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greg_parker
greg_parker
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truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion Empty truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion

on Sun 10 Jan 2021, 4:04 pm
@Steve Thomas You made the following observations over at the Ed Forum. Sorry to address them here, but that's the way it is.

a) there is no indication that employees were required to show any ID to Kaminsky; and,
There is at least an indication - short of outright proof.

Here is what Harold Norman told the HSCA investigator:
truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion Norman11
This was no "roll call" he is talking about. You don't take names and addresses at a roll call. You don't tell people to go home and not go anywhere until the cops contact you at a roll call. Police, especially when taking lots of names and addresses that they KNOW they will need to contact later, do not ask for that information to be supplied verbally.  They could not trust everyone not to give false information. NOr could they affor to spend all that time asking for the right spellings of surnames or street names. The situation, at the very least, called for sighting ID with an address.


b) even if Oswald had shown his library card as ID, there was nothing on it that would lead the police to Beckley.
Sorry for the confusion, but neither I nor Jim said it did.

Here is how I think they got that address
https://gregrparker.com/forums/topic/the-johnsons-fay-puckett-and-pat-hall/



c) the idea that Kaminsky saw Oswald's library card upside down is pure speculation - there's no way for us to know.
It's not pure speculation. Pure speculation is the evidence-free assertion that the boarding house address and the old Elsbeth address were obtained from Intel files,

This is based on the fact that


  • Truly and Kaminsky were at that door collecting this information
  • The common sense idea that Kaminsky would require sighting of ID
  • The fact that Oswald only had one ID with an address on it - his old library card
  • The fact that the address he had when he obtained that card is the address shown on the list
  • That, as demonstrated, when held upside down, his name left to right, reads the same as it does on the list - "Harvey Lee Oswald". Also the card has a smudged numeral which could account for the slightly wrong street number on the list. 


In short, Steve, I see a lot of very good circumstantial evidence for the name and address on that list as coming from that library card. I have never seen anything but evidence-free assertions for any other explanation.

If you do have some evidence pointing elsewhere, I really would appreciate seeing it (if it is something you are free to share).

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
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alex_wilson
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truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion Empty Re: truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion

on Sun 10 Jan 2021, 11:24 pm
Likewise the reports of a " Harvey Lee Oswald" in the Soviet Union.
In Russia, then as now, in official documentation and in everyday life both the first name and the patronymic are used.

To Russian eyes Harvey would have been the patronymic.

The two first names were regularly reversed, even in the West the surname sometimes precedes the given name:

Oswald, Lee.

Harvey Lee was just the result of clerks etc adhering to the long established technique in official communiques of putting the patronymic first.

Likewise the Comrade and the Citizen . These were used interchangeably, depending on the circumstances and/ or the relationship between the parties in question.

I think Citizen was used more in formal situations, while Comrade was reserved for personal use , or between party members.

But I'd have to check. 

There was a clearly delineated protocol for correspondence at this time...

There's no big mystery behind this, also the Soviet bureaucracy at this time was notoriously unreliable, beginning the process of corrosion that would culminate in the Stagnation of the Brezhnev years at the Geriatocracy that followed...

_________________
A fez! A fez! My kingdom for a fez!!
The last words of King Richard HARVEY Plantagenet III 
Bosworth Field 1485

Is that a doppelganger in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?
Artist, poet, polymath, cancer research prodigies Judyth Vary Baker's  first words to Lee HARVEY Oswald. New Orleans April 1963

For every HARVEY there must be an equal and opposite LEE
Professor Sandy Isaac Newton Laverne Shirley Fonzie Larsen's 
Famous 1st Law of Doppelganging
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alex_wilson
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truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion Empty a cocktail with molotov....

on Mon 11 Jan 2021, 12:33 am
My mum visited the Soviet Union just after Gorbachev had come to power .. managing to interview both Molotov and Kaganovich , who were both still alive....just.

