely keep a tie and jacket in his office or car as a manager, yes.



Absolutely as any sort of manager would, especially back in '63.
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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Robin Unger on Tue 07 Mar 2017, 9:54 am

Gary Mack quote:

"Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build. When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he 'dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.

Interesting comment from Frazier regarding Shelley's usual work clothes.
"slacks and sport shirt"

As has been stated, this doesn't match the man in the suit and tie usually identified as Shelley ?

thanks for posting the information.


In my James Richards gallery there is a photo of Truly and Shelley showing their dogs at a dog show.
i will post the link once the forum software approves it.
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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by greg parker on Tue 07 Mar 2017, 10:05 am

Robin Unger wrote:Gary Mack quote:

"Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build.  When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he 'dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.

Interesting comment from Frazier regarding Shelley's usual work clothes.
"slacks and sport shirt"

As has been stated, this doesn't match the man in the suit and tie usually identified as Shelley ?

thanks for posting the information.


In my James Richards gallery there is a photo of Truly and Shelley showing their dogs at a dog show.
i will post the link once the forum software approves it.
Thank you Robin. I do recall the photo posted by James now you mention it.

I'd have to agree with the later comments regarding the clothing - it would be usual for someone in management to keep a jacket and tie on hand at work, even if you did not normally wear it.  It may also be the case that he did normally wear a suit but was wearing more casual gear during the laying of the flooring.

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Mick Purdy on Tue 07 Mar 2017, 10:50 am

Vinny wrote:If PM is not Oswald,why doesn't Frazier say so? He has never come out and said that it is not Oswald which is quite suggestive in itself.


If PM is not Oswald,why doesn't Frazier say so? 




Vinny this is key imo.

He could have easily denied that the person standing next to him was not Oswald in the Darnell frame, he has not, not ever. He has however told us it could not have been Lovelady.

I think this goes a long way in letting us know who was standing next to Frazier a top of the stairs in the shadows of the west end of the stairs.

Frazier : Darnell frame: No strangers that day, - although it looks like Lovelady it isn't him, then......... Wow!
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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Vinny on Tue 07 Mar 2017, 11:46 pm

Exactly Mick.Hopefully in the future he will give a more direct answer.

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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Robin Unger on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 8:54 am

greg parker wrote:
Robin Unger wrote:Gary Mack quote:

"Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build.  When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he 'dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.

Interesting comment from Frazier regarding Shelley's usual work clothes.
"slacks and sport shirt"

As has been stated, this doesn't match the man in the suit and tie usually identified as Shelley ?

thanks for posting the information.


In my James Richards gallery there is a photo of Truly and Shelley showing their dogs at a dog show.
i will post the link once the forum software approves it.
Thank you Robin. I do recall the photo posted by James now you mention it.

I'd have to agree with the later comments regarding the clothing - it would be usual for someone in management to keep a jacket and tie on hand at work, even if you did not normally wear it.  It may also be the case that he did normally wear a suit but was wearing more casual gear during the laying of the flooring.

James Richards collage.

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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Gerry Simone on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 9:22 am

Greetings,

Just registered.

I attended the JFK Lancer Conference in Dallas in November 2015, where BWF spoke to the attendees.  He was accompanied by his son.  He seemed like a decent man.  He or his son announced that his book would be released the following year (IIRC), although I haven't seen it to date.

He told the audience that he saw Oswald come around from the north side of the depository building (along the west sidewalk of Houston), presumably from the rear of the building to join the others at the front.  But if my recollection serves me, he said this happened after the assassination.  In other words, he didn't mention that Oswald was with him at the front.

I should double check my DVD collection of that conference and watch his presentation over again, but that's the gist of it on this matter concerning Oswald.  (I don't think I knew much about Prayer Man at the time, but was aware of Oswald's comments about being "out front with Shelley" to Captain Fritz supposedly made at his interrogation at the police station).

Gerry Simone

P.S.  Just a thought from the questions raised in previous posts here, but is it possible that BWF is saving a grand revelation for his book that PM is indeed LHO?


Last edited by Gerry Simone on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 9:49 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : inserted "over again" after "presentation")
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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 9:49 am

Gerry Simone wrote:Greetings,

Just registered.

I attended the JFK Lancer Conference in Dallas in November 2015, where BWF spoke to the attendees.  He was accompanied by his son.  He seemed like a decent man.  He or his son announced that his book would be released the following year (IIRC), although I haven't seen it to date.

He told the audience that he saw Oswald come around from the north side of the depository building (along the west sidewalk of Houston), presumably from the rear of the building to join the others at the front.  But if my recollection serves me, he said this happened after the assassination.  In other words, he didn't mention that Oswald was with him at the front.

I should double check my DVD collection of that conference and watch his presentation, but that's the gist of it on this matter concerning Oswald.  (I don't think I knew much about Prayer Man at the time, but was aware of Oswald's comments about being "out front with Shelley" to Captain Fritz supposedly made at his interrogation at the police station).

