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Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

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Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 06 Jan 2017, 6:42 am

Police Officer Marrion Baker's First Affidavit, 11.22.1963
 
As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to that man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor.  The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5' 9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.
 
Short and sweet. His words are pretty clear as to what he saw.

FBI Report by Pinkston, 11.24.1963 (dictated 11.26.1963).
 
Detective BAKER, Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Dallas Police Department, advised that the Dallas Police Department motorcycle patrolman, who first entered the Texas School Book Depository Building with Mr. ROY TRULY and who observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD in the company snack bar on the second floor of that building immediately after the shooting of President KENNEDY was patrolman M. L. BAKER.
 
Note that these are Detective, not Police Officer, Baker’s reported words. They do not, therefore, necessarily represent anything Marrion Baker might have told the FBI himself.

FBI report by Vincent Drain, 11.29.1963 (dictated 11.29.1963).
 
M. L. BAKER, Patrolman, Dallas Police Department, Dallas, Texas, advised that he went into the building of the Texas School Book Depository shortly after President John F. Kennedy had been shot. He stated that he and Mr. ROY TRULY, the manager, observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD on the second floor of the building and he asked TRULY who that was and TRULY told him OSWALD was all right, that he worked in the building. He stated they proceeded on up the stairs and did not see OSWALD anymore until after his arrest by the Dallas Police Department.
 
Baker so far has said nothing about having spotted Oswald walking on the far side of a closed door and not a word that he himself went through this door to find Oswald in a room located near the middle of the building. Now Baker goes silent until his testimony to the Warren Commission.

