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Officer E

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what if...

Post by greg parker on Thu 03 Aug 2017, 9:59 am

The 1961 directory shows the TSBD in the Dal-Tex building...

What if... what if that was the building Baker went to. I have suggested before that this may have been the case, but then dumped it. But Baker may have believed that the TSBD was still inside the Dal-Tex where we know there were "issues" on the 3rd floor.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin


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Re: Officer E

Post by Stan Dane on Thu 03 Aug 2017, 1:10 pm

I'm not saying this idea originated with him, but a certain twice-banned former member has long postulated that Baker never entered the TSBD immediately, but ran in the direction of the Dal-Tex building. This is based on the fact that as Baker runs toward the entrance, Darnell pans away, so we never see him actually climbing the steps. One must infer it.

Because it is such a point of doctrine, my personal heresy is Baker didn't enter the TSBD as fast as he/they said he did.  All those time trials—in addition to showing how Oswald could have theoretically made it down to the second floor in their desired timeframe—also show Baker entering the TSBD in those desired timeframes they were in the process of developing. Run a bunch of scenarios, keep doing it until they conform to the desired outcome, and then type them up and say "See, see!" If the second floor lunchroom was a fiction, why can't Baker entering the TSBD right away be a fiction as well? It certainly can be.

Baker's delayed entrance makes even more sense. It gives Oswald more time to stand in his Prayer Man spot, then after the motorcade passes by and the shit hits the fan, Oswald moves back into the building with the others where he then encounters Baker, now entering the building later than was originally put forth (possibly after running to the Dal-Tex building, at least momentarily). This is where Ochus Campbell says he encountered Oswald, just inside by the entrance. This is where Oswald told Harry Holmes he was.

I don't believe anything the Warren Commission said. I believe the most reliable reports, accounts, testimony and what my eyes tell me. And my eyes tell me Prayer Man was standing on the steps, Prayer Man resembles Oswald, and I never actually saw Baker enter the building.

Can I prove my heresy? No. But then, neither can the Warren Commission prove any of the shit they put in their report.
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Re: Officer E

Post by greg parker on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:48 am

Stan Dane wrote:I'm not saying this idea originated with him, but a certain twice-banned former member has long postulated that Baker never entered the TSBD immediately, but ran in the direction of the Dal-Tex building. This is based on the fact that as Baker runs toward the entrance, Darnell pans away, so we never see him actually climbing the steps. One must infer it.

Because it is such a point of doctrine, my personal heresy is Baker didn't enter the TSBD as fast as he/they said he did.  All those time trials—in addition to showing how Oswald could have theoretically made it down to the second floor in their desired timeframe—also show Baker entering the TSBD in those desired timeframes they were in the process of developing. Run a bunch of scenarios, keep doing it until they conform to the desired outcome, and then type them up and say "See, see!" If the second floor lunchroom was a fiction, why can't Baker entering the TSBD right away be a fiction as well? It certainly can be.

Baker's delayed entrance makes even more sense. It gives Oswald more time to stand in his Prayer Man spot, then after the motorcade passes by and the shit hits the fan, Oswald moves back into the building with the others where he then encounters Baker, now entering the building later than was originally put forth (possibly after running to the Dal-Tex building, at least momentarily). This is where Ochus Campbell says he encountered Oswald, just inside by the entrance. This is where Oswald told Harry Holmes he was.

I don't believe anything the Warren Commission said. I believe the most reliable reports, accounts, testimony and what my eyes tell me. And my eyes tell me Prayer Man was standing on the steps, Prayer Man resembles Oswald, and I never actually saw Baker enter the building.

Can I prove my heresy? No. But then, neither can the Warren Commission prove any of the shit they put in their report.
I'm pretty sure we can credit Bob for the idea that Baker never entered. At least one other helped develop it after that.

Prior to working up that theory, Bob had postulated that the cop seen in the film is not Baker at all. 

There is possible support from that in Savage's "First Day Evidence". Savage interviewed several officers but designated lthem letters to keep their anonymity.

Here is Officer E:


It had been a long escort. We had a lot of people all the way. There were no problems, just a heavy crowd and a lot of yelling and cheering, and the motors were getting hot. When you follow the lead, you do a lot of starting and stopping, trying to hold an interval. I was glad it was almost over.

