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Herbert "Leon" Lee

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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 22 May 2017, 8:11 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:
Hasan Yusuf wrote:Who knows how much of the following story from Carroll Jarnagin is true, but does anyone besides me find it even mildly curious that Jarnagin claimed the man he thought looked like Oswald was using the name H. L. Lee? As in Hebert Leon Lee????? WTF?

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10489&search=OH_Lee+Jack+Ruby#relPageId=589&tab=page

What is this; coincidence 344, 507 we have to believe was nothing but a coincidence? There are two things that never cease to amaze me doing this research. The first is the number of gonads who frequent the various assassination forums, the second is the number of "coincidences" I have stumbled upon.

Its off the charts in both respects Hasan

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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by greg parker on Thu 25 May 2017, 11:19 pm

Jarnagin stated he notified the Department of Public Safety on Oct 5 by phone of the plot against Connally. If true, there should be some record of of what he said in that call.

I do have some problems with it. 

A mafia plot against Connally? C'mon...

HL Lee was also supposed to be an alias, so wouldn't that rule this person out as being Herbert Leon Lee?

And what sort of plotters discuss the plot within earshot of a stripper and her lawyer... or anyone else for that matter?

FWIW (which may or may not be much, given what we know about the DPD and their polygraphs), Jarnagin failed a lie detector test.
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338070/m1/1/

Which takes me back to what I said at the start - his PRE-assassination statements to the Dept of Public Safety would clear all this up in a heart beat -- if he actually did call them as he said.

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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 26 May 2017, 6:04 am

Bart and I had a look for the stuff, sorta.
I feel the DPS and Rangers have not been forthcoming with their documents surrounding their reports duties interviews intelligence.
What they turned over to the Texas court of inquiry has been rummaged. What is left is files, not cubic feet of material.
The stuff is same as you could get at any library so why both with Austin, as its not original DPS and Rangers materials.

They played a huge role, yet scant folders are left.
This absence is evidence.
FWIW
Ed
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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 26 May 2017, 6:19 am

The letter that Jaworski was suggesting be sent to Washington refers to a meeting that had just taken place between Washington and Texas prosecutors about the course of the investigation, now two months after the assassination, and regarding “the subject of the discussion of last Friday at which Chief Justice Warren, you, my special counsel and I, [Dallas D.A.] Henry Wade and his assistant, Mr. Alexander, were present, I respectfully suggest that the Commission consider taking the following steps.” Jaworski’s plan was to find any connections the killers might have with others, yes—but the targets of the search Jaworski was suggesting were not the usual suspects in the deaths of President Kennedy and Lee Harvey Oswald. Not the mob, or right-wing extremists, not Cubans or Communists.
            The suspect was a member or members of law enforcement itself.
            “The ferreting out of this matter,” Jaworski described to the attorney general, required three steps, each in sequence after the other. He already had two suspects in mind.
            First he wrote: “From the director of both agencies involved, there should be obtained the names of every agent and representative in service in the Dallas area between the months of August and December. This information must be complete so that every single representative who acted for these agencies in that area, whether only a few days or for several months, is to be included.” Second: “Each of the men on these two lists should be examined under oath to determine whether he has any knowledge of the subject matter under discussion.” Third: “The director—the number one man of each agency—as well as the district director of each agency (being the district in which Dallas lies) each should similarly be examined to ascertain whether any of them has any knowledge of the matter under inquiry.” The attorney general’s file doesn’t specify the nature of “the matter under inquiry” or who the suspects were by name. But in another letter, on May 12, 1964, from Attorney General Carr to Colonel Garrison, the general makes an odd plea.

