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Brian says...Sat 30 Dec 2023, 4:33 pmEd.Ledoux
last drinks before the bar closesSat 30 Dec 2023, 2:46 pmTony Krome
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Busted again: Tex ItaliaSat 30 Dec 2023, 9:22 amEd.Ledoux
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Was Oswald ever confronted with the physical rifle?Sat 30 Dec 2023, 12:03 amCastroSimp
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Tue 15 May 2018, 11:34 am
First topic message reminder :

Ed Ledoux wrote:




When police were called to the Texas Theater the description was of a man sneaking into the theater with a shotgun.
This was broadcast by the Dallas Police Department dispatcher. 
Why else would police descend upon the TT in such force? Dozens of armed cops for a kid sneaking into the balcony? 
So,,,Whom gave Julia Postal this description? Since she claims not to have actually seen the individual whom Brewer asked her about.
Brewer claims he is responsible for that description since he followed the person from down the street. Wouldn't Julia tell police this?
Surely she did not tell them she saw the person, so she had to rely on Brewer for this. Yet where did a shotgun get introduced if not by Postal. 

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Thu 30 Dec 2021, 7:01 pm
It was one of the seats. I remember them well.from that era. They sprang up when you stood up and tgey made a click when they did it.

And one of the witnesses named the noise as being made by a seat.

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Sat 01 Jan 2022, 10:13 am
That's a good estimation.
Better than a Khoisan movie goer.
Must have been more than one seat then or the same seat several times to fit Hot Clutch Hutson's account.
If the seat may click only when raising it seems at odds with stories of the struggle going down into the seat(s?)
It would appear difficult or impossible for a person to cause several seats to depress even in a struggle.
The arm rests seem to prevent multiple seats to be affected.
Unless the seat fronts become caught and dragged down by body or limbs heading to floor.
There is report of such a altercations action... whilst others say Lee fell back in a seat.
Perhaps jumping over the seats to get to Oswald causes several seats to snap.
Definitely is not any Pistol in evidence.
Cheers
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Sat 01 Jan 2022, 11:44 am
Ed.Ledoux wrote:That's a good estimation.
Better than a Khoisan movie goer.
Must have been more than one seat then or the same seat several times to fit Hot Clutch Hutson's account.
If the seat may click only when raising it seems at odds with stories of the struggle going down into the seat(s?)
It would appear difficult or impossible for a person to cause several seats to depress even in a struggle.
The arm rests seem to prevent multiple seats to be affected.
Unless the seat fronts become caught and dragged down by body or limbs heading to floor.
There is report of such a altercations action... whilst others say Lee fell back in a seat.
Perhaps jumping over the seats to get to Oswald causes several seats to snap.
Definitely is not any Pistol in evidence.
Cheers
These were those types of seats according to Brewer

Mr. BREWER - When we first went down to the exit by the stage, we heard a seat pop up, but couldn't see anybody.

And he has McDonald falling onto the seats and getting straight back up.

Mr. BREWER - Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat.
Mr. BELIN - Who knocked who?
Mr. BREWER - He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the seats. And then real quick he was back up.

It has to be said though, that Gibson recalled an entu=irely different scene:

Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; not directly; I saw them take him to the floor.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald strike any officer?
Mr. GIBSON. [Shaking head for negative answer.]
Mr. BALL. You did not?
Mr. GIBSON. Not that I saw.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody say anything?
Mr. GIBSON. Well, I heard the officers, but I don't remember what they said--I couldn't tell you if my life depended on it.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything?
Mr. GIBSON. No.
Mr. BALL. You mentioned the fact that they took him to the floor, you mean they actually went down in the floor of the theatre or close to it?
Mr. GIBSON. Well, from where I was standing and looking across--they took him to the floor.
Mr. BALL. Were there any seats in the way when they fell?
Mr. GIBSON. No; I was standing up--yes; there was seats in the way, but I was looking at an angle.
Mr. BALL. Did Oswald fall on the seats or on the floor?
Mr. GIBSON. They fell on the floor as best I could tell.

Oswald no punchee - no one fall on seats. 

Officer Hawkins said Oswald and McDonald BOTH fell into the seats

Mr. HAWKINS. I remember seeing him standing beside Oswald, and when I arrived where they were, both of them were down in the seat--Oswald and McDonald had both fallen down into the seat

And it was Hawkins who suggested the click may have been a seat.

Mr. HAWKINS. I heard something that I thought was a snap. I didn't know whether it was a snap of a pistol--I later learned that they were sure it was.
I didn't know whether it was a snap of the gun or whether it was in the seats someone making the noise.

