REOPENKENNEDYCASE
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
ROKC IS NOW CLOSED AND IS READ ONLY. WE THANK THOSE WHO HAVE SUPPORTED US OVER THE LAST 14 YEARS.


Search
Display results as :
Advanced Search
Latest topics
Brian says...Sat 30 Dec 2023, 4:33 pmEd.Ledoux
last drinks before the bar closesSat 30 Dec 2023, 2:46 pmTony Krome
The Mystery of Dirk Thomas KunertSat 30 Dec 2023, 1:23 pmTony Krome
Vickie AdamsSat 30 Dec 2023, 1:14 pmgreg_parker
Busted again: Tex ItaliaSat 30 Dec 2023, 9:22 amEd.Ledoux
The Raleigh CallSat 30 Dec 2023, 4:33 ambarto
Was Oswald ever confronted with the physical rifle?Sat 30 Dec 2023, 12:03 amCastroSimp
Who Dat? Fri 29 Dec 2023, 10:24 pmTony Krome
Log in
Social bookmarking
Social bookmarking reddit      

Bookmark and share the address of REOPENKENNEDYCASE on your social bookmarking website

Bookmark and share the address of REOPENKENNEDYCASE on your social bookmarking website
Keywords

prayer  tippit  David  11  Lifton  tsbd  9  Mason  4  Floor  3a  frazier  Weigman  Theory  Darnell  Humor  paine  beckley  2  doyle  Lankford  zapruder  +Lankford  3  fritz  hosty  

Like/Tweet/+1

Go down
greg_parker
greg_parker
Admin
Posts : 8331
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 66
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia
http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Sun 08 Jan 2017, 11:44 am
Steve,

your skepticism about the reality of this detachment got me wondering... and searching. The web is full of references to it - but all are JFK related and not necessarily based on anything solid.

Then I finally found something that indicates it was a real outfit.

Here's some info:


obit of Jack E. Earnest wrote:He enlisted in the United States Army Reserve in 1948 and served as an enlisted man in various units attaining the rank of Master Sergeant, was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in September, 1953 and assigned to the 847th CIC Detachment. In June 1956, he was assigned to the 488th Strategic Intelligence Detachment until 1962, achieving the rank of Captain. This latter assignment was primarily concerned with providing intelligence on Russian and other countries' status in exploration and production of oil and natural gas for use with other intelligence units in preparing and updating National Intelligence Summaries. - See more at: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/houstonchronicle/obituary.aspx?pid=160976735#sthash.mX3LJS6E.dpuf

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
avatar
Steve_Thomas
Posts : 142
Join date : 2016-10-12

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Mon 09 Jan 2017, 3:56 am
greg parker wrote:Steve,

your skepticism about the reality of this detachment got me wondering... and searching. The web is full of references to it - but all are JFK related and not necessarily based on anything solid.

Then I finally found something that indicates it was a real outfit.

Here's some info:


obit of Jack E. Earnest wrote:He enlisted in the United States Army Reserve in 1948 and served as an enlisted man in various units attaining the rank of Master Sergeant, was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in September, 1953 and assigned to the 847th CIC Detachment. In June 1956, he was assigned to the 488th Strategic Intelligence Detachment until 1962, achieving the rank of Captain. This latter assignment was primarily concerned with providing intelligence on Russian and other countries' status in exploration and production of oil and natural gas for use with other intelligence units in preparing and updating National Intelligence Summaries. - See more at: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/houstonchronicle/obituary.aspx?pid=160976735#sthash.mX3LJS6E.dpuf
Greg,

Thank you. This merits study.

Steve Thomas
avatar
Steve_Thomas
Posts : 142
Join date : 2016-10-12

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Mon 09 Jan 2017, 4:21 am
greg parker wrote:Steve,

your skepticism about the reality of this detachment got me wondering... and searching. The web is full of references to it - but all are JFK related and not necessarily based on anything solid.
Greg,

That interview with Crichton that I was asking about...

I saw a reference to it that said it was a July 6, 2001 Sixth Floor Museum, Oral History Collection interview.

I looked at their site, but didn't see Crichton's name in the list of people interviewed, so I don't know.

Steve Thomas
avatar
Steve_Thomas
Posts : 142
Join date : 2016-10-12

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Mon 09 Jan 2017, 5:27 am
greg parker wrote:Steve,

your skepticism about the reality of this detachment got me wondering... and searching.
Greg,

So who served under who?