The crowd was real heavy down on the end of the downtown area, but just past Dealey Plaza it would open up and we would be on the freeway and just a few minutes from the Trade Mart. The front of the motorcade started blocking up in the crowd in those last turns coming off Main and turning onto Elm. Back on Houston, where we were, we were just about stopped and moving real slow when we could move.

A little past half way down Houston (between Main and Elm), I heard the first shot. I could tell it came from somewhere in front of me, and high. As I looked up I noticed all the pigeons flushed off the top of the building on the corner ahead of me. And in the same period I heard the second shot, and then the third one. I couldn't see just where the shots came from but I knew they were from a high-powered rifle. I hunt a lot, and had just got back from hunting. There was no mistaking that; there were three shots, that's for sure. Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do.

The investigator from Washington contacted me for my recollection of what happened, but I guess they weren't interested in what I said.

If this was Baker as assumed, why would he say that there was no interest in his story? There quite obviously was huge interest in it 

We also note that he said "it took a while" to get inside the building. I don't care how you definite it. Any definition is going to be too long for the official version.

Once inside, he encounters Oswald, who Truly vouches for, and then he goes upstairs. 

Bonnie Ray saw the helmeted head of a cop get off an elevator on the 5th floor, but saw or heard no one else. 

Is it possible that this unknown cop went up alone? A careful reading of the above statement does not rule it out. He simply says he was shown the way up - which may be interpreted differently to being led up. He also reverts to singular when talking about what was found upstairs.

Baker meanwhile has gone to the Dal-Tex thinking it is still the building where the TSBD is. There is a hubbub happening over someone having been on the 3rd or 4th floor who didn't belong there/ Baker is also met by a building supervisor who does take him up. On that floor, Baker encounters the person he describes in his affidavit. That person is vouched for and off he goes...

I will end by saying that I'm not totally convinced of this scenario, mainly because both officer E and Baker claimed to have recently been deer hunting. But then I go back to the claim by Officer E that no one in Washington was interested in his story - while Baker could not make that claim since he was flown to Washington to give his evidence.

The story about a porter escorting Oswald to the 6th floor and witnessing the assassination before fleeing in panic seems to be an amalgamation of events and people in both buildings in that Braden and Florer were both escorted up to the 3rd floor, and in the case of Braden, the porter did panic and run out to find a cop.


Last edited by greg parker on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 11:50 am; edited 2 times in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
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Re: Officer E

Post by Stan Dane on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 10:29 am

greg parker wrote:I will end by saying that I'm not totally convinced of this scenario, mainly because both officer E and Baker claimed to have recently been deer hunting. 

The fact that Baker and Officer E both claimed to have been deer hunting doesn't stand out to me as being unusual. 1963 Texas culture was wild west, guns, and hunters. During deer hunting season, it wouldn't be unusual for a large number of people to be off hunting. 

I grew up in rural Michigan and everybody and their uncle seemed to be out hunting during deer season. Hell, my brother-in-law in Michigan even coerced took his school teacher daughter out deer hunting with him a few years ago (she even bagged a nice buck).
 
I wouldn't discount the theory too much based upon the fact that both Baker and Officer E both said they went deer hunting. In fact, the more I think about, the more I like it.
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Re: Officer E

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 5:40 pm

I'm pretty sure we can credit Bob for the idea that Baker never entered.

What is it they say about broken clocks?
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Re: Officer E

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 5:44 pm

Stan Dane wrote:
greg parker wrote:I will end by saying that I'm not totally convinced of this scenario, mainly because both officer E and Baker claimed to have recently been deer hunting. 

The fact that Baker and Officer E both claimed to have been deer hunting doesn't stand out to me as being unusual. 1963 Texas culture was wild west, guns, and hunters. During deer hunting season, it wouldn't be unusual for a large number of people to be off hunting. 

I grew up in rural Michigan and everybody and their uncle seemed to be out hunting during deer season. Hell, my brother-in-law in Michigan even coerced took his school teacher daughter out deer hunting with him a few years ago (she even bagged a nice buck).
 
I wouldn't discount the theory too much based upon the fact that both Baker and Officer E both said they went deer hunting. In fact, the more I think about, the more I like it.

I live in a town in NZ that still does the hunting thing like its 1963.
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Re: Officer E

Post by The Prodigal Son on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:24 pm

I agree that BB was the main champion of the Baker not entering idea.  Truth be told I always like some of BB's arguments and challenges.  I just hated aspects of his personality that got in the way of collaborating with him properly.  If he'd have toned down the bullshit he would have been a great mind to work through things with.

