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Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

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Colin_Crow
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 5:47 pm
According to the WC testimonies of Frazier and Randle there was conversation between the two about Oswald coming home to Irving to pick up curtain rods on Thursday evening. This appears to be totally contrived to me and an attempt to bolster Frazier's credibility. Ie it didn’t happen. This is why there is no mention of curtain rods by Adamcik, Rose or Stovall about the events that afternoon. It Linnie May knew of the curtain rods why did she not tell Adamcik of them when referring to the mysterious package?

There were a number of calls from Dallas to the Paine's that afternoon. Some to and from Fritz's office and some from Decker's. As the bag was in evidence just after 3pm I strongly suspect that the officers at the Paine’s would have been told to ask whether any of them saw Oswald with a long bag that morning. Could it be that the bag discussion with Randle was instigated by one of the cops? Linnie May was obviously worried about her brother. They had likely been communicating about his worsening predicament for hours that afternoon. Linnie May might have thought it best to "remember" Oswald with a rifle containing bag. It would then associate only Oswald as transporting a rifle. She would then have time to relate to Buell of a bag that she had informed police of about an hour before.

Maybe Oswald did carry a bag, maybe not but the Frazier/Randle story that afternoon is worth investigating as they were definitely hiding something. And the cops went along with some of it by trying to claim they talked to Ruth and Marina about an hour later than they really did.
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 5:50 pm
PS to Greg and your family I hope you are all fit and well.
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:30 pm
Colin Crow wrote:PS to Greg and your family I hope you are all fit and well.
Colin, yes mate. Thanks for the thought.

The better half has been working from home. Looks like that is going to end up a permanent arrangement. And the boys are about to go for their L plates.

It's a deadly combination -- a perfect storm.

Importantly though, the dog still talks to me, even if only to remind me it's his dinner time. 

Hope you're enjoying retirement in these Bran Nue Daes.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Sat 20 Jun 2020, 11:02 am
greg parker wrote:Mick,

this is what I think... those rods were given to the Oswald's to use if needed when they found a place. Lee wrapped them in Junie's blanket, still also wrapped in the brown paper. The rods were moved around out of the way by Mike between March 63 and whatever date they were given to the Oswald's and the package was wrapped in the blanket. After that, Mike probably moved the blanket/package once or twice out of his way.

As shown on the  Washing Machine Conspiracy thread, Ruth was in Oak Cliff with Lee on Saturday the 15th looking at an apartment and phoning about rental of a washing machine. Was Oswald planning on taking apartment from the following weekend? Did it need rods and curtains? 

I think perhaps it may have been mentioned to Buell that week or the previous that he might be bringing in curtain rods one day. Friday the 22nd may well have been the day he was going to. Except that when he went to grab them, they were not where he had left them. Ruth had placed them up on high shelf (where they remained until at least the day that the WC paid a visit to the garage to look at them.

So... Lee departs without them. He could not be allowed to take them because they would then be found at the book depository and confirm he took those and not a rifle. But with no curtain rods at the TSBD or left in Buell's car (which was thoroughly searched), he can now be said to have carried anything they want of a similar length. He can also made out to be a liar by having him disclaim the curtain story (actually, he is quoted in one report as simply saying the Buell was mistaken and was thinking of a past occurrence).

The only plan that Lee knew of that day was to meet Marina and Ruth after work in Oak Cliff so Marina could check the apartment out and buy new shoes for Marina. Ruth had testified that she and Marina had planned on shoe shopping on the afternoon of Nov 22 with $10 Lee had given his wife for that purpose.

I believe Lee overheard Shelley tell his wife on the phone that there would be no more work that day and so called Ruth to  ask if they could meet him in Oak Cliff sooner as he would be leaving work shortly due to what had happened.

I think Ruth has fobbed him off with some excuse or other and that they would have to stick to the original time. I think she then suggested he go see a movie at the Texas Theatre and they would meet hi outside after that.

According to Asst DA Jim Bowie, there were a number of calls about someone suspicious going into the TT who matched the suspect from Dealey. Was Ruth one of those callers? More than possible.  This would explain why it took so long for Postal and Brewer to give statements. There was a lot to be ironed out to get the stories straight.

During testimony, Marina talks about Lee reminding her to get Junie some new shoes.

