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First to Second

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Re: First to Second

Post by Stan Dane on Thu 12 Jan 2017, 12:24 pm

On 11.23.1963 while Jesse Curry was talking to reporters in the corridors of Dallas City Hall, there were three interesting exchanges: 

REPORTER: Has he admitted that he was in the building at the time the shots were fired. 
CURRY: Yes.

Curry seems to think twice here. 

CURRY: Well, we know he couldn't deny that, we have witnesses.
REPORTER: But he did deny it, didn't he?
CURRY: He denies everything.

REPORTER: Did you say, Chief, that a policeman had seen him in the building?
CURRY: Yes.
REPORTER: After the shot was fired?
CURRY: Yes.
REPORTER: Why didn’t he arrest him then?
CURRY: Because the manager of the place told us that he was an employee, that he’s alright, he’s an employee.
REPORTER: Did he look suspicious to the policeman at this point?
CURRY: I imagine the policeman was checking everyone he saw as he went into the building.

REPORTER: Does he say he was anywhere else at the time this was happening?
 
Again Curry seems hesitant to commit to a straight answer: 

CURRY: I don’t know. He says he was at the building, he says he was there because he worked there.
 
Sean Murphy said it seemed that Curry's answers were pointing to a front entrance encounter between Oswald and Baker: a boundary/threshold place that is technically "in the building," certainly "at the building"—but not really inside the building. Curry cannot quite say that Oswald is "admitting" to being "in the building." Nor, however, can he quite say that Oswald is denying being "in the building."
 
If Curry was aware that Oswald had been naming the front steps or front entrance or vestibule/lobby area as his location, then Curry's ambiguous answers make sense. Especially as his words about the policeman "checking everyone he saw as he went into the building" seal the deal: "out in front."

But First to Second Evolution was already well along in the process of messing up the deal.

TO BE CONTINUED


Last edited by Stan Dane on Sun 15 Jan 2017, 11:17 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : tyyyypppooo)
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Re: First to Second

Post by Stan Dane on Thu 12 Jan 2017, 6:12 pm

French Le Figaro correspondent Leo Sauvage was puzzled by press references to Oswald's sipping a coke when the police officer saw him, so he asked Roy Truly about it in early 1964. Truly told him: "From where I stood, I couldn’t see if Oswald held something in his hand."* 
 
Huh?
 
Showtime. Warren Commission. Roy Truly is up to bat. 

Warren Commission Testimony of Roy S. Truly, 3.24.1964
 
Mr. BELIN: All right. Could you see whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald had anything in either hand?
Mr. TRULY: I noticed nothing in either hand.
Mr. BELIN: Did you see both of his hands?
Mr. TRULY: I am sure I did. I could be wrong, but I am almost sure. I did.
 
Why the change? To cut to the chase, it had become painfully clear to the Warren Commission that an Oswald with a Coke already in his hand—meaning an Oswald who had already reached into his pocket, already had pulled out change, already had inserted the correct change, already selected his beverage of choice, already had waited for the "chunk clunk" of the machine to deliver his pop, already had uncapped it and commenced to drinking—this is an Oswald with even less time to descend from the sixth floor (and in case you're wondering, time was critical folks).
 
Through "unnatural selection," First to Second Evolution determined that Oswald drinking a Coke when a police officer came barging through the door was a trait that no longer was useful so it was excised out of the story. 

Not that the story got appreciably better, but it was different, and that was the important thing.
 
*The Oswald Affair: An examination of the contradictions and omissions of the Warren report, Leo Sauvage, 1966, p. 30.

TO BE CONTINUED
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Re: First to Second

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 13 Jan 2017, 5:23 am

It's a new day and a new opportunity to excel. Marrion Baker steps up to the plate: 

Warren Commission Testimony of Marrion L. Baker, 3.25.1964

Mr. BAKER: As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from thisI happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.
...
Mr. BAKER: Now, through this window you can't see too much but I just caught a glimpse of him through this window going away from me and as I ran to this door and opened it, and looked on down in the lunchroom he was on down there about 20 feet so he was moving about as fast as I was.
 

 
Oswald was "moving about as fast" into the lunchroom as Baker was moving from the landing just off the stairway to the door? How did that happen?
 
Baker's story is that he "ran" to the door in order to go after a man he had glimpsed "walking away." Yet we are to believe that they covered about the same distance in the same time—i.e., that Baker running did not cover more ground than Oswald walking.
 
Evolution is not without irony.
 
From the book: 

Stan Dane, Prayer Man: Out of the Shadows and Into the Light wrote:It's a nonsensical scenario, said Sean, so nonsensical that one wonders why Baker is making such a transparently unrealistic claim. Why doesn't he just say that Oswald was running? Or, alternatively, that Oswald was only a few feet into the lunchroom by the time he himself opened the door and looked into the lunchroom? The short answer is Baker has to merge by force two stories that cannot easily be merged:

1.) I saw a man walking away (as per Baker's November 22 affidavit).
2.) I saw Oswald standing by the coke machine (as per a later draft of the story, as told by [or to?] Roy Truly).

Baker has a real problem here: his November 22 affidavit talked of "a man walking away from the stairway." For Oswald, just behind the glass pane, to be "walking away" in any commonsense meaning of the words, he would need to be walking into—a wall.



From Baker's vantage point "A," the lunchroom is sharply off to the left, not straight ahead—not even close. So Baker, in his Warren Commission performance, has to split his affidavit's single description of a man "walking away" into two incidences of walking away.
 
The result is an awful mess.
 
The one thing Baker desperately needs to say—that his first glimpse of Oswald had him "walking away from the stairway"—is the one thing the layout of the landing/door/lunchroom disallows him from saying. And so we get a hesitation around the words "walking away": 

Warren Commission Testimony of Marrion L. Baker, 3.25.1964
 
Mr. BAKER: As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this—I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.
Mr. DULLES: Where was he coming from, do you know?
Mr. BAKER: No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.
 
"I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this—"…if only Baker could finish the thought with the one magic word indelibly etched into his mind: "stairway."
 
But he can't, for to do so would be to make a ridiculous claim that would only draw attention to the discrepancies between his current story and the story told in his affidavit.
 
Excruciatingly, Oswald walking directly away from Baker's position such that Baker can call to him and have him turn around and come back to where Baker is, has to be held back until Baker has left the stairway and gone over to the door: 

Warren Commission Testimony of Marrion L. Baker, 3.25.1964
 
Mr. BAKER: There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.
Mr. BELIN: What did you do?
Mr. BAKER: I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He turned and walked right straight back to me.
 
Baker is now, at last, giving a story that sounds a little more like his November 22 affidavit story: 

Police Officer Marrion Baker's First Affidavit, 11.22.1963
 
As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to that man and he turned around and came back toward me.
 
But only a little.
 
Baker's two stories—his November 22 affidavit plus his Warren Commission testimony—are still irreconcilable. Even after the heavy coaching that Baker has been put through ahead of his Warren Commission appearance (you see much evidence of this reading his entire WC testimony), we still are being asked to believe that an indeterminate glimpse of a man moving behind a door located well off the stairway could be described as a sighting of "a man walking away from the stairway."
 
The plain sense of those words in Baker's November 22 affidavit cannot be ignored: the man had just left the stairway and was putting distance between it and him. That's what "walking away from" means, and it's how Baker himself is using those words in his Warren Commission testimony.
 
But with the Warren Commission, all things—including plain, common sense—are ignored if they don't support First to Second Evolution.
 
TO BE CONTINUED
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Re: First to Second

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 13 Jan 2017, 11:17 am

....as Truly ghosts his way past a descending Oswald, among others.

Thanks for pointing out the collided stories from Baker.

Carry on!
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Re: First to Second

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 13 Jan 2017, 11:48 am

Ed. Ledoux wrote:....as Truly ghosts his way past a descending Oswald, among others.

Thanks for pointing out the collided stories from Baker.

Carry on!

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Re: First to Second

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 13 Jan 2017, 5:45 pm

We have seen Roy Truly's lunchroom story evolve over the first ten days or so through the following stages:

● The officer saw Oswald in the lunchroom...
● The officer saw Oswald sitting at one of the tables in the lunchroom...
● The officer saw Oswald leaning against a counter in the lunchroom...
● The officer (what's his name again?) saw Oswald standing at the Coke machine sipping a Coke in the lunchroom...

Yet Truly's Warren Commission testimony made it clear that Truly himself could have seen none of these things. All he actually said he saw was the officer standing at the lunchroom door with his gun up against Oswald, who was standing just inside the lunchroom door.
 