            Carr tells Colonel Garrison that Texas law enforcement has been “most helpful” up to that point but that the Warren Commission needs to know if there’s anything Washington hasn’t seen.
            “’The Commission,’” Carr quotes a communication from Chief Justice Warren, “’would like to know whether any law enforcement agency in the State of Texas possesses any information not hitherto disclosed to this Commission concerning the association of Lee Harvey Oswald or Jack Ruby with any Communist or subversive organizations in the United States or abroad, or with any criminals or criminal groups either in the United States or abroad.” The second part of the letter hits the mark. “The Commission would also like to know whether any law enforcement agency in the State of Texas possesses any investigatory reports, police records, or other official data not hitherto disclosed to the Commission concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.”
            Colonel Garrison’s response is not included in the attorney general’s files. And after the request for disclosure from Washington was transmitted—something happened to change the course of the investigation in Texas. The file got closed in Austin. The Court of Inquiry, under sudden pressure from D.C., went out of business. It seems someone didn’t dig what was happening in River City. It’s important to note that Attorney General Carr signed off on the findings of the Warren Commission—that both Ruby and Oswald acted alone. But that wasn’t the finding he came to independently, and he complained officially to Washington that, after he agreed to limit his investigation, he was denied promised information from federal investigators.
            In his letter to Waggoner Carr, and the proposed letter to Chief Justice Warren, Colonel Jaworski mentioned two government agencies “rumored” to have been somehow involved in Dallas, possibly running Oswald, or Ruby, as informants or agents, assassins or thugs. The FBI is presumably one. The other, well—conspiracy theorists have always liked the CIA as “accomplice” in the crime of the century. But there’s a better suspect. The agencies that Jaworski describes in his letter have district offices that cover Dallas. Of course the CIA would be a possibility—if the CIA had a North Texas office. Perhaps they do.
            As it turns out though, there was a hint at the mystery agency’s identity in the records that came to me from the Texas Department of Public Safety. In the box was another list of seized evidence—just like the one detailing what was taken from Oswald’s home. Jack Ruby’s car was his office. After his arrest the Dallas cops found the vehicle parked not far from police headquarters. In it was everything Ruby had used to run his business and do what he did, whatever that was—the hustling, small-time thuggery, the booze and the girls. The inventory from the car lists more than $1,000 in cash, his clubs’ receipts. There was a pair of brass knuckles, tool of his trade. The only reason Ruby’s gun wasn’t in the glove compartment where he normally kept it, was that he had taken it with him to shoot Oswald.
            In the car there was also a stack of free passes to his shows that Ruby gave out as promotions, and a collection of business cards collected as connections. One card was from a local justice of the piece, asking any police officer to please render assistance to Ruby—a get-out-of-jail-free card, the kind of thing you show to a cop when you’re pulling out your license after you get stopped on a traffic offense. But there was also a business card for a man named “W.M. Naylor,” showing an address of P.O. Box 4087 in Austin. That was interesting.

            If you’ve ever made an open records request of the Texas Rangers, Box 4087 would be familiar. It’s the address of the Texas Department of Public Safety headquarters.
            “W.M. Naylor,” according to the Department of Public Safety’s own records, was in November 1963 the chief of the DPS narcotics squad—in other words, Texas’s top narc. But Naylor actually transferred to narcotics from the Rangers where—also according to Department of Public Safety records—he was in the “Bureau of Intelligence.” Historically, investigators have always tried to make a connection between Ruby and Oswald, or failing that, Oswald and the FBI. A better connection is Ruby and the Rangers.

            Unfortunately, the exact nature of the relationship is unclear because the Rangers report they have "no records" on the Kennedy assassination.


Read more of the article here,
Cheers, Ed

http://texasmostly.blogspot.com/2012/05/inseptember-five-years-ago-cardboard.html
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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by greg parker on Fri 26 May 2017, 7:15 am

Stunning!

Thanks Ed!

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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 26 May 2017, 8:00 am

Great points Greg btw about HL Lee being an alias vs Herbert's name
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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by greg parker on Fri 26 May 2017, 8:43 am

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Great points Greg btw about HL Lee being an alias vs Herbert's name
To be honest, I think Jarnagin was drawing on news reports to cobble the story together and misremembered the OH Lee alias Oswald was supposed to have used. 

He was suspected of adding Walker to the story only after Oswald was tied to the alleged assassination attempt.
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142&search="robin_hood"#relPageId=294&tab=page

There was also the fact that Ruby was supposed to have known this person in Dallas previously. I don't think HL Lee was in Dallas previously.

But I would happily be wrong if DPS documents surfaced supporting the story.

One question relative to Ed's post: did the DPS have a working relationship with Civil Defense, CAP and similar groups and organizations?  The answer may be obvious to those in the US, but the US systems in these areas are completely different to how things operate here. I do think there are deep Civil Defense and CAP connections embedded into the assassination story.

