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Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

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frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 Empty Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Tue 22 Sep 2009, 11:12 pm
First topic message reminder :

BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER

Whose line is it anyhow?

Which School Book Depository (TSBD) employee stated that on November 22nd, 1963, he:

1. took a sandwich and piece of fruit for lunch in a brown paper bag and that it sat beside him during the ride to work?

2. ate lunch alone that day?

3. left the building after eating lunch because it didn't seem like any further work would be done and he therefore decided to take the afternoon off?

If you answered Lee Harvey Oswald to the first question, you would be correct. More than one of his interrogators recalled him saying this. If you answered Buell Wesley Frazier, you'd also be correct. He made this claim during testimony.

If you answered Lee Harvey Oswald to the 2nd question, you would be correct, according to at least Special Agent Bookhout. If you answered Buell Wesley Frazier, you would also be correct, per his testimony.

If you answered Lee Harvey Oswald to the third question, you would be correct, again according to some of his interrogators. If you answered Buell Wesley Frazier, you would also be correct - for that, in substance, is what he told Historian William Manchester in 1964.[1]

Which TSBD employee broke normal routines on that same day?

If you answered Lee Harvey Oswald, you would be correct. He came to work that day with Frazier from Irving after breaking normal routine and arriving at the Paine residence on the Thursday after work instead of Friday. If you answered Buell Wesley Frazier, you would also be correct. He testified before the Warren Commission that he usually ate lunch in the first floor Domino room, and on rare occasion, in the 2nd floor lunch room, but on that day, he ate alone in the basement.[2] He also testified that when Oswald rode with him to work, they would walk over to the building together from the car park, but on November 22, he decided to stay in his old Chevy to watch the rail cars being switched and run his engine "to charge up [his] battery". Oswald, who had walked on ahead, stopped and waited, then resumed walking when he noticed Frazier getting out. However, Frazier continued to dawdle watching the trains, allowing Oswald to get further and further away from him.

From Huntsville
Frazier arrived from Huntsville, 200 miles south of Dallas during early September and moved in with his sister, Linnie Mae Randle, her husband, Bill, and their three kids. The residence, at 2439 West Fifth St, Irving, was owned by Bill Randle's father. The Paine residence was only half a block away. Frazier testified that the reason for his move was to find employment, and that after having no success on his own, he signed up with several employment agencies. He further testified that he was phoned about the position at the TSBD by the Massey Employment Agency, and as a result, attended an interview with Roy Truly on September 13, commencing work the same day.

It seems incredible that there is nothing in the records indicating the Massey Employment Agency was contacted to confirm the referral.[3] It should have seemed important to have this cleared up given that Buell’s story is in conflict with the testimony of his sister who told the commission that she had helped her brother search for work, because as a local, she knew all the places that "someone with, you know, not very much of an education can find work." The help she gave consisted of listing all such places. It was apparently as a result of that success, a similar list was made for Oswald. If Buell had found the job through an agency, the logical thing to do would have been to recommend that agency to Oswald. No such recommendation appears to have been made.

A whole mess of trouble
By the evening of the assassination, Frazier was in danger of being implicated in the crime. He was located at the Irving Professional Center visiting his step-father, David Williams - a patient at the clinic - and taken into custody by Det. McCabe of Irving Police. He was then picked up by Dallas police and taken to the clinic where his car was examined.

From there, he was driven to his sister's home where a search uncovered an Enfield rifle with scope and full clip and a partial box of ammunition.[4] Soon afterwards, Linnie Mae arrived home, and she and Frazier - accompanied by a Baptist preacher referred to as Rev. Campble [sic], were taken to Police Headquarters at City Hall for questioning.[5]

The polygraph
Buell and Linnie Mae were questioned by police until 9:00 pm, at which time their affidavits were taken. After this was done, Detectives Rose and Stovall were driving them back to Irving when a call came through to return them to City Hall. Upon arrival, Rose phoned Captain Fritz who ordered that Frazier be polygraphed. By the time the Crime Lab's RD Lewis arrived to administer the test, it was 11:20. The test concluded at 12:10am. [6] According to the combined report of Rose, Stovall and Adamcik, the test "showed conclusively that Wesley Frazier was truthful".

But was a proper polygraph test actually administered, or was it a prop to get Frazier's future cooperation on the bag alleged to have been carried that morning by Oswald? The affidavit itself gives no detail on the bag except approximate length and that it was folded. What would be required later would be an admission it resembled the bag found in the building.

Between Lewis' arrival time and the time the test was completed, only fifty minutes had elapsed. This seems woefully inadequate when one considers a pre-test interview is standard protocol. On top of that, time was also required to write the questions, including the so-called "control" questions. All this, plus the test in 50 minutes hardly seems possible.

Officially, only Rose and Stovall witnessed the test. However, according to Jim Bishop's 1968 book , The Day Kennedy Was Shot, there were five other officers in the room and doorway apart from Lewis, and the young man at the center of the attention was in a state of near hysteria.

By contrast, Rose, interviewed for Larry Sneed's book, No More Silence claimed to view the test through a one-way mirror. He told Sneed that though "it wasn't an ideal situation for a polygraph... it wasn't necessarily bad either because Wesley was a straight guy. He seemed totally straight forward and passed the test with flying colors."

If such a test was actually conducted with Frazier passing it, why has there never been a report produced by Lewis? After extensive searching, the only report found where Lewis is said to have stated he performed such a test, is page 291 of Commission Document 7, which is an interview of Lewis conducted by FBI Special Agent, Vince Drain on November 29, 1963. And what an interesting interview it was.

The FBI takes over the handling of Frazier
On December 1, (the same day that Drain interviewed Lewis) Bardwell ("Bob") Odum and Gibbon McNeely interviewed Frazier at his place of residence. During the interview, Frazier showed them where the bag extended to when he saw it on the back seat of his car. This measured 27 inches - three inches more than the estimate he had given police. An improvement. Frazier then repeated what he'd said during his polygraph - that at the time he saw it being carried by Oswald, he'd concluded that the package was wrapped "in a cheap, crinkly, thin paper sack, such as that provided by 5 and 10 cent stores". But this time, he added that reflecting upon the matter, he realized that he'd reached this conclusion when he'd observed the package under Oswald's arm as Oswald was turned with his back to him. Odum, using a replica sack made from material at the TSBD, reconstructed the scene, which showed the closest Frazier had got to Oswald was 12 feet, and that the visible area of the package from Frazier's vantage point measured nine inches by one inch. He also now stated that his conclusion about the sack being made of crinkly paper from a 5 and dime was based to a "considerable extent" upon the fact that the color of the sack was a very light brown as compared with the very dark brown paper used for heavier grocery sacks, and that the color of the replica was the same color as the one he'd seen in Oswald's possession. But the FBI cannot have it both ways. By reconstructing how Frazier described Oswald carrying the bag in order to convince the witness he was probably mistaken about it being made of cheap, crinkly paper, the FBI by extension, was admitting the rifle was not inside the bag, as the broken down Mannlicher-Carcano is simply far oo long to be carried in that manner. On the other hand, if they had insisted Oswald carried the bag in some other way, then they would have had no basis to suggest Frazier's initial description was inaccurate. In any case, Frazier had seen Oswald's bag up close inside the car.