"Russ Baker's new book, Family of Secrets, has some information on Whitmayer. In 1956 Jack Crichton, a close friend of George W. W. Bush, started up his own spy unit, the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment. Crichton served as the unit's commander under Lieutenant Colonel George Whitmeyer, who was in overall command of all Army Reserve units in East Texas."



http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=156778130
DPD Deputy Chief, George L. Lumpkin, drove the Pilot Car. Lumpkin was also a Captain in the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment. Lumpkin was also a Captain in the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment - the spy unit in Dallas created and led by ex-OSS, Col. Jack Crichton and was the highest ranking officer in the 488th and Col. Whitmeyer's superior.



See what I mean?

Steve Thomas
avatar
Steve_Thomas
Posts : 142
Join date : 2016-10-12

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Mon 09 Jan 2017, 8:59 am
greg parker wrote:Steve,

your skepticism about the reality of this detachment got me wondering... and searching. The web is full of references to it - but all are JFK related and not necessarily based on anything solid.

Then I finally found something that indicates it was a real outfit.

Here's some info:


obit of Jack E. Earnest wrote:He enlisted in the United States Army Reserve in 1948 and served as an enlisted man in various units attaining the rank of Master Sergeant, was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in September, 1953 and assigned to the 847th CIC Detachment. In June 1956, he was assigned to the 488th Strategic Intelligence Detachment until 1962, achieving the rank of Captain. This latter assignment was primarily concerned with providing intelligence on Russian and other countries' status in exploration and production of oil and natural gas for use with other intelligence units in preparing and updating National Intelligence Summaries. - See more at: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/houstonchronicle/obituary.aspx?pid=160976735#sthash.mX3LJS6E.dpuf
Greg,

You may be interested in this web page:
http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13248091-lt-col-jack-crichton?page=last
Scroll about 4/5 down the page and read about General Wainwright's re-organization of the Texas Reserve units in 1947. The 487th and 488th are mentioned.
I'm sorry, the web site has expired and I can't cut and paste.

I've read on several sites that the original 488th Strategic Intelligence Detachment morphed into the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment and started concentrating on subversives.

Steve Thomas
greg_parker
greg_parker
Admin
Posts : 8331
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 66
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia
http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Mon 09 Jan 2017, 9:47 am
Steve Thomas wrote:
greg parker wrote:Steve,

your skepticism about the reality of this detachment got me wondering... and searching.
Greg,

So who served under who?

"Russ Baker's new book, Family of Secrets, has some information on Whitmayer. In 1956 Jack Crichton, a close friend of George W. W. Bush, started up his own spy unit, the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment. Crichton served as the unit's commander under Lieutenant Colonel George Whitmeyer, who was in overall command of all Army Reserve units in East Texas."



http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=156778130
DPD Deputy Chief, George L. Lumpkin, drove the Pilot Car. Lumpkin was also a Captain in the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment. Lumpkin was also a Captain in the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment - the spy unit in Dallas created and led by ex-OSS, Col. Jack Crichton and was the highest ranking officer in the 488th and Col. Whitmeyer's superior.



See what I mean?

Steve Thomas
Both those should be read with some caution. Much as I like Russ, he has a Bush bias which can be disconcerting. The find-a-grave description is by my good friend, Linda Z. and is likely pulled from books or web articles as opposed to actual family history/knowledge.

We need primary sources.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
greg_parker
greg_parker
Admin
Posts : 8331
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 66
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia
http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Mon 09 Jan 2017, 10:04 am
Steve Thomas wrote:
greg parker wrote:Steve,

your skepticism about the reality of this detachment got me wondering... and searching. The web is full of references to it - but all are JFK related and not necessarily based on anything solid.

Then I finally found something that indicates it was a real outfit.

Here's some info:


obit of Jack E. Earnest wrote:He enlisted in the United States Army Reserve in 1948 and served as an enlisted man in various units attaining the rank of Master Sergeant, was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in September, 1953 and assigned to the 847th CIC Detachment. In June 1956, he was assigned to the 488th Strategic Intelligence Detachment until 1962, achieving the rank of Captain. This latter assignment was primarily concerned with providing intelligence on Russian and other countries' status in exploration and production of oil and natural gas for use with other intelligence units in preparing and updating National Intelligence Summaries. - See more at: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/houstonchronicle/obituary.aspx?pid=160976735#sthash.mX3LJS6E.dpuf
Greg,

You may be interested in this web page:
http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13248091-lt-col-jack-crichton?page=last
Scroll about 4/5 down the page and read about General Wainwright's re-organization of the Texas Reserve units in 1947. The 487th and 488th are mentioned.
I'm sorry, the web site has expired and I can't cut and paste.