I will also point out that Baker not entering the TSBD can be underpinned by the notion that the accosting of a person in a building's upper floors may have been moved from the Dal-Tex to the TSBD.  I've long been fascinated by the Larry Florer story and suspected it was a piece of the jigsaw puzzle.
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Re: Officer E

Post by greg parker on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 11:29 pm

The Prodigal Son wrote:I agree that BB was the main champion of the Baker not entering idea.  Truth be told I always like some of BB's arguments and challenges.  I just hated aspects of his personality that got in the way of collaborating with him properly.  If he'd have toned down the bullshit he would have been a great mind to work through things with.

I will also point out that Baker not entering the TSBD can be underpinned by the notion that the accosting of a person in a building's upper floors may have been moved from the Dal-Tex to the TSBD.  I've long been fascinated by the Larry Florer story and suspected it was a piece of the jigsaw puzzle.
Lee, I guess that is what underpins this line of thinking... there is something fishy about events in the two buildings and the stories that came out of them and there are indications of mixing and matching going on between buildings, players and events. 

Would have helped if Savage had eventually spilled on who the cops were he interviewed.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin


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Re: Officer E

Post by Stan Dane on Sat 05 Aug 2017, 1:53 am

Other than responses to questions, is anything recorded, written down, on how Marrion Baker actually speaks/writes? How he expresses himself in his own words?
 
People generally have a writing style/voice, a way of communicating that is unique to them. If the five paragraphs by Officer E above are part of an actual quote by him, it tells us something about his own style, his choice of words, syntax, etc., that some claim to be as unique as a signature. That's how some experts can determine (or highly suspect) if someone is plagiarizing someone else's work. The styles don't fit. One guy I read about said he was actually able to recognize the identity of a writer with only verbal conversation to go on, so it's not limited to writing. Experienced people with an extensive vocabulary tend to be better at identifying unique voices because of little quirks and idiosyncrasies that set people apart.
 
If we have anything written down by Marrion Baker (the more the better), we—or someone skilled—might be able to compare that to what is written down by Officer E, and then be able to make a qualitative determination how closely they match, or don't match. Because if Officer E is not Baker, whoa.
 
It's not much to go on, but after 50 plus years, I guess we are reduced to doing shit like this.
 
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Warren Commission!!! Even if we take the superhuman leap of faith that your report is on the up and up, all is well!, we promise not to ask unpleasant questions, you can be completely trusted, we dutifully put on the blinders, we believe your "come walk on the water with us" entreaties, yada yada yada...AT A MINIMUM, the appearance of impropriety looms like a Mack truck coming directly at you at warp 6 and stinks to high heavens. Thank you for 220,000 worthless words on what Ruth Paine had in her garage and how tightly the fucking strings were tied on swaddling cloth that that was seen in various locations on the floor while ignoring anything that might answer the central question of who killed the president.
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Re: Officer E

Post by greg parker on Sat 05 Aug 2017, 7:38 am

Stan Dane wrote:Other than responses to questions, is anything recorded, written down, on how Marrion Baker actually speaks/writes? How he expresses himself in his own words?
 
People generally have a writing style/voice, a way of communicating that is unique to them. If the five paragraphs by Officer E above are part of an actual quote by him, it tells us something about his own style, his choice of words, syntax, etc., that some claim to be as unique as a signature. That's how some experts can determine (or highly suspect) if someone is plagiarizing someone else's work. The styles don't fit. One guy I read about said he was actually able to recognize the identity of a writer with only verbal conversation to go on, so it's not limited to writing. Experienced people with an extensive vocabulary tend to be better at identifying unique voices because of little quirks and idiosyncrasies that set people apart.
 
If we have anything written down by Marrion Baker (the more the better), we—or someone skilled—might be able to compare that to what is written down by Officer E, and then be able to make a qualitative determination how closely they match, or don't match. Because if Officer E is not Baker, whoa.
 
It's not much to go on, but after 50 plus years, I guess we are reduced to doing shit like this.
 