The Federal agents also had with them, the original. This sack, too - said to be stained from fingerprint testing, was shown to Frazier who agreed that if it had been the same color as the replica, it may well have been the bag Oswald carried. As a final word, he added that he felt he was in "no position to definitely state that this was or was not the sack."[7] No position, indeed. The fact is, if the bag Frazier saw had been the same color as the replica, it was unlikely that he saw the bag in evidence. The commissions own experts had testified that the two bags were different in color – even prior to the discoloration to the original.

LINNIE MAE RANDLE

Denial
Ruth Paine testified that Linnie Mae had said “they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked." Despite Linnie Mae's denial in her own testimony that she was aware of any possible vacancy, the Warren Commission Report went with Ms Paine's version, flatly stating, "One of the neighbors present, Linnie Mae Randle, said that her brother had recently been hired as a schoolbook order filler at the Texas School Book Depository and she thought that the depository might need additional help."

Multitasking
On the morning of Friday, November 22, 1963, when Linnie Mae saw Oswald, she was

1. having coffee after getting up early (WC testimony of Det. John Adamcik, recalling his conversation with Linnie Mae on the afternoon of the assassination)

2. at the sink preparing lunch for Buell (WC testimonies of Buell Frazier and Linnie Mar Randle)

3. washing dishes (Linnie Mae to author Jim Bishop in 1968)

Suspicion
Detectives Rose, Stovall and Adamcik, along with three county officers, arrived at the Paine residence between 3:00pm and 3:30pm. At approximately 3:45pm, Michael Paine arrived. At some point after this, Adamcik accompanied Ruth Paine to the house of a neighbor to arrange care for the children so that Ruth and Marina could be taken to City Hall. On their way back, Linnie Mae drove up to the house, and was asked by Adamcik if she knew anything about what had happened, and if she knew Oswald [8] In response, she informed him that her brother, Wesley Frazier, took Oswald to work that morning, and that she had seen him (Oswald} carry something over to her brother's car and put it in the back. The object was long, and wrapped in paper or a box. According to Adamcik, she thought this was suspicious. She then told Adamcik that her brother could be reached at Parkland Hospital where he was visiting his step-father [9]

Under questioning during testimony, he also recalled that she'd told him it was unusual for Oswald to be at the Paine's residence on a Thursday; that in the past, he'd always arrived on the Friday and stayed the weekend.

In an interview with the FBI, Linnie Mae stated that she had seen Oswald arrive with Buell on the Thursday and had asked Frazier about this change of routine. Her brother, she said, had replied that Oswald had come over a day early to pick up curtain rods for his apartment. She repeated this story before the Commission.

None of this however, was mentioned in her statement made for the police on the night of the assassination. If this conversation did take place between brother and sister, then Linnie Mae had no reason at all to be suspicious after seeing Oswald the next morning with a long package. Nor did she have any reason to believe there was anything "unusual" about Oswald being at the Paine home a day early. But her dramatic arrival at the Paine residence to impart her "suspicion" to police is no more remarkable than Ruth Paine's greeting to detectives Rose and Stovall, "Come on in, we were expecting you. Just as soon as we heard where it happened, we figured someone would be out." Or, for that matter, Michael Paine's sudden arrival at 3:45 after apparently coming to a similar conclusion to his wife.

The search for Frazier
Linnie Mae's discussion with Adamcik was what now made Frazier a potential suspect as an accomplice. Shortly after the detectives arrived back at City Hall at 6:00pm with the Paines and Marina, they contacted Parkland Hospital and discovered that Frazier was not there. They then rang around all the clinics in Irving, finally locating him at the Irving Professional Center.

As previously shown, the police eventually took Frazier home in order to conduct a search of the property. At some point, Linnie Mae arrived, and she, Frazier and the Rev Campble, along with Frazier's Enfield and other evidence, were taken to City Hall. It was now around 9:00pm. After giving her affidavit, Linnie Mae was shown "some brown package paper", but was unable to confirm it was "identical" to the package Oswald had carried due to having only seen that package from a distance through her window.[10]

The FBI takes over the handling of Randle
On the same day that Special Agents Odum and McNeely called on Frazier, they also put Linnie Mae through her paces, recreating what she claimed she'd witnessed.

Observing the replica bag, she stated it was the same heavy grade type of paper that Oswald's sack was constructed from. Shown the original bag, she stated if it had been the same color as the replica, it could have been the bag she observed.[11] Amusingly, the FBI, used three pieces of pressed board to "bulk" up the package to Linnie Mae's specification, solemnly declaring in August, 1964, that "when the case is closed these pieces of pressed board will be destroyed".[12] I wonder if they still have them?

Neighbors saw nothing
December 1st was a busy day for Odum and McNeely. They also interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider, Mrs Mary Ponder, Mr and Mrs Victor Embry, Mrs James Goodwin, Mr and Mrs James Williams, and Mr and Mrs Ed Roberts. All were neighbors of the Paines and Randles. None had seen Oswald as he trudged over from the Paine residence to the Randle house on the morning of the assassination - carrying a long, bulky package or otherwise.[13] This begs the question though, as to why Oswald would risk being seen by neighbors carrying the package which, according to police, resembled a rifle case - especially if he intended using it for assassinating Kennedy later that day. One possible answer (but by no means the only) can be found in what Harry Holmes and Gus Rose said to author Larry Sneed during interviews for the book, No More Silence.

Holmes: Oswald told Fritz that the curtain rods weren't for his room, he had brought them in for a co-worker who needed some. Although some accounts say Oswald told Fritz the bag contained his lunch, he in fact told Fritz (in Holmes' presence) that the bag contained curtain rods for a co-worker.