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Thu 20 Jan 2022, 7:32 pm
So definitely not Bernice or Bo Click?
Didn't see that coming!
Did ya?

I just have a problem with the multiple conflicts in describing the fight.
If Lee is in a seat with Macdonald's Big Mac on him that seat ain't clicking.
And if on floor how da fuk is a gun seen pointing out...it'd need to be pointed at the ceiling if in any way attached to a person on floor between rows of seats.
Hawkins said SEATS plural and may back up Hot Clutch Hutson.

Cheers,
Ed
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Sun 20 Mar 2022, 6:34 am
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20%20Files/Warren%20Commission-Subject/Capture/Capture.pdf

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Sun 20 Mar 2022, 7:29 am
barto wrote:http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20%20Files/Warren%20Commission-Subject/Capture/Capture.pdf

“ We may assume in fairness that the FBI swore every witness to silence pending his appearance before the commission; it is a sound rule that the more a witness relates his experiences to reporters, the less useful he is to courts of inquiry. The New Republic, Murray Kempton”

The Warren Commission was not established until November 29, 1963 - a week after the arrest. Oswald was arrested for suspicion of the Tippit murder, which would have been under the jurisdiction of Dallas prosectors as far as was known at that time. There would have been no need for the FBI to swear theater witnesses to silence.

I suppose the FBI could have sworn such witnesses to silence once the Warren Commission was going to take testimony. They could have consulted the list of theater witnesses or the day of arrest eyewitness statements and contacted them, explaining the importance of maintaining the integrity of witness testimony and swear them to silence, forget to call them to testify and then forget to release them from their oath of silence once the Commission published its findings.

Yeah, right.
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Sun 20 Mar 2022, 1:53 pm
Mr. GIBSON. No, sir; not directly; I saw them take him to the floor.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald strike any officer?
Mr. GIBSON. [Shaking head for negative answer.]
Mr. BALL. You did not?
Mr. GIBSON. Not that I saw.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody say anything?
Mr. GIBSON. Well, I heard the officers, but I don't remember what they said--I couldn't tell you if my life depended on it.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything?
Mr. GIBSON. No.
Mr. BALL. You mentioned the fact that they took him to the floor, you mean they actually went down in the floor of the theatre or close to it?
Mr. GIBSON. Well, from where I was standing and looking across--they took him to the floor.
Mr. BALL. Were there any seats in the way when they fell?
Mr. GIBSON. No; I was standing up--yes; there was seats in the way, but I was looking at an angle.
Mr. BALL. Did Oswald fall on the seats or on the floor?
Mr. GIBSON. They fell on the floor as best I could tell.



Notice no talk of officers screaming "he's got a gun" none of the eye witnesses as far as I know heard those words from the Dallas cops. Strange that. I stand to be corrected though if that's not so.

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Sun 20 Mar 2022, 3:03 pm
Nice Mick!!

If they can hear the snap of a firing pin it must have been a real quiet arrest.

Of course Hill said something no other person there confirmed not even fellow officers nor Nick
Sgt. Gerald Hill

Mr. HILL. . . . I saw some officers struggling with a white male.

Quote:
I reached out and grabbed the left arm of the suspect, and just before I got to him I heard somebody yell, "Look out, he's got a gun."



In fact here is Nicks recollection:
McDONALD. Yes, sir. Now, as we fell into the seats, I called out, "I have got him," 

Then CT
WALKER. Well, I assume it was a click of a revolver on the shell, and that is when the gun was doing the most moving around. It was moving around in the general area, and they were still fighting. And some one said, "Let go of the gun," and Oswald said, "I can't."

Of course the cops friend Johnny on the spot says;
BREWER. And somebody hollered "He's got a gun."

Who that was yelling out anything about a gun is not discerned and left as rumor.

Hawkins:
... best I can remember, Sergeant Hill, who had gotten there, said, "I've got the gun," 

Let's face it only gun Nick grabbed was Lee's love gun.

WALKER. "McDonald's right hand as he was searching, and he felt of his pocket, and Oswald then hit him,"

I believe Nick knew how to elicit a reaction. 
Lee knocks Nick's cap off and the rest is his-story.
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Mon 21 Mar 2022, 1:36 am
lanceman wrote:
barto wrote:http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20%20Files/Warren%20Commission-Subject/Capture/Capture.pdf

“ We may assume in fairness that the FBI swore every witness to silence pending his appearance before the commission; it is a sound rule that the more a witness relates his experiences to reporters, the less useful he is to courts of inquiry. The New Republic, Murray Kempton”

The Warren Commission was not established until November 29, 1963 - a week after the arrest. Oswald was arrested for suspicion of the Tippit murder, which would have been under the jurisdiction of Dallas prosectors as far as was known at that time. There would have been no need for the FBI to swear theater witnesses to silence.

