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Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Empty Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant

Sat 05 Mar 2022, 6:28 am
Transfer from other thread regarding Ruth Paine's very likely illegal destruction of The Worker and The Militant immediately after learning about the BYP's. Hopefully the formatting is tolerable. 

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Re: New Essay by forum member

Tue 01 Mar 2022, 12:04 am
Ruth Paine destroys evidence

Paine testified that she destroyed copies of the Worker and the Militant addressed to Oswald immediately after learning about the BYPs. If anyone can come up with an innocent explanation for this I'm all ears. Even Albert Jenner was suspicious.

Mr. Jenner: Did you observe - have you now concluded the list of newspapers, periodicals or magazines to which he was a subscriber?
Mrs. Paine: I believe so. I might say that my awareness of his subscribing to these last two, the Militant and the Worker, came after the assassination. There was mail waiting for him for that weekend which he did not pick up on the 21st, and after the assassination, indeed, after Saturday evening, the 23rd, when it was announced on television that they had a photograph of Lee Oswald holding two papers. I looked at this pile of mail waiting for him which consisted of these two newspapers, the Militant and the Worker, and I threw them away.
Mr. Jenner: You threw them away?
Mrs. Paine: Without opening them
Mr. Jenner: Why did you throw them away?
Mrs. Paine: I was pleased to throw away anything I could. I just didn't want it. 
Mr. Jenner: Well, my question or query, and I think expression of surprise, is activated by what I am about to ask you as to whether you might call that to the attention of the FBI?
Mrs. Paine: Oh, I am sure they knew.
Mr. Jenner: How are you sure they knew?
Mrs. Paine: Because mail stopped coming on the spot, nothing came after the assassination, I was certain it was still coming to some place.
Mr. Jenner: But this was almost instantaneously after you heard a broadcast that a photograph of him had been found in which he had been holding up the Militant. But you immediately went to see if he had that mail and there was a copy of the Militant and you threw it away?
Mrs. Paine: Why not?
Mr. Jenner: Well, it occurred to me you might have called the FBI's attention to the fact that it had come to the house. But you didn't in any event? 
Mrs. Paine: No I didn't. 

Paine changes her story

In an FBI interview on 7/31/64, Paine was now claiming that she found out that Oswald subscribed to the Militant a [size=17]week 
after the assassination instead of on the 23rd, and also that she destroyed a Russian magazine. 

Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Pmail110Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Pmail210


The significance of this, besides the obvious, is that any Russian magazines that would have ended up at 2515 West Fifth St. would have had different readdressing from the Worker and the Militant. This is complicated but is explained in my essay. Basically, even IF Marina forwarded Oswald's regular mail to P.O. Box 30061 in New Orleans, which there is zero evidence for, any Russian magazines at the Paine home would have been readdressed from P.O. Box 2915 while The Worker and The Militant would have been readdressed from P.O. Box 30061. 

Also, if any Russian magazines were found at the Paine home dated prior to 9/26/63, the entire story of Oswald's mail would have been torched. Irving mail carrier J.G. Davis told Postal Inspectors he delivered Oswald's mail to the Paine home starting in July '63 because he never saw Oswald's 5/15/63 change of address order from 2515 W 5th to 4907 Magazine St (which was buried by the Secret Service after the assassination). He would have delivered Oswald's mail to the Paine home because Marina closed P.O. Box 2915 on May 10th and sent the family mail there. 

The DPD also recovered "Russian language newspapers" from the Paine home. To my knowledge not one has ever been seen. 

The mail forwarding issues seem to have troubled the Warren Commission. During the testimony of Michael Paine, Allen Dulles cut in on Wesley Liebeler to ask the following questions:

Mr. Dulles: Do I understand that this was, this Daily Worker was, mailed-- 
Mr. Paine: To 515. 
Mr. Dulles: To your address in Irving? 
Mr. Paine: That is right. Or Ruth's address. 
Mr. Dulles: It wasn't readdressed but it was directly sent? 
Mr. Paine: That is correct. 
Mr. Dulles: He gave your address for The Worker to come to? 
Mr. Paine: That is right. 
Representative Ford: What prompted him to hand you The Worker? Was there any preface to the actual handing of it to you? 
Mr. Paine: Yes. I think I was asking him, I would like to, I wanted to see some literature or what he liked to read or something like that. I think it was as a response to some question or inquiry of mine. 
Mr. Dulles: Do you know whether this was addressed to him in care of you or Ruth Paine or was it just sent at the Paine address? 
Mr. Paine: I don't remember for certain. I would think it would have just been Oswald at that address but I don't remember. It may have been. There were enough of those packages but I just don't remember. 

Dulles knew that those magazines should have been readdressed from P.O. Box 30061. Notably, Dulles said nothing when Paine talked about Oswald's Russian magazines.