Rose: Frazier said he didn't think the package had contained curtain rods. He suggested that Oswald leave it in the car, but Oswald refused, saying "No, I need it here." [14] If Oswald had such a package, and did "need it here [inside the TSBD]", it might indicate it contained a rifle he planned to use later with deadly intent. It may also indicate that it was curtain rods he was bringing in for an unknown fellow employee. In that regard, Holmes and Rose may just have independently corroborated each other.

The car door conundrum
In her very first statement on what she had witnessed, Linnie Mae made no mention of which car door Oswald had placed his package. She merely stated, "I saw him put it in Wesley's car". In her FBI statement made the following day, she declared she had seen him place it "in the back seat area".

By the time the FBI reinterviewed her on Dec 1, she was able to go into more detail, saying that she had seen Oswald open "the right rear door of the car" and, presuming he was getting in, turned to go back to the sink "after" hearing the car door being shut.

It was during her March 11, 1964 testimony before the Warren Commission that she finally admitted the truth. After initially repeating her earlier claims of seeing Oswald place the package in the right back seat area, she was drawn back to it later under questioning by Senator Cooper. To Cooper, she responded, "what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched it in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked". [15] In other words, she did not see Oswald place the package in the right back seat area of the car. It was an assumption on her part. Other evidence presented here suggests either Oswald carried it in his lap the whole way – as had been the case previously, or he initially carried it that way but then threw it in the backseat at Frazier’s suggestion.

WILLIAM ("BILL") EDWARD RANDLE

Business in Austin

Neither Linnie Mae nor Buell Frazier were asked during testimony if Bill Randle was home on the morning of Friday, November 22, 1963. His only recorded whereabouts on that day is at the Austin Motel in Austin. And only then because of a tip to the FBI from the motel manager.

Mrs John O Thompson phoned the Austin FBI office on November 23 to inform them that Randle had arrived at about 7:00pm the previous day with a man named Berry J Caster driving a Chevy pick up. The report goes on to say, "they both claimed to be employees of the Irving Counter Top Company", and that he had a "personal acquaintanceship" with Oswald, the extent of which was not discussed.

According to Mrs Thompson, Randle said his wife worked at the same building as Oswald, and also told her of rumors that had circulated in Dallas that Kennedy would be shot when he came "on account of the Veteran's Administration Offices being moved out of Dallas".

At about 7:30pm, Randle attempted to contact Marvin Randle in Irving, but was unsuccessful, though he did get through in a later attempt, learning that his wife had been called in for questioning concerning the assassination. On receiving this news, he checked out of the motel and caught a flight back to Dallas at 11:05pm. Caster checked out at 7:00am the following morning and drove the Chevy back to Irving.[16]

This report was not followed up until January 21 when Randle was interviewed by Special Agent Warren de Brueys. Randle advised that the trip to Austin was in connection with his employment for Irving Counter Top, that the business was owned by his brother, Marvin, and it was purely a business matter that had prompted his call to his brother. He denied any knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald, had never even seen him except in newspapers after the assassination, and said he could not recall making any statement that Kennedy would be killed because of the Veteran's Offices being moved out of the city.[17] Notably absent in the report is what time he left Irving that day (it is about a 3 hour drive, so the latest he could have left to arrive at 7:00pm is about 4:00pm); what time he arrived home after his flight; and whether Berry Caster was related to Warren Caster who had been displaying rifles in the TSBD two days before the assassination.

The rifle scope
There is a Secret Service document dated December 3, 1963 pertaining to the California investigation of the rifle scope inscribed Ordnance Optic, Inc, Hollywood, California and mounted on the Mannlicher-Carcano allegedly used in the assassination. What is interesting about this document is that no company by that name was located in Hollywood. Instead, they checked out two other optics businesses listed in the phone directory - the first of which was found to now be a phonographic warehouse. The second one was Gordon Optics Supply and Optics Industries. The owner, Murray Gordon, was contacted and interviewed. Despite stating that his business was only involved in importing eye glass frames, the files were nevertheless checked for two names. The first name unsurprisingly, was Lee H Oswald - the other was Willy Randall. Neither name was found. Next, based on a tip from Lt Manuel Pena of the Robbery Division that the Retting Gun Shop dealt in telescopic sights, the owner, Martin Retting, was interviewed. Retting revealed that he was the sole importer from Japan of the sights inscribed "Ordnance Optics, Inc", as they were much used in hunting. He further advised that he had sold them mainly to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, though he had also sold a quantity to Dave's House of Guns in Dallas. Retting however, was of the opinion that Oswald probably brought his scope with the rifle from Klein's as they usually sold them as a package. Rettings' records were also checked for the names, Oswald and Randall. [18] It seems that Rettings' advice that Klein's was the likely source of the scope was all too readily accepted as Dave's House of Guns was only checked out in regard to the Smith & Wesson pistol.

Was "Willy Randall" actually "William Randle?
The answer is almost certainly yes. Firstly, Linnie Mae is referred to as "Mrs Bill Randall" in several documents. Secondly, at least one FBI report refers to Bill Randle as a "suspect" after the tip was received from Austin. Fair enough. The question is, why, among all possible accomplices, Randle was being investigated specifically (and only) in regard to the rifle scope? But that is just one of many, many questions that remain unanswered in regard to Frazier, Linnie Mae Randle and husband, Bill.


ENDNOTES
[1] Death of a President by William Manchester, p. 355 of the paperback edition

[2] He would not repeat the slip (if that is what it was) at the Shaw trial, claiming there that he always ate in the basement.

[3] The agency was in Irving according to a Dallas researcher who did some checking on my behalf.

[4] Stovall Commission Exhibit C.

[5] Ibid

[6] Ibid

[7] Warren Commission Exhibit 2009

[8] Warren Commission testimony of John Adamcik. Adamcik gave the time of arrival at the Paine's front door as a few minutes after 3:00pm. The joint report of Rose, Stovall and Adamcik - designated Stovall Exhibit C by the Commission, gave the time as approximately 3:30pm.

[9] Stovall Commission Exhibit C.

[10] FBI report on November 23 interview with Linnie Mae Randle by James Bookhout - File # DL 89-43. It is entirely unclear in this report whether the "package paper" shown to Randle was the bag now in the archives, a replica, or just sample paper taken from the book depository building. The subject was not broached during her testimony.

[11] FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 211 p 115.