Embalmed and emaciated like a pair of walking mummies, still living in their apartments in the House on the Embankment...living fossils, spending their days and nights communing with the unquiet spirits that strode the poorly lit halls...

Molotov in particular was unrepentant....a shrivelled little husk, his American made suit clinging to his frail old bones as he sat under the huge portrait of the man who almost murdered his wife ..the man whose death saved his own life..

After Stalin's own signature, or rather his initials scrawled in green pencil, Molotov's own signature, neat and precise, a small self effacing scribble ...all ponderous loops and prim bourgeois spirals .. redolent of the man himself, most often described as a provincial school teacher. (Unprepossessing appearance, apart from the piercing grey eyes carefully obscured by the pince nez...) appears on most of the ukazes, the execution lists sent first by Yagoda then Yezhov, Blackberry, the poison dwarf, all 5 foot of him, and finally Lavrentii Pavlovich Beria...

This was mass murder by quota...30000 to be shot in the Ukraine...

Molotov spoke wistfully of Stalin, blushing like an ingenue at the articles praising his lugubrious diplomatic style..." Iron Arse" they called him...

Once daring to interrupt the Fuhrer in full flow, those hypnotic blue eyes filled with a far away daemonic gleam, the husky voice softening to a muted drawl ..as if he was sitting once again in the backroom of the Osteria in Munich surrounded by his closest acolytes...Sepp Dietrich, petrol pump attendant turned SS Colonel General, Emil Maurice, co founder of the Stosstrupp Hitler, rival for the affections of Geli Raubal ..half Jewish....

But they were sitting in the air raid shelter under the Reichs Chancellery....the eerie flicker of the candlelight and the dull thuds eminating through the reinforced steel and concrete would have unnerved most people..but not Vyaschslav Scriabin aka Molotov " the Hammer"..brusquely interrupting Hitler's monologue ( this was early 41 ) describing the New Order in lurid detail....the Soviets joining the victorious Axis powers in dividing up the British Empire between them...the British Hitler had assured his guest, more concerned about the German troops pouring into Romania and Finland than fantastical scenarios of warm water ports and natural spheres of influence centred on the Bosphorus, were defeated, their Empire a gigantic bankrupted estate ..

" If the British are defeated" Molotov inquired in a dull monotone " then whose planes are these flying overhead? Why are we hiding in this bunker?"

Kaganovich, " Iron Lazar" on the other hand feigned amnesia. Claiming to remember nothing...whining pitifully in a feeble croak " leave me in peace"

Another of the small group of Westerners ( graduate students/ academics) who had been granted access claimed he soiled himself in her presence. His official " minder" ignoring the smell, kept flicking through the his copy of Pravda...

Anyway there was a semi official exhibition taking place, " celebrating" Soviet inefficiency..

Amidst the piles of rusted samovars, three legged trousers and TV sets that looked like a blindfolded Professor Larsen had made them with a sledgehammer...

The star exhibit was a bottle of mineral water...with a tiny dead mouse floating around inside...

That the Soviet Union survived as long as it did was a tribute to the debilitating power of nightmares.

It was almost as if the psychic energy emitting from the Pentagon, Capitol Hill and certain offices in the Kremlin galvanized the necrotic assortment of skin, bones and fear... keeping it lumbering about until a new enemy could be conjured up from the Middle Eastern deserts and the sparse mountainous hinterlands of Central Asia...

Sorry Greg and everybody for interrupting the flow of this thread... please feel free to move this post to another thread..

_________________
A fez! A fez! My kingdom for a fez!!
The last words of King Richard HARVEY Plantagenet III 
Bosworth Field 1485

Is that a doppelganger in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?
Artist, poet, polymath, cancer research prodigies Judyth Vary Baker's  first words to Lee HARVEY Oswald. New Orleans April 1963

For every HARVEY there must be an equal and opposite LEE
Professor Sandy Isaac Newton Laverne Shirley Fonzie Larsen's 
Famous 1st Law of Doppelganging
greg_parker
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truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion Empty a cocktail with molotov....

on Mon 11 Jan 2021, 10:24 am
Anyway there was a semi official exhibition taking place, " celebrating" Soviet inefficiency..