It was never Junie who was getting new shoes. It was Marina. It got changed to Junie to throw off any connecting of dots. But good ol' quaker Ruth isn't allowed to tell a lie. Guild the lily? Sure. Answer a different question to the one asked? Sure. Deflect? Sure. Dance around the facts? Sure. But lie? NEVER EVER EVER.

While we are at the TT, let's also throw in this. Fay Puckett... daughter of the Johnsons, had a photographic studio opposite the theatre. Her daughter Pat Hall, claimed from around 2006 and beyond that her mother witnessed Oswald's arrest and recognized him as a paying guest of her parents. Hall further claimed that her mother phoned the Johnsons to tell them. Of course, I believe Puckett was mistaking Oswald for Herbert Leon Lee... but let's put aside.

The Johnson's claimed to have been contacted by a railroad cop friend at the cafe they ran

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.
Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?

Neither of the Johnsons mention being contacted by their daughter.

I think Fay Puckett phoned the railway cop and passed the info about who thought the arrestee was to him. He has phoned the Johnsons and then contacted DPD to tell them.

And that is how the DPD found out about the N Beckley boarding house so quickly. Not army intel. Not Oswald. Not via a reverse phone number check.
Certainly all plausible and hard to argue with most of this.

During testimony, Marina talks about Lee reminding her to get Junie some new shoes.

It was never Junie who was getting new shoes. It was Marina. It got changed to Junie to throw off any connecting of dots. But good ol' quaker Ruth isn't allowed to tell a lie. Guild the lily? Sure. Answer a different question to the one asked? Sure. Deflect? Sure. Dance around the facts? Sure. But lie? NEVER EVER EVER.



Remind me Greg why the shoes could not be for Junie, I'm curious as to why that matters. Sorry in advance if this has been addressed. 




The Johnson's claimed to have been contacted by a railroad cop friend at the cafe they ran

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.
Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?





Fay Puckett... daughter of the Johnsons, had a photographic studio opposite the theatre. Her daughter Pat Hall, claimed from around 2006 and beyond that her mother witnessed Oswald's arrest and recognized him as a paying guest of her parents. Hall further claimed that her mother phoned the Johnsons to tell them.


But what if you're right. What if Johnson while still at the cafe - after having heard from her daughter from the photographic studio across the road from the theater about someone who looks like the rooming house guest being led out by police. What if it had been her who telephoned her police friend with that news. Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and you'd have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.





It makes much more sense than any of the official narrative.

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Sat 20 Jun 2020, 11:19 am
Certainly all plausible and hard to argue with most of this.

During testimony, Marina talks about Lee reminding her to get Junie some new shoes.

It was never Junie who was getting new shoes. It was Marina. It got changed to Junie to throw off any connecting of dots. But good ol' quaker Ruth isn't allowed to tell a lie. Guild the lily? Sure. Answer a different question to the one asked? Sure. Deflect? Sure. Dance around the facts? Sure. But lie? NEVER EVER EVER.



Remind me Greg why the shoes could not be for Junie, I'm curious as to why that matters. Sorry in advance if this has been addressed. 

They could be, But what I am saying is that Ruth said Lee gave Marina $10 for shoes for herself (as opposed to June). She further testified that they were going shopping for those shoes on the afternoon of Nov 22. The logical place to do that shopping was in Oak Cliff where there were three shoe shops close together, all near the TT. Irving was still very small and I highly doubt it had any shoes stores at the time.

But Marina does not mention any of this, nor is she asked about it. Instead, she offers up that Lee reminded her to get shoes for Junie. 

Marina routinely lied about anything at all. Ruth did not.  For all that, you still could be right. It is impossible to prove one way or the other, so it comes down to who is more believable on this one issue.

 
The Johnson's claimed to have been contacted by a railroad cop friend at the cafe they ran

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.
Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?





Fay Puckett... daughter of the Johnsons, had a photographic studio opposite the theatre. Her daughter Pat Hall, claimed from around 2006 and beyond that her mother witnessed Oswald's arrest and recognized him as a paying guest of her parents. Hall further claimed that her mother phoned the Johnsons to tell them.


But what if you're right. What if Johnson while still at the cafe - after having heard from her daughter from the photographic studio across the road from the theater about someone who looks like the rooming house guest being led out by police. What if it had been her who telephoned her police friend with that news. Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and you'd have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.
Sorry Mick, I'm not following what you're getting at here.