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Warren Commission!!! Even if we take the superhuman leap of faith that your report is on the up and up, all is well!, we promise not to ask unpleasant questions, you can be completely trusted, we dutifully put on the blinders, we believe your "come walk on the water with us" entreaties, yada yada yada...AT A MINIMUM, the appearance of impropriety looms like a Mack truck coming directly at you at warp 6 and stinks to high heavens. Thank you for 220,000 worthless words on what Ruth Paine had in her garage and how tightly the fucking strings were tied on swaddling cloth that that was seen in various locations on the floor while ignoring anything that might answer the central question of who killed the president.
Not sure if this helps.


I'd like to see footage of Baker running for comparison with what we see on the film. A very distinctive style.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin


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Re: Officer E

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 06 Aug 2017, 3:18 am

I made a transcript of Baker's spoken words in the video above. I had to play some parts over and over and even so, I may not have heard a word or two correctly, but I think I'm very close:

Marrion Baker Interview wrote:
I heard those shots come off. And uh, they seemed like they's high, and they were directly ahead of me. And uh, as I tried to figure out which, where they came from, and the building that I had in mind was directly ahead of me, and that was the Texas Book Depository building.  As I entered the building then, I asked, uh, some of the people that was standing around there where, where the stairs and the elevator was. And uh, there was a man spoke up and said uh, he was the building manager and he'd show me.
 
And uh, we couldn't get that service elevator to working, and uh, he said "well we use the stairs." And he turned around and immediately went up the stairs.
 
And I kind, I kind of looked off to the right over there through a doorway and saw a image of a man walking away through that doorway. Uh, when I got to the doorway he was on down there a little bit and I hollered at him, asked him to come back.
 
I turned around asked him if the man worked for him, and if he knew him, and he said yes he works for a me and I, I know him. And uh, at that time, uh, the man never did say anything and I never said anything further to him. Uh, I turned around and went on up the stairs to the third floor.
 
Yes sir, he did.
 
I believe from the time that I heard those shots and time I ran into that building, entered the lobby, and uh, made it up to the second floor, it was approximately a minute and a half to two minutes. And uh, that would be pretty close to it.
 
Yes sir, it was.

Well, we went back to the same day that we figured what's what I did that particular day and we tried to get to the spot where I thought I first heard the shots. And from there we took it and we did everything, reenacted the whole situation there, the entrance into the building, and uh, the talk we had between the building manager and myself, and then we went on back through the building, and we tried to get the service elevator down, and uh, we then went on up the stairs, and that uh, I'll be somewhere around a minute and a half is our timing on it.

In comparing this with Officer E's statement above, I realize that Baker's comments here are raw and on the fly. If he had said this to Savage, I'm sure Savage would have cleaned it up some for print (i.e. get rid of the "uhs" and some of the obvious grammar errors). 

But having said that, does it sound like Officer E? I need to think about it some more.

The overriding impression I got from the interview is that Baker seemed to be groping his way though all of this. He had to pause and think about what to say at times. I would think he would have, by this time, been able to talk about this in his sleep. I think it should have flowed easily.
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Re: Officer E

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 06 Aug 2017, 11:11 am

I decided to do a test. I took the Officer E text and the Baker transcript I created from the video and labeled then Transcript E and Transcript B respectively. I then sent them to my sons and my wife. I just asked them, in their opinion, do they think the same person created these or were they different people. Or can they tell. I told them nothing else, other than it wasn't a trick question and there are no right or wrong answers. I also asked them to tell me why they felt the way they did, one way or another.
 
It'll probably be awhile before I hear from my sons, but after reading both texts, my wife said "Definitely two different people." I said "Really! Why so sure?" She responded that they just sound different.
 
I then told her that Transcript B was Baker from a video that I transcribed raw, with no corrections. Transcript E was from a writer who interviewed an unknown police officer, and the author may very well have cleaned up some things for publication. My wife though about it and still thought they were from different people, saying even if you clean up some of his grammar, it still sounds different to her.
 
I think it sounds different too. Maybe I'll clean up Baker's text and then see how the two look.

Just an unscientific poll.
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Re: Officer E

Post by greg parker on Sun 06 Aug 2017, 2:14 pm

Stan Dane wrote:I decided to do a test. I took the Officer E text and the Baker transcript I created from the video and labeled then Transcript E and Transcript B respectively. I then sent them to my sons and my wife. I just asked them, in their opinion, do they think the same person created these or were they different people. Or can they tell. I told them nothing else, other than it wasn't a trick question and there are no right or wrong answers. I also asked them to tell me why they felt the way they did, one way or another.
 