Warren Commission Testimony, 3.25.1964
 
Mr. Baker: My intention was to go all the way to the top where I thought the shots had come from, to see if I could find something there, you know, to indicate that.
Mr. Belin: And did you go all the way up to the top of the stairs right away?
Mr. Baker: No, sir; we didn't.
Mr. Baker: What happened?
Mr. Baker: As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.
Mr. Dulles: Where was he coming from, do you know?
Mr. Baker: No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.
Mr. Belin: What did you do then?
Mr. Baker: I ran on over there
Representative Boggs: You mean where he was?
Mr. Baker: Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.
Mr. Belin: What did you do?
Mr. Baker: I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He turned and walked right straight back to me.
Mr. Belin: Where were you at the time you hollered?
Mr. Baker: I was standing in the hallway between this door and the second door, right at the edge of the second door.
Mr. Belin: He walked back toward you then?
Mr. Baker: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin: I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 497 which appears to be a diagram of the second floor of the School Book Depository, and you will notice on this diagram there are circles with arrows. I want you to state, if you will, what number or the arrow approximates the point at which you were standing when you told him to "Come here". Is there a number on there at all or not?
Mr. Baker: This 24 would be the position where I was standing.
Mr. Belin: The arrow which is represented by No. 24, is that correct?
Mr. Baker: That is correct.
On Exhibit 497. When you first saw him in which direction was he walking?
Mr. Baker: He was walking east.
Mr. Belin: Was--his back was away from you, or not, as you first saw him?
Mr. Baker: As I first caught that glimpse of him, or as I saw him, really saw him?
Mr. Belin: As you really saw him.
Mr. Baker: He was walking away from me with his back toward me.
Mr. Dulles: Can I suggest if you will do this, put on there where the officer was and where Lee Oswald was, or the man who turned out to be Lee Oswald, and which direction he was walking in. I think that is quite important.
Mr. Belin: Yes, sir. We are going to get to that with one more question, if I can, sir. When you saw him, he then turned around, is that correct, and then walked back toward you?
Mr. Baker: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin: Was he carrying anything in his hands?
Mr. Baker: He had nothing at that time.
Mr. Belin: All right. Were you carrying anything in either of your hands?
Mr. Baker: Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. Belin: What were you carrying?
Mr. Baker: I had my revolver out.
Mr. Belin: When did you take your revolver out?
Mr. Baker: As I was starting up the stairway.
Mr. Belin: All right. Now, turning to Exhibit 497, if you would approximate on Exhibit 497 with a pen the point at which you saw this man in the lunch room when you told him to turn around.
Mr. Dulles: Could we get first where he first saw him.
Representative Boggs: You have that already.
Mr. Dulles: I don't think you have it on the chart where he was.
Mr. Belin: This is when he first saw him after he got in the room, sir. If I can go off the record.
Mr. Dulles: What I wanted to get is where he first saw him as he was standing down here, as he was going up the stairs and stopped and then in what direction he was--he seemed to be moving at that time before he saw.
Mr. Belin: Just answer the question, if you will. Where were you when you first caught a glimpse of this man?
Mr. Baker: I was just coming up these stain just around this corner right here.
Mr. Belin: All right. You were coming up the stairs at the point on Exhibit 497 where there are the letters "DN" marking down.
Mr. Baker: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin: And you saw something move through a door which is marked as what number on Exhibit 497?
Mr. Dulles: Where was he when you first saw him?
Mr. Baker: At this doorway right here, this 23.
Mr. Belin: At 23.
Representative Boggs: May I ask a couple of questions because I have to--
Mr. Belin: Surely.
Representative Boggs: Were you suspicious of this man?
Mr. Baker: No, sir; I wasn't.
Representative Boggs: And he came up to you, did he say anything to you?
Mr. Baker: Let me start over. I assumed that I was suspicious of everybody because I had my pistol out.
Representative Boggs: Right.
Mr. Baker: And as soon as I saw him, I caught a glimpse of him and I ran over there and opened that door and hollered at him.
Representative Boggs: Right.
Mr. Dulles: He had not seen you up to that point probably?
Mr. Baker: I don't know whether he had or not.
Representative Boggs: He came up to you?
Mr. Baker: Yes, sir; and when I hollered at him he turned around and walked back to me.
Representative Boggs: Right close to you?
Mr. Baker: And we were right here at this position 24, right here in this doorway.
Representative Boggs: Right. What did you say to him?
Mr. Baker: I didn't get anything out of him. Mr. Truly had come up to my side here, and I turned to Mr. Truly and I says, "Do you know this man, does he work here?" And he said yes, and I turned immediately and went on out up the stairs.
Mr. Belin: Then you continued up the stairway?
Representative Boggs: Let me ask one other question. You later, when you recognized this man as Lee Oswald, is that right, saw pictures of him?
Mr. Baker: Yes, sir. I had occasion to see him in the homicide office later that evening after we got through with Parkland Hospital and then Love Field and we went back to the City Hall and I went up there and made this affidavit.
 
Baker says stuff here he never said previously about the encounter with Oswald. Maybe all that time off since the previous November allowed him to think real good.

Voluntary Handwritten Statement to FBI, 9.23.1964
 
I, Marrion L. Baker, do hereby furnish this voluntary signed statement to Richard J. Burnett who has identified himself to me as a Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
I am employed as an officer with the Dallas police department and was so employed as of November 22, 1963.
On the early afternoon of that day after hearing what sounded like to me to be bullet shots, I entered the Texas School Book Depository Building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston Streets in downtown Dallas.
I had entered the building in an effort to determine if the shots might have come from this building.
On the second or third floor floor, [line out with initials MLB] where the lunch room is located, I saw a man standing in the lunch room, drinking a coke [line out with initials MLB].  He was alone in the lunch room at this time.
I saw no one else in the vicinity of the lunch room at this time.
ML Baker

One wonders why Baker needs to make a "voluntary" statement this late in the game in the first place, on the eve of the Warren Commission presenting its final report to President Johnson. And his "voluntary" statement doesn't resemble his Warren Commission testimony where he said he caught a glimpse of a man going into the lunchroom. And notice this: Baker doesn't even mention Oswald by name, referring to him as "a man."

Curious, eh?
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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by greg parker on Fri 06 Jan 2017, 7:35 am

Nice Job, Stan.

With that last statement, can you refresh my memory. Was it handwritten by the FBI or Baker?

If by the FBI, I think I can add something.