_________________
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-----------------------------
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Sat 20 Jun 2020, 11:51 am
greg parker wrote:
Certainly all plausible and hard to argue with most of this.

During testimony, Marina talks about Lee reminding her to get Junie some new shoes.

It was never Junie who was getting new shoes. It was Marina. It got changed to Junie to throw off any connecting of dots. But good ol' quaker Ruth isn't allowed to tell a lie. Guild the lily? Sure. Answer a different question to the one asked? Sure. Deflect? Sure. Dance around the facts? Sure. But lie? NEVER EVER EVER.



Remind me Greg why the shoes could not be for Junie, I'm curious as to why that matters. Sorry in advance if this has been addressed. 

They could be, But what I am saying is that Ruth said Lee gave Marina $10 for shoes for herself (as opposed to June). She further testified that they were going shopping for those shoes on the afternoon of Nov 22. The logical place to do that shopping was in Oak Cliff where there were three shoe shops close together, all near the TT. Irving was still very small and I highly doubt it had any shoes stores at the time.

But Marina does not mention any of this, nor is she asked about it. Instead, she offers up that Lee reminded her to get shoes for Junie. 

Marina routinely lied about anything at all. Ruth did not.  For all that, you still could be right. It is impossible to prove one way or the other, so it comes down to who is more believable on this one issue.

 
The Johnson's claimed to have been contacted by a railroad cop friend at the cafe they ran

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.
Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?





Fay Puckett... daughter of the Johnsons, had a photographic studio opposite the theatre. Her daughter Pat Hall, claimed from around 2006 and beyond that her mother witnessed Oswald's arrest and recognized him as a paying guest of her parents. Hall further claimed that her mother phoned the Johnsons to tell them.


But what if you're right. What if Johnson while still at the cafe - after having heard from her daughter from the photographic studio across the road from the theater about someone who looks like the rooming house guest being led out by police. What if it had been her who telephoned her police friend with that news. Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and you'd have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.
Sorry Mick, I'm not following what you're getting at here.
I'm sorry Greg, Grammar's not my strong point.

I'm agreeing with you, or at least that was my intention just poorly worded I guess.

I think you're right no matter who the shoes were for that's what was intended that Friday afternoon- shoe shopping.

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Sat 20 Jun 2020, 11:56 am
Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and you'd have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.


This should have read :


Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and  the police would have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.

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Sat 20 Jun 2020, 12:39 pm
Mick Purdy wrote:
greg parker wrote:
Certainly all plausible and hard to argue with most of this.

During testimony, Marina talks about Lee reminding her to get Junie some new shoes.

It was never Junie who was getting new shoes. It was Marina. It got changed to Junie to throw off any connecting of dots. But good ol' quaker Ruth isn't allowed to tell a lie. Guild the lily? Sure. Answer a different question to the one asked? Sure. Deflect? Sure. Dance around the facts? Sure. But lie? NEVER EVER EVER.



Remind me Greg why the shoes could not be for Junie, I'm curious as to why that matters. Sorry in advance if this has been addressed. 

They could be, But what I am saying is that Ruth said Lee gave Marina $10 for shoes for herself (as opposed to June). She further testified that they were going shopping for those shoes on the afternoon of Nov 22. The logical place to do that shopping was in Oak Cliff where there were three shoe shops close together, all near the TT. Irving was still very small and I highly doubt it had any shoes stores at the time.

But Marina does not mention any of this, nor is she asked about it. Instead, she offers up that Lee reminded her to get shoes for Junie. 

Marina routinely lied about anything at all. Ruth did not.  For all that, you still could be right. It is impossible to prove one way or the other, so it comes down to who is more believable on this one issue.

 
The Johnson's claimed to have been contacted by a railroad cop friend at the cafe they ran

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.
Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?





Fay Puckett... daughter of the Johnsons, had a photographic studio opposite the theatre. Her daughter Pat Hall, claimed from around 2006 and beyond that her mother witnessed Oswald's arrest and recognized him as a paying guest of her parents. Hall further claimed that her mother phoned the Johnsons to tell them.