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“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 26 May 2017, 2:33 pm

Agreed Jarnagin was 'piling on' at a late date, caught in this and had to blame the demon alcohol and an alarm clock radio's subliminal messages. Pathetic.


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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Terry W. Martin on Fri 26 May 2017, 10:46 pm

Greg, Ed,

This is some very interesting stuff!

And I am again getting that weird pear-shaped feeling.

The gatekeepers keep us looking deeply at the usual suspects while the more obvious answer has been staring us in the face.

Now, though, I wonder, why would the CAP be so invested in removing Kennedy? Was he onto their "game" (whatever that was)?
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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sat 27 May 2017, 4:29 am

Terry,
Would that pear shaped feeling be like the BYPs suddenly making sense, as faked evidence.
Fake evidence the DA or Fritz might use against a suspect or suspected accomplice. A tool to deceive those its shown too.
Perhaps even shown to Jarnagin, or whomever, a transcript the DA could claim was from a vice squad bugging of the Carousel.
So the photographic memory of an alcoholic lawyer remembers 3-4 pages of dialogue he is supposedly overhearing with uncanny ability and details. This guy should be in show biz!
I must get one of those clock radios!
Jarnagin"s mind playing tricks or did he watch a hypnosis act at the Carousel and becomes a human tape recorder activated by overhearing sloppy assassination planning discussions?
Hmmmm. Pear meet watermelon.

Cheers, Ed

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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sat 27 May 2017, 8:15 am

Jarnagin supposedly sees Weisman, Tippit and Ruby
Oh and Again saw Ruby and Oswald eating together.
I think I saw someone call him well respected.
A two bit low life lawyer, drunk and a liar, respected?
Yes, in Dallas that does not preclude respect.


I do not believe Jarnagin did anything but provided shitty legal services to Robin Hood, got drunk was almost thrown out by Crafard... why not Ruby at the top of the stairs, not like Ruby to not go throw someone down the stairs.
Jarnagin in blind rage over not being paid probably sealed the deal and decided its all true to him,, and the clock radio whispered in his ear to call the police, so he did, twice? And the dishonest police, whom he couldn't trust (so why did he call them?) did nothing, not even noting his alleged calls to DPS.
SHOCKING
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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by greg parker on Sat 27 May 2017, 10:07 am

Terry W. Martin wrote:Greg, Ed,

This is some very interesting stuff!

And I am again getting that weird pear-shaped feeling.

The gatekeepers keep us looking deeply at the usual suspects while the more obvious answer has been staring us in the face.

Now, though, I wonder, why would the CAP be so invested in removing Kennedy? Was he onto their "game" (whatever that was)?
Terry,

CAP's involvement began with Ferrie's recruitment of Oswald into their "game". The person at the top of the food chain though was not in CAP, and had his own personal motives. But he had friends everywhere. 

CAP and Civil Defense had a very close working relationship. Both worked on secret programs designed to combat what was perceived as imminent danger of a communist takeover from within and/or an invasion from without. Kennedy was seen as soft on communism at best, and a communist himself at worst. That made him a national security risk. It was their "role" to remove risks. 

The recruiter of the eventual patsy - a CAP Captain
The owner of the TSBD - a CAP founder
And IIRC my Ed Lessons, didn't Mary Bledsoe have some CAP connection/s?

Also... someone else with a CAP background was wandering around police HQ that weekend...

-------------------------------

Imho, the ones we need to concentrate on include members of CAP, Civil Defense, FBI, Secret Service, Army Intel, Private/company intel, members of the so-called Suite F8, and some loose cannon generals and CIA agents. 

I am not saying everyone in those groups is guilty. I am not even saying that every group named has members who were guilty. I am saying that the plotters and those used in the plot will be from one (and probably more) of those groups. I am also saying that the man at the top was a Suite F8 member.

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Terry W. Martin on Sun 28 May 2017, 11:13 am

Thanks, Greg. That's clears up quite a bit.
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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Tue 30 May 2017, 12:41 pm

I had an equation written out but didn't post it... it was pretty much what Greg diagrammed.