I've read on several sites that the original 488th Strategic Intelligence Detachment morphed into the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment and started concentrating on subversives.

Steve Thomas
Steve, that's my old site. They wanted a King's Ransom to renew, so like the lost tribe of Israel, we wandered back here.

I wouldn't doubt for a minute that the change in name reflected a change in direction/purpose. It could well be the reason why Jack E Earnest got out in 1962 - he was a specialist in oil and gas.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
avatar
Steve_Thomas
Posts : 142
Join date : 2016-10-12

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Tue 10 Jan 2017, 6:25 am
greg parker wrote:Steve,

your skepticism about the reality of this detachment got me wondering... and searching. The web is full of references to it - but all are JFK related and not necessarily based on anything solid.

Then I finally found something that indicates it was a real outfit.
Greg,

If you haven't done so already, this is a must read:

Reforming Military Intelligence Reserve Components
1995 - 2005
by Colonel Thomas R. Cagley
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a233391.pdf

Some salient points from his paper, and some of my own observations:


The Military Intelligence Detachments (Strategic) or STRATMIDS only had 9 men in them, but were commanded by a colonel. (the colonel commander was required)
They were intentionally designed to be rank heavy, or top heavy with more upper-level officers than common soldiers – they didn't need “soldier” training.
The MICOM (Military Command in the 2nd CONUS) (southeast United States) was commanded by a Colonel, but six colonel subordinate commanders. (This made the date of your commission crucial when it came to taking orders)



They were under the oversight of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) or the Army Intelligence Agency (AIA) but under the operational control of their parent headquarters. The 488th was under the oversight of the DIA See page 14.



See p. 48 for the ARCOMS (Army Reserve Commands) in each CONUSA


The precise development of Military Intelligence Detachments is not known. They existed after WWII, with more formal development in the 1950's.


See p. 55. The Military Intelligence Detachments suffer from “benign neglect”.


See p. 42.   The same thing happened when the Army went from a TOE to TDA in Europe in 1957.
No logistical support. Had no supplies. Had to go the 4th Army.
Army Security Agency, Europe
[url=https://www.usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm?https&&&www.usarmygermany.com/Units/ASA Europe/USAREUR_ASAE.htm]https://www.usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm?https&&&www.usarmygermany.com/Units/ASA%20Europe/USAREUR_ASAE.htm[/url]


The 502nd ASA Group had been a TOE (Table of Organization and Equipment) unit while the 507th USASA Group was a TDA (Table of Distribution and Allowance) unit. The underlying reason for the redesignation was in the ASA having been forced to downsize in 1957 after a DoD decision that year to cut the Army's strength by 50,000 personnel. The ASA found itself unable to sustain the manning of its tactical TOE units. In order retain a support structure in the tactical commands, the TOE units were inactivated and replaced by units which were tailored specifically to the needs of their supported command (i.e. mission tailored). These new mission structured units were TDA (Table of Distribution and Allowance) units. The designations of these TDA units also differed from the TOE units they replaced. TOE units were designated as "ASA" whereas TDA units were titled "USASA." I've read blog posts of soldiers complaining that the new command structure left them with no means of suppy.
(I also read somewhere that the 507th USASA went from reporting their “product” directly to the U.S. (Fort Bragg? Vint Hill Farms?) to reporting to 4th Army Headquarters in Augsburg, I think)


So, was the 488th under the 4th Army "parent headquarters" or the 5th Army?


As far as the Active Army goes:


Col Robert Jones was the Operations Officer of the 112th Military Intelligence Group. He reported through the Group Commander to the Security Division of Fourth Army, Deputy Chief of Staff, Intelligence. pp. 8-9 of his HSCA testimony


The King Alfred Plan and 112th Military Intelligence Group

SAN ANTONIO EXPRESS, Wednesday, March 4, 1970
The 112th Military Intelligence Group is located here (San Antonio) and was the operation which relayed information to the Data Bank for the 112th Army area although it is not part of the 4th Army.