But what if you're right. What if Johnson while still at the cafe - after having heard from her daughter from the photographic studio across the road from the theater about someone who looks like the rooming house guest being led out by police. What if it had been her who telephoned her police friend with that news. Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and you'd have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.
Sorry Mick, I'm not following what you're getting at here.
I'm sorry Greg, Grammar's not my strong point.

I'm agreeing with you, or at least that was my intention just poorly worded I guess.

I think you're right no matter who the shoes were for that's what was intended that Friday afternoon- shoe shopping.
Sorry, I still didn't address why it matters. I was thinking that if she admitted she was to buy shoes for herself, that it may be too close to the facts and other facts might start coming out, but on reflection, you're right - it probably didn't matter. 

But Marina should have been asked about Ruth's testimony.

Did Lee give you money to buy shoes for yourself?

Were you going shopping for them on the afternoon of Friday Nov 22?

Where were you going to shop for them?

Did you have a specific time in mind?

Were you going to meet Lee for this shopping expedition?

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

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Sat 20 Jun 2020, 2:47 pm
greg parker wrote:
Mick Purdy wrote:
greg parker wrote:
Certainly all plausible and hard to argue with most of this.

During testimony, Marina talks about Lee reminding her to get Junie some new shoes.

It was never Junie who was getting new shoes. It was Marina. It got changed to Junie to throw off any connecting of dots. But good ol' quaker Ruth isn't allowed to tell a lie. Guild the lily? Sure. Answer a different question to the one asked? Sure. Deflect? Sure. Dance around the facts? Sure. But lie? NEVER EVER EVER.



Remind me Greg why the shoes could not be for Junie, I'm curious as to why that matters. Sorry in advance if this has been addressed. 

They could be, But what I am saying is that Ruth said Lee gave Marina $10 for shoes for herself (as opposed to June). She further testified that they were going shopping for those shoes on the afternoon of Nov 22. The logical place to do that shopping was in Oak Cliff where there were three shoe shops close together, all near the TT. Irving was still very small and I highly doubt it had any shoes stores at the time.

But Marina does not mention any of this, nor is she asked about it. Instead, she offers up that Lee reminded her to get shoes for Junie. 

Marina routinely lied about anything at all. Ruth did not.  For all that, you still could be right. It is impossible to prove one way or the other, so it comes down to who is more believable on this one issue.

 
The Johnson's claimed to have been contacted by a railroad cop friend at the cafe they ran

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.
Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?





Fay Puckett... daughter of the Johnsons, had a photographic studio opposite the theatre. Her daughter Pat Hall, claimed from around 2006 and beyond that her mother witnessed Oswald's arrest and recognized him as a paying guest of her parents. Hall further claimed that her mother phoned the Johnsons to tell them.


But what if you're right. What if Johnson while still at the cafe - after having heard from her daughter from the photographic studio across the road from the theater about someone who looks like the rooming house guest being led out by police. What if it had been her who telephoned her police friend with that news. Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and you'd have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.
Sorry Mick, I'm not following what you're getting at here.
I'm sorry Greg, Grammar's not my strong point.

I'm agreeing with you, or at least that was my intention just poorly worded I guess.

I think you're right no matter who the shoes were for that's what was intended that Friday afternoon- shoe shopping.
Sorry, I still didn't address why it matters. I was thinking that if she admitted she was to buy shoes for herself, that it may be too close to the facts and other facts might start coming out, but on reflection, you're right - it probably didn't matter. 

But Marina should have been asked about Ruth's testimony.

Did Lee give you money to buy shoes for yourself?

Were you going shopping for them on the afternoon of Friday Nov 22?

Where were you going to shop for them?

Did you have a specific time in mind?

Were you going to meet Lee for this shopping expedition?
It is something we could still ask her. And ask Ruth too. If they can remember of course. It would help fill in the gaps. If they had intended to go shopping in Oak Cliff near the TT that would make sense of Lee having gone to the Oak Cliff Texas Theater when work had been canceled. Possibly to catch up after the movie and hitch a ride home. It would make sense of the possibility of the group all having committed to looking at a house to rent after the shopping was done.

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Sat 20 Jun 2020, 2:57 pm
Mick Purdy wrote:Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and you'd have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.


This should have read :


Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and  the police would have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.
Thanks for clarifying mate.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

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Sun 21 Jun 2020, 4:46 pm
CC wrote:Frazier claimed the cops came for him not long after he arrived at the hospital. Total BS.....it had to be many hours before they came for him.