It'll probably be awhile before I hear from my sons, but after reading both texts, my wife said "Definitely two different people." I said "Really! Why so sure?" She responded that they just sound different.
 
I then told her that Transcript B was Baker from a video that I transcribed raw, with no corrections. Transcript E was from a writer who interviewed an unknown police officer, and the author may very well have cleaned up some things for publication. My wife though about it and still thought they were from different people, saying even if you clean up some of his grammar, it still sounds different to her.
 
I think it sounds different too. Maybe I'll clean up Baker's text and then see how the two look.

Just an unscientific poll.
I love it!

It is the Dane version of what is referred to here as "the pub test". Th pub test is used by everyone here, including the media and politicians. It's what someone imagines would be the result of a poll taken in your average pub (usually expressed as "that would/wouldn't pass the pub test"). Only difference is, your "test" is real.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin


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Re: Officer E

Post by barto on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 5:58 am

One thing that needs to be taken into consideration is that the CBS interview was coached.  Just like the 4 x 1 hr programs they did 'The Warren Report.'

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Officer E

Post by greg parker on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 9:33 am

Officer E wrote:OFFICER "E"
It had been a long escort. We had a lot of people all the way. There were no problems, just a heavy crowd and a lot of yelling and cheering, and the motors were getting hot. When you follow the lead, you do a lot of starting and stopping, trying to hold an interval. I was glad it was almost over.

The crowd was real heavy down on the end of the downtown area, but just past Dealey Plaza it would open up and we would be on the freeway and just a few minutes from the Trade Mart. The front of the motorcade started blocking up in the crowd in those last turns coming off Main and turning onto Elm. Back on Houston, where we were, we were just about stopped and moving real slow when we could move.

A little past half way down Houston (between Main and Elm), I heard the first shot. I could tell it came from somewhere in front of me, and high. As I looked up I noticed all the pigeons flushed off the top of the building on the corner ahead of me. And in the same period I heard the second shot, and then the third one. I couldn't see just where the shots came from but I knew they were from a high-powered rifle. I hunt a lot, and had just got back from hunting. There was no mistaking that; there were three shots, that's for sure. Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building. It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do.

The investigator from Washington contacted me for my recollection of what happened, but I guess they weren't interested in what I said.
Officer E said that Washington was not interested in him. If we take that statement as a true statement, then Officer E cannot be Baker because Baker was indeed called to Washing to to testify.

I think our friend over at the Foo may have discovered an alternative candidate.


John Wiseman wrote:COUNTY OF DALLAS 
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT 
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT

Name of Compainant 
Assassination Of President Kennedy

Offense 
John Wiseman, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.

Date Nov 23, 1963

I was standing in front of the Sheriff's Office at 505 Main Street, Dallas when the President passed and the car went around the corner and a few more cars had passed when I heard a shot and I knew something had happened. I ran at once to the corner of Houston and Main Street and out into the street when the second and third shots ran out. I ran on across Houston Street, then across the park to where a policeman was having trouble with his motorcycle and I saw a man laying on the grass. This man laying on the grass said the shots came from the building and he was pointing to the old Sexton Building. I talked to Marilyn Sitzman, 202 S. Lancaster who said her boss, Abraham Zapruter, RI 8 6071, had movies of the shooting. She said the shots came from that way and she pointed at the old Sexton Building. I ran at once to the Sexton Building and went in. I asked some woman how many doors lead out of the building and she said 4. I left the building and found some DPD patrolmen and we came back to the building. I ran up the stairs and the patrolman started trying to get more help to search the building. I went up the stairs to the 7th floor and started up into the attic and noticed that the door to the roof was locked on the inside with a gate type hook latch. I stopped and started back down the stairs taking a quick look on each floor. I met more officers on the 2nd floor and then in a few minutes the place had maybe 50 officers in it. A better search was started floor by floor. About the time we got started on the 5th floor, Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney found some spent hulls. An officer of the Dallas Police Department told us all to get on one side of the room and make one clean sweep of the entire floor to see if we could find the rifle. As we worked our way across the room which was filled with boxes, we got to the front stairway when Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boon said, "here is the gun". It was about 4 feet in front of me in the aisle in which I was working. Deputy Boone stayed at one end of the aisle where the gun was spotted and I stayed at the other end of the aisle so that nothing would be touched. Officer Day of the DPD Crime Lab came and took pictures of the gun in its hiding spot behind the boxes and then moved it from this spot. I then left the building and came back to the Sheriff's Office to talk with witnesses. A Mrs. Mary Moorman was in the office with a picture of the President getting shot.