San Antonio Light, October 6, 1972
Lt. Col. Mark A. Miles has been awarded the Legion of Merit upon his retirement at Headquarters, 5th Army. The medal cited Miles' service since April 1970, as deputy commander of the 112th Military Intelligence Group at 5th Army.
[url=http://coldcaseupdate.blogspot.com/search/label/112th MI Group]http://coldcaseupdate.blogspot.com/search/label/112th%20MI%20Group[/url]


This is confusing. In a January 24, 2014 article by Ruth Quinn on the 112th's deactivation on January 29, 1993, she writes, “The 112th began its existence way back in 1946 as the 112th Counter Intelligence Corps detachment in Dallas, Texas and was assigned to the Fourth Army. At the time, the detachment consisted of 16 officers, six warrant officers, and 26 enlisted men. The mission was counterintelligence in the Zone of the Interior (inside the United States) in a region that included New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, and Texas.”
https://www.army.mil/article/118745/112th_MI_Brigade_Inactivated__29_January_1993/


I think that intelligence matters were funneled through the 4th Army.


Tosh Plumlee used to talk about a 4th Army Reserve located at Love Field.


Steve Thomas
greg_parker
greg_parker
Admin
Posts : 8331
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 66
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia
http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Tue 10 Jan 2017, 9:25 am
Thanks Steve. Nice find and looks like something that should be looked at further (if more can be found).

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
avatar
Steve_Thomas
Posts : 142
Join date : 2016-10-12

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 6:14 am
greg parker wrote:Steve,

your skepticism about the reality of this detachment got me wondering... and searching. The web is full of references to it - but all are JFK related and not necessarily based on anything solid.

Then I finally found something that indicates it was a real outfit.

Here's some info:


obit of Jack E. Earnest wrote:See more at: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/houstonchronicle/obituary.aspx?pid=160976735#sthash.mX3LJS6E.dpuf
Greg,

On another forum I asked:
Has anyone ever seen a piece of paper, file, document, budget request, expenditure report, personnel roster, monthly fitness report, requisition for toilet paper with the 488th name on it?

I think I found my answer.


Army Regulation 135-382

Army National Guard and Army Reserve

Reserve Component Military Intelligence Units and Personnel

19 October 1992

 
MID(S) are Military Intelligence Detachment (Strategic)
 
e. Officers selected to command area studies MID(S) must also--
(1) Be an MI Branch qualified colonel or lieutenant colonel.
 
c. The primary mission of a MID(S) during IDT is completion of assigned intelligence projects. MID(S) are exempt from training requirements determined not to be mission essential
 
[list=3]
[*]Due to lack of internal administrative support, necessary reports will, when possible, be prepared by the unit to which the MID(S) is subordinate or attached for administrative support. MID(S) commanders will establish and maintain frequent liaison with the appropriate MUSARC commander and staff to communicate the MID(S) mission and status, and to avoid undue administrative burdens being placed on the unit.
[*]e. MID(S) are exempt from submitting pre-camp records on training schedules and logistic support in connection with AT.
[*]h. MID(S) are exempted from preparing mobilization station training schedules.
[*]a. Because MID(S) are not authorized administrative support personnel or unit equipment, MID(S) will be attached to another unit for administrative and logistical support. No other unit will be attached to a MID(S). The appropriate MUSARC commander will designate the organization to which a MID(S) is attached for administration, mess, maintenance, and supply. Each MID(S) and the organization to which it is attached for administrative and logistical support will negotiate a memorandum of understanding (MOU). The MOU will describe in sufficient detail the support to be provided the MID(S), including technical support. A copy of the attachment orders and the MOU will be forwarded to the USARC commander.
[*]b. MID(S) are not required to maintain a library of Army regulations, supply and maintenance publications, and manuals.
[/list]
 
I still have to find out what ARCOM (Army Reserve Command) the 488th was attached to.
 
Army Reserve Command Military Intelligence Detachment

4th Army CONUS (Continental Unites States)
ARCOM and Number of MID's
83rd ARCOM 3
86TH ARCOM 4
88TH ARCOM 4
123RD ARCOM 8
 
5th Army CONUS
89th ARCOM 2
90th ARCOM 4


Steve Thomas
greg_parker
greg_parker
Admin
Posts : 8331
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 66
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia
http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 11:13 am
Thanks Steve. Good find.

If I understand correctly (and I may not), they acted pretty well autonomously and without the need for any sort of "normal" record keeping?