According to this, McCabe made the call to DPD at 9pm that he had picked up Frazier.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
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Sun 21 Jun 2020, 5:33 pm
greg parker wrote:
CC wrote:Frazier claimed the cops came for him not long after he arrived at the hospital. Total BS.....it had to be many hours before they came for him.

According to this, McCabe made the call to DPD at 9pm that he had picked up Frazier.
I am positive that I have seen the report submitted by McCabe somewhere. He  placed the arrest and transport of Frazier to Irving PD about an hour earlier than Rose and Stovall put it. From memory it was before 6pm. Can’t find the document anywhere now. It seems Linnie May talked to Adamcik just before the cops left for Dallas with Marina and Ruth. Maybe Rose and Stovall called the information in to Fritz before they left. There is the confusion over Parkland vs the Irving medical centre to consider. Perhaps calls were made while they were inbound and McCabe acted about the time of their arrival in Dallas.

Frazier's story is a mess. He says nothing about McCabe at all.
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Sun 21 Jun 2020, 11:45 pm
There is something wrong with Frazier's stories. His recollections. His memory. His ability to remember events. He has lied. I wish he'd just come out and clear things up Nothing he has to say about Oswald and his movements on the Friday are truthful. IMO.

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Mon 22 Jun 2020, 1:03 pm
Colin Crow wrote:Greg have you seen the work of Alan Ford on the curtain rods associated with Ruth Paine?

Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 904-F9107-DE7-E-4260-963-C-A98160661-C8-D

"Sequence of events:

1. March 15: Agent Howlett submits 2 curtain rods to Lieutenant L. C. Day for fingerprinting (to check for a match with Oswald's prints)

2. March 19: Ruth Paine testifies in Washington that 2 curtain rods have remained undisturbed in her garage since months before the assassination; she oh-so-obligingly agrees to allow the WC to inspect these 2 rods in situ when they visit her home in Irving in a week's time


3. March 23: Agent Howlett inspects 2 curtain rods in the Paine residence which have supposedly lain there undisturbed for months

3. March 24: Lieutenant L. C. Day releases back to Agent Howlett the 2 curtain rods he had received from him on March 15.

The glaring timeline anomaly leads to an inescapable conclusion:

The 2 curtain rods submitted to Lieutenant Day on March 15 were tested for Oswald's fingerprints

-------------not because they came from the Paine garage (impossible according to the WC's own timeline [March 15 preceded March 23!], and absurd on the face of it [Mr Oswald's fingerprints on curtain rods never even taken from the Paine household would be an irrelevance to the case])
-------------but because they had been found somewhere other than in the Paine garage.

The on-the-record scene in the Paine garage on March 23, in short, was a staged affair:
-------------The 2 curtain rods which Agent Howlett inspected in situ had been removed from that garage by Mr Oswald on the night of Thursday 11/22 and brought to the Depository building the next morning in a large light-brown paper bag
-------------These 2 curtain rods had been found---somewhere other than in the Paine garage---after the assassination"


It’s been a while since I looked at this one. Not sure what to make of it. But it seems the evidence numbers relate to the Paine rods.
The document reveals that SS Agent Howlett presented curtain rods to Day on the morning of March 15 for fingerprinting in relation to Oswald. Discovery of curtain rods in what possible location would necessitate such an analysis?
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Tue 23 Jun 2020, 12:33 am
From "You are the Jury", David Belin p242.

"Did the bag contain curtain rods?

No curtain rods were discovered in the TSBD Building after the assassination. No curtain rods were taken from the Paine home".

Oh really Mr Belin!
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Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Tue 23 Jun 2020, 12:41 am
Colin Crow wrote:From "You are the Jury", David Belin p242.

"Did the bag contain curtain rods?

No curtain rods were discovered in the TSBD Building after the assassination. No curtain rods were taken from the Paine home".

Oh really Mr Belin!
To be kind, I'll assume he meant "not taken from the Paine home... by Oswald..."


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Tue 23 Jun 2020, 1:13 am
Frazier and Randle testified that they discussed the trip to pick up the curtain rods on the evening of 21st November 1963.