Amidst the piles of rusted samovars, three legged trousers and TV sets that looked like a blindfolded Professor Larsen had made them with a sledgehammer...


The star exhibit was a bottle of mineral water...with a tiny dead mouse floating around inside...

That the Soviet Union survived as long as it did was a tribute to the debilitating power of nightmares.
Yet they put men into space and women onto tractors before anyone thought either would be possible.  Shit, I still have Ms February, 1955 on my wall from трактор девушка ежемесячно. 


Good stuff, Alex. I left it here but gave it a new title.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
greg_parker
greg_parker
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truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion Empty Re: truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion

on Mon 11 Jan 2021, 10:31 am
Joseph McBride at the ed forum wrote:The DPD had been tracking Oswald for quite some time and knew
his Beckley address. They sent Tippit and Mentzel out to 
get him in Oak Cliff shortly after the assassination, about an hour and a half before Oswald's
identity was "officially" known by the department following
his arrest in Oak Cliff and his transportation to the police station.  
Steve T has rightly asked for evidence for this. If there is any, it will be from interviews with DPD members or relatives - about as reliable as an Armstrong interview with the neighbor of a former resident of Thomas Avenue who once saw a kid shooting hoops with a 303 in the swamps of Alaska. Obviously this kid was Harvey.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
greg_parker
greg_parker
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truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion Empty Re: truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion

on Mon 11 Jan 2021, 10:55 am
@Steve Thomas wrote:  18 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:
It's worth noting the library card, even upside down, says 602 Elsbeth for the address.  Jmo again but if I was a betting man, I'd lean toward Oswald already being gone when Kaminsky and Truly started letting employee's out.  Once he heard JFK had actually been shot he knew he was implicated and tried to get the hell out of Dallas.

Ron.

According to the Dispatch Tapes, George Lumpkin had arrived at the TSBD by 12:49 PM

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

 

15 (Captain C.E. Talbert): “15 is at the scene. We... the building's the Old Purse Company on the east side of Houston. Somebody cut off the back side, will you? Make sure nobody leaves there.”

Dispatcher: “10-4, 15”

15: “15's in charge down here. Correction 5's (Deputy Chief Lumpkin) in charge.”

 

(It appears that Talbert had the wrong building in mind).
The "602" in the address is the result of viewing the card upside down. The "5" - at least upside down, to me looks like a "5" and a "2" stamped over each other.

There is NOWHERE else the address could have come from.

The radio log is interesting but I disagree that it says that Lumpkin arrived at 12:49. That was just the time it was phoned in that he was in charge. He may have just arrived, or he may have been there for 5 or 10 munites.

Talbot calling in the "Old Purse and Co." building is very puzzling. Especially if, as suggested in the log, he was at the scene.  That building was at 601 Elm and looked nothing like the TSBD.

truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion Pursec10

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
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Phil_Hopley
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truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion Empty The Purse & Co building

on Tue 12 Jan 2021, 1:10 am
According to this article, the FBI used the Purse & Co building as their operations centre after JFK was shot.

https://www.papercitymag.com/real-estate/dallas-historic-purse-building-restored-tanya-ragan-woman-developer/
greg_parker
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truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion Empty Re: truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion

on Tue 12 Jan 2021, 8:41 am
@Phil_Hopley wrote:According to this article, the FBI used the Purse & Co building as their operations centre after JFK was shot.

https://www.papercitymag.com/real-estate/dallas-historic-purse-building-restored-tanya-ragan-woman-developer/
Thanks Phil.

That would probably explain some cops being there, but it is a bit odd that I haven't been able to find confirmation through MFF.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
barto
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truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion Empty Re: truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion

on Tue 12 Jan 2021, 12:12 pm
truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion Texas_11

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alex_wilson
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truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion Empty Re: truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion

on Tue 12 Jan 2021, 11:37 pm
You've got the February 1955 issue!!!