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
avatar
Steve_Thomas
Posts : 142
Join date : 2016-10-12

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 7:53 pm
greg parker wrote:Thanks Steve. Good find.

If I understand correctly (and I may not), they acted pretty well autonomously and without the need for any sort of "normal" record keeping?
Greg,

Yes, you understand perfectly.

Go read that study I mentioned previously:

Reforming Military Intelligence Reserve Components
1995 - 2005
by Colonel Thomas R. Cagley
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a233391.pdf



read the first paragraph on page 31. These detachments had no staff, no support personnel to do the typing, etc. No mess for chow :-). They wore civilian clothes. The author of this study said they suffered from "benign neglect". Reports were done at the "parent organization" level.

Think about this for a minute. They were comprised of only 9 men, but were commanded by a colonel, who usually commands what, about 2,500 men?

This is a very weird command structure.

Steve Thomas
greg_parker
greg_parker
Admin
Posts : 8331
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 66
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia
http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 8:34 pm
Steve Thomas wrote:
greg parker wrote:Thanks Steve. Good find.

If I understand correctly (and I may not), they acted pretty well autonomously and without the need for any sort of "normal" record keeping?
Greg,

Yes, you understand perfectly.

Go read that study I mentioned previously:

Reforming Military Intelligence Reserve Components
1995 - 2005
by Colonel Thomas R. Cagley
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a233391.pdf



read the first paragraph on page 31. These detachments had no staff, no support personnel to do the typing, etc. No mess for chow :-). They wore civilian clothes. The author of this study said they suffered from "benign neglect". Reports were done at the "parent organization" level.

Think about this for a minute. They were comprised of only 9 men, but were commanded by a colonel, who usually commands what, about 2,500 men?

This is a very weird command structure.

Steve Thomas
Exactly!

that's part of my trepidation in saying how it looks.

Can you imagine what they could get up to and never be accountable for unless caught red-handed?

Spook Nirvana!

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
avatar
Steve_Thomas
Posts : 142
Join date : 2016-10-12

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Sat 14 Jan 2017, 3:11 am
greg parker wrote:
Exactly!

that's part of my trepidation in saying how it looks.

Can you imagine what they could get up to and never be accountable for unless caught red-handed?
Greg,

A lot of mischief if they were so inclined.

With 19 MID(S) in the 4th Army, and 6 in the 5th Army, and given their relative autonomy, I wonder just how well Whitmeyer and Crichton knew each other. I don't know how many men were in a particular ARCOM, but if they were both in Dallas, it seems the likelihood of them knowing each other would be pretty high.

 It's been stated that Crichton "formed his own" Military Intelligence Detachment. I just don't see how that's possible given the military command structure. If Crichton just up and called it that, I wonder if Whitmeyer objected.

Steve Thomas
Ed.Ledoux
Ed.Ledoux
Posts : 3327
Join date : 2012-01-04

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Sat 14 Jan 2017, 6:11 am
I find it odd Jack Earnest would be in this detachment given the fact he was a lowly second lieutenant when he was 'assigned' to the 488th.
He would retire merely a captain.

He was a lawyer, the military always needs lawyers, and had lots of connections. That must have served a purpose the 488th needed.
avatar
Steve_Thomas
Posts : 142
Join date : 2016-10-12

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Sat 14 Jan 2017, 8:22 am
Ed. Ledoux wrote:I find it odd Jack Earnest would be in this detachment given the fact he was a lowly second lieutenant when he was 'assigned' to the 488th.
He would retire merely a captain.

He was a lawyer, the military always needs lawyers, and had lots of connections. That must have served a purpose the 488th needed.
Ed,

https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/ar135-382.htm
Section 5.0
“There are two major groupings of MID(S): units oriented on geographic areas and units whose functional areas are medical/life sciences, scientific, or technical. Requirements for skills in the MID(S) which are not explicitly identified in the MID(S)”
a. The MID(S) program requires soldiers who are professionally qualified in the specific fields of a geographic area, medical/life science, scientific, technical military intelligence, or intelligence analysis.
(b) Have DLPT scores of 2 or better in listening, reading, and speaking a foreign language applicable to a geographic area related to the unit's mission.

From his obituary, “This latter assignment was primarily concerned with providing intelligence on Russian and other countries' status in exploration and production of oil and natural gas for use with other intelligence units in preparing and updating National Intelligence Summaries. His focus in the 488th

Any hint that he spoke or knew Russian?



j. Warrant officers assigned to MID(S) must possess an associates degree or its equivalent in credit hours, preferably in a field related to the unit mission. Assignment preference will be given to warrant officers who are MI MOS qualified.