Last edited by JFK_FNG on Tue 01 Mar 2022, 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: New Essay by forum member

Tue 01 Mar 2022, 1:31 pm
[size=17]Paine testified that she destroyed copies of the Worker and the Militant addressed to Oswald immediately after learning about the BYPs. If anyone can come up with an innocent explanation for this I'm all ears. Even Albert Jenner was suspicious.


+1 on that!



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Re: New Essay by forum member

Tue 01 Mar 2022, 3:53 pm
The worst part I think is that she changed her story. She gave very clear, specific testimony that she tossed the magazines after seeing the BYP story on TV Saturday night, and that NO mail for Oswald arrived at her house after the assassination. 

Four months later, she tells the FBI that mail DID arrive after the assassination and that she actually threw away the papers, plus a Russian magazine, a week later instead of on the 23rd. She also declined to mention to the FBI any connection to her learning about the BYP’s. 

The second story obviously makes her look a bit better, and the initial story is so specific I don’t think any reasonable person could believe she just made a mistake. The whole thing smells to me like what Bugliosi would call “consciousness of guilt”. 

Why would she destroy the magazines though? Could they have been the same issues seen in the BYP’s? What’s really weird about this is that Oswald should have stopped receiving The Worker and The Militant at 2515 West Fifth St. on Nov. 2nd, when he filed change of address orders directly with the publishers changing his address from box 30061 to box 6225. Sure it’s possible that the publishers didn’t see the change of address right away, but that BOTH would still be delivering to the wrong place three weeks later is quite the stretch. 


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Re: New Essay by forum member

Wed 02 Mar 2022, 12:34 pm
I think "consciousness of guilt" arguments in interpretation of incongruities in individual behavior are overdone. In this case, there is an innocent explanation: Ruth Paine, under the glare of national spotlight and at that moment vulnerable to being questioned as to whether she was involved in the assassination (because so closely associated with Marina and Lee), wants to show she is not the communist that Oswald was (as presented front and center in the news narrative). The destruction of fourth class magazines arriving at a home when someone is recently dead is (so far as I know) not a crime. It is not clear that she had been instructed not to destroy fourth-class mail that might arrive. I'm not quite sure of this, but I think today in the US first-class mail is supposed to be forwarded but magazines etc. no requirement or expectation to do so. Bottom line: those were communist magazines addressed to Ruth Paine's house, and how would that look in the press? So she tossed them, because they made her look bad, like maybe she was a communist or communist sympathizer. It was consciousness of McCarthyism, not consciousness of guilt in the assassination. OK, there's the innocent explanation (innocent = innocent of the assassination, innocent of any crime). The discrepancy of timing from same-weekend to a week later, motive of distancing. 

It is always possible to put someone under a microscope and find this or that detail discrepant in what they said on date y and then four months later on date z, and indeed such details can signal something going on or signal of embarrassment, but then to level the lethal conclusion "consciousness of guilt (of involvement in the assassination)" is a leap too far, not a rational necessary conclusion from the facts cited.

I am not saying Ruth Paine is perfect. I am saying she was not part of the assassination (or planting of evidence or a larger coverup), and that this micro-coverup (not illegal), if that is what it is called, of her receiving inflammatory communist publications addressed and received at her very home address, is the "consciousness" that accounts for that behavior, not more complicated than that.


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Re: New Essay by forum member

Wed 02 Mar 2022, 3:59 pm
I’ve been keeping an open mind about Ruth Paine, but this is one thing that makes me wonder. If she had given your explanation under oath to the Warren Commission instead of “I just didn’t want it” and “why not?” that would be one thing but she didn’t. Based on her eagerness to turn over anything incriminating she found in her house, I don’t really buy that Paine didn’t see the problem with tossing key evidence in the investigation immediately after learning it was potentially important. Her playing dumb to Jenner seems like an act to me.

A bigger problem though is why would she lie to the FBI and change her story in a way that makes her look better, and leaves out important details that she already testified to? You have to admit that this kind of behavior warrants reasonable suspicion.  

Perhaps the biggest problem is Paine saying that two magazines that Oswald had changed his address with three weeks earlier were waiting in the mail for him on the weekend of the assassination.

Yes lying and changing stories is not evidence of someone being a witting co-conspirator, but I don’t think we should write off persons of interest in the case who do questionable things either. I think changing stories and lying to federal agents about evidence destruction qualifies as questionable.

EDIT: The Bugliosi reference is because this whole episode reminded me a bit of Jerry Owen in the RFK case, who volunteered the Sirhan hitchhiker story immediately after the assassination, but the story didn’t hold up then evidence came forth linking Owen to Sirhan in a much more suspicious way. Bugliosi, in advocating for conspiracy in the RFK case, said in court in Owen’s libel case that Owen’s actions and statements following the assassination show “consciousness of guilt”, because he volunteered  information linking him to Sirhan, then lied, changed his story, and the truth looked to be a lot more sinister.