I suppose the FBI could have sworn such witnesses to silence once the Warren Commission was going to take testimony. They could have consulted the list of theater witnesses or the day of arrest eyewitness statements and contacted them, explaining the importance of maintaining the integrity of witness testimony and swear them to silence, forget to call them to testify and then forget to release them from their oath of silence once the Commission published its findings.

Yeah, right.

It's a chronology

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Mon 21 Mar 2022, 5:10 am
What I was getting at was that here was a respected journalist of a left-leaning periodical that supposedly champions the underdog but dutifully supports the party line. The rot set in decades ago.

The New Republic itself fervently advocated US entry in WW1 saying the US needed “the tonic of a serious moral crusade” or some such bullshit.

So actually, the rot set in over a century ago.
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Mon 21 Mar 2022, 6:49 am
Ed.Ledoux wrote:Nice Mick!!

If they can hear the snap of a firing pin it must have been a real quiet arrest.

Of course Hill said something no other person there confirmed not even fellow officers nor Nick
Sgt. Gerald Hill

Mr. HILL. . . . I saw some officers struggling with a white male.

Quote:
I reached out and grabbed the left arm of the suspect, and just before I got to him I heard somebody yell, "Look out, he's got a gun."



In fact here is Nicks recollection:
McDONALD. Yes, sir. Now, as we fell into the seats, I called out, "I have got him," 

Then CT
WALKER. Well, I assume it was a click of a revolver on the shell, and that is when the gun was doing the most moving around. It was moving around in the general area, and they were still fighting. And some one said, "Let go of the gun," and Oswald said, "I can't."

Of course the cops friend Johnny on the spot says;
BREWER. And somebody hollered "He's got a gun."

Who that was yelling out anything about a gun is not discerned and left as rumor.

Hawkins:
... best I can remember, Sergeant Hill, who had gotten there, said, "I've got the gun," 

Let's face it only gun Nick grabbed was Lee's love gun.

WALKER. "McDonald's right hand as he was searching, and he felt of his pocket, and Oswald then hit him,"

I believe Nick knew how to elicit a reaction. 
Lee knocks Nick's cap off and the rest is his-story.
Nice Ed,

Cops after the fact say Lee had a gun,
Witnesses, as near as I can tell don't mention the gun or that they heard anyone cry out "He's got a gun" 

Cops all had guns. Maybe one of them had an extra gun. 

If Lee really did have a gun the minute he went to draw it he would've been a dead man in the theater. He was a suspected cop killer after all.

And we can ask another question while we're at it if he was this murderous bastard that they all claimed after the fact why didn't he just let loose and start firing the thing right there in the theater.

Aww shucks the darn gun after having knocked of 'ol JD dang went an' had a hissy and just plain stopped workin'

It's all BS....but we know that right?

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Mon 21 Mar 2022, 9:51 am
Ed’s theory makes a ton of sense. Oswald has his hands up, gets “searched” a little too closely, gets pissed, reacts, and a fight ensues. Also, just for argument’s sake, what happens if during the “search” a certain heavy object gets dropped in Oswald’s pocket? Could he have wondered wtf it was, grabbed it, pulled it out…and all of a sudden the suspect just pulled out a gun? The alleged comment by Oswald that he couldn’t let go of the gun is pretty interesting too. Did someone put it in his hand during the scuffle?

And I agree Mick, that’s the argument I was making in the other thread. If this guy supposedly just murdered a cop just to escape, why not take his chances and start blasting off rounds the second he sees a cop in the theater and make a run for it?
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Mon 21 Mar 2022, 12:04 pm
It still has to be explained why the cops would plant a revolver on Oswald when two separate broadcasts on the police radio indicated the Tippit murder suspect was armed with an automatic pistol. Revolvers and automatics look substantially different. One of those broadcasts was made by Gerald Hill who was among those officers present at Oswalds arrest in the theater. These reports of an automatic pistol were later found to be in error but that was not known at the time.

Prior to the Texas Theater arrest of Oswald, the cops went to a church (found no one) and a library and recognized the person of interest was not the suspect and let him go. These happened just before the first mention of an automatic pistol was broadcast.

Conceivably, if the Tippit murder was pre-planned and this was known by one of the cops and the murder weapon was handed off to this cop it could have been a part of a plan to plant it on a suspect who happened to be Oswald. The chances of pulling this off successfully do not look very good.
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Mon 21 Mar 2022, 1:50 pm
lanceman wrote:It still has to be explained why the cops would plant a revolver on Oswald when two separate broadcasts on the police radio indicated the Tippit murder suspect was armed with an automatic pistol. Revolvers and automatics look substantially different. One of those broadcasts was made by Gerald Hill who was among those officers present at Oswalds arrest in the theater. These reports of an automatic pistol were later found to be in error but that was not known at the time.