From his obituary,
“Second Lieutenant in September, 1953 and assigned to the 847th CIC Detachment.”
Having previously been in Counter Intelligence with the 847th, he would have been MI MOS qualified.



Perhaps being from Dallas, his assignment to the 488th was his connection to that geographic area, and that he was MI MOS qualified. Being from Dallas; considering his career, he would have been attuned to its "geographic specific needs" (oil and gas).?
From his obituary, His assignment to the 488" was "primarily concerned with providing intelligence on Russian and other countries' status in exploration and production of oil and natural gas for use with other intelligence units in preparing and updating National Intelligence Summaries".
Along with Crichton, I wonder how much contact he had with the Fort Worth White Russian community of DeMohrenschildt, Bouhe, Clark and others?

Steve Thomas
greg_parker
greg_parker
Admin
Posts : 8331
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 66
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia
http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Sat 14 Jan 2017, 10:07 am
Steve Thomas wrote:
Ed. Ledoux wrote:I find it odd Jack Earnest would be in this detachment given the fact he was a lowly second lieutenant when he was 'assigned' to the 488th.
He would retire merely a captain.

He was a lawyer, the military always needs lawyers, and had lots of connections. That must have served a purpose the 488th needed.
Ed,

https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/ar135-382.htm
Section 5.0
“There are two major groupings of MID(S): units oriented on geographic areas and units whose functional areas are medical/life sciences, scientific, or technical. Requirements for skills in the MID(S) which are not explicitly identified in the MID(S)”
a. The MID(S) program requires soldiers who are professionally qualified in the specific fields of a geographic area, medical/life science, scientific, technical military intelligence, or intelligence analysis.
(b) Have DLPT scores of 2 or better in listening, reading, and speaking a foreign language applicable to a geographic area related to the unit's mission.

From his obituary, “This latter assignment was primarily concerned with providing intelligence on Russian and other countries' status in exploration and production of oil and natural gas for use with other intelligence units in preparing and updating National Intelligence Summaries. His focus in the 488th

Any hint that he spoke or knew Russian?



j. Warrant officers assigned to MID(S) must possess an associates degree or its equivalent in credit hours, preferably in a field related to the unit mission. Assignment preference will be given to warrant officers who are MI MOS qualified.



From his obituary,
“Second Lieutenant in September, 1953 and assigned to the 847th CIC Detachment.”
Having previously been in Counter Intelligence with the 847th, he would have been MI MOS qualified.



Perhaps being from Dallas, his assignment to the 488th was his connection to that geographic area, and that he was MI MOS qualified. Being from Dallas; considering his career, he would have been attuned to its "geographic specific needs" (oil and gas).?
From his obituary, His assignment to the 488" was "primarily concerned with providing intelligence on Russian and other countries' status in exploration and production of oil and natural gas for use with other intelligence units in preparing and updating National Intelligence Summaries".
Along with Crichton, I wonder how much contact he had with the Fort Worth White Russian community of DeMohrenschildt, Bouhe, Clark and others?

Steve Thomas
There may just be something in all this, At best, it would be speculative - yet possibly worth speculating on.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
greg_parker
greg_parker
Admin
Posts : 8331
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 66
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia
http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Sat 14 Jan 2017, 10:56 am
On doing a bit of digging into army intelligence functions in general, I came across some interesting tidbits of little use here, but may be applicable elsewhere in this case:

 
The best path is to learn a combat function, to get command experience, to apply to an intelligence school. The USMC sends deserving combat branch (mostly infantry) officers to the Army's intelligence school at Ft Huachuca Arizon to pick up a few more tricks. The best way to get a 2dary USMC intelligence MOS is to have a degree in Foreign Relations, in Geography, or in certain areas of History, and to know at least one major, strategic foreign language* well. Then first get combat branch command experience. Afterward, apply for intelligence school. 
Who had been to Foreign Relations school?  John Donovan.



*Chinese (putonghua (Mandarin) or yue (Cantonese)), Hindi, Korean, Persian, Russian, Spanish or Arabic.


Arabic is actually a family of five related languages, plus Modern Standard Arabic (MSA). The five related languages are mutually unintelligible, so their speakers speak to one another in MSA, if they know it.