CAP = Civil Defense = Anti Communists
Kennedy + Detente = head shot

Its an work in progress

Cheers, Ed
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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Tue 30 May 2017, 7:37 pm

The issues concerning Herbert Lee are not confined to him having the same surname as Lee Oswald's alleged pseudonym. The FBI interviewed his grandfather in Shreveport, Louisiana, after they investigated the outgoing telephone call records from the Beckley rooming house.  The details of the records indicating the dates of the calls are not included in the record.  After the FBI had interviewed Herbert Lee's grandfather in Shreveport, LA, Lee himself contacted the FBI by telephone on December 10.  He was formally interviewed on December 17, 1963, after he said he'd been informed, by his grandfather, that the FBI were looking for him.  The story he told to the Federal Agents did not match the story of the person who he claimed he actually shared a room with, James Douglas Watson.  Lee claimed that he lived at the property "for about  four or five weeks in October, 1963." Lee also claimed that he didn't remember seeing Lee Harvey Oswald living there and that both he and Watson left the Beckley rooming house on November 1st, 1963.  He did make a point of claiming that James Watson may have remembered Oswald and had spoken to him even though he himself didn't remember Oswald.

When the FBI interviewed James Watson he does not mention Herbert Leon Lee as a roommate.  Actually, he does not mention the name Herbert Leon Lee at all.  In addition, Watson told the FBI that he stayed at 1026 North Beckley for "one week in early November."  These anomalies in recollections between the pair is enough to raise my suspicions that all is not how it appears to be concerning the Beckley rooming house tenants and the FBI did not reinterview either of them to clear up the discrepancies. 



Do we have a copy of this newspapers article with a roomer of 1026 N. Beckley?
Its the interview with John Carter in the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram soon after Nov 22?



http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/rokc%20forum/www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13143758-beckley-back-alley-4658.html?page=2

I'd like to show the picture Bart posted above to John Carter or Wanda even.


Hank Killam, whose wife worked for Jack

Ruby, died of a cut throat in Pensacola,

Florida four months after the assassination.

Police said the death was suicide and the

coroner ruled accidental death; newspapers

said he had either jumped or fallen through a

plate glass window. Killam was also an

acquaintance of John Carter, who lived in the

same rooming house with Oswald and dated

one of Ruby's employees.84


It goes on and on.  Hank Killam was married to Wanda Joyce Killam (Killom in
the Report index), a long time acquaintance and former employee of Jack
Ruby. According to "Coincidence or Conspiracy?",  p. 580, "In the early
morning hours of March 17, 1964, Hank Killam was found dead in Pensacola
Florida, where he had been visiting his mother. Mrs. Wanda Joyce Killam's
husband had been found lying on a sidewalk with a slashed jugular vein. A
store window beside Killam's body had been broken. Pensacola police -- and
subsequently the coroner -- concluded that Killam had probably been killed
by accidently falling into the window, being knocked unconscious by the
glass, and then bleeding to death."

So what, you say. These things happen.

Well, it seems that Wanda Killam was friends with a man named John Carter
who just happened to live at 1026 N. Beckley at the same time Oswald did.
The WR (Bantam paperback ed. p. 339) states, "Carter stated that he had not
heard of Ruby until Oswald was shot, HAD TALKED BRIEFLY WITH OSWALD ONLY
ONCE OR TWICE, and had never heard Oswald mention Ruby or the Carousel Club.
The Commission has no reason to disbelieve either Mrs. Killam or Mr.
Carter." [emphasis added - AS]

Leaving aside the Commission's standards for believing or disbelieving
people, and leaving aside the question of whether Carter knew Wanda's
husband Hank, and leaving aside the question of what Hank did for a living,
and leaving aside the question of who HE knew and hung around with, and
leaving aside the question of what John Carter did for a living and who HE
knew and hung around with, and leaving aside the question of how he came to
be living at that particular place at that particular time, and leaving
aside the question of how he came to be acquainted with Mrs. Killam in the
first place, since she stated that Carter had never visited the Carousel
Club and didn't know Jack Ruby.............[AAAARRRRRRRGH!!!!!!]

............the Report paraphrases Mrs. Killam's interview with "an agent of
the FBI" (unidentified!). It also quotes Carter DIRECTLY ("Carter stated").
So who did Carter talk directly to? Did the FBI interview him? If so, is
there a record of it? There is NO source citation in the Report either for
Killam's FBI interview (!!!!) or Carter's "statement".  Where did this
information come from? What ever happened to these folks, John Carter and
Wanda Killam?