EDIT2: I also don’t agree that Paine’s different stories are simply a case of eroding memory or something. Her testimony was extremely specific and her report to the FBI was wildly different in almost every material detail. Is it really reasonable to believe that Paine (1) Forgot that mail stopped arriving after the assassination; (2) forgot that the trigger for her disposing of the magazines was seeing the news story about the BYPs on Saturday; (3) got the timeframe off by a week; (4) forgot that the magazines were already at her house waiting in the mail for Oswald; and (5) forgot her own testimony? The only consistent detail is that she destroyed evidence, which almost makes me think that neither of her statements tell the full story. 

All I’m saying is that this kind of thing justifies asking questions. If Paine really wanted to tell the “whole truth” why wouldn’t she explain herself instead of brushing it off? Why would she change her story so dramatically? Not wanting to be thought of as a communist for having mail sent to her home addressed to someone that isn’t her (that shouldn’t have even been there because Oswald changed his address) is a pretty flimsy motive when you consider the entire incident, in my opinion.


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Re: New Essay by forum member

Yesterday at 3:42 pm
Absolutely had she said she just tossed out those communist magazines because she felt obliged to do so with a persons mail then she should spend a few nights in the clinck for tampering with US Mail.
She should have marked them and stuck them back in the mail...or just minded her own business and turned over any mail to Marina or authorities.
She didnt.
If Lee is alive and Ruth is selecting what mail he can receive, is there a federal crime she is admitting to.
If she see's the BYPs and then throws away evidence it is beyond suspicion.
If she was questioned by police or feds then throws out mail she is most certainly guilty of a charge.

Do we have Ruth pinned?


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Re: New Essay by forum member

Yesterday at 7:02 pm
@Ed.Ledoux wrote:Absolutely had she said she just tossed out those communist magazines because she felt obliged to do so with a persons mail then she should spend a few nights in the clinck for tampering with US Mail.
She should have marked them and stuck them back in the mail...or just minded her own business and turned over any mail to Marina or authorities.
She didnt.
If Lee is alive and Ruth is selecting what mail he can receive, is there a federal crime she is admitting to.
If she see's the BYPs and then throws away evidence it is beyond suspicion.
If she was questioned by police or feds then throws out mail she is most certainly guilty of a charge.

Do we have Ruth pinned?

We need a lawyer. On the surface it would seem she has committed an offence. 

And I'm sorry Greg D, but after reading your previous posts about Ruth Paine and your obvious bias toward her it's hard to believe that you would post anything derogatory about her here. I mean no offence, but that is a fact and it would also be hard to imagine that you could remain impartial or unbiased in this thread at least to my mind.



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Re: New Essay by forum member

Yesterday at 8:38 pm
I am not a lawyer, but from a little bit of research it looks like mail destruction has been a felony since 1948 and is prosecuted under 18 USC - 1702:

Section 1702 Obstruction of Mail Generally.  Whoever takes any letter, postal card or package out of any post office or any authorized depository for mail matter, or from any letter or mail carrier, or which has been in the post office or authorized depository, or in the custody of any letter or mail carrier, before it has been delivered to whom it was directed, with the desire to obstruct the correspondence, or try to pry into the business or secrets of another, or opens, secrets, embezzles or destroy the same, shall be fined not more than $2,000 or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both (25 June 1948, ch 645, par 1, 62 Stat. 778).  A violation of this section is a felony.

It also looks like it might fall under 1703 instead, “Delay or destruction of mail or newspapers”, where the key line is:

Whoever, without authority, opens, or destroys any mail or package of newspapers not directed to him, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.

Might explain why Ruth changed her story - maybe she realized she admitted to a crime under oath? I can’t imagine the mail being evidence in a murder investigation makes it much better either. So if her testimony is accurate that’s two felonies: obstruction of correspondence and lying to federal agents. On the second matter, lying itself is not a crime, but if Paine’s testimony is accurate her later statement to the FBI sure seems to meet the standard, especially since she had already contradicted herself under oath:

https://www.pagepate.com/experience/criminal-defense/federal-crimes/false-statement-charges/

This is just from a Google search though. We’d definitely need a lawyer to really analyze it. Still though it looks like there’s a very strong possibility that what she did was quite illegal.


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Re: New Essay by forum member

Yesterday at 10:32 pm
Guilty. Guilty and Guilty.
All time and penalties to be consecutive sentences!
Anyone who wants to start a GoFundMe for Ruths incarceration? I got 100 bucks to kickstart it.