[12] Warren Commission Exhibit 2008

[13] Commission Document 7, p 98

[14] alt.assassination newsgroup post by Martin Shakleford, November 5, 2007.

[15] This problem with Linnie Mae's statements on seeing the package being placed in the car was noted in a Lancer forum post made by researcher, Ian Lloyd on October 26, 2007. Lloyd also cited the photo exhibits of the Randle home and carport as strongly indicating Linnie Mae could not have seen all that she had claimed.

[16] FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 84, p 98. Mrs Thompson was likely confused about Randle's wife working at the same place as Oswald. He had most likely told her that his wife's brother did. This misstatement seems to have led to Linnie Mae Randle's name being hand written under the typed list of TSBD employees who had their details taken as they left the building on the afternoon of the assassination. The name was subsequently crossed out.

[17] Id. at p 99

[18] Post made to the Education Forum by researcher Mark Knight, May 27, 2006 citing CE 1331. Manuel Pena had been working for the Dodd Committee investigating mail order weapons. One of the companies under scrutiny had been Klein's. Pena would later have in involvement in the RFK investigation.


CORRIGENDUM

Cite 14
The correct (and complete) quote from Sneed's book is “Somebody in the room at that point asked him what was in the paper bag that he had the next morning when he rode to work with another employee. ‘Well, that was my lunch’. That’s what he told us. ‘Your lunch? Why did you carry a lunch in a big old bag like that’?Well’, he said ‘you don’t always get a bag that just fits your lunch; you take what you can get.’ He was that quick, no mincing around, no trying to make up something. He was then asked, ‘Well, where did you carry it’? ‘I carried it in my lap.’ he said, ‘just like I always carry my lunch’ and the driver said, ‘Throw it over in the back seat’. That’s what he said about it! According to the man who drove him to work the next day he had a rather long brown paper wrapper which might have been a bag. The driver asked him, ‘What’s that?’ as Oswald threw it over the back seat. Oswald told him, ‘That’s some curtain rods.’ I’ve noticed in some of the literature that it was for his room, but he told Captain Fritz previously that it was curtain rods which he was bringing because he didn’t need them. As they were getting out of the car, he supposedly said that the curtain rods were for a fellow at work. In short, Homes was quoting Frazier - not Oswald - in reference to having brought curtain rods for a fellow worker.


Last edited by greg parker on Sat 30 Jan 2010, 8:09 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : format)

Colin_Crow
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frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Fri 19 Jun 2020, 5:47 pm
According to the WC testimonies of Frazier and Randle there was conversation between the two about Oswald coming home to Irving to pick up curtain rods on Thursday evening. This appears to be totally contrived to me and an attempt to bolster Frazier's credibility. Ie it didn’t happen. This is why there is no mention of curtain rods by Adamcik, Rose or Stovall about the events that afternoon. It Linnie May knew of the curtain rods why did she not tell Adamcik of them when referring to the mysterious package?

There were a number of calls from Dallas to the Paine's that afternoon. Some to and from Fritz's office and some from Decker's. As the bag was in evidence just after 3pm I strongly suspect that the officers at the Paine’s would have been told to ask whether any of them saw Oswald with a long bag that morning. Could it be that the bag discussion with Randle was instigated by one of the cops? Linnie May was obviously worried about her brother. They had likely been communicating about his worsening predicament for hours that afternoon. Linnie May might have thought it best to "remember" Oswald with a rifle containing bag. It would then associate only Oswald as transporting a rifle. She would then have time to relate to Buell of a bag that she had informed police of about an hour before.

Maybe Oswald did carry a bag, maybe not but the Frazier/Randle story that afternoon is worth investigating as they were definitely hiding something. And the cops went along with some of it by trying to claim they talked to Ruth and Marina about an hour later than they really did.
Colin_Crow
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Fri 19 Jun 2020, 5:50 pm
PS to Greg and your family I hope you are all fit and well.
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frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Fri 19 Jun 2020, 10:30 pm
Colin Crow wrote:PS to Greg and your family I hope you are all fit and well.
Colin, yes mate. Thanks for the thought.

The better half has been working from home. Looks like that is going to end up a permanent arrangement. And the boys are about to go for their L plates.

It's a deadly combination -- a perfect storm.

Importantly though, the dog still talks to me, even if only to remind me it's his dinner time. 

Hope you're enjoying retirement in these Bran Nue Daes.

_________________
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-----------------------------
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frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Sat 20 Jun 2020, 11:02 am
greg parker wrote:Mick,

this is what I think... those rods were given to the Oswald's to use if needed when they found a place. Lee wrapped them in Junie's blanket, still also wrapped in the brown paper. The rods were moved around out of the way by Mike between March 63 and whatever date they were given to the Oswald's and the package was wrapped in the blanket. After that, Mike probably moved the blanket/package once or twice out of his way.

As shown on the  Washing Machine Conspiracy thread, Ruth was in Oak Cliff with Lee on Saturday the 15th looking at an apartment and phoning about rental of a washing machine. Was Oswald planning on taking apartment from the following weekend? Did it need rods and curtains? 

I think perhaps it may have been mentioned to Buell that week or the previous that he might be bringing in curtain rods one day. Friday the 22nd may well have been the day he was going to. Except that when he went to grab them, they were not where he had left them. Ruth had placed them up on high shelf (where they remained until at least the day that the WC paid a visit to the garage to look at them.

So... Lee departs without them. He could not be allowed to take them because they would then be found at the book depository and confirm he took those and not a rifle. But with no curtain rods at the TSBD or left in Buell's car (which was thoroughly searched), he can now be said to have carried anything they want of a similar length. He can also made out to be a liar by having him disclaim the curtain story (actually, he is quoted in one report as simply saying the Buell was mistaken and was thinking of a past occurrence).

The only plan that Lee knew of that day was to meet Marina and Ruth after work in Oak Cliff so Marina could check the apartment out and buy new shoes for Marina. Ruth had testified that she and Marina had planned on shoe shopping on the afternoon of Nov 22 with $10 Lee had given his wife for that purpose.

I believe Lee overheard Shelley tell his wife on the phone that there would be no more work that day and so called Ruth to  ask if they could meet him in Oak Cliff sooner as he would be leaving work shortly due to what had happened.

I think Ruth has fobbed him off with some excuse or other and that they would have to stick to the original time. I think she then suggested he go see a movie at the Texas Theatre and they would meet hi outside after that.