Listen to Truly 'splain it all: 

Warren Commission Testimony of Roy S. Truly, 3.24.1964
 
Mr. TRULY: I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN: It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?
Mr. TRULY: The chances are it was closed.
Mr. BELIN: You thought you opened it?
Mr. TRULY: I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.
Mr. BELIN: What did you see?
Mr. TRULY: I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN: And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY: He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.
Mr. BELIN: All right.
Mr. TRULY: 2 or 3 feet, possibly.
Mr. BELIN: …What did you see or hear the officer say or do?
Mr. TRULY: When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."
Mr. BELIN: And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY: Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN: All right. Let me ask you this now. How far was the officer's gun from Lee Harvey Oswald when he asked the question?
Mr. TRULY: It would be hard for me to say, but it seemed to me like it was almost touching him.
Mr. BELIN: What portion of his body?
Mr. TRULY: Towards the middle portion of his body.
Mr. BELIN: Could you see Lee Harvey Oswald's hands?
Mr. TRULY: Yes.
Mr. BELIN: Could you see--
Mr. TRULY: I am sure I could, yes. I could see most of him, because I was looking in the room on an angle, and they were this way.
Mr. BELIN: When you say you were looking in the room on an angle--
Mr. TRULY: What I mean--this door offsets the lunchroom door.
Mr. BELIN: By this door, you mean door No. 23 is at an angle to door No. 24?
Mr. TRULY: Yes. One this way and the other one is this way.
Mr. BELIN: All right. Could you see whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald had anything in either hand?
Mr. TRULY: I noticed nothing in either hand.
Mr. BELIN: Did you see both of his hands?
Mr. TRULY: I am sure I did. I could be wrong, but I am almost sure. I did.
Mr. BELIN: About how long did Officer Baker stand there with Lee Harvey Oswald after you saw them?
Mr. TRULY: He left him immediately after I told him--after he asked me, does this man work here. I said, yes. The officer left him immediately.
Mr. BELIN: Did you hear Lee Harvey Oswald say anything?
Mr. TRULY: Not a thing.
Mr. BELIN: Did you see any expression on his face? Or weren't you paying attention?
Mr. TRULY: He didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything. He might have been a bit startled, like I might have been if somebody confronted me. But I cannot recall any change in expression of any kind on his face.

Mr. DULLES: May I ask you a question? Do you know why it was that the officer didn't follow you up the stairs, but instead was distracted, as it were, and went with Lee Harvey Oswald into the lunchroom?
Mr. TRULY: I never knew until a day or two ago that he said he saw a movement, saw a man going away from him.
Mr. DULLES: As he was going up the stairs?
Mr. TRULY: As he got to the second floor landing. While I was going around, he saw a movement.
Mr. DULLES: And he followed that?
Mr. TRULY: That is right.
Representative FORD: He saw a movement in the lunchroom or a man go into the lunchroom?
Mr. TRULY: He saw the back of a man inside the door--I suppose door No. 23. But that isn't my statement. I didn't learn about that, you see, until the other day.

Mr. BELIN: Now, by the way, I have used the name Officer Baker. When did you find out what his name was?
Mr. TRULY: I never did know for sure what his name was until he was down to the building and you were interviewing him last week.
Mr. BELIN: This was on Friday, March 20th.
Mr. TRULY: I had heard his name was Baker or Burton or various other names. But I never did try to find out what his name was.
 
("Never did try to find out what his name was"…huh?)
 
This is where First to Second Evolution has taken us.
 
But are we done yet?
 
TO BE CONTINUED
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Re: First to Second

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 13 Jan 2017, 6:54 pm

Baker greased his own track I see.

Truly stoked the fire...

How would anyone hear anything in the running up the rickety old stairwell... coke machine or clog dancer? Utter bs. No wonder they kept folks out of this place. It would unravel the lies Truly told. Truly started his lies with the limo almost hitting the curb. If he was where we see him in Darnell or Wiegman then he was not near the curb but behind others whom were blocking his view. No matter where he was, the closer he puts himself to the curb the worse for his story it is. He could see the limo make a normal turn left for a limousine if he was at the curb.

But back to Baker and the stories impacting,,

Was Baker frozen in time, waiting for Truly to appear as he held his weapon to a man drinking a fizzy beverage, .. scratch that, ... as he held his weapon to a man holding change, no better scratch that too, ....as he held his weapon to a man whom hand empty hands. And what was next step in Bakers mind here? Shoot first, then ask Lee whom he is....
Good thing Truly found Baker...saved that Acme night cleaning crew a heap a trouble.
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Re: First to Second

Post by Stan Dane on Sat 14 Jan 2017, 3:53 am

Truly and Baker have now told their stories to the Warren Commission and it was what it was. They answered all the questions directed to them, and while some of those answers may not have been totally satisfactory, the questions were answered.
 