The above languages will get you assigned to embassy duty, where you can hope to overhear good information. But French, German, Greek, Italian, and Turkish will also do that and almost surely bring you to your commanding general's attention.
Bear in mind, this is talking about current military.

If there is still a big interest in Russian speakers, imagine what the interest would during the Cold War? I know this is stating what everyone has long suspected - but it does underline the reality - that being that LHO learning/knowing Russian even if not directed by the USMC, would have got him noticed by some big brass.  


https://www.quora.com/What-is-it-like-to-be-a-military-intelligence-officer

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
Ed.Ledoux
Ed.Ledoux
Posts : 3327
Join date : 2012-01-04

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Sat 14 Jan 2017, 11:15 am
Thanks Steve,

Earnest also lived in Colorado, I found his daughters info.
And his securing pipeline corridor for TAPs could also put him in AK but that would be 70's
Much of Russia and Alaska would be explored for oil/gas. Sahkalin and other fields were being found.
Mainly by US firms.
Oil is top secret.
All the big oil company offices have anti bugging measures.
Windows have music piped onto them so spies cant use lasers to listen off the glass. Fiber optics everywhere like bugs eyes. High security technology everywhere.
So very compartmentalized and privately held info by them would be tough to get. But as a lawyer he may have been able to piece it all together.
Wouldnt need to know a lick of russian either.
Ed.Ledoux
Ed.Ledoux
Posts : 3327
Join date : 2012-01-04

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Sat 14 Jan 2017, 11:31 am
If Earnest did have a language skill it could be reason why the 2nd Louie got such assignment.
Otherwise it would be his legal work in oil/gas.
avatar
Steve_Thomas
Posts : 142
Join date : 2016-10-12

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Sat 14 Jan 2017, 9:29 pm
Steve Thomas wrote:
With 19 MID(S) in the 4th Army, and 6 in the 5th Army, and given their relative autonomy, I wonder just how well Whitmeyer and Crichton knew each other.
Steve Thomas
I just went back and re-read Cagley's study on Reforming Military Intelligence Reserve Components.


In there, he said that unit missions (the MID(S)) were assigned by the DIA and were "strategic" in nature. i.e. "worldwide" in scope. The problem was that the parent organization was not "read into" the MID(S) mission because it was "classified". There was a real lack of communication. See the bottom of page 1 and the top of page 2.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a233391.pdf

Steve Thomas
Ed.Ledoux
Ed.Ledoux
Posts : 3327
Join date : 2012-01-04

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Sun 15 Jan 2017, 3:25 am
Nice finds Steve and Greg!

http://www.smu.edu/CAPE/ProfessionalDevelopment/CertificatePrograms/Intelligence
avatar
Steve_Thomas
Posts : 142
Join date : 2016-10-12

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Sun 15 Jan 2017, 8:41 pm
greg parker wrote:Steve,

your skepticism about the reality of this detachment got me wondering... and searching. The web is full of references to it - but all are JFK related and not necessarily based on anything solid.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a233391.pdf


'They were under the oversight of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) or the Army Intelligence Agency (AIA) but under the operational control of their parent headquarters." The 488th was under the oversight of the DIA See page 14.



I was reading about the history of the DIA and it said that the DIA was established in 1961. “Urban legend” has it that Crichton created the 488th in 1956, so at that time, the 488th wouldn't have been under the oversight of the DIA.


One possible suggestion for looking for evidence of the 488th might be here in the National Archives:


Records of the Army Staff
(Record Group 319)
https://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/319.html#319.16


319.16 Records of the Office of Reserve Components
1956-63

History: Office of the Assistant Chief of Staff for Reserve Components established, effective November 1, 1956, by General Order 45, Department of the Army, October 16, 1956, acquiring Office of the Special Assistant to the Chief of Staff for Reserve Components from immediate OCS (see 319.2); Reserve Components Division from Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Military Operations (see 319.13); and Reserve Components Division from Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Personnel (see 319.11). Responsible for developing policies, plans, and programs affecting Army National Guard and Army Reserve. Acquired supervision of Office of the Chief, Army Reserve and ROTC Affairs (see 319.18), by Change 14 to Special Regulation 10-5-1 (April 11, 1950), October 16, 1956.
Redesignated Office of Reserve Components by General Order 30, Department of the Army, June 1, 1962. Acquired supervision of Army Reserve Component activities of National Guard Bureau, by Army Regulation 10-5, Department of the Army, January 2, 1963. Raised to deputy chief of staff level by Change 1 to Army Regulation 10-5, February 13, 1963. Abolished, effective May 20, 1974, by General Order 10, Department of the Army, May 8, 1974, with functions dispersed.
Textual Records: Security-classified subject correspondence, 1956-62. General correspondence of the Legislation and Requirements Branch, 1961-63; and the Personnel Management Branch, 1963.