According to Asst DA Jim Bowie, there were a number of calls about someone suspicious going into the TT who matched the suspect from Dealey. Was Ruth one of those callers? More than possible.  This would explain why it took so long for Postal and Brewer to give statements. There was a lot to be ironed out to get the stories straight.

During testimony, Marina talks about Lee reminding her to get Junie some new shoes.

It was never Junie who was getting new shoes. It was Marina. It got changed to Junie to throw off any connecting of dots. But good ol' quaker Ruth isn't allowed to tell a lie. Guild the lily? Sure. Answer a different question to the one asked? Sure. Deflect? Sure. Dance around the facts? Sure. But lie? NEVER EVER EVER.

While we are at the TT, let's also throw in this. Fay Puckett... daughter of the Johnsons, had a photographic studio opposite the theatre. Her daughter Pat Hall, claimed from around 2006 and beyond that her mother witnessed Oswald's arrest and recognized him as a paying guest of her parents. Hall further claimed that her mother phoned the Johnsons to tell them. Of course, I believe Puckett was mistaking Oswald for Herbert Leon Lee... but let's put aside.

The Johnson's claimed to have been contacted by a railroad cop friend at the cafe they ran

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.
Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?

Neither of the Johnsons mention being contacted by their daughter.

I think Fay Puckett phoned the railway cop and passed the info about who thought the arrestee was to him. He has phoned the Johnsons and then contacted DPD to tell them.

And that is how the DPD found out about the N Beckley boarding house so quickly. Not army intel. Not Oswald. Not via a reverse phone number check.
Certainly all plausible and hard to argue with most of this.

During testimony, Marina talks about Lee reminding her to get Junie some new shoes.

It was never Junie who was getting new shoes. It was Marina. It got changed to Junie to throw off any connecting of dots. But good ol' quaker Ruth isn't allowed to tell a lie. Guild the lily? Sure. Answer a different question to the one asked? Sure. Deflect? Sure. Dance around the facts? Sure. But lie? NEVER EVER EVER.



Remind me Greg why the shoes could not be for Junie, I'm curious as to why that matters. Sorry in advance if this has been addressed. 




The Johnson's claimed to have been contacted by a railroad cop friend at the cafe they ran

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.
Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?





Fay Puckett... daughter of the Johnsons, had a photographic studio opposite the theatre. Her daughter Pat Hall, claimed from around 2006 and beyond that her mother witnessed Oswald's arrest and recognized him as a paying guest of her parents. Hall further claimed that her mother phoned the Johnsons to tell them.


But what if you're right. What if Johnson while still at the cafe - after having heard from her daughter from the photographic studio across the road from the theater about someone who looks like the rooming house guest being led out by police. What if it had been her who telephoned her police friend with that news. Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and you'd have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.





It makes much more sense than any of the official narrative.

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Sat 20 Jun 2020, 11:19 am
Certainly all plausible and hard to argue with most of this.

During testimony, Marina talks about Lee reminding her to get Junie some new shoes.

It was never Junie who was getting new shoes. It was Marina. It got changed to Junie to throw off any connecting of dots. But good ol' quaker Ruth isn't allowed to tell a lie. Guild the lily? Sure. Answer a different question to the one asked? Sure. Deflect? Sure. Dance around the facts? Sure. But lie? NEVER EVER EVER.



Remind me Greg why the shoes could not be for Junie, I'm curious as to why that matters. Sorry in advance if this has been addressed. 

They could be, But what I am saying is that Ruth said Lee gave Marina $10 for shoes for herself (as opposed to June). She further testified that they were going shopping for those shoes on the afternoon of Nov 22. The logical place to do that shopping was in Oak Cliff where there were three shoe shops close together, all near the TT. Irving was still very small and I highly doubt it had any shoes stores at the time.

But Marina does not mention any of this, nor is she asked about it. Instead, she offers up that Lee reminded her to get shoes for Junie. 

Marina routinely lied about anything at all. Ruth did not.  For all that, you still could be right. It is impossible to prove one way or the other, so it comes down to who is more believable on this one issue.

 
The Johnson's claimed to have been contacted by a railroad cop friend at the cafe they ran

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.
Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?





Fay Puckett... daughter of the Johnsons, had a photographic studio opposite the theatre. Her daughter Pat Hall, claimed from around 2006 and beyond that her mother witnessed Oswald's arrest and recognized him as a paying guest of her parents. Hall further claimed that her mother phoned the Johnsons to tell them.


But what if you're right. What if Johnson while still at the cafe - after having heard from her daughter from the photographic studio across the road from the theater about someone who looks like the rooming house guest being led out by police. What if it had been her who telephoned her police friend with that news. Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and you'd have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.
Sorry Mick, I'm not following what you're getting at here.

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Sat 20 Jun 2020, 11:51 am
greg parker wrote:
Certainly all plausible and hard to argue with most of this.

During testimony, Marina talks about Lee reminding her to get Junie some new shoes.

It was never Junie who was getting new shoes. It was Marina. It got changed to Junie to throw off any connecting of dots. But good ol' quaker Ruth isn't allowed to tell a lie. Guild the lily? Sure. Answer a different question to the one asked? Sure. Deflect? Sure. Dance around the facts? Sure. But lie? NEVER EVER EVER.



Remind me Greg why the shoes could not be for Junie, I'm curious as to why that matters. Sorry in advance if this has been addressed. 

They could be, But what I am saying is that Ruth said Lee gave Marina $10 for shoes for herself (as opposed to June). She further testified that they were going shopping for those shoes on the afternoon of Nov 22. The logical place to do that shopping was in Oak Cliff where there were three shoe shops close together, all near the TT. Irving was still very small and I highly doubt it had any shoes stores at the time.

But Marina does not mention any of this, nor is she asked about it. Instead, she offers up that Lee reminded her to get shoes for Junie. 

Marina routinely lied about anything at all. Ruth did not.  For all that, you still could be right. It is impossible to prove one way or the other, so it comes down to who is more believable on this one issue.

 
The Johnson's claimed to have been contacted by a railroad cop friend at the cafe they ran

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.
Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?





Fay Puckett... daughter of the Johnsons, had a photographic studio opposite the theatre. Her daughter Pat Hall, claimed from around 2006 and beyond that her mother witnessed Oswald's arrest and recognized him as a paying guest of her parents. Hall further claimed that her mother phoned the Johnsons to tell them.


But what if you're right. What if Johnson while still at the cafe - after having heard from her daughter from the photographic studio across the road from the theater about someone who looks like the rooming house guest being led out by police. What if it had been her who telephoned her police friend with that news. Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and you'd have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.
Sorry Mick, I'm not following what you're getting at here.
I'm sorry Greg, Grammar's not my strong point.