Prior to the Texas Theater arrest of Oswald, the cops went to a church (found no one) and a library and recognized the person of interest was not the suspect and let him go. These happened just before the first mention of an automatic pistol was broadcast.

Conceivably, if the Tippit murder was pre-planned and this was known by one of the cops and the murder weapon was handed off to this cop it could have been a part of a plan to plant it on a suspect who happened to be Oswald. The chances of pulling this off successfully do not look very good.

This is all speculative and just for the sake of brainstorming, but if Oswald really had a gun planted on him in the theater, and it’s a massive if, it didn’t have to be the Tippit murder weapon. If the goal was just to instigate a scenario, they could have plopped any old revolver in Oswald’s pocket, switched the guns in evidence later (even with Oswald’s actual revolver, assuming he really owned one), then bullshitted the evidence to tie the gun to the Tippit murder. The ballistics evidence isn’t exactly a slam dunk…

I don’t know this area of the case in very much depth, but my point is that tying Oswald to the Tippit case could have all been done after the fact. That’s pretty much the prevailing theory anyway as far as I know. 

What I’m trying to probe at is (1) why the hell does Oswald bring his gun to the theater and (2) why would he start a fight with a cop, possibly after putting his hands in the air? 

A throwaway gun dropped in Oswald’s pocket during a “search” answers both these questions. I still think Ed’s theory that Oswald basically got groped makes the most sense though, but Oswald having a gun on him is one of the major points used by WC defenders, and is supported by Oswald’s alleged non-answer excuses for having the gun during his interrogations. Any defense attorney would need a plausible evidence-based scenario for why Oswald had that gun on him, and “boys will be boys” doesn’t really cut it.
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Mon 21 Mar 2022, 2:07 pm
Oswald replied, “You know how boys are when they have a gun; they just carry it.” 


Speculation; Written after the fact IMO. After Oswald had been taken into custody and subsequently murdered under the watch of the Dallas Police Force.


There are a couple of Texas theater threads here at the forum - if you go back over these most of the answers are in the material written up.

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Tue 22 Mar 2022, 12:15 am
Prior to the theater search, the cops had been to several other locations to search for Tippit’s killer - a church, library, a couple of unoccupied homes. How could the cop with the throw down gun know which call to respond to? Some were not even driving/riding in their own vehicle.

Wouldn’t it have been easier to plant the throw down weapon along the escape route and have it “found” like the jacket? By the way, was the jacket ever tested for nitrates or fibers from the shirt Oswald was wearing at capture?

The simplest explanation is that Oswald had been placed in an unexpected and dangerous (hence the pistol) position following the assassination and went to the theater to buy time and consider his options.

While rational behavior should be the first assumption, at critical junctures people can become emotional. Did something about Oswald set off McDonald? Did Oswald panic?
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Tue 22 Mar 2022, 2:52 am
lanceman wrote:Prior to the theater search, the cops had been to several other locations to search for Tippit’s killer - a church, library, a couple of unoccupied homes. How could the cop with the throw down gun know which call to respond to? Some were not even driving/riding in their own vehicle.

Wouldn’t it have been easier to plant the throw down weapon along the escape route and have it “found” like the jacket? By the way, was the jacket ever tested for nitrates or fibers from the shirt Oswald was wearing at capture?

The simplest explanation is that Oswald had been placed in an unexpected and dangerous (hence the pistol) position following the assassination and went to the theater to buy time and consider his options.

While rational behavior should be the first assumption, at critical junctures people can become emotional. Did something about Oswald set off McDonald? Did Oswald panic?

That’s how I’ve looked at it too, that Oswald was afraid for his life and armed himself. The gun planting thing is just for the sake of argument, as an alternate explanation for why Oswald might have pulled out a gun while McDonald was basically on top of him. Again it wouldn’t have to be the same gun that ended up in evidence, just any old gun, like McDonald’s backup or something - and the goal would have just been to give McDonald an excuse to kick Oswald’s ass and make him look like a violent cop killer. 

If Oswald did have a gun - which is most likely what happened - as for what set Oswald off I still think Ed’s theory makes a ton of sense. We have a witness saying the fight started while McDonald was searching Oswald’s pocket, then all of a sudden Oswald throws a punch. Still seems like a bit of an overreaction to pull out a revolver after an over-friendly “search” though, but it could have just escalated once the fight started. 

The jacket was tested for fibers. They belatedly “found” fibers consistent with the brown arrest shirt in the jacket. I think the lab report is from the third week in December but don’t quote me on that. They also tested the blue work jacket found in the TSBD for gunshot residue, so they almost certainly did the same with the “Tippit jacket”, but as far as I know no results are available.
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Tue 22 Mar 2022, 5:51 am
An innocent explanation for Oswald having a pistol was that Oak Cliff was a fairly rough part of town.

Dale Myers (I know he’s not popular around here or the EF) had an article that pretty much demolished the cop car in the driveway waiting to ambush Tippit theory. Myers was able to track down the son of the woman who supposedly lived directly across the street who saw the cop car in the driveway and show that she did not live in that location until months after the Tippit shooting and could not have witnessed what she claimed. Instead, she and her son lived around the corner on Patton at the time of the Tippit shooting. The boy had been let out of school early because of the assassination and came across the Tippit murder before the ambulance arrived. The boy mentioned that it was a pretty rough neighborhood.

Something else that casts doubt on the cop car in the driveway is that Domingo Benevides had driven east down the alley not more than 1 or 2 minutes prior to the Tippit shooting. How could he miss seeing a cop car in the alley or driveway?

If the jacket had been positive for nitrates, Myers undoubtedly would have mentioned a positive result.

My guess is that Tippit saw or was told about a suspicious person near his last reported position at Eighth and Lancaster a few blocks east from where he was killed.  It didn’t warrant calling it in but I think he circled around to see if he could spot him and thats how he ended going east down 10th St.

I think Greg is correct in dismissing much of Bill Drena’s “Car #10 Where Are You?” timeline of  Tippit’s activities just before his death.

The dispatcher called Tippit at 1:03 but got no answer. I wonder what that was about and why the call was not repeated.

Is there anything useful in the McBride book “Into the Nightmare”? I think he believes in Harvey and Lee as well as tge cop car in the driveway theory so I am skeptical.
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Tue 22 Mar 2022, 8:23 am
If Oswald did have a gun - which is most likely what happened 


How so?

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Tue 22 Mar 2022, 8:28 am
Dale Myers (I know he’s not popular around here or the EF) had an article that pretty much demolished the cop car in the driveway waiting to ambush Tippit theory. Myers was able to track down the son of the woman who supposedly lived directly across the street who saw the cop car in the driveway and show that she did not live in that location until months after the Tippit shooting and could not have witnessed what she claimed.


Myers is not popular around here and for good reason - his work is easily unravelled using the available evidence and eyewitness testimony along with their affidavits.

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Mick_Purdy
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Tue 22 Mar 2022, 8:59 am
If the charge of attempted murder of a police officer in the Texas theater wasn’t leveled at Oswald when he was said to have resisted while attempting to fire the gun at officer McDonald  then one must discount all the theatrics written  in the reports after the fact.


Think about that.

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Mick_Purdy
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Tue 22 Mar 2022, 9:11 am
If the Texas Theater story held any water Lee would have been charged with attempted murder of McDonald. 
And McDonald could testify to that effect.
But that never happened. 

Because these stories are fabrications of the truth.

If a charge wasn’t leveled at Oswald for resisting and for attempting murder of McDonald then one must discount the theatrics. 

A list of witnesses was not kept, or if made - but made to vanish, Postal claims 24 tickets sold but only 3 witnesses are interviewed, give statements, or can be found.

A group of teens in the balcony are not vocal about their brush with history so are not available to give their details. 

Applin is one witness, who gives accounts that do not support the story told by police.

Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was Oswald, because -- for one reason, that he had on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to the gun

Oswald wore a long sleeve shirt.

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Mick_Purdy
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Tue 22 Mar 2022, 9:16 am
Texas Theatre Theatrics - Page 12 Oswald10

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Mick_Purdy
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Tue 22 Mar 2022, 9:17 am
Texas Theatre Theatrics - Page 12 Oswald11

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Mick_Purdy
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Tue 22 Mar 2022, 10:28 am
Note how the Texas theater story of Oswald's movements and what he was allegedly carrying is almost identical to the rifle and the sack story told by Frazier and Randle. Postal and Brewers accounts are almost identical to that of Frazier and Linnie Mae's. 

The Dallas Police were notoriously corrupt as shown by the Texas Innocence Project years later. 

The Texas Theater reports on Oswald's movement's and his arrest at the theater at least to my mind are a fabrication using some truthfulness mixed with a healthy dose of fantasy. There is a common thread to all the assertions made by the Police against Oswald which becomes extremely clear once you accept that the Police force was completely corrupt and provably so.

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