Looking back, we have absolutely nothing on-the-record from Baker himself between the end of November 1963 and his Warren Commission testimony in March 1964. While Baker was…somewhere, it was Truly who frog-marched us through the process of First to Second Evolution to get us to the point we were now at:
 
Baker glimpsed Oswald going into the second floor lunchroom and Truly said uh-huh.
 
Now the deal was done. The time for questions was over. Nothing left to do.
 
But like the Lord, First to Second Evolution worked in mysterious ways.

TO BE CONTINUED
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Re: First to Second

Post by Stan Dane on Sat 14 Jan 2017, 7:46 pm

Believe it or not, on September 23, 1964, there was still something left for Roy Truly and Marrion Baker to do.
 
The next day, September 24 was to be the presentation of the final Warren Commission Report to President Johnson. Truly and Baker were asked to go back on the record to clarify an important point: was Oswald on his own in the Second Floor lunchroom when they saw him just after the assassination?
 
There had been press reports—based in large part upon statements made by Jesse Curry communicating with the press on November 23—that Oswald was with others in the room when the officer came in. Didn't want to fuel any messy conspiracy theories over loose ends. Let's get it right!

Roy Truly Voluntary Handwritten Statement to FBI, 9.23.1964
 
I, ROY S. TRULY, do hereby furnish this voluntary statement to Richard J. Burnett who has identified himself to me to be a Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
I am the Superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository located at 411 Elm Street, Dallas Texas, and was so employed as of November 22, 1963.
On the above date and just as President Kennedy's motorcade passed in front of my building, I reentered the building with a Dallas police officer after some shots had been heard coming from the general vicinity.
The officer and I proceeded to the stairways located in the northwest corner of the Texas School Book Depository building in order to proceed to the upper part of the building to see if we could see who had fired the shots.
I was leading the way up the stairs and the police officer was following me. After I was starting to ascend the stairs towards the third floor from the second floor, I noticed that the police
 
– Page 2 –
 
officer was talking to someone in the lunch room located on the second floor.
I then went to the lunch room where I saw the officer facing Lee Harvey Oswald. Oswald was by himself in the lunch room. There was no one else in the vicinity of the lunch room on the second floor other than Oswald, the police officer and myself.
I identified Oswald to the police officer as an employee of the Texas School Book Depository.
I have read this statement consisting of this page and one other page and t is true and correct to the best of my recollection.
 
x RS Truly
  Roy S Truly
  
Witnesses
Richard J. Burnett Special Agent, F.B.I., 9/23/64, Dallas
William H. Shelley 126 S. Tatum Dallas 11, Tex 9-23-64
 
Truly says no one else was in the lunchroom other than Oswald, himself and the police officer. Everything else is pretty much consistent with his Warren Commission testimony.  Either Truly dictated this statement to FBI Special Agent Richard J. Burnett or it was prepared for him and he signed it as being true.
 
Same with Baker here: 

Marrion Baker Voluntary Handwritten Statement to FBI, 9.23.1964
 
I, Marrion L. Baker, do hereby furnish this voluntary signed statement to Richard J. Burnett who has identified himself to me as a Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
I am employed as an officer with the Dallas police department and was so employed as of November 22, 1963.
On the early afternoon of that day after hearing what sounded like to me to be bullet shots, I entered the Texas School Book Depository Building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston Streets in downtown Dallas.
I had entered the building in an effort to determine if the shots might have come from this building.
On the second or third floor floor, [line out with initials MLB] where the lunch room is located, I saw a man standing in the lunch room, drinking a coke [line out with initials MLB].  He was alone in the lunch room at this time.
I saw no one else in the vicinity of the lunch room at this time.
ML Baker
 
– Page 2 –
 
I have read this statement consisting of this page and one other page and it is true and correct to the best of my knowledge. I have initialed each page and each correction.
 
x Marrion L Baker
 
Witnesses
Richard J. Burnett Special Agent, F.B.I., 9/23/64, Dallas
Bobby W. Hargis #1082 Dallas Police Dept.
 
Like Truly, Baker says no one else was in the lunchroom other than Oswald. But Baker's statement doesn't look like his Warren Commission testimony.
 
Forget about the corrections for a momentwhy they may be there and what they may suggestBaker doesn't mention catching "a glimpse of him" through a window going away from him as he ran to a door and opened it and looked on down in the lunchroom where Oswald was on down there about 20 feet moving about as fast as he was. He sees "a man standing in the lunch room."
 