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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 06 Jan 2017, 7:50 am

Not sure exactly if it was written by Baker or for Baker and he signed it, Greg.

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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by Gary Murr on Fri 06 Jan 2017, 8:04 am

Gentlemen:

I believe the "general consensus" is that Baker did not write this rather hurriedly prepared statement, the day before the WC Report was released, but perhaps was constructed by SA Richard J. Burnett of the FBI, one of two individuals who "witnessed" this same statement [the other being Bobby Hargis of the DPD]. If you look closely at Baker's signature and where the placed his initials of statement correction, the writing does not appear to match that of the individual who prepared the statement for Baker's signature. There was a page "2" to this statement which has the witnessing signatures of Burnett and Hargis attached. If I knew how to attach a jpeg to this reply I would paste a copy of page 2. However, the link below to the Mary Ferrell site, should take you to page 2.

  Oops - just found out I was not allowed, as yet, to post a link to an external site. However, the page 2 I am referencing is part of CD 1526 and can be found on the Ferrell site.

 

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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by greg parker on Fri 06 Jan 2017, 8:30 am

Thanks Stan.

I think the sig is in a different hand so I am going with the FBI dictating or summarizing.

This relates to dictating a confession, but presumably could also be used for witness statements:


Douglas Starr wrote:When the suspect finally admits to the crime, you praise him for owning up and press for corroborating details. Then you work together to convert the admission into a full, written confession. If he seems to have trouble remembering the details, you can present multiple-choice questions. Where did you enter the house: the front, the back, through a window? As a finishing touch, you introduce some trivial mistakes into the document, which the suspect will correct and initial. That will show the court that the suspect understood what he was signing.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/09/the-interview-7

To me, the FBI was suspicious of Baker's story, and threw in those errors deliberately to test him.

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I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by greg parker on Fri 06 Jan 2017, 8:31 am

greg parker wrote:Thanks Stan.

I think the sig is in a different hand so I am going with the FBI dictating or summarizing.

This relates to dictating a confession, but presumably could also be used for witness statements:


Douglas Starr wrote:When the suspect finally admits to the crime, you praise him for owning up and press for corroborating details. Then you work together to convert the admission into a full, written confession. If he seems to have trouble remembering the details, you can present multiple-choice questions. Where did you enter the house: the front, the back, through a window? As a finishing touch, you introduce some trivial mistakes into the document, which the suspect will correct and initial. That will show the court that the suspect understood what he was signing.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/09/the-interview-7

To me, the FBI was suspicious of Baker's story, and threw in those errors deliberately to test him.
I should add of course that this is the Reid Technique in action and the above quoted story was used in my essay on this subject.

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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by greg parker on Fri 06 Jan 2017, 8:35 am

Gary Murr wrote:Gentlemen:

I believe the "general consensus" is that Baker did not write this rather hurriedly prepared statement, the day before the WC Report was released, but perhaps was constructed by SA Richard J. Burnett of the FBI, one of two individuals who "witnessed" this same statement [the other being Bobby Hargis of the DPD]. If you look closely at Baker's signature and where the placed his initials of statement correction, the writing does not appear to match that of the individual who prepared the statement for Baker's signature. There was a page "2" to this statement which has the witnessing signatures of Burnett and Hargis attached. If I knew how to attach a jpeg to this reply I would paste a copy of page 2. However, the link below to the Mary Ferrell site, should take you to page 2.

  Oops - just found out I was not allowed, as yet, to post a link to an external site. However, the page 2 I am referencing is part of CD 1526 and can be found on the Ferrell site.

 

Gary
Gary, I agree. The sig is in a different hand. 

Sorry about the hassle with links. The software is set up that way to discourage spammers. Can't recall the exact number, but you need to make a few posts before you can link.

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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 06 Jan 2017, 10:26 pm

Stan Dane wrote:Not sure exactly if it was written by Baker or for Baker and he signed it, Greg.