Wiseman's story is very similar to Baker's, except, unlike Baker, Wiseman was not called to Washington. On the other hand, Wiseman was a deputy sheriff not a police officer and he also would not be wearing a white helmet as seen by Williams on the 5th floor.
-----------------------

NEED MORE COFFEE. Sleep

Officer E was clearly a motorcycle cop in the escort.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
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Re: Officer E

Post by Vinny on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 8:13 pm

PRESIDENTIAL MOTORCADE SCHEMATIC LISTING
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
DALLAS, TEXAS



A. ADVANCE MOTORCYCLES
1. DPD Sgt. S.Q. Bellah
(DPD Call #190)
(DPD Equipment # ? )
2. DPD Glen C. (G.C.) McBride
(DPD Call #133)
(DPD Equipment #340)
3. DPD J.B. Garrick
(DPD Call #132)
(DPD Equipment #358)
vehicles: Harley-Davidson two-wheel motorcycles
aka: lead police vehicles (CE 767)
motorcycles (CE 768)
lead motorcycle squad-N&A
relevant photos/film: DCA film, Altgens 1-2,
Bothun 1, Moorman 3.
occupant sources: Lawrence Exhibit 2.
notes: These 3 motorcycle officers ride ahead of the motorcade at Main and Houston to cut off Stemmons Freeway traffic (Lawrence Exhibit 2). Moorman #3 shows McBride and a portion
of Bellah's motorcycle (Mack, and authors interview with Jean Hill, 10/15/92). After the shots, Bellah reports to Dealey Plaza (DPD Recordings). Officer TA Hutson testified that he
thought Garrick was at the entrance of the Depository shortly after the shooting (7H28). McBride's actions are unknown.
3
8-= raboir.27 4.-Lark
B. LEAD MOTORCYCLES
1. DPD Leon E. (L.E.) Grey
(DPD Call #156)
(DPD Equipment #351)
2. DPD E.D."Buddy" Brewer
(DPD Call #137)
(DPD Equipment #348)
3. DPD Harold B. (H.B.) Freeman
(DPD Call #135)
(DPD Equipment #345)
4. DPD W.G. Lumpkin
(DPD Call #152)
(DPD Equipment #343)
, 5. DPD Sgt. Stavis Ellis
(DPD Call #150)
(DPD Equipment # ? )
(NPOA)
vehicles: Harley-Davidson two-wheel motorcycles aka: lead police vehicles (CE 767)
motorcycles (CE 768)
lead motorcycle squad (N&A)


       
Notes: At Main and Houston Brewer and Freeman join the 3 Advance Motorcycles to assist in Stemmons Freeway traffic control,leaving Ellis, Grey and Lumpkin leading the motorcade timio41Dealey Plaza (Lawrence Exhibit 2). None of the three leave the motorcade as is claimed to be seen in the Zapruder film, as all three can be seen beyond the underpass in the Bell film and in the McIntyre photograph. Ellis, Grey, and Lumpkin escort the motorcade to Parkland (author's interviews with Ellis and Lumpkin, Bowles Manuscript). After the shots and traffic control on Stemmons, Brewer reports to Dealey Plaza by driving back the wrong way on Elm Street. Freeman goes on toParkland (Lifton). However, officer TA Hutson testified that he thought Freeman was at the entrance of the Depositoryshortly after the shooting (7H28). Brewer is later inside theTSBD on the 6th floor. Moorman #4, missing, shows Lumpkin and the sixth-floor corner window of the Depository (Mack).




 
C. PRESIDENTIAL MOTORCYCLES

1. DPD William Joseph (Billy Joe, B.J.) Martin

(DPD Call #131)

(DPD Equipment #344)

2. DPD Robert Weldon (Bobby, B.W.) Hargis

(DPD Call #136)

(DPD Equipment #347)

3. DPD James M. (J.M.) Chaney

(DPD Call #151)

(DPD Equipment #337)

4. DPD Douglas L. (D.L.) Jackson

(DPD Call #138)

(DPD Equipment #356)

vehicles: Harley-Davidson two-wheel motorcyclesaka: motorcycles (CE 768)

relevant photos/film: many.

occupant sources: Lawrence Exhibit 2, 6H289-293 Martin, 6H294-296

Hargis, Steve Barber interview of Robert Hargis, Bowles

Manusdript.