Seriously it could take public pressure on DA or feds/uspo to get them to investigate-charge Ruth.
Not that a good lawyer in DC or California couldnt get some traction.

This is huge and puts a whole new light on the quack Quaker.

Lets make this a separate thread and keep up the heat!!!


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Re: New Essay by forum member

Today at 12:38 am
Again, am not a lawyer, but I'm sure this would fall under the 5 year statute of limitations for federal crimes. Sure makes a lot of sense though that Paine would be reluctant to tell the FBI, an actual law enforcement agency, what she told the Warren Commission. That more of a follow up on this wasn't done at the time is mind-boggling.

Also, take a look at the language used in her 7/31/64 FBI statement. She says that the copy of The Worker and the Russian newspaper arrived sometime between 11/12 and 11/29 but she couldn't be sure, but says she [size=17]became aware 
that Oswald had read the Militant about one week after the assassination, because one issue of the Militant had been addressed to 2515 West Fifth St. 

Oswald changed his address from P.O. Box 30061 to 2515 West Fifth on 9/26/63. There were eight issues of the Militant between 9/26 and 11/22/63. The October 14th issue was never forwarded from P.O. Box 30061, and its discovery in New Orleans is actually what prompted the 7/31/64 interview of Ruth Paine:

Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Milita10

Paine testified that an issue of the Militant was waiting for Oswald in the mail on the 21st. Presumably this would have been the 11/18 issue if Paine had retrieved it from the mailbox that weekend. I took another look at Oswald's change of address with the Militant to box 6225 (Dobbs Exhibit 5), and it was mailed on 11/2 but had an effective date of 11/10 and was stamped as received by the Militant on 11/14. The point being that unless the 11/18 issue was mailed before the 14th (which is possible), there shouldn't have been an issue of the Militant in the Paine mailbox that weekend, and to think the magazine was still being delivered there a week after the assassination is preposterous. In addition, Michael Paine told the FBI, in the same series of interviews regarding the 10/14 issue that Ruth always got the mail from the mailbox. 

Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Mp_pic10


Thus if we accept the change of address, there were six issues of the Militant that Ruth had pulled out of the mailbox for Oswald since he moved back to Dallas. Michael also testified:

Mr. Liebeler: Did you know whether Oswald received any periodicals or mail at your address in Irving?   

Mr Paine: Yes. The Daily Worker, or is it not the Daily Worker now but the Worker, what is it called now?

Mr. Liebeler: The Worker

Mr. Paine: Would come. Ruth said he received all his, The Militant also there. I don't remember seeing The Militant there but generally, I didn't see the mail very much. She would put my mail apart, I had half my mail or more than half my mail would come to that address...She would separate my mail into a separate pile and I would pick it up. 

So basically Ruth's statement to the FBI that she became aware that Oswald had subscribed to the Militant a week after the assassination is just a flat out lie. But we already knew that from her testimony. 

I'll transfer all this to a new thread tomorrow, unless anyone else wants to start one.

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Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Empty Re: Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant

Sat 05 Mar 2022, 10:44 am
Paine changes her story AGAIN

The original 302 report of Paine's 7/31/64 interview is a bit different than what was ultimately sent to the Commission. I included the Commission report in the original post. Here is the 302 report.

Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Paine_10


Note the last paragraph where Paine corroborates her testimony that no mail arrived after the assassination. That line was not included in the report to the Commission. The most interesting detail though is that in the initial 302 report Paine said that all three papers arrived "within the previous two weeks", which was subsequently changed to just The Worker and the Russian newspaper arriving between 11/12 and 11/29. How did this happen?

Before sending the report to the Commission, the FBI put together a letterhead memorandum compiling all the 302 reports from the 10/14 Militant issue investigation. The section on Ruth Paine is identical to the Commission report, but it includes the line that the mail stopped after the assassination. 

Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Lhm_dr10

It makes sense that they would remove this line, since reading this makes it appear that Paine literally contradicted herself, giving an estimate out to the 29th for the Worker and Russian newspaper arriving, and stating that no mail arrived after the 22nd. 

Again, the initial 302 report only said that all three papers arrived in the two weeks leading up to the assassination, and that Paine destroyed them. The only real contradiction in the initial report is Paine saying that she "became aware" that Oswald had read The Militant a week after the assassination, which according to her own testimony, and as I showed in previous comment is complete B.S. 

Clearly, the above letterhead memorandum had already been revised quite a bit from the 302 report. How that  happened is pretty revealing. Hoover (or someone at FBI Headquarters) sent a teletype telling agents to clarify and correct the original LHM, which was pulled directly from the 302, because some of what it was reported Paine said didn't make any sense:

Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Tptel_10Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Tptel_11

What's really interesting about this is that it is directing the agents to contact Paine and determine the approximate dates the papers arrived and when she destroyed them. I can't find any record of a follow-up with Paine after the 7/31/64 interview, but from the revised LHM it looks like Paine CHANGED HER STORY AGAIN, as she must have been the source for the revision that it was just The Worker and the Russian newspaper that arrived between 11/12 and 11/29, and that the papers were destroyed "sometime within a week of the assassination" - since these details were exactly what Hoover told agents to ask her about. 