It's as if Baker is having a hard time keeping up with First to Second Evolution.
 
TO BE CONTINUED
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Re: First to Second

Post by Stan Dane on Sat 14 Jan 2017, 10:08 pm

When I was a boy growing up in rural Michigan, a man my father worked with gave us a black sheepdog he could no longer keep. The dog, Samson, was about six years old and he fit right in with our family. Many months after we got him, Samson got loose and escaped from our yard. We couldn't find him anywhere. A day later, the original owner, who lived about 5 miles away, called to let us know Samson was sitting on his front porch. We picked him up and had no more problems.
 
About three years later, we found Samson missing one morning. We drove around the countryside looking for him. He was nowhere to be seen. Then my dad got a hunch. He drove over to the original owner's house and viola, there was Samson sitting on the front porch! 

We realized, even though he was totally familiar with us as a family and was happy and content, Samson was never able to shake the knowledge of where his first home was.
 

 
We have just seen where Marrion Baker was brought back to clarify some things for the Warren Commission. In March 1964, he had testified at length about catching a glimpse of a man through the window of a door leading to the second floor lunchroom. Now, six months later, Baker's handwritten statement looked different. 

Why?
 
We've pointed out a lot of evidence for First to Second Evolution over the days and weeks following the assassination. It must have been difficult for Officer Baker to keep up with all of the changes.
 
We can be sure he was thoroughly briefed on the "game plan" prior to his Warren Commission appearance, but after six months, his original memory and the things he said in his November 22, 1963 affidavit kicked in and overshadowed his shaky WC testimony.
 
I believe, like Samson the sheepdog, Marrion Baker always ran back to what he first knew.

NEXT: CONCLUSION


Last edited by Stan Dane on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 4:52 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : typos)
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Re: First to Second

Post by Jake Sykes on Sat 14 Jan 2017, 11:53 pm

As readers consider the compelling facts that you are laying out so well for us Stan, they may ask a simple, valid question, "What was Baker's motivation or state of mind in going along with what he had to know was a fabrication for framing Oswald?"

Oswald killed Tippet, no? While it may be underhanded to massage the facts regarding Oswald's when and whereabouts in the TSBD, who cares if it puts away a cop killer? He had to have had something to do with the assassination or all these people wouldn't be working so damn hard to pin it on him. Go with the flow dude. Retire comfortably.

Motive and state of mind. Baker had them in spades.
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Re: First to Second

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 15 Jan 2017, 5:50 am

This thread was created as an exercise to consolidate some of the key evidence in one spot supporting relocation of the Oswald-Baker-Truly encounter from the front of the TSBD to the second floor lunchroom. Not having a perfect memory, I found myself having to page though my book quite often and other sources as well when discussing this subject with others. Nothing was really laid out chronologically in a stripped-down manner. Not that it is now in the fullest sense with this thread, but it's better, for me at least.
 
A couple of things. What I've laid out here is not a totally thorough or exhaustive look at this—far from it. I said earlier that evolution is not an entirely linear process, but it's branching as well. I've selected what I consider to be the main taproot of information. There are many other things that branch off from this that are relevant and connected to the story too.
 
For example, I didn't talk here about Victoria Adams, Sandra Styles, Carolyn Arnold, Jack Dougherty, Buell Wesley Frazier, Billy Lovelady, Jeraldean Reid, Bill Shelley, or many others. They are all connected to the taproot and are important to the overall story.
 
More significantly, I never talked about what went on down on the front steps. There was no discussion of Darnell or Wiegman, no use of the term Prayer Man. There's a reason for that. The case for First to Second Evolution does not hinge on what is seen in some picture. It is only enhanced by it.
 
Finally, my posts here are simply my approach to laying it out. Others would do it differently, many probably better than I have. They might have chosen a different sequence on some things, included facts I did not, expanded the story to encompass some broader, relevant issues. I have a perspective, but not the perspective.

When I started this, I didn't know how far it would go. But right now this is a good point to wrap up the planned series of installments. But this does not the end the discussion.

I think it would be valuable to build an exhaustive timeline for all of the evidence supporting a relocation of the front-of-house encounter ultimately up to the second floor. (Easy for me to say!) Bart Kamp is doing some fantastic work in general here and I'll wait to see the fruits of all his labor before embarking on any further projects. I prefer standing on the shoulders of others.

When it comes to the second floor lunchroom encounter, Greg Parker—my favorite researcher—is Grand Poobah. I've asked him to provide comments on this thread and to correct any errors or wrong impressions I may have created along the way.

First to Second Evolution-Prayer Man is what separates ROKC from all the rest. I have found this exercise to be valuable and worthwhile. I hope you did too.


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Re: First to Second

Post by Goban Saor on Sun 15 Jan 2017, 7:21 am

Thanks for that excellent job of work, Stan.

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Re: First to Second

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Sun 15 Jan 2017, 7:50 am

Goban Saor wrote:Thanks for that excellent job of work, Stan.
What Goban said. 
I'd just like to add that when Leo Sauvage interviewed Truly for his article  in 1964 called The Oswald Affair which has been referred to already in this series, Truly states to him in his recollection that Baker went ahead of him up the stairs and stopped Oswald at the 2nd floor. This second floor encounter was all messed up and mutated through the process of evolution:

"...We ran to the freight elevators in the back of the building because the front elevators do not go beyond the fourth floor, but the two freight cars had both been left somewhere up in the top floors and we took the stairs, the officer ahead of me. When I reached the second-floor landing, the officer was already at the open door of the lunchroom, some twenty or twenty-five feet away. No, I couldn’t tell you exactly how much time it took, all this, but it wasn’t long…”
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Re: First to Second

Post by greg parker on Sun 15 Jan 2017, 10:15 am

Stan, 

this puts it all in context and perspective and does it neatly and concisely. Just what the doctor ordered!

As Stavros Ellis said, Baker was none too bright, so he had to be kept on ice while others patchworked and massaged the story in readiness for him to present it to those nice judges at the Easter Show. 

Meanwhile Truly was used to test drive various experimental models for a largely comatose media, forcing the Secret Service to try and replicate these state-of-the-art post-truth realities to see which would best be served with fries to the starving masses. 

Let's finish by disposing of some myths


The debunking of the 2nd floor encounter was not undertaken to support Prayer Man research. The finding of Prayer Man came as a direct result of the 2nd floor encounter being debunked. In short, it stood on it's own for years  before PM came along, and thanks to the great work of Sean, Stan and Barto, it is reinforced and strengthened as stand-alone research.

Why would the plotters commit to a second floor encounter that exonerates Oswald? This is based on the false premise that a second floor encounter would have, should have, could have... somehow got Oswald off the hook. This argument always amuses me. One floor down exonerates Oswald. But the second floor was shown to be possible. And that is all that they needed. They dd not need to show Oswald did the run from 6 to 2 - only that he could have done it in the time allowed.

This whole thing is too big - too many people are being accused of lying or being part of the plot. Therefore the second floor encounter must have happened. This is a logical fallacy. If the evidence shows x happened, then it happened, even if your own perception is that it makes no sense. Consider that your perception is wrong.

Finally, let's put to bed that we are dealing with something unusual or extraordinary here.
The assassination itself assuredly fits that description, but the investigation and the framing of an innocent man in the manner done, was in no way unusual or extraordinary.

Let's consider some other pertinent facts:

You are given a dangerous job. You are given few constraints in how you do it. It is not well paid, but has opportunities to make "black" money and other perks. You will enjoy great celebrity and promotion if you achieve a high success rate.

The above is a recipe for corruption, and it describes nearly every police force on earth in the 1960's.

I caught up for a coffee a few days ago with a friend who happens to be a barrister who started his career as a cop in 1960's Darlinghurst -  the red light district of Sydney. I asked him what it was like. His description sounded pretty much like Dallas. A couple of illustrative stories about his rookie days. He brought in a female who had been driving  a car which he knew had been involved in an accident but had left the scene. The desk sergeant told him to release her. He objected on the grounds that he had detained her and if he released her now, he was leaving himself open to a complaint. The sergeant advised she would not make any complaint. He found out later that she was a prostitute paying police protection. Another story was about how a cop had his service pistol stolen. Soon after that, an arrest was made on a sexual assault and they arbitrarily pinned the theft onto this guy, knowing full well it wasn't him. That charge was eventually dropped, but only because they realized they couldn't make it stick. He said corruption was rife right up through the ranks and that the police virtually ruled the area, and that clear up rates were high because extra or old crimes were often added to charges to get rid of unsolved crimes. He said it wasn't until about 1980 that the law was changed preventing police from using typed, unsigned statements as evidence. He said these were supposed to be an accurate account of what transpired during an interrogation (which were unrecorded of course), but often added to or altered what was said. Which brings us full circle, because that is precisely what happened with Oswald's interrogations. And should anyone object now as to why they did not just have Oswald admit guilt, let me say that the changes have to be the minimal needed, otherwise you expose the deception to be more easily discovered. 

Thanks for all of this Stan. It will come in very handy for me in the writing of my third volume.

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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Re: First to Second

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 11:10 pm

A thought occurred to me as I was looking at this image of the door to the little foyer on the second floor that leads to the lunchroom sharply to the left and to the office area straightaway down. I noticed the high amount of reflection on the window of the door. This was taken in daylight conditions, probably similar to 11.22.1963.
 
If I was Baker racing up to the top floor—the pigeons made me want to go there—would I even catch a glimpse of something on the other side of this glass? And even if I did, would it be a big deal? Wouldn't I expect some people to be on the lower floors of a business building during business hours?

His story just doesn't smell right.
 
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Re: First to Second

Post by Vinny on Tue 17 Jan 2017, 1:46 am

Great research,Stan.Thanks.

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Re: First to Second

Post by Stan Dane on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 8:37 am

The following is a qualitative doodling exercise that I was doing on PowerPoint and figured I might as well post it here. A preaching to the choir exercise.
 
I was looking at some second floor images and trying to visualize the path Truly and Baker said they took in their WC testimony and what Baker said he saw. Trying to walk in their shoes.
 
 
 
 
 
I drew a red arrow in the first image and the likely path crossing the second floor landing on the way up to the third floor.
 
The second image shows the view outside the lobby door looking at the stairs leading up to the third floor. I noted the edge of the column just past the open door. Someone would have to pass beyond the edge of the column to see through the door (open) or the window on the door (closed).
 
I wild-ass guessed a region in the first image where the view of the door window would be blocked by the column (just a guess, it's not perfect). I showed the how the region extends beyond the blind spot of the column in the second image.
 
The more I think about this, the more the facts further undermine a horribly weak explanation for Baker's reason for going into the second floor lunchroom in the first place. Not that we need any more undermining, but what the hell.
 
The foyer door was reportedly self-closing. Baker says he catches a glimpse of Oswald through the window of the door. So the door had to be closed.
 
I did a quick check to see if there are any standards for self-closing doors. The only thing I could find (again, a quick check) was an ANSI standard, A156.10-1999, for power operated doors. Under the section for swinging doors, there is a table of minimum closing times for various door sizes, ranging from 2.0 to 3.2 seconds. I have a manual self-closing door leading from our laundry room to the garage. I did a couple of tests and the average closing time was about 2.5 seconds, and that door closes briskly. I think it's fair to assume the foyer door would take at least 2 seconds to close in 1963 (longer if it closed more slowly). Like size, seconds matter.

Watch your clock. 90 seconds goes by real quick.  
 
Oswald was supposed to have done everything thing they say he did on the sixth floor, run down four flights of stairs, pass through the foyer door on his way to the lunchroom because he's thirsty from all the shoot 'em up, Baker spots him through this closed door passing into the lunchroom.
 
Maybe Oswald was doing a version of "Herky-Jerky," where he's moving, suddenly stops on a dime, then resumes his former speed. Stop and go. Baker glimpses Oswald while he's stopped. Then he goes. Ludicrous. Of course. 

The second floor lunchroom is BS foisted upon us by powerful people who smugly thought we'd never even read their shitty report.
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Re: First to Second

Post by steely dan on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 9:40 am

Baker may have had a "sharp eye", Stan. Some people claim that gift.
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Re: First to Second

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 3:54 pm

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:
Goban Saor wrote:Thanks for that excellent job of work, Stan.
What Goban said. 
I'd just like to add that when Leo Sauvage interviewed Truly for his article  in 1964 called The Oswald Affair which has been referred to already in this series, Truly states to him in his recollection that Baker went ahead of him up the stairs and stopped Oswald at the 2nd floor. This second floor encounter was all messed up and mutated through the process of evolution:

"...We ran to the freight elevators in the back of the building because the front elevators do not go beyond the fourth floor, but the two freight cars had both been left somewhere up in the top floors and we took the stairs, the officer ahead of me. When I reached the second-floor landing, the officer was already at the open door of the lunchroom, some twenty or twenty-five feet away. No, I couldn’t tell you exactly how much time it took, all this, but it wasn’t long…”
Nice quote Paul,
Something you would not get wrong if it had actually happened... running up behind a cop vs leading a cop


Truly is source of so many chinese whispers and half truths no wonder he gets confused what he's supposed to say;

The rear stairs were dangerous, so no one was on them is what Truly was implying,,,
forget Adams-Styles-Otis Williams-Williams-Norman-Jarman, thus no one would see Oswald.
But instead of having the stairs fixed the priorities are to totally renovate the building for the book concerns. Then re-floor the storage areas... but those dangerous stairs nah no sense in having them redone. Likely because they were safe and replacing them would serve zero purpose.

The myths Truly injected are subtle, effective and complete bullshit. IMO.

The low ceilings allowing Lee to get down quicker...
the limo almost hitting the curb...
and other tid bits of unsubstantiated hogwash are what they let this charlatan get away with,
especially if it helped the boys in Washington.

We need a whole thread on Trulyisms.
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Re: First to Second

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 23 Jan 2017, 4:16 am

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Re: First to Second

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 23 Jan 2017, 4:45 pm

So pretty much like regular evolution.

It is actually adaptation, but you won't hear that from me
Too bad Darwin didn't have DNA to shut him up. But Mendel did and blamed it on Chuck's heredity.
We ran the genetic analysis on the lunchroom "encounter" and it came back negative. Its not Lee's baby!!
Marion Baker though is not highly evolved enough to do anything but ape what he was told.
Roy Truly just monkeys with the story, but has two 'tales'...

I got more theories on this but none like evolution, mine had to be repeatable and observable.

Cheers, Ed
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Re: First to Second

Post by Terry W. Martin on Tue 24 Jan 2017, 2:37 am

Ed. Ledoux wrote:So pretty much like regular evolution.

It is actually adaptation, but you won't hear that from me
Too bad Darwin didn't have DNA to shut him up. But Mendel did and blamed it on Chuck's heredity.
We ran the genetic analysis on the lunchroom "encounter" and it came back negative. Its not Lee's baby!!
Marion Baker though is not highly evolved enough to do anything but ape what he was told.
Roy Truly just monkeys with the story, but has two 'tales'...

I got more theories on this but none like evolution, mine had to be repeatable and observable.

Cheers, Ed

Yep, pretty much like regular evolution: too many missing links.

But, hey!, if you can get the Smithsonian to re-purpose those thousands of evolution-hunter/gatherers, maybe in the next century they could have better luck than they had cracking Darwin's missing links.

I won't hold my breath...
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Re: First to Second

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Tue 24 Jan 2017, 2:03 pm

Thanks Terry and Stan,
Got a herniated disc from laughing too hard.
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Re: First to Second

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 24 Feb 2017, 3:22 am

Ed. Ledoux wrote:One often becomes confused with times etc. when one has to incorporate a lie into their statements, as it doesn't fit and causes problems and inconsistencies. Just look at Marion Baker, also not a retard but looks ridiculous under examination as he had to merge two stories, and couldn't.

:: From my blog ::

Merging stories

In an effort to "showcase 50 years of automotive innovation," Ford and the National Inventors Hall of Fame Museum in Alexandria, Virginia recently unveiled a permanent new display: a 1965 and a 2015 Mustang fused together lengthwise.



It might showcase innovation, but it also showcases the fact that the two Mustangs don't fit.  

Marrion Baker testified before the Warren Commission on March 25, 1964 that Lee Oswald was just behind the door with the glass pane when he first glimpsed him:

"Now, through this window you can't see too much but I just caught a glimpse of him through this window going away from me and as I ran to this door and opened it, and looked on down in the lunchroom he was on down there about 20 feet so he was moving about as fast as I was."



Oswald was "moving about as fast" into the lunchroom as Baker was moving from the landing just off the stairway to the door? It's hard to see how. Baker's story is that he "ran" to the door in order to go after a man he had glimpsed "walking away." Yet we are to believe that they covered about the same distance in the same time—i.e., that Baker running did not cover more ground than Oswald walking.

It's a nonsensical scenario, so ridiculous that one wonders why Baker is making such a transparently unrealistic claim. Why doesn't he just say that Oswald was running? Or, alternatively, that Oswald was only a few feet into the lunchroom by the time he himself opened the door and looked into the lunchroom?

The short answer is Baker has to merge two stories that cannot easily be merged:

1.) I saw a man walking away (per Baker's original November 22 affidavit).
2.) I saw Oswald standing by the coke machine (as per a later draft of the story, as told by Roy Truly).

As with the two Mustangs, Baker's two stories don't fit.
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