Notes: Chaney and Jackson stop for a few seconds in Dealey Plaza after shooting. Chaney then moves ahead and informs Chief Curry that The President has been hit. Jackson follows him

and the two escort the motorcade to Parkland Hospital (WFAA Tapes, Bowles Manuscript). Hargis "parks" his motorcycle in the middle of Elm after the shots and runs over to the north  Elm sidewalk near the fallen Newman family. He returns to his motorcycle and rides under the Triple Underpass to check the other side. He then returns to Dealey Plaza, specifically outside the TSBD (6H295-296). Hargis,dbe-S-not-run--Uprthe grassy knoll as is often claimed. OfficerMartin escos the motorcade to Parkland Hospital (Paschall pc film sequence, Bell film sequence, Daniels film sequence 1,6H291-292, Bowles Manuscript).







D. FORWARD MID MOTORCADE MOTORCYCLES
1. DPD Hollis B. (H.B.) McLain
(DPD Call #155)
(DPD Equipment #352)
2. DPD Marrion L. (M.L.) Baker
(DPD Call 4134)
(DPD Equipment #346)
Lisc. TX # G 1986
vehicles: Harley-Davidson two-wheel motorcycles
provided by DPD
aka:
relevant photos/film: Couch film, DCA film, Cancellare 1,
Bond 4, Towner 3, Hughes film.
occupant sources: Lawrence Exhibit 2
notes: Baker and McLain are on Houston Street during the assassination (Bowles manuscript). Baker parks his motorcycle and enters Texas School Book Depository following the shots (3H249). Baker is later at Parkland Hospital(3H268). McLain escorts the motorcade to Parkland. Baker mistakenly_identifies McLain as L.W. Williams in his Warren Commission testimony (3H268).




E. MID MOTORCADE MOTORCYCLES
1. DPD J.W. Courson
(DPD Call #153)
(DPD Equipment #355)
2. DPD Clyde A. Haygood
(DPD Call #142)
(DPD Equipment #357)
vehicles: Harley-Davidson two-wheel motorcycles
provided by DPD
aka:
relevant photos/film: Bond 4, Wiegman film,Bothun 4, Willis 6, Cancellare 1,Bond 5, Bond 6, Towner 2 & 3, Cabluck 3,Cancellare 3, Atkins film.
occupant sources: Lawrence Exhibit 2, 6H299-302 Haygood, author's
interviews of Courson and Haygood.
notes: Courson escorts the motorcade to Parkland (author's interview of Courson, Bowles manuscript). Haygood parks his motorcycle at North Elm curb and runs up the grassy knoll to
the Overpass and into railroad yards. Minutes later he returns to his bike, encounters James Tague and Charles Brehm, and reports to the rear of the TSBD. He is later inside the TSBD on the 6th floor (6H306).
F. REAR MID MOTORCADE MOTORCYCLES
1. DPD Sgt. R. Smart
(DPD Call #170)
(DPD Equipment # ? )
2. DPD Robert Joeseph (Bobby Joe) Dale
(DPD Call #161)
(DPD Equipment #350)
vehicles: Harley-Davidson two-wheel motorcycles
provided by DPD
aka:
relevant photos/film: Paschall film, Bond 7.
occupant sources: Lawrence Exhibit 2
notes: Positions varied more than other motorcycles (photo analysis). Dale escorts the motorcade to Parkland (author's interview with W.G. Lumpkin). Smart's actions are unknown.

Vinny

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Re: Officer E

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Tue 15 Aug 2017, 11:04 am

Thx Vinny,
No worries Greg, Officer "E" is/was Baker, call #134
I went through JC Bowles comments, conclusions etc. completely and no other Motor Officer is compatible.
No one else sees a pigeon or flocks flying, and is the deer hunter. Rest ride on to Parkland.
The only part that doesn't fit is the "wasn't used or impeached"
When was Bowles asking and would it be before WC testimony? Nah... last bit seems to be added to several of the motorcyclists.
Marrion L. Baker did go to Washington DC and would be used.
But never "impeached" per se.

Cheers, Ed


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