You lucky capitalist dog!!! 

I'll swap you two September 1956s.... Tatiana, the titillating tractoress with tits shaped like turnips ...in a full colour spread with Tomsky Kazakhstan's answer to King Dong....16 inches of pure proletarian penetrative power ......hung better than a cattletruck full of Trotskyist saboteurs in a Byelorussian forest...

What they do with a couple of beetroots, a bowl of borscht,  the rusted bolt of a Gewehr '98 rifle is enough to make your degenerate bourgeois lackey eyes water...

Seriously, Steve T is someone who I've always respected. He's absolutely right to ask for any supporting documentation.

Since rereading William Weston's article ( Bill Shelley CIA agent for Armstrongs sake!!) I've been trying, with as much care and circumspection as possible to re evaluate much of what I believed.

Time and time again I'm amazed( and not in a good way) of how flimsy, poorly sourced and sometimes how blatantly deceptive a lot of the most treasured " CT" myths truly are. Time and time I'm amazed at how easily I was dazzled by the intoxicating allure of conspiracy...

Just because the Warren Commission relied upon deceit is not an excuse. You were absolutely spot on Greg when you said that we've got to be extra scrupulous when dealing with facts. Especially when dealing with such a controversial subject, one that is so emotive and so divisive. Any factual errors, however slight and seemingly inconsequential will be seized upon , and indeed celebrated by individuals with less than honourable motives...

All facts and indeed all witnesses must be treated equally. Be they Howard Brennan or Jean Hill

Too many people have been way too eager to believe, and way too accommodating with those beliefs...

Conspiracy has become both the means and the end. Conspiracy must be preserved, no matter the cost. The case has been distorted by far too many conspiracy friendly witnesses...whose testimony would have been discarded long ago if it wasn't for the fact their statement/ testimony/ witnessing props up the favoured theory.

How many years have been wasted chasing witness statements down dead end street after dead end street?

Take " Harvey Lee Oswald" ... IMHO this is just another non mystery , one that should have been put to bed decades ago.

The " roll call " too...

Certain " researchers" refuse to allow human beings to be human beings!!!

No one ever makes any honest mistakes, no one ever gets flustered, mixed up or confused...

Their various testimonies must be put under the lense of some impossibly unforgiving microscope, and held up to some arbitrary standard ; a totally unrealistic standard

Its become almost laughably absurd. It's utterly impossible to reason with individuals who seem to exist in some alternate dimension....
Whatever they need to be fake- photos, films, documents, human beings- ARE fake simply because they need them to be.
Ask for proof and you will be showered with abuse ...

Accused of being anything from a naïve fool to some nefarious disinfo operative...a minion of the shadow government dispatched from an office deep in the bowels of the Pentagon to stop David Josephs revealing that someone faked the shadows on HARVEYs passport photo...

Theres no shame in being mistaken; on the contrary it is by making mistakes and learning from them that helps an individual to grow. To mature.

Refusing to accept your mistakes, looking for others to blame, trying to accommodate that mistake by making more ...for example saying all the other films were faked rather than accepting your original claim was mistaken...is a recipe for utter disaster.

The lack of growth, remaining forever mired in a noisy adolescence.. blaming the rest of the world for your errors....is why , to a certain extent, research has stagnated, ossified in unwavering self righteousness....


Last edited by alex_wilson on Tue 12 Jan 2021, 11:43 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Tatiana's turnip shaped titties almost poked my eye out ..)

_________________
A fez! A fez! My kingdom for a fez!!
The last words of King Richard HARVEY Plantagenet III 
Bosworth Field 1485

Is that a doppelganger in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?
Artist, poet, polymath, cancer research prodigies Judyth Vary Baker's  first words to Lee HARVEY Oswald. New Orleans April 1963

For every HARVEY there must be an equal and opposite LEE
Professor Sandy Isaac Newton Laverne Shirley Fonzie Larsen's 
Famous 1st Law of Doppelganging
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