During the period of time that MRS. KELTON lived
at 90S Gov. Nichols, a young man occupied an apartment in the
same quarters of the same address. MRS , KELTON knew the man,
bus- does not remember his name or anything about him except that
she thinks he may have worked in the window display department
of one of the Canal Street stores. MRS . KELTON said that the • man
she had seen and now knows is CLAY SHAW, visited this young man
on numerous occasions. MRS. KELT ON said she enc ountered SHAW
going in and out of the’ entrance which led to the slave quarters
at 905 Gov. Nichols, MRS. KELTON spoke with SHAW on many occasions,
usually just passing the time of day with him. Once the young man
told MRS. KELTON that "my patron (SHAW?) is sending me to Puerto
Rico 1 ’. MRS, KELTON said she knew the young man was gay, and she
assumed that SHAW was gay also. A man by the name of JOHN CARTER
still lives at 905 Gov. Nichols and according to MRS, KELTON,
knew SHAW'S boy friend. The 1967 City Directory lists
JOHN CARTER, painter, 905 Gov. Nichols, no telephone.

NOTE: I contacted the Caruos-Gall Real Estate Agency concerning

the names of the people who lived at 905 Gov. Nichols. A
Mr, Caruso said that we would have to subpoena his records
in order to see them. I have not talked to CARTER yet.

https://archive.org/stream/GarrisonPapers/Shaw,%20Clay%20L._djvu.txt


What are the chances?
Two painters named John Carter living in apartments in two cities and had known associations with people directly involved.

Cheers, Ed
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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Terry W. Martin on Tue 30 May 2017, 10:52 pm

Thanks, Ed. The story just keeps getting better and better...
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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Wed 31 May 2017, 11:22 am

Thanks Terry

Now if the Fbi had made repeated contact with Killam (Great name for a conspirator) where are all the contact reports
Is this just rumours.
I mean painters by nature go from job to job.
And how much time lost could you have on one job with an interview, re-interview or re-re-interview.
Sounds like a stretch to make Killam' death more suspicious.


Seems a police report and or crime scene photos and autopsy report and photos will be only way to say if a struggle took place.
And best evidence for or against some murder plot that waited for Killam to move to Florida.
If he was glass that inflicted his wound I would hope the coroner could tell that from a knife or razor blade.

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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by greg parker on Wed 31 May 2017, 1:23 pm

Terry W. Martin wrote:Thanks, Ed. The story just keeps getting better and better...
The rooming house had at least 2 (indirect) Ruby connections: Roberts and Carter.  

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62400&relPageId=24 

Apart from the owners (who had a proprietary interest in going along with the charade), they are the only ones to "confirm" Oswald stayed there. Unless Watson also confirmed it (can't find the report) but in any case he too, is suspect.

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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Wed 31 May 2017, 2:25 pm

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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Wed 31 May 2017, 2:54 pm


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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Wed 31 May 2017, 3:17 pm

Here is the Watson interview

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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Wed 31 May 2017, 3:24 pm

The same day Dec 19th the FBI in turn interviews all the restaurants cashiers/waitresses to see if Oswald ate there.

Beckley Club Cafe likewise can also be ruled out for a destination for Oswald as a "Tippit murderer."

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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Wed 31 May 2017, 3:48 pm

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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

Post by greg parker on Wed 31 May 2017, 4:31 pm

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Here is the Watson interview

Weird because when I said I couldn't find his FBI report, I did find this but since it didn't mention he was the Beckley Watson, I ignored t. It obviously is the same James Watson tho.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10730&relPageId=162

So... Watson phoned the FBI with a tip about seeing Oswald in cafes in Oak Cliff... but says nothing about staying at the same address.... until after his name comes up again via Herbert Lee... who himself makes no mention of working as a musician... though it is still possible he was laying floors in the day time and playing at night. Wonder where he was playing?

This may be where we should get Hasan back into it. IIRC, Hasan had postulated he was playing at a particular venue?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



https://www.thenewdisease.space
avatar
greg parker
Admin

Posts : 4591
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 59
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Re: Herbert "Leon" Lee

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