Mr. BALL - Do you remember the night before, that is after you got home that night, that your sister asked you how it happened that Oswald came home with you
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; I believe she did or something. We got to talking about something and said, I told her that he had rode home with me and told her he said he was going to come home and pick up some curtain rods or something. I usually don't talk too much to my sister, sometimes she is not there when I am in because she is either at the store or something like that and I am either when she comes in as I say I am playing with the little nieces and we don't talk too much about work or something like that. 
Mr. BALL - This night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her about the fact that Oswald had come home with you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - 1 believe I did. 
Mr. BALL - Did you tell her what he had told you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. I believe she said why did he come home now and I said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw Lee get out of Wesley's car? 
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. 
Mr. BALL. About what time of night was it? 
Mrs. RANDLE. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that. 
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him? 
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the grocery store. 
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir
Mr. BALL. Did you think it was unusual that he had come home that night? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I knew that he had--Friday is the only time he had ever ridden with him before which was a couple of times, I don't think he rode with him over three times, I am not sure but I never did know of him arriving, you know, except on Friday. 
Mr. BALL. Well, did you mention to Wesley that night or did you ask Wesley that night how Lee happened to come home on Thursday? 
Mrs. RANDLE. I might have asked him
Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything about curtain rods
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. What do you remember about that? 
Mrs. RANDLE. He had told Wesley-- 
Mr. BALL. Tell me what Wesley told you. 
Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment. 
Mr. BALL. When did Wesley tell you that? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, that afternoon I suppose I would have had to ask him, he wouldn't have just told me. 
Mr. BALL. You mean that night? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. After he came home? 
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the store. So I probably asked him when I got back what he was doing riding home with him on Thursday afternoon. 
Mr. BALL. You think that was the time that Wesley told you- 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; after I got back home. 
Mr. BALL. That Lee had come home to get some curtain rods? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I am sure he told me that.

Ignoring the apparent contradiction by LMR about the conversation. Why was there any confusion from her regarding the package on the morning of the 22nd? She knew Oswald's purpose according the Buell.....to get the rods....

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? 
Mr. ADAMCIK. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to the house as I was coming back with--no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She (Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying with her, and he rode to work with him that morning. She told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car. 
Mr. BELIN. Did she say how he was carrying the package? 
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I know we did, but I didn't take it. 
Mr. BELIN. Did she say about how long the package was? 
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box. That is all I remember her saying.

Seems she forgot about the curtain rods when talking to the police immediately after the shooting.
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Tue 23 Jun 2020, 1:19 am
Colin Crow wrote:From "You are the Jury", David Belin p242.

"Did the bag contain curtain rods?

No curtain rods were discovered in the TSBD Building after the assassination. No curtain rods were taken from the Paine home".

Oh really Mr Belin!
Possibly Greg, but rods were given to Day by Howlett on March 15. If they were from the Paine garage, Oswald's prints would prove nothing if there were originally only two. If originally four but now only two would be interesting.
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Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Tue 23 Jun 2020, 10:40 am
Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 Med_res



Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 Affidavit-In-Any-Fact-typed-by-Buell-Wesley-Frazier-0480-002

Allegedly the Affidavit sworn on the 22nd November 1963. This affidavit is the second sworn statement taken from Buell Frazier on that day. Police reports state that the first was torn up and a second was rewritten.

This affidavit has Buell stating that Lee Oswald had told him there were curtain rods in the big sack that Frazier says he witnessed on the back seat of his car.
He further stated that Lee carried the big sack in his right hand under his arm and that the package was straight up and down.

It may have been common practice for Police to rewrite sworn statements that conveyed what they wished to have said, I simply don't know. Is there evidence of this practice? Maybe. But I suspect after Frazier had been called back to the Police department for the Polygraph test this second affidavit may have been the end result of coercion. I could be wrong, it's whether one wants to believe that Linnie Mae Randle and Buell wesley Frazier acted with malice or not when they lied about Lee Oswald having carried a large sack big enough to carry a rifle into the TSBD on that Friday.

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Fri 26 Jun 2020, 9:23 am
Just a look at the testimonies of Linnie May and Buell raise red flags regarding the curtain rod story. The leading questions by Ball are astonishing.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him arrive with Lee? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

This answer (under oath) indicates that she knew what Oswald looked like prior to 11/22/63....

Mr. BALL. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw Lee get out of Wesley's car? 
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. 