It is written by Richard Burnett.
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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 10 Jan 2017, 11:55 am

If I had been the guy riding on Baker's motorcycle on 11.22.1963 and I experienced this:
 
I heard shots, I pulled over, I jumped off, I ran in the door with Truly, we went to the back stairs and up to the second floor with gun drawn, I catch a glimpse of "a man" walking into the lunchroom, I run over and stick my gun in his gut, I challenge him, I get told he was "OK," then we make my way up to the fifth floor, we get on the elevator and go to the roof…
 
If that is what really happened, how could I say the following?

"As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to that man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor"?
 
There's no way I get it that wrong. No way.

Speaking for myself here.
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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by Jake Sykes on Tue 10 Jan 2017, 2:25 pm

Speaking for myself, Stan. There's no way I would get that wrong either.

For that matter, speaking for a typical six year old kid, there's no way a typical six year old kid would get that wrong either. 

Prevarication is decidedly indicated in this instance, speaking for myself again here.
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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 10 Jan 2017, 7:32 pm

Jake Sykes wrote:Speaking for myself, Stan. There's no way I would get that wrong either.

For that matter, speaking for a typical six year old kid, there's no way a typical six year old kid would get that wrong either. 

Prevarication is decidedly indicated in this instance, speaking for myself again here.
Right. I mean damn, the guy just went though all of this only a few hours earlier. To get it that botched up is beyond the pale. As you say, a typical six year old would have been able to nail exactly what he'd done in similar circumstances.
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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by greg parker on Tue 10 Jan 2017, 11:17 pm

Baker's affidavit was what got me checking on the validity of the 2nd floor encounter to start with.

The resistance/excuses in those years included such gems as:

The stairs had landings in between each floor, so he  must have counted landings as a floors.

He didn't mention that the person he saw was sitting in the same office where his affidavit was being taken because that was not police procedure.

He didn't mention that the person he saw was sitting in the same office where the affidavit was being taken in case Oswald turned out to be innocent.

He didn't view a line-up because police do not view line-ups. 

& probably a few more that I've forgotten.

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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Tue 10 Jan 2017, 11:56 pm

I'm so fucking fed up with these twats who stubbornly cling on to the second floor encounter fairy tale. I don't even want to talk about it anymore. It's dead and buried.
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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 6:36 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:I'm so fucking fed up with these twats who stubbornly cling on to the second floor encounter fairy tale. I don't even want to talk about it anymore. It's dead and buried.
Same here bro. I'm not sure why they persist in defending it with such zeal. They regard it as gospel. It really is sad to witness. These guys are just as bad as LNs in my view. WC defenders.
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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 11:40 pm

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:
Hasan Yusuf wrote:I'm so fucking fed up with these twats who stubbornly cling on to the second floor encounter fairy tale. I don't even want to talk about it anymore. It's dead and buried.
Same here bro. I'm not sure why they persist in defending it with such zeal. They regard it as gospel. It really is sad to witness. These guys are just as bad as LNs in my view. WC defenders.

In a way, I reckon they're worse than LNs. Fuck em!
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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 13 Jan 2017, 11:38 am

Second Floor scum
Vestibule Denialists
Stairwell Dwellers
Baker's Men

What Hasan Said.
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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 13 Jan 2017, 11:49 am

Stan Dane wrote:If I had been the guy riding on Baker's motorcycle on 11.22.1963 and I experienced this:
 
I heard shots, I pulled over, I jumped off, I ran in the door with Truly, we went to the back stairs and up to the second floor with gun drawn, I catch a glimpse of "a man" walking into the lunchroom, I run over and stick my gun in his gut, I challenge him, I get told he was "OK," then we make my way up to the fifth floor, we get on the elevator and go to the roof…
 
If that is what really happened, how could I say the following?

"As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to that man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor"?
 
There's no way I get it that wrong. No way.
Speaking for myself here.
I find the fact Baker couldn't get his shit straight, even as they were publishing his claims, beyond humorous.
In Truly I find no humor. Only disdain for what he did. Set the fox out then called the fucking hounds.
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Re: Chronology of Marrion Baker Statements

Post by barto on Sat 14 Jan 2017, 9:11 am

Set the fox out then called the fucking hounds.


Love that!

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