Basically, if anyone can find a report on FBI contact with Paine on this issue after 8/6/64 I guarantee it'll be interesting. We now have three different stories on this incident from her. To recap:

WC Testimony
  • Destroyed Militant and Worker immediately after seeing news story Saturday night showing BYP's 

  • No mail for Oswald arrived after assassination

7/31/64 
  • Found out Oswald read the Militant a week after the assassination because one issue "had been addressed to him at 2515 W. 5th St."

  • Oswald also received "one issue" of The Worker and one issue of a Russian newspaper.

  • All three magazines arrived in two weeks preceding assassination. 

  • Destroyed all three magazines

  • No mail for Oswald arrived after assassination

Follow up Interview (8/7/64?) 
  • Found out Oswald read Militant a week after the assassination

  • Worker and Russian magazine arrived between 11/12 and 11/29

  • Destroyed all three magazines "within a week or so" of the assassination.
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Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Empty Re: Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant

Sat 05 Mar 2022, 3:14 pm
I'm not sure how I missed this one. The issue was actually brought up a second time at the very end of Ruth's testimony to Wesley Liebeler on 7/23/64. This wipes out the argument of just "normal" inconsistencies in witness statements four months later. She changed her story when speaking to the FBI one week after testifying:

Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Paint_10

So now she tentatively remembered the Russian newspaper, declined to mention any connection to her learning about the BYP's, which she had already testified to, and reiterated that the papers were tossed on the 23rd. 

It's pretty incriminating that she told the FBI eight days later that she found out Oswald had read The Militant a week after the assassination instead of on the 23rd, and that she threw away the papers "about a week or so" later.

EDIT: One question I have is how did the police not find Oswald's mail that was supposedly left out for him by Paine during their searches; and if Paine personally collected, sorted, and put his mail - that he had been receiving at that address for nearly two months - on the couch for him, how the hell was that never mentioned or pointed out to the police? 

The FBI knew that Oswald was receiving mail at 2515 W Fifth St. by Oct. 31st, Postal Inspectors knew on the afternoon of the assassination and were in regular contact with DPD. Irving Postal Inspectors were across the street talking to neighbors at basically the exact same time police were searching the Paine home. Somehow though, a pile of mail including multiple subversive publications with Oswald's name on them went unnoticed for 36 hours until Ruth saw the BYPs on TV and decided to throw them away Saturday night. Shocked   Question
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Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Empty Re: Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant

Fri 11 Mar 2022, 5:51 pm
I love this thread!
Ruth will croak when she sees it.

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Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Empty Re: Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant

Sun 13 Mar 2022, 5:34 am
Ed.Ledoux wrote:I love this thread!
Ruth will croak when she sees it.


If nothing else, the evidence is conclusive that Ruth committed a crime, knew she committed a crime, and committed another crime by knowingly lying to the FBI about it. 

As Denny Zartman said at the Ed forum, she at a minimum judged Oswald to be guilty before he even had a lawyer, and didn’t think he’d ever be coming home to get his mail. 

The weird circumstances and details of the whole thing are where it really gets interesting. She tosses the magazines immediately after seeing the BYPs, yet somehow the topic of Oswald receiving mail at her house and the mail that Paine had set out for him that weekend never comes up in conversation with the police. Somehow the police don’t find the mail in multiple searches, but Ruth immediately knows right where to grab it to dispose of it Saturday night. 

Is it reasonable to think Oswald only received three magazines in two weeks of not collecting the mail? Did Paine throw out any other mail too? Had she hidden it so the police wouldn’t find it? Why lie to the FBI one week after testifying? Why would she not mention the mail to Marina? 

To be fair, none of it proves Ruth was in on the plot or anything, but it’s pretty damn suspicious IMO.
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Sun 13 Mar 2022, 12:16 pm
Agreed thanks Tom. It doesn't help her and is part of a pattern with her quakership.

She should be interviewed again quickly about the magazines.

"The price you might pay for a single false statement made to the FBI can be steep. This offense is a federal crime and a felony, meaning a conviction could haunt you for the rest of your life. If you are convicted of making a false statement, you could face up to five years in federal prison."

That along with the destruction of newspaper/magazines and that may run it up another year.

If anything this should be used as leverage.
By a skill investigator.
Times ticking.
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Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Empty Re: Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant

Sun 13 Mar 2022, 1:59 pm
So many people have been fooled into thinking that she is just a charitable, Church lady.

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Out With Bill Shelley In Front.
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JFK_FNG
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Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Empty Re: Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant

Tue 15 Mar 2022, 3:50 pm
As I am not a member of the Ed forum, this is a reply to Greg Doudna's comments in the thread Ed posted over there, in no particular order. 

Greg wrote:But the law is so little known that not even career US Postal Service employees understand the law being quoted to crucify Ruth Paine.

To be honest, I had no freaking idea myself that destruction of mail was a federal crime until Ed tipped me off to it. It seems pretty reasonable to believe Ruth didn't either. Also, the intention is certainly not to "crucify" Mrs. Paine. I posted this as an isolated incident, and am applying to Ruth the same scrutiny I'd apply to any other witness under the circumstances. 

That said, the circumstances of this whole thing are worth talking about, and there are a few major points I disagree with from Greg's comments: 

Greg wrote: As for when Ruth Paine destroyed those newspapers: her testimony says it was "after" late Saturday night without saying it was Saturday night. It is likely Ruth Paine destroyed those newspapers at some point after Oswald's death on Sunday morning. Nothing in her testimony conflicts with that, and it makes more sense.

Ruth's own testimony shows this to be 100% false. Greg is referring to the following passage:

Mrs. Paine: I believe so. I might say that my awareness of his subscribing to these last two, the Militant and the Worker, came after the assassination. There was mail waiting for him for that weekend which he did not pick up on the 21st, and after the assassination, indeed, after Saturday evening, the 23rd, when it was announced on television that they had a photograph of Lee Oswald holding two papers. I looked at this pile of mail waiting for him which consisted of these two newspapers, the Militant and the Worker, and I threw them away.
Mr. Jenner: You threw them away?
Mrs. Paine: Without opening them

Yes Paine says "after Saturday evening" but seriously, it seems pretty unreasonable to think she'd phrase it the way she did unless she meant literally that night. Jenner certainly got that impression, and Ruth confirms it in her response to his surprise over her not tipping off the FBI:

Mr. Jenner: Well, my question or query, and I think expression of surprise, is activated by what I am about to ask you as to whether you might call that to the attention of the FBI?
Mrs. Paine: Oh, I am sure they knew.
Mr. Jenner: How are you sure they knew?
Mrs. Paine: Because mail stopped coming on the spot, nothing came after the assassination, I was certain it was still coming to some place.
Mr. Jenner: But this was almost instantaneously after you heard a broadcast that a photograph of him had been found in which he had been holding up the Militant. But you immediately went to see if he had that mail and there was a copy of the Militant and you threw it away?
Mrs. Paine: Why not?

"Immediately","Almost instantaneously", followed by "why not?". I think that settles it. Furthermore, in Ruth's testimony to Wesley Liebeler she testified that she found out Oswald had subscribed to The Militant on Nov. 23 - which in itself is suspect since Oswald had received at least five issues of the magazine at her house since October, and Ruth per her own testimony always set the mail out on the couch for Oswald or handed it to him herself. Ruth then, without elaborating, states that she threw the magazines away:

Mrs. Paine: I had seen that he had received the Worker. I had never opened the Militant. I noticed on November 23 when I looked at the pile of second class mail and third class mail that was waiting for him to come that weekend that it included a copy of the Militant - that was the first I had noticed. This is after it had been in the newspaper...

Mr. Liebeler: What happened to that?
Mrs. Paine: I threw it away. 

The implication is clearly the same. When Ruth is interviewed by the FBI one week later on 7/31/64 however, she tells the FBI the same story minus one very important detail. She states that instead of on the 23rd, "about a week following the assassination...she became aware that Lee Harvey Oswald had read "The Militant" since one issue of "The Militant" had been addressed to him..." at her house. In both interviews she was unequivocal that no mail for Oswald arrived after the assassination. 

The context of this is Albert Jenner's incredulity that Paine had not informed the FBI immediately after seeing the BYPs. This is where the "consciousness of guilt" comes in. It's not that Paine was guilty of the assassination or anything, but her behavior clearly indicates she became aware that she screwed up, had admitted more than she probably should have to the Warren Commission, and deliberately concealed the facts of the incident when speaking with law enforcement, thus committing another crime that she most certainly did know was illegal. 

Unfortunately it gets worse. At the behest of FBI Headquarters, Dallas reinterviewed Paine sometime after 8/6/64. Paine now stated that she tossed all the magazines "sometime within a week of the assassination", and perhaps more importantly, that the mail could have arrived at her house up to Nov. 29th. This is full blown contradiction compared to her Warren Commission testimony not two weeks earlier. There is no other way around it. She lied to the FBI. 

Greg wrote:The header of this topic also confuses the issue. The mail-destruction law has nothing to do with whether mail is evidence in a criminal case. Ed LeDoux asks the question in the topic header whether Ruth destroyed evidence, which is a different issue altogether. Unless Ruth had been advised by a lawful authority that further property in her house not taken by police in their searches was criminal evidence--unless Ruth had been advised or notified of that--or unless she had cause to know it bore materially on commission of a crime--there is no "destruction of evidence" issue there legally. And if there was, that would have nothing to do with the mail-destruction issue, distinct issues.

The problem with this is that Ruth, per her own testimony, destroyed the magazines immediately after learning that the mail was material evidence in a murder case. If you see a picture of the alleged assassin holding the murder weapon along copies of the two exact magazines sitting on your couch, what reasonable person just throws them in the trash? 

Greg wrote:Ruth showed no awareness of legal impropriety at the time she threw out those newspapers. When asked why, she said "why not?" 

Like I said, I think it's pretty reasonable to think she wasn't fully up to speed on postal law. However, Ruth's initial testimony to Jenner was almost five months after the event. We have no way of knowing what her mindset really was at the time. In addition, despite Marina's testimony that she thought Ruth was stupid, Ruth comes off as a pretty damn intelligent lady. Should we really believe her response of "why not?" was a fully honest answer after hearing the following from Jenner?:

Mr. Jenner: Well, my question or query, and I think expression of surprise, is activated by what I am about to ask you as to whether you might call that to the attention of the FBI?
Mrs. Paine: Oh, I am sure they knew.
Mr. Jenner: How are you sure they knew?
Mrs. Paine: Because mail stopped coming on the spot, nothing came after the assassination, I was certain it was still coming to some place.
Mr. Jenner: But this was almost instantaneously after you heard a broadcast that a photograph of him had been found in which he had been holding up the Militant. But you immediately went to see if he had that mail and there was a copy of the Militant and you threw it away?
Mrs. Paine: Why not?

I copied the same testimony twice to make a point. "But you immediately went to see if he had mail..." etc. etc. Yes it would "make more sense" if she destroyed the evidence a week later, but that's not what happened. It was her cover story to the FBI. 

Greg wrote:This would have been one more such case if Ruth Paine had done so. Ruth Paine would have been condemned in vicious ways as she already has been, if she had conveyed those newspapers to Marina. It is always argued in such vile attacks upon Ruth Paine that the police in their searches could not have missed such things in two thorough searches, therefore Ruth forged or planted or maliciously created or caused or invented the things Ruth conveyed to Marina or authorities. 

This is a bit different than something like the Walker note for example. Again, from Ruth's own testimony, the mail should have been literally sitting out on the couch for Oswald but the police somehow didn't find it, nor was it mentioned while the police were there twice even though Ruth knew it was there beforehand: 

Mrs. Paine: I handed it to him or laid them on the couch for him to look at when he arrived on Friday night. 
Mr. Liebeler: But he hadn't looked at these newspapers that had come during the period from his last visit to Thursday?
Mrs. Paine: That's right; he had not been there. 
Mr. Liebeler: He didn't look at those on Thursday? 
Mrs. Paine: No 


Add to this that Oswald shouldn't have received those magazines after Nov. 14th (yes they could have showed up in the two weeks preceding), and that somehow in two weeks Oswald only received three magazines according to Ruth, and we have another problem. Moreover, Ruth herself described the mail waiting for Oswald as a "PILE of second and third class mail".  Three magazines is hardly a pile, so did Ruth destroy anything else? 

Much respect to Greg as he is one of the only people consistently pushing high-quality original research over at the Ed forum and making a serious effort to resolve aspects of the case. This is just one thing I do not agree with. Greg makes a solid defense brief for Ruth on some other allegations, but this is one issue I'd definitely take to court. Again, this does not by any stretch of the imagination prove that Ruth is guilty of conspiracy, but there are enough inconsistencies, contradictions, and provable criminal conduct (knowingly lying to the FBI) with just this one act that I think any honest investigator would agree that a hostile interrogation and a polygraph would be justifiable.

The only goal of this thread was to elaborate on the exact same suspicion expressed by a Warren Commission lawyer. The evidence, taken in full, seems to suggest that suspicion was warranted.  

I encourage anyone reading this thread to review Paine's two testimonies, her 7/31/64 FBI report, and the FBI letterhead memorandum referencing her August reinterview and decide for themselves.
Ed.Ledoux
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Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Empty Re: Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant

Sun 20 Mar 2022, 3:31 pm
Boils down to three offenses,

Deceiving authorities, ie false statements.
Destruction of anothers mail.
Destruction of evidence.

Ruth is superficially guilty of all three... of course she's innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
Thats more than she gives Lee
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JFK_FNG
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Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Empty Re: Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant

Sun 05 Jun 2022, 5:40 pm
Ed.Ledoux wrote:Boils down to three offenses,

Deceiving authorities, ie false statements.
Destruction of anothers mail.
Destruction of evidence.

Ruth is superficially guilty of all three... of course she's innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
Thats more than she gives Lee

With all the debate currently going on about Max Good’s film, I think this thread deserves a bump. I haven’t seen the film, but I’m assuming Good did not bring up this topic with Ruth Paine. 

Greg D said the following yesterday at the Ed forum: 

“What crime has she been accused of that would get a conviction by any jury in America. There isn't any, because there is no evidence she ever did any crime, no matter how many suspicions chase tails in circles.”

Like Ed said, we have three crimes here that would either get or have a damn good chance of getting a conviction by any jury in America. 

The mail destruction for one is guaranteed. The lying to federal agents is pretty darn close: Ruth told the FBI a wildly different story than what she had already testified to under oath twice, with the most recent testimony coming just a week or so prior to her false statement. Also, I don’t buy it that Ruth’s August ‘64 FBI reinterview (discussed above in thread) didn’t generate a single FD-302 report, teletype, memo, etc. I’ll look into this a bit more when I get the chance. 

The evidence destruction I think would depend on whether or not it could be proven that Ruth knew that the mail was material evidence in a murder case when she threw it away. I’m not a lawyer, but I do not think that this would be very hard to prove. Ruth played dumb to the incredulous Albert Jenner, answering “why not?” for why she destroyed the magazines immediately after seeing the BYPs on TV on Nov. 23 instead of alerting the FBI. Ruth never answered Jenner’s question, and she was obviously not an idiot, so I think it’s clear that she was being deliberately evasive. 

Greg D. and I had a productive email exchange on this a while back, where Greg wanted to know if I thought Ruth had a nefarious motive for tossing Oswald’s mail. One possible motive is that certain items of mail would have had readdressing that could be traced back to Marina’s 5/10/63 change of address that closed P.O. Box 2915 and sent Marina and Lee’s mail to Ruth’s house. As discussed in my mailbox essay, the government went through a LOT of trouble to cover up that change of address. It is definitely possible, and even likely that Ruth was involved on some level in that cover up. She was with Marina on 5/10/63, unquestionably gave her a ride to the Post Office, and may have even helped her fill out the form. 

However, motive isn’t really the point here. Considering that the BYPs were found in Ruth’s garage it’s not very hard to come up with much sketchier scenarios than what I proposed to Greg D. Hell, even if Ruth just had a moment of living up to Marina’s sworn description of her (being an idiot), the point I’m trying to make is that she provably broke the law. 

Greg has been giving Max Good a hard time for stating that there are still classified files on Ruth Paine. I take the same issue with that as I do with Greg’s statement above. Robert Reynolds, the source for Greg’s claim that every non-tax record on Paine has been released in full, (eventually) agreed with me and admitted in an email exchange that the NARA database contains errors. It is also a fact that certain records listed in the database as “open in full” are missing pages or just missing entirely. The point is that it cannot be stated unequivocally that every non-tax record on Paine has been released without verifying those records at NARA; the errors in the database should at least be explained. As an example (discussed in the TSBD thread), there’s a RIF sheet in the Malcolm Blunt archive that directly contradicts the database - so that record, 180-10086-10024, would be a good one to verify. Reynolds also told me (super nice guy) that the agencies were responsible for their own data entry, which doesn’t exactly inspire confidence that the database is accurate.

It’s the same kind of deal here. Regardless of your opinion of Ruth Paine, and thoughts on her possible motives, you cannot state unequivocally that there is no evidence she ever committed any crimes in connection with the JFK case.

EDIT: To be clear, I understand that Greg’s problem was with Good stating that there are “dozens” of records still classified on Paine. Did Good even specify that the records were not tax records though? The Paine tax records are in the ARC, and are still classified, so if that’s what Good was referring to then I don’t see what the big deal is. 

What I don’t agree with is the ongoing, unqualified assertions by Parnell, Greg, etc. that the NARA database is accurate, even though Reynolds himself, their source, has said that it is not. When I finally receive my latest document request, I have reason to believe that one of the records will be “missing” … and it’s certainly not one of the 33 missing records listed on NARA’s website. Malcolm Blunt and others have experienced the same kind of thing.


Last edited by JFK_FNG on Mon 06 Jun 2022, 3:08 am; edited 1 time in total
Ed.Ledoux
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Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Empty Re: Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant

Sun 05 Jun 2022, 7:44 pm
Agreed!
Crimes like those get convictions all the time.
She admits the crime yet pleads guilty to lessen the conviction. Likely minimum sentences.
Why doesnt she call up.the DA and Postmaster and ask?
Cheers,
Ed
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Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant Empty Re: Ruth Paine destroys Worker and Militant

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