See above......more confirmation....see can fleetingly recognise Oswald by sight, as confirmed below

Mr. BALL. About what time of night was it? 
Mrs. RANDLE. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that. 
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him? 
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the grocery store. 
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir

Oh dear...Quite clear now from this response (under oath) that she did not recall discussing the unusual trip with her brother.

Mr. BALL. Well, did you mention to Wesley that night or did you ask Wesley that night how Lee happened to come home on Thursday? 
Mrs. RANDLE. I might have asked him

Ball, not satisfied with her original negative response, asks again and gets some movement from a negative to a possible.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything about curtain rods
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Ah.....now Ball, the clairvoyant, gets to the point. Is his nickname crystal? 

Mr. BALL. What do you remember about that? 
Mrs. RANDLE. He had told Wesley-- 
Mr. BALL. Tell me what Wesley told you. 
Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment.
Mr. BALL. When did Wesley tell you that? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, that afternoon I suppose I would have had to ask him, he wouldn't have just told me

Sound like a convincing true recollection (under oath) to anyone?

Mr. BALL. You mean that night? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. After he came home? 
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the store. So I probably asked him when I got back what he was doing riding home with him on Thursday afternoon. 
Mr. BALL. You think that was the time that Wesley told you- 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; after I got back home. 
Mr. BALL. That Lee had come home to get some curtain rods? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I am sure he told me that.  

At last some certainty (under oath). You can choose to believe Linnie May, please forgive me if I have some doubt. If the crime was stealing curtain rods would you convict Oswald based on her testimony?
Now for Frazier.....

Mr. BALL - Do you remember the night before, that is after you got home that night, that your sister asked you how it happened that Oswald came home with you
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; I believe she did or something. We got to talking about something and said, I told her that he had rode home with me and told her he said he was going to come home and pick up some curtain rods or something. I usually don't talk too much to my sister, sometimes she is not there when I am in because she is either at the store or something like that and I am either when she comes in as I say I am playing with the little nieces and we don't talk too much about work or something like that. 


Good of Ball to lead the witness. Seems they talked about something.......but they normally don't' talk too much.

Mr. BALL - This night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her about the fact that Oswald had come home with you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe I did

Convincing?

Mr. BALL - Did you tell her what he had told you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. I believe she said why did he come home now and I said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods. 

Now that we have heard from Frazier and his sister, (who were undoubtedly coached before their appearances), do you convict on Oswald's theft of the curtain rods?
The minimalist scenario I can imagine is that Frazier's said nothing about Curtain raids to his sister prior to the assassination. The Thursday sighting and discussion between brother and sister was created in the hours after they talked about Buell's predicament, prior to his arrest at the hospital.
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Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Fri 26 Jun 2020, 10:04 am
Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment.

That's the key line for me. Where did she get knowledge of the fact that Ruth did indeed have curtain rods in storage that she might give to someone else?

I don't doubt that nothing was said the night before about Lee arriving "early". No need to - not if Oswald was actually living there as I think he may have been.

And what is it about Linnie and Ruth and afternoon grocery shopping?

Mrs. PAINE - You must remember I was shopping when he arrived on the afternoon of the 4th.


Mr. JENNER - Let's proceed with the 21st. Did anything occur on the 21st with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?

Mrs. PAINE - I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him.


_____________

It's not as if either had to go shopping "after work". They were both housewives (except for Ruth's summer school of Languages where she tutored future actors one-on-one in Russian at her home (and let them go off with Lee to the barber shop).

But back to those curtain rods. Elsewhere on this board, I have shown that Ruth and Lee were in Oak cliff on Saturday Nov 15 outside an apartment house. On that same day, Ruth had been phoning about hiring a washing machine for Marina. I think Lee did have an apartment lined up and that - who knows - maybe it needed curtains hung? Linnie did did not just say "curtains" - she specified curtains that were owned by Ruth and being given to Lee (and Marina). That discussion need not have had any connection to arriving on a Thursday (especially if he lived there). That discussion may have been about Lee and Marina moving out and getting there own place in Oak Cliff.

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Fri 26 Jun 2020, 12:40 pm
Linnie seems to have done a lot to throw Lee under the bus. But why? Was it just to save her brother? Or could there be a more sinister reason? She seems quite a suspicious character.

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