I'm agreeing with you, or at least that was my intention just poorly worded I guess.

I think you're right no matter who the shoes were for that's what was intended that Friday afternoon- shoe shopping.

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Sat 20 Jun 2020, 11:56 am
Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and you'd have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.


This should have read :


Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and  the police would have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.

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Sat 20 Jun 2020, 12:39 pm
Mick Purdy wrote:
greg parker wrote:
Certainly all plausible and hard to argue with most of this.

During testimony, Marina talks about Lee reminding her to get Junie some new shoes.

It was never Junie who was getting new shoes. It was Marina. It got changed to Junie to throw off any connecting of dots. But good ol' quaker Ruth isn't allowed to tell a lie. Guild the lily? Sure. Answer a different question to the one asked? Sure. Deflect? Sure. Dance around the facts? Sure. But lie? NEVER EVER EVER.



Remind me Greg why the shoes could not be for Junie, I'm curious as to why that matters. Sorry in advance if this has been addressed. 

They could be, But what I am saying is that Ruth said Lee gave Marina $10 for shoes for herself (as opposed to June). She further testified that they were going shopping for those shoes on the afternoon of Nov 22. The logical place to do that shopping was in Oak Cliff where there were three shoe shops close together, all near the TT. Irving was still very small and I highly doubt it had any shoes stores at the time.

But Marina does not mention any of this, nor is she asked about it. Instead, she offers up that Lee reminded her to get shoes for Junie. 

Marina routinely lied about anything at all. Ruth did not.  For all that, you still could be right. It is impossible to prove one way or the other, so it comes down to who is more believable on this one issue.

 
The Johnson's claimed to have been contacted by a railroad cop friend at the cafe they ran

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.
Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?





Fay Puckett... daughter of the Johnsons, had a photographic studio opposite the theatre. Her daughter Pat Hall, claimed from around 2006 and beyond that her mother witnessed Oswald's arrest and recognized him as a paying guest of her parents. Hall further claimed that her mother phoned the Johnsons to tell them.


But what if you're right. What if Johnson while still at the cafe - after having heard from her daughter from the photographic studio across the road from the theater about someone who looks like the rooming house guest being led out by police. What if it had been her who telephoned her police friend with that news. Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and you'd have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.
Sorry Mick, I'm not following what you're getting at here.
I'm sorry Greg, Grammar's not my strong point.

I'm agreeing with you, or at least that was my intention just poorly worded I guess.

I think you're right no matter who the shoes were for that's what was intended that Friday afternoon- shoe shopping.
Sorry, I still didn't address why it matters. I was thinking that if she admitted she was to buy shoes for herself, that it may be too close to the facts and other facts might start coming out, but on reflection, you're right - it probably didn't matter. 

But Marina should have been asked about Ruth's testimony.

Did Lee give you money to buy shoes for yourself?

Were you going shopping for them on the afternoon of Friday Nov 22?

Where were you going to shop for them?

Did you have a specific time in mind?

Were you going to meet Lee for this shopping expedition?

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Sat 20 Jun 2020, 2:47 pm
greg parker wrote:
Mick Purdy wrote:
greg parker wrote:
Certainly all plausible and hard to argue with most of this.

During testimony, Marina talks about Lee reminding her to get Junie some new shoes.

It was never Junie who was getting new shoes. It was Marina. It got changed to Junie to throw off any connecting of dots. But good ol' quaker Ruth isn't allowed to tell a lie. Guild the lily? Sure. Answer a different question to the one asked? Sure. Deflect? Sure. Dance around the facts? Sure. But lie? NEVER EVER EVER.



Remind me Greg why the shoes could not be for Junie, I'm curious as to why that matters. Sorry in advance if this has been addressed. 

They could be, But what I am saying is that Ruth said Lee gave Marina $10 for shoes for herself (as opposed to June). She further testified that they were going shopping for those shoes on the afternoon of Nov 22. The logical place to do that shopping was in Oak Cliff where there were three shoe shops close together, all near the TT. Irving was still very small and I highly doubt it had any shoes stores at the time.

But Marina does not mention any of this, nor is she asked about it. Instead, she offers up that Lee reminded her to get shoes for Junie. 

Marina routinely lied about anything at all. Ruth did not.  For all that, you still could be right. It is impossible to prove one way or the other, so it comes down to who is more believable on this one issue.

 
The Johnson's claimed to have been contacted by a railroad cop friend at the cafe they ran

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.
Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?





Fay Puckett... daughter of the Johnsons, had a photographic studio opposite the theatre. Her daughter Pat Hall, claimed from around 2006 and beyond that her mother witnessed Oswald's arrest and recognized him as a paying guest of her parents. Hall further claimed that her mother phoned the Johnsons to tell them.


But what if you're right. What if Johnson while still at the cafe - after having heard from her daughter from the photographic studio across the road from the theater about someone who looks like the rooming house guest being led out by police. What if it had been her who telephoned her police friend with that news. Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and you'd have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.
Sorry Mick, I'm not following what you're getting at here.
I'm sorry Greg, Grammar's not my strong point.

I'm agreeing with you, or at least that was my intention just poorly worded I guess.

I think you're right no matter who the shoes were for that's what was intended that Friday afternoon- shoe shopping.
Sorry, I still didn't address why it matters. I was thinking that if she admitted she was to buy shoes for herself, that it may be too close to the facts and other facts might start coming out, but on reflection, you're right - it probably didn't matter. 

But Marina should have been asked about Ruth's testimony.

Did Lee give you money to buy shoes for yourself?

Were you going shopping for them on the afternoon of Friday Nov 22?

Where were you going to shop for them?

Did you have a specific time in mind?

Were you going to meet Lee for this shopping expedition?
It is something we could still ask her. And ask Ruth too. If they can remember of course. It would help fill in the gaps. If they had intended to go shopping in Oak Cliff near the TT that would make sense of Lee having gone to the Oak Cliff Texas Theater when work had been canceled. Possibly to catch up after the movie and hitch a ride home. It would make sense of the possibility of the group all having committed to looking at a house to rent after the shopping was done.

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Sat 20 Jun 2020, 2:57 pm
Mick Purdy wrote:Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and you'd have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.


This should have read :


Add a call from Ruth Paine to the police into the mix and  the police would have a solid reason to believe that Oswald was the man living at Beckley.
Thanks for clarifying mate.

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Sun 21 Jun 2020, 4:46 pm
CC wrote:Frazier claimed the cops came for him not long after he arrived at the hospital. Total BS.....it had to be many hours before they came for him.

According to this, McCabe made the call to DPD at 9pm that he had picked up Frazier.

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Sun 21 Jun 2020, 5:33 pm
greg parker wrote:
CC wrote:Frazier claimed the cops came for him not long after he arrived at the hospital. Total BS.....it had to be many hours before they came for him.

According to this, McCabe made the call to DPD at 9pm that he had picked up Frazier.
I am positive that I have seen the report submitted by McCabe somewhere. He  placed the arrest and transport of Frazier to Irving PD about an hour earlier than Rose and Stovall put it. From memory it was before 6pm. Can’t find the document anywhere now. It seems Linnie May talked to Adamcik just before the cops left for Dallas with Marina and Ruth. Maybe Rose and Stovall called the information in to Fritz before they left. There is the confusion over Parkland vs the Irving medical centre to consider. Perhaps calls were made while they were inbound and McCabe acted about the time of their arrival in Dallas.

Frazier's story is a mess. He says nothing about McCabe at all.
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Sun 21 Jun 2020, 11:45 pm
There is something wrong with Frazier's stories. His recollections. His memory. His ability to remember events. He has lied. I wish he'd just come out and clear things up Nothing he has to say about Oswald and his movements on the Friday are truthful. IMO.

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Mon 22 Jun 2020, 1:03 pm
Colin Crow wrote:Greg have you seen the work of Alan Ford on the curtain rods associated with Ruth Paine?

frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 904-F9107-DE7-E-4260-963-C-A98160661-C8-D

"Sequence of events:

1. March 15: Agent Howlett submits 2 curtain rods to Lieutenant L. C. Day for fingerprinting (to check for a match with Oswald's prints)

2. March 19: Ruth Paine testifies in Washington that 2 curtain rods have remained undisturbed in her garage since months before the assassination; she oh-so-obligingly agrees to allow the WC to inspect these 2 rods in situ when they visit her home in Irving in a week's time


3. March 23: Agent Howlett inspects 2 curtain rods in the Paine residence which have supposedly lain there undisturbed for months

3. March 24: Lieutenant L. C. Day releases back to Agent Howlett the 2 curtain rods he had received from him on March 15.

The glaring timeline anomaly leads to an inescapable conclusion:

The 2 curtain rods submitted to Lieutenant Day on March 15 were tested for Oswald's fingerprints

-------------not because they came from the Paine garage (impossible according to the WC's own timeline [March 15 preceded March 23!], and absurd on the face of it [Mr Oswald's fingerprints on curtain rods never even taken from the Paine household would be an irrelevance to the case])
-------------but because they had been found somewhere other than in the Paine garage.

The on-the-record scene in the Paine garage on March 23, in short, was a staged affair:
-------------The 2 curtain rods which Agent Howlett inspected in situ had been removed from that garage by Mr Oswald on the night of Thursday 11/22 and brought to the Depository building the next morning in a large light-brown paper bag
-------------These 2 curtain rods had been found---somewhere other than in the Paine garage---after the assassination"


It’s been a while since I looked at this one. Not sure what to make of it. But it seems the evidence numbers relate to the Paine rods.
The document reveals that SS Agent Howlett presented curtain rods to Day on the morning of March 15 for fingerprinting in relation to Oswald. Discovery of curtain rods in what possible location would necessitate such an analysis?
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Tue 23 Jun 2020, 12:33 am
From "You are the Jury", David Belin p242.

"Did the bag contain curtain rods?

No curtain rods were discovered in the TSBD Building after the assassination. No curtain rods were taken from the Paine home".

Oh really Mr Belin!
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Tue 23 Jun 2020, 12:41 am
Colin Crow wrote:From "You are the Jury", David Belin p242.

"Did the bag contain curtain rods?

No curtain rods were discovered in the TSBD Building after the assassination. No curtain rods were taken from the Paine home".

Oh really Mr Belin!
To be kind, I'll assume he meant "not taken from the Paine home... by Oswald..."


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Tue 23 Jun 2020, 1:13 am
Frazier and Randle testified that they discussed the trip to pick up the curtain rods on the evening of 21st November 1963.

Mr. BALL - Do you remember the night before, that is after you got home that night, that your sister asked you how it happened that Oswald came home with you
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; I believe she did or something. We got to talking about something and said, I told her that he had rode home with me and told her he said he was going to come home and pick up some curtain rods or something. I usually don't talk too much to my sister, sometimes she is not there when I am in because she is either at the store or something like that and I am either when she comes in as I say I am playing with the little nieces and we don't talk too much about work or something like that. 
Mr. BALL - This night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her about the fact that Oswald had come home with you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - 1 believe I did. 
Mr. BALL - Did you tell her what he had told you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. I believe she said why did he come home now and I said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw Lee get out of Wesley's car? 
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. 
Mr. BALL. About what time of night was it? 
Mrs. RANDLE. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that. 
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him? 
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the grocery store. 
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir
Mr. BALL. Did you think it was unusual that he had come home that night? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I knew that he had--Friday is the only time he had ever ridden with him before which was a couple of times, I don't think he rode with him over three times, I am not sure but I never did know of him arriving, you know, except on Friday. 
Mr. BALL. Well, did you mention to Wesley that night or did you ask Wesley that night how Lee happened to come home on Thursday? 
Mrs. RANDLE. I might have asked him
Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything about curtain rods
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. What do you remember about that? 
Mrs. RANDLE. He had told Wesley-- 
Mr. BALL. Tell me what Wesley told you. 
Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment. 
Mr. BALL. When did Wesley tell you that? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, that afternoon I suppose I would have had to ask him, he wouldn't have just told me. 
Mr. BALL. You mean that night? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. After he came home? 
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the store. So I probably asked him when I got back what he was doing riding home with him on Thursday afternoon. 
Mr. BALL. You think that was the time that Wesley told you- 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; after I got back home. 
Mr. BALL. That Lee had come home to get some curtain rods? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I am sure he told me that.

Ignoring the apparent contradiction by LMR about the conversation. Why was there any confusion from her regarding the package on the morning of the 22nd? She knew Oswald's purpose according the Buell.....to get the rods....

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? 
Mr. ADAMCIK. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to the house as I was coming back with--no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She (Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying with her, and he rode to work with him that morning. She told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car. 
Mr. BELIN. Did she say how he was carrying the package? 
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I know we did, but I didn't take it. 
Mr. BELIN. Did she say about how long the package was? 
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box. That is all I remember her saying.

Seems she forgot about the curtain rods when talking to the police immediately after the shooting.
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Tue 23 Jun 2020, 1:19 am
Colin Crow wrote:From "You are the Jury", David Belin p242.

"Did the bag contain curtain rods?

No curtain rods were discovered in the TSBD Building after the assassination. No curtain rods were taken from the Paine home".

Oh really Mr Belin!
Possibly Greg, but rods were given to Day by Howlett on March 15. If they were from the Paine garage, Oswald's prints would prove nothing if there were originally only two. If originally four but now only two would be interesting.
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frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Tue 23 Jun 2020, 10:40 am
frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 Med_res



frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 Affidavit-In-Any-Fact-typed-by-Buell-Wesley-Frazier-0480-002

Allegedly the Affidavit sworn on the 22nd November 1963. This affidavit is the second sworn statement taken from Buell Frazier on that day. Police reports state that the first was torn up and a second was rewritten.

This affidavit has Buell stating that Lee Oswald had told him there were curtain rods in the big sack that Frazier says he witnessed on the back seat of his car.
He further stated that Lee carried the big sack in his right hand under his arm and that the package was straight up and down.

It may have been common practice for Police to rewrite sworn statements that conveyed what they wished to have said, I simply don't know. Is there evidence of this practice? Maybe. But I suspect after Frazier had been called back to the Police department for the Polygraph test this second affidavit may have been the end result of coercion. I could be wrong, it's whether one wants to believe that Linnie Mae Randle and Buell wesley Frazier acted with malice or not when they lied about Lee Oswald having carried a large sack big enough to carry a rifle into the TSBD on that Friday.

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Fri 26 Jun 2020, 9:23 am
Just a look at the testimonies of Linnie May and Buell raise red flags regarding the curtain rod story. The leading questions by Ball are astonishing.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him arrive with Lee? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

This answer (under oath) indicates that she knew what Oswald looked like prior to 11/22/63....

Mr. BALL. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw Lee get out of Wesley's car? 
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. 

See above......more confirmation....see can fleetingly recognise Oswald by sight, as confirmed below

Mr. BALL. About what time of night was it? 
Mrs. RANDLE. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that. 
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him? 
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the grocery store. 
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir

Oh dear...Quite clear now from this response (under oath) that she did not recall discussing the unusual trip with her brother.

Mr. BALL. Well, did you mention to Wesley that night or did you ask Wesley that night how Lee happened to come home on Thursday? 
Mrs. RANDLE. I might have asked him

Ball, not satisfied with her original negative response, asks again and gets some movement from a negative to a possible.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything about curtain rods
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Ah.....now Ball, the clairvoyant, gets to the point. Is his nickname crystal? 

Mr. BALL. What do you remember about that? 
Mrs. RANDLE. He had told Wesley-- 
Mr. BALL. Tell me what Wesley told you. 
Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment.
Mr. BALL. When did Wesley tell you that? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, that afternoon I suppose I would have had to ask him, he wouldn't have just told me

Sound like a convincing true recollection (under oath) to anyone?

Mr. BALL. You mean that night? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. After he came home? 
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the store. So I probably asked him when I got back what he was doing riding home with him on Thursday afternoon. 
Mr. BALL. You think that was the time that Wesley told you- 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; after I got back home. 
Mr. BALL. That Lee had come home to get some curtain rods? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I am sure he told me that.  

At last some certainty (under oath). You can choose to believe Linnie May, please forgive me if I have some doubt. If the crime was stealing curtain rods would you convict Oswald based on her testimony?
Now for Frazier.....

Mr. BALL - Do you remember the night before, that is after you got home that night, that your sister asked you how it happened that Oswald came home with you
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; I believe she did or something. We got to talking about something and said, I told her that he had rode home with me and told her he said he was going to come home and pick up some curtain rods or something. I usually don't talk too much to my sister, sometimes she is not there when I am in because she is either at the store or something like that and I am either when she comes in as I say I am playing with the little nieces and we don't talk too much about work or something like that. 


Good of Ball to lead the witness. Seems they talked about something.......but they normally don't' talk too much.

Mr. BALL - This night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her about the fact that Oswald had come home with you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe I did

Convincing?

Mr. BALL - Did you tell her what he had told you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. I believe she said why did he come home now and I said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods. 

Now that we have heard from Frazier and his sister, (who were undoubtedly coached before their appearances), do you convict on Oswald's theft of the curtain rods?
The minimalist scenario I can imagine is that Frazier's said nothing about Curtain raids to his sister prior to the assassination. The Thursday sighting and discussion between brother and sister was created in the hours after they talked about Buell's predicament, prior to his arrest at the hospital.
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frazier - Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle - Page 4 Empty Re: Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae and Bill Randle

Fri 26 Jun 2020, 10:04 am
Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment.

That's the key line for me. Where did she get knowledge of the fact that Ruth did indeed have curtain rods in storage that she might give to someone else?

I don't doubt that nothing was said the night before about Lee arriving "early". No need to - not if Oswald was actually living there as I think he may have been.

And what is it about Linnie and Ruth and afternoon grocery shopping?

Mrs. PAINE - You must remember I was shopping when he arrived on the afternoon of the 4th.


Mr. JENNER - Let's proceed with the 21st. Did anything occur on the 21st with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?

Mrs. PAINE - I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him.


_____________

It's not as if either had to go shopping "after work". They were both housewives (except for Ruth's summer school of Languages where she tutored future actors one-on-one in Russian at her home (and let them go off with Lee to the barber shop).

But back to those curtain rods. Elsewhere on this board, I have shown that Ruth and Lee were in Oak cliff on Saturday Nov 15 outside an apartment house. On that same day, Ruth had been phoning about hiring a washing machine for Marina. I think Lee did have an apartment lined up and that - who knows - maybe it needed curtains hung? Linnie did did not just say "curtains" - she specified curtains that were owned by Ruth and being given to Lee (and Marina). That discussion need not have had any connection to arriving on a Thursday (especially if he lived there). That discussion may have been about Lee and Marina moving out and getting there own place in Oak Cliff.

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Fri 26 Jun 2020, 12:40 pm
Linnie seems to have done a lot to throw Lee under the bus. But why? Was it just to save her brother? Or could there be a more sinister reason? She seems quite a suspicious character.

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