Steve Thomas
avatar
Steve_Thomas
Posts : 142
Join date : 2016-10-12

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Sun 15 Jan 2017, 9:00 pm
Steve Thomas wrote:

One possible suggestion for looking for evidence of the 488th might be here in the National Archives:


Records of the Army Staff
(Record Group 319)
https://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/319.html#319.16


319.16 Records of the Office of Reserve Components
1956-63
Another place might be here:

319.18 Records of the Office of the Chief, Army Reserve
1922-64


https://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/319.html#319.12



History: Reserve Section established in Military Intelligence Division (MID) of WDGS by Memorandum 42, MID, June 12, 1923, with responsibility for disseminating information on Organized Reserve activities, and for serving as War Department contact with the Organized Reserve. Transferred to Office of the Assistant Secretary of War and redesignated Office of the Executive for Reserve Affairs (OERA) pursuant to paragraph 24 of Special Order 53, War Department, March 5, 1927, appointing Col. David L. Stone as executive for reserve affairs. Functions defined in letter of the Secretary of War to ERA (AG 008 ORC, 3-8-27, Misc.), March 11, 1927, as providing reserve officers and their associations with a War Department contact, and acting as liaison between them and Secretary of War.
OERA transferred to OCS by memorandum of the Secretary of War to the Chief of Staff (AG 008 ORC, 11-1-30, Misc. M-F), November 4, 1930. Acquired liaison functions with Reserve Officers' Training Corps (ROTC) by letter of the Secretary of War to ERA (AG 008 ORC, 8-19-40, M-F), August 19, 1940. Redesignated Office of the Executive for Reserve and Reserve Officers' Training Corps Affairs by letter of the Secretary of War to ERA (AG 008 ORC, 6- 11-41, MR-M-F), June 16, 1941. Transferred to the Adjutant General's Office, and with it to newly established SOS, effective March 9, 1942, by Circular 59, War Department, March 2, 1942.
Removed from the Adjutant General's Office and made a separate service under the Chief of Administrative Services, SOS, by General Order 16, SOS, June 27, 1942. Transferred from ASF (formerly SOS) to the Chief of Staff, and made a WDSS organization, by General Order 39, War Department, May 17, 1945. Redesignated Office of the Chief, Army Reserve and ROTC Affairs, December 7, 1954, as confirmed by Change 9 to Special Regulation 10-5-1 (April 11, 1950), March 1, 1955. Made responsible to newly established Office of the Assistant Chief of Reserve Components (see 319.16), by Change 14 to Special Regulation 10-5-1, October 16, 1956. Redesignated Office of the Chief, Army Reserve, by General Order 7, Department of the Army, February 13, 1963, with Special Staff status affirmed by Army Regulation 10-5, Department of the Army, April 1, 1975, following abolishment of Office of Reserve Components, effective May 20, 1974.
Textual Records: Security-classified, formerly security- classified, and unclassified decimal correspondence, 1922-54, 1956-60. Security-classified and unclassified general correspondence (subject-numeric arrangement), 1955-56. Security- classified general correspondence ("TAFFS" arrangement), 1961-64.

Steve Thomas
avatar
Steve_Thomas
Posts : 142
Join date : 2016-10-12

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:43 am
I thought you might be interested in Crichton's Legion of Merit Award Page. It adds a little more structure to his career I think.
See p. 87

https://books.google.com/books?id=ibtADE8gMeoC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=%22Legion+of+Merit%22+Crichton&source=bl&ots=UsV17DJRk7&sig=sw-DLTVYZL9P6SKEfsWpeLEhvEg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJruvqzcvRAhXKw1QKHbOTD2IQ6AEINzAF#v=onepage&q=%22Legion%20of%20Merit%22%20Crichton&f=true

During WWII he was a Group Intelligence Officer in the 487th Bomb Group. They were based in England and bombed northern France in preparation for Normandy.


http://www.americanairmuseum.com/person/102232

Steve Thomas
Sponsored content

The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T) Empty Re: The 488 Military Intelligence Detachment (for Steve T)

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum