"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[StanDane]

We won't get access to the original Darnell film (if it still exists) through conventional means. Why? Because the powers that be know the film shows—or has the potential to show—that Oswald was standing on the front steps as the Kennedy motorcade passed by. They fucking know it.
 
They're just not going there. Period. Simply stonewall any further attempts. As has been done repeatedly. It's not pretty but it works. Keep the proles ignorant and compliant. 

If we're ever to get our hands on the frames it will be through unconventional means.

[GuestGuest]

Advertizing, to be clear, is a great idea... but last I looked into it was 2013 and the cost of an ad for instance, in a major US paper was 30K - can't remember if that was half page or full page. It, it has to be in a major publication to have any hope, but that cost is prohibitive.

We can't come up with that sort of money and even if we could the MSM would be critical of the idea and brand it as yet another conspiracy theory. Generating a buzz in the JFK scene has its obstacles too as we know too well but if we can begin a motion to petition for the original scan it would be difficult to oppose even for those who believe otherwise regarding PM. I see it as a challenge to the critics. I don't much about the effects of petitions but it may carry some weight. Stan may be right about the powers that be but we can at least try and make some noise. Just a thought. BTW Greg, I don't trust a major newspaper as far as I could throw it and I was a pretty good delivery paperboy when I was 10. Could hit a milk bottle directly from 30 feet and run like hell.

[Ed.Ledoux]

Money is there Paul.
We just need to shame them into action.
By they I mean NBC Universal Execs.
KXAS VP of programming.
and SFM.

All have film that is evidence in a murder investigation.
They all accuse Lee of being the killer yet refuse a few frames from a doorway?

Are they guilty.
Yes
Could they be in serious hot water should we advertise this?
HELL YES
Are they worried. Perhaps, lets turn up the heat.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov//petition/ask-nbc-release-film-shows-accused-man-not-guilty-crime-murder-first-degree

[GuestGuest]

Money is there Paul.
We just need to shame them into action.
By they I mean NBC Universal Execs.
KXAS VP of programming.
and SFM.

All have film that is evidence in a murder investigation.
They all accuse Lee of being the killer yet refuse a few frames from a doorway?

Are they guilty.
Yes
Could they be in serious hot water should we advertise this?
HELL YES
Are they worried. Perhaps, lets turn up the heat.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov//petition/ask-nbc-release-film-shows-accused-man-not-guilty-crime-murder-first-degree

I am not aware of any money issues but if it can be arranged by generous donors and if as you and Greg say it maybe an effective method (to advertise) to perhaps move them into action or shame them then great as far as I am concerned.
I am assuming you arranged the white house petition. Can any national from any country participate? If so then I'll add my support and we should spread the word. Cheers Ed for your vigour.

[Ed.Ledoux]

Anyone with a
First Name
Last Name
eMail addy

Sign it, share it. If we make it viral...

[GuestGuest]

I've done it and we should encourage as many people as possible through every avenue available. It's a start. 100000 is a lot but not impossible. We'll ask Trump the same question when he takes over. Get him to grab NBC by the pussy.

[Ed.Ledoux]

Mocking them to death, making a big stink is only way theze guys will ever give in.

Hiw about the White House petition site!!!!

Maybe Ed but can you handle the mysterious black vans parked out on your street? 
If we can garner enough support via an online petition and post it on all the JFK websites and other forums it may just work. All those naysayers who say we need a better scan cannot refute a proactive effort to request one.

Exactly! 
Plus Im way ahead of you. Where i stay its so hot a black van will cook its occupants. 
And its such a sketchy area the van would get jacked yo.
Thanks for being proactive Paul

[greg_parkerAdmin]

 I was a pretty good delivery paperboy when I was 10. Could hit a milk bottle directly from 30 feet and run like hell.

Okay. Good work. I'm in on signing.

[Vinny]

It would be great if Oswald's family would join the call for release of the film.

[GuestGuest]

It would be great if Oswald's family would join the call for release of the film.

Agree. I guess they have their own personal reasons like protecting their mum.

[Hasan Yusuf]

It would be great if Oswald's family would join the call for release of the film.

Agree. I guess they have their own personal reasons like protecting their mum.

I'd say it's also because they want to avoid the spot light themselves.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

In any case, it would be great for those of us who haven't total recall of eyewitness testimony and official reports if someone could expand the timeline posted by Bill Kelly into a comparative one which contrasts the alternate reconstructions offered by Sean, Greg, Lee, Richard, and Colin, accounting for the movements of all these people in and out of the TSBD.  A real task, I realize.

It is a good idea, but a big undertaking for anyone.

Albert,

I started developing this theory back in 2002-3 on McAdam's forum. It was reading Baker's affidavit that got me started. The more I dug, the more corroboration I got that, whatever actually happened, one thing that didn't was the 2nd floor lunch-room encounter. Then I started looking at others like Williams and Piper... and what came sharply into focus was that the workers in that building were being shifted around like pieces in some warped 3-d version of chess.

It now appears that every single facet of this case needs to be stripped bare of 50 years worth of layering, tampering, trampling, altering, misinforming, disinforming and cherry-picking from the DPD through to James Douglass and beyond.

I think that is largely the task Lee and I are setting ourselves. If nothing else, it will result in a book quite different to what has come out any time in the past.

But I digress...

I gave up at some stage, trying to gain any traction regarding my own take on events in that building. Sean has the touch of a surgeon, the eye of an eagle and the patience of Job. He has made it his own; gone way beyond what I did and refined it beyond recognition to what I had originally envisioned as being the most likely flow of events. The discovery of "Prayer Man" would be considered overkill even in some primitive societies. Queensland comes to mind...    

That is not to say I now agree with Sean 100%.

Here is what keeps me believing that it's at least feasible that T & B took the stairs until the 5th AND that they really did encounter someone on the 4th floor.
--------------------
Mr. Belin. At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot remember, I don't know.


Mr. Baker.Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the elevator.
----------------------
Baker is saying one floor up from where the encounter happened is where they jumped on an elevator.

One floor up from 2 is 3. One floor up from 4 is 5.

Baker is inadvertently placing the encounter back where he originally said it was - on the 4th floor. If the 4th floor encounter was also pure BS, I really can't see Baker making this "mistake".

And it was a mistake that Belin quickly recognised and tried to smooth out by changing Baker's very precise "one floor up" to a more ambiguous "some higher floor" and then immediately goes off the record.

Mr. Belin.At some higher floor after that?


Mr. Baker.Yes, sir.


Mr. Belin. All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here. 

Here is my outline as it was "pre-Prayer-Man"

1.Oswald eats lunch. Sees two of Junior and Shorty re-enter the building.

2.Goes up for coke as per his usual habit.

3. Hears commotion outside. Goes to front door. 

4. Baker rushes in and asks if for anyone who works there to give him directions to stairs/elevators. Truly - either already in there, or quickly arriving, steps forward and takes Baker up the stairs (whether or not first checking elevators) 

5. LHO goes back in and is standing by the little store-room when Campbell and Reid re-enter. 

6. Lingers there for unknown amount of time and decides to go outside. Is stopped by Welcome Barnett and asked to stand aside to give his details. He does this (albeit in his usual non-conforming style), and is allowed to leave. Somewhere in there, Truly or Shelley has vouched he is an employee and also somewhere in there, he overheard a discussion suggesting there would be no more work that day - which is when he decided to go to the movies.   

7. LHO's (slightly "off") name and address is placed at the top of Revill's list. That this information came via Jones from MIG files is one of those apocryphal layers that needs peeling and discarding - whether or not my alternative is correct.

bump

[Ed.Ledoux]

The other sides claim...
https://toseekanewrworld.wordpress.com/2015/06/01/you-are-correct-he-was-outside-just-before-he-went-home/

"In examining this, one can say that Fritz omitted that Oswald said he was out front with Shelley.  Some might even draw the conclusion that this is evidence that Fritz was in on it and ignored Oswald’s claims to have been out front.  This does not hold water.  FBI agent James W. Bookout was also in the room and present during the interrogation of Oswald.  His report reads, interestingly enough, closer to Fritz’s notes than Fritz’s report does."

Really?? So Fritz possibly having Shelley's statement would effect what Oswald had said? Nah, It is selective and goes against Lee's alibi.
I am not sure this writer is aware of Prayer Man, as they make an Altgens 6 reference. (another thread is on stair witnesses)
Outdated or bad research by the author makes this claim that Lee could not be out on the steps until just before leaving work a hollow cry.

Cheers, Ed

[Jake_Sykes]

"Outdated or bad research by the author makes this claim that Lee could not be out on the steps until just before leaving work a hollow cry."


That or it's the old 'don't touch Prayer Man' approach to JFK research. There's a lot of that going around.

[GuestGuest]

To think if those guys over at the EF would expend the same energy and gusto proposing Oswald is Prayer Man rather than wasting air space going against the notion we might be closer to gaining a clearer scan. Their efforts would be rewarded in some form or another but they'd rather blah blah blah about this and about that in the hope of killing all hope of getting the original Darnell or Wiegman. That guy called Trejo is too busy making out women can't run in heels and those that are not loyal to the English language are too lazy to be trusted with anything they say. Prayer Man is going to die a slow death there out of neglect. That Trejo guy is going to make sure of it. What the fuck does General Edwin Walker have to do with Prayer Man?

[Ed.Ledoux]

Paul it is pretty sad.

Backwoods Bill can't even fire off a clean shot at me, how is he expectin' to bag a Squatch!

Claude actually followed a trail to find the films.
He got discouraged that you actually need a business to qualify.

Good luck to them,
& Bless their hearts.

[GuestGuest]

Paul it is pretty sad.

Backwoods Bill can't even fire off a clean shot at me, how is he expectin' to bag a Squatch!

Claude actually followed a trail to find the films.
He got discouraged that you actually need a business to qualify.

Good luck to them,
& Bless their hearts.

It's not a good idea you gave Claude, Ed. Filing a claim for the missing films under Sasquatch Tours will only ensure grainy suspect footage will emerge that show someone dressed up in Prayer Man suit roaming around the steps of the TSBD.

[Ed.Ledoux]

Im not too worried Paul.
The film will have gone extinct the time they get their request processed.

[Ed.Ledoux]

Some thought/s

Gerda's GIF
https://i0.wp.com/www.abload.de/img/prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif?resize=720%2C480

I see the door catch the sun as its closing.
As if someone has just stepped out like Prayer Man.

Perhaps Roy Lewis, "I stood by myself"?
Recall his statement differed from the others in asking had they seen Lee Oswald at the time of the shots, his was that Lee was not "with him" at the time of the shots.

Does the door in Gerda's gif look like its reflecting sunlight as it swings shut, or finishes closing in the brief Darnell clip.

What say ye? Yeah or nay

[steely_dan]

Yeah from me, Ed.

[GuestGuest]

And a yes from me too, Ed.

[StanDane]

Yup.

[Jake_Sykes]

Yes Ed.

[Ed.Ledoux]

That's a fair consensus

The door is finishing closing, causing the reflection, which can mean someone stepped out. If closure took 3 seconds we have no better candidate than Prayer Man.
Whom else steps out as late as Lewis? ...Oswald seeing what the commotion was!

Alternate is someone has already stepped inside.
This would exclude PM, Frazier, and those we see still on the steps.
Likely candidate would include those known to be on the landing though not seen here but seen in Altgens, ie where did they go if not inside.
May be able to narrow down the earliest employee entry, .................Otis Williams??

Anyways that had always caught my eye, that reflection/door closing...
fwiw
Thanks, Ed!

[Jake_Sykes]

Just reading the old back and forth on how nobody "saw" LHO if he was standing on the steps (and he was) so that should show it's not him. 

If you read "The Godfather" there's a long bit in there that precedes Sonny's shooting of a rival or whatever in the restaurant. A big scene in the movie of course. Anyway, it explains in detail how in executing the murder Sonny should and would simply retrieve the gun hidden in the lav, walk out, shoot, drop the gun and walk out. He should not worry about being seen by the people there. They would be in such shock and awe that looking at his face would be the last thing they would focus on. This was the way to play it, from the people who knew about those things.

So little wonder no one focused on the menial nobody in the corner of the steps to TSBD. Everyone was looking at something else at that point.

[Sponsored content]