Gerry Simone

P.S.  Just a thought from the questions raised in previous posts here, but is it possible that BWF is saving a grand revelation for his book that PM is indeed LHO?
G'day Gerry welcome here,

I have been researching Frazier now for near on 5 years, and I agree he comes across as a decent man especially in recent times.

However a very different picture of his character seems to appear after my studying his earlier years. If the majority of the group here are correct regarding PM then Frazier has a lot of explaining to do.

The "Where's your Rider" thread suggests very persuasively that Frazier was in fact alone in the parking lot the morning of the assassination and not with Oswald as his statements and testimony suggest. If that is true then that would also warrant some explanation from Frazier. 

This forum has proved Wesley Frazier lied about key events which influenced authorities in believing Lee was a guilty man, guilty of assassinating the President JFK.
No small matter.

Yes he maybe a decent man these days but I'm not so sure how decent he was back in 1963.

Welcome to the forum, it's a fine place.
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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Gerry Simone on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 10:02 am

Mick Purdy wrote:
Gerry Simone wrote:Greetings,

Just registered.

I attended the JFK Lancer Conference in Dallas in November 2015, where BWF spoke to the attendees.  He was accompanied by his son.  He seemed like a decent man.  He or his son announced that his book would be released the following year (IIRC), although I haven't seen it to date.

He told the audience that he saw Oswald come around from the north side of the depository building (along the west sidewalk of Houston), presumably from the rear of the building to join the others at the front.  But if my recollection serves me, he said this happened after the assassination.  In other words, he didn't mention that Oswald was with him at the front.

I should double check my DVD collection of that conference and watch his presentation, but that's the gist of it on this matter concerning Oswald.  (I don't think I knew much about Prayer Man at the time, but was aware of Oswald's comments about being "out front with Shelley" to Captain Fritz supposedly made at his interrogation at the police station).

Gerry Simone

P.S.  Just a thought from the questions raised in previous posts here, but is it possible that BWF is saving a grand revelation for his book that PM is indeed LHO?
G'day Gerry welcome here,

I have been researching Frazier now for near on 5 years, and I agree he comes across as a decent man especially in recent times.

However a very different picture of his character seems to appear after my studying his earlier years. If the majority of the group here are correct regarding PM then Frazier has a lot of explaining to do.

The "Where's your Rider" thread suggests very persuasively that Frazier was in fact alone in the parking lot the morning of the assassination and not with Oswald as his statements and testimony suggest. If that is true then that would also warrant some explanation from Frazier. 

This forum has proved Wesley Frazier lied about key events which influenced authorities in believing Lee was a guilty man, guilty of assassinating the President JFK.
No small matter.

Yes he maybe a decent man these days but I'm not so sure how decent he was back in 1963.

Welcome to the forum, it's a fine place.
Hello Mick,

Thank you for the welcome mat.

Mick, this isn't the first time that someone has written that Frazier is a liar (I'm also on a Prayer-Man FB page).  So I'm not surprised about you having doubts about BWF.

Frazier also said at that conference that they accused HIM of being a suspect or the assassin, but he said at Lancer that he denied it and told the authorities off.  The retort by someone in a previous discussion on a Facebook page was that Frazier would've been too afraid to tell the cops off, and that he's lying about PM.  

I'm speculating here, but is it possible he was coerced into remaining silent or ambiguous (if not out right change his story) about Oswald's actions that day in order to assist the DPD/FBI to incriminate Oswald of the dastardly deed he was alleged to have committed?


P.S.  How do I only quote your response instead of both of ours?  Must I edit out my first post in yours in my reply?  Is there a setting to ignore a respondent's quotes? Thank you.
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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by greg parker on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 10:20 am

Gerry, easiest was is to copy the text you want to quote and then highlight and use the quote tool in the editor  (it looks like a cartoon speech bubble). 

We have spoken a fair bit here about the police technique known as the Reid Technique. That's what they used on Oswald and what they were using on Frazier to try and bluff a confession out of him at a time when conspiracy was still on the table.

I find it difficult to understand how Frazier could make that comment about seeing Oswald leaving from the side and no one at the conference grilling him about it.


Last edited by greg parker on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 11:00 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin


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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 10:23 am

Gerry,
if you go to quick reply at the bottom of the page then I think that allows an individual post, one that is not connected to other's posts. Others may have a better way to this but this gets me by. Greg will let you know any how.

I have genuinely tried to see Wes's lies from his perspective, I've tried to understand the predicament he faced and the possible coercion which may have been applied by the DPD to reach the conclusions of the official story.

Fraziers recent expose' of an alleged confrontation with Fritz in the midnight hours November 22nd does not ring true IMO. He had never mentioned this previously, and strange the story should surface just prior to the announcement of a possible book release. No I'm not buying that.

I concede it's possible that Wes was coerced to tell a version of events a certain way, but from what I've studied it seems unlikely and IMO implausible.

The Frazier carpark story alone is enough to convince many that Frazier lied without coercion. When his lies are viewed in unison with Linnie Mae Randle's concoction of lies and deceit then one is perfectly entitled to conclude that the pair lied to frame Lee Oswald. Not to assist police in railroading him and save their own skins. Although the net result was probably one in the same.

If you subscribe to PM being Oswald, as I do, then Frazier knew the dirty truth, and there aint no way no how he could not have known who was standing next to him a top of the steps at lunch hour November 22nd.
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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Gerry Simone on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 11:40 am

greg parker wrote:Gerry, easiest was is to copy the text you want to quote and then highlight and use the quote tool in the editor  (it looks like a cartoon speech bubble). 

We have spoken a fair bit here about the police technique known as the Reid Technique. That's what they used on Oswald and what they were using on Frazier to try and bluff a confession out of him at a time when conspiracy was still on the table.

I find it difficult to understand how Frazier could make that comment about seeing Oswald leaving from the side and no one at the conference grilling him about it.


Seems like they applied that technique to Frazier but wonder if they also used an accusation to coerce him, although that's a side issue.

As far as I can recall, the audience at Lancer in 2015 was civil and polite (the audience in Nov 2016 was a feisty one).

I will try to watch the presentation tonight (I think I bought the whole set) too see any audience reaction.


P.S.  I'm somewhat familiar with discussion forum features, but this quote feature includes previous quotes in the poster's that you respond to, instead of just the most recent.  Thanks for the tip.
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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Gerry Simone on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 11:44 am

Mick Purdy wrote:Gerry,
if you go to quick reply at the bottom of the page then I think that allows an individual post, one that is not connected to other's posts. Others may have a better way to this but this gets me by. Greg will let you know any how.

I have genuinely tried to see Wes's lies from his perspective, I've tried to understand the predicament he faced and the possible coercion which may have been applied by the DPD to reach the conclusions of the official story.

Fraziers recent expose' of an alleged confrontation with Fritz in the midnight hours November 22nd does not ring true IMO. He had never mentioned this previously, and strange the story should surface just prior to the announcement of a possible book release. No I'm not buying that.

I concede it's possible that Wes was coerced to tell a version of events a certain way, but from what I've studied it seems unlikely and IMO implausible.

The Frazier carpark story alone is enough to convince many that Frazier lied without coercion. When his lies are viewed in unison with Linnie Mae Randle's concoction of lies and deceit then one is perfectly entitled to conclude that the pair lied to frame Lee Oswald. Not to assist police in railroading him and save their own skins. Although the net result was probably one in the same.

If you subscribe to PM being Oswald, as I do, then Frazier knew the dirty truth, and there aint no way no how he could not have known who was standing next to him a top of the steps at lunch hour November 22nd.

I will have to look up Linnie Mae Randle's story again.

I will try to watch his presentation later tonight (I always order the whole set of presentations every time I attend the Lancer conference).

Yes, when I heard him say that he was initially accused (and I believe he said before Oswald was), and that he vociferously denied their allegation, I was quite surprised.

Thank you for your added input.
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Buell Wesley Frazier at Lancer Conference 2015

Post by Gerry Simone on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 9:06 am

Sorry for the quality (took this with my camera phone from a distance).  I watched the presentation DVD again and will report later tonight (duty calls).


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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Mick Purdy on Sun 12 Mar 2017, 10:09 am

Gerry Simone wrote:
greg parker wrote:Gerry, easiest was is to copy the text you want to quote and then highlight and use the quote tool in the editor  (it looks like a cartoon speech bubble). 

We have spoken a fair bit here about the police technique known as the Reid Technique. That's what they used on Oswald and what they were using on Frazier to try and bluff a confession out of him at a time when conspiracy was still on the table.

I find it difficult to understand how Frazier could make that comment about seeing Oswald leaving from the side and no one at the conference grilling him about it.


Seems like they applied that technique to Frazier but wonder if they also used an accusation to coerce him, although that's a side issue.

As far as I can recall, the audience at Lancer in 2015 was civil and polite (the audience in Nov 2016 was a feisty one).

I will try to watch the presentation tonight (I think I bought the whole set) too see any audience reaction.


P.S.  I'm somewhat familiar with discussion forum features, but this quote feature includes previous quotes in the poster's that you respond to, instead of just the most recent.  Thanks for the tip.









Seems like they applied that technique to Frazier but wonder if they also used an accusation to coerce him, although that's a side issue.




I'd hazard a guess and suggest that any accusation directed toward Frazier was part of the Reid technique also.
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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Goban Saor on Fri 17 Mar 2017, 11:10 am

The answer to the question in the thread title is yes: Frazier did indirectly identify Prayer Man as LH Oswald.

As above noted, the Prayer Man question has been put to BW Frazier twice, first by Gary Mack in 2013 and second by Albert Rossi in 2014. On neither occasion did BWF deny that PM was Oswald. In the circumstances, that can only mean that PM is Oswald.

Unless someone produces conclusive photographic or other evidence to the contrary, on the basis of BWF’s testimony alone the case for PM being Oswald is proved.

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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Sat 18 Mar 2017, 8:58 am

I agree that by Frazier not discounting Oswald as PM is revealing. If only he would just come out and say it outright.
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Re: Did Frazier Indirectly Identify Prayer Man

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