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Randle & Frazier Contradictions

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Sat 28 Dec 2013, 6:01 am
First topic message reminder :

Contradiction Number One: The Direction of Frazier's Car

During the Warren Commission testimony of Linnie Mae Randle, the sister of Buell Wesley Frazier, the following exchange took place between her and Joseph Ball:

Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car? 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. What did he do? 
Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the package down so I closed the door?

Randle very specifically picked out the "right back door" of Frazier's car as the one that Oswald opened and placed the brown paper package inside that she claimed she saw him carrying.

The Warren Commission published the photograph below of the Randle house depicting the location and direction of Buell Wesley Frazier's car that morning:

frazier - Randle & Frazier Contradictions - Page 4 Image140

The right rear door of Frazier's car is furthest away from where Randle claims she watched Oswald from in the official photograph above.  Remember that Randle also had to look through the slats of wood of the carport to see him as well as past the other car parked in the carport itself.  The kitchen window she says Oswald waved at her through can also be seen.

Linnie Mae Randle in a March 9, 1964, interview with the FBI went on to change the direction the car was facing that she claims she originally gave in error.  The car was now facing west rather than east:

frazier - Randle & Frazier Contradictions - Page 4 Image141

The strange thing about this is J. Lee Rankin made a written request of the FBI on March 3rd, 1964, that photographs of the Randle house and of the location of Frazier's car be taken and sent to the Warren Commission.  The above photograph is one of those requested. Six days later Randle changed her original statement concerning the direction of the car.  Her new recollections now matched the photograph taken by the FBI.  Instead of facing the fence, the car was now facing the street.

But even more worrying is this quote from Frazier's FBI interview with Special Agent Harrison on November 23, 1963:

frazier - Randle & Frazier Contradictions - Page 4 Image142

As you can see, very early on Frazier claimed he backed his car out of the driveway indicating that it was in fact headed east and not west which would raise some real questions about which car door Randle claims she saw Oswald opening. Which was it?

And the answer will be compounded by Frazier's HSCA interview statement that Oswald only gained access to his locked car because one of the rear doors was broken.  But which one?  Or am I asking too many questions about a story that is just simply another big pile of shite?

Next Up: The Distance Oswald Walked Ahead of Frazier After Arriving At Work


Last edited by Lee Farley on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 8:45 am; edited 2 times in total

Albert Rossi
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Wed 01 Jan 2014, 11:35 am
Lee Farley wrote:
Albert Rossi wrote:P.S. Lee:  Happy New Year.  The ball doesn't drop here in Chicagoland yet for another six hours.

Well to give you a preview, 2014 feels much the same as 2013.

But here's hoping that the end of 2014 sees the Bears in the playoffs!

And the Cubs in the Series ...
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Wed 01 Jan 2014, 11:39 am
Lee Farley wrote:
Albert Rossi wrote:
Lee Farley wrote:
Albert Rossi wrote:
Lee:  just to spell it out for us plodding ones: the first part of your post is suggesting then that Bledsoe's call to the police was received by Olsen.

Not exactly, Albert.  I entertain the possibility that Olsen was "guarding" Bledsoe's house.
 
OMG.  The "estate".  Was Oswald the butler?

That's right, Albert, the "estate" - that Olsen in a later interview called a "ramshackle house"

The "estate" that he couldn't remember the address of, who owned it, or who asked him to guard it.  Even though he could remember that the other police officer who asked him to guard it was in the Presidential motorcade.  Later that evening Olsen would go and meet with Jack Ruby for a number of hours.

I think you have smelled a rat, all right.
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Wed 01 Jan 2014, 11:47 am
Lee Farley wrote:
Albert Rossi wrote:
Lee Farley wrote:
Albert Rossi wrote:
Lee:  just to spell it out for us plodding ones: the first part of your post is suggesting then that Bledsoe's call to the police was received by Olsen.

Not exactly, Albert.  I entertain the possibility that Olsen was "guarding" Bledsoe's house.
 
OMG.  The "estate".  Was Oswald the butler?

That's right, Albert, the "estate" - that Olsen in a later interview called a "ramshackle house"

The "estate" that he couldn't remember the address of, who owned it, or who asked him to guard it.  Even though he could remember that the other police officer who asked him to guard it was in the Presidential motorcade.  Later that evening Olsen would go and meet with Jack Ruby for a number of hours.

Harry Olsen is up to this to  his eyeballs. His injury caused by none other than Jack Ruby. Gimme a break.
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Wed 01 Jan 2014, 12:45 pm
Colin Crow wrote:My read on this is that he originally contracted gonorrhoea. This is caused by a species of the gram negative Neiserria. They saw gram negative cocci on the primary smear around the 16th and prescribed penicillin. A few days later although some improvement, he acquired a secondary infection with gram positive staph aureus (golden staph). They changed antibiotic to chloramphenicol as the golden staph was likely penicillin resistant. He also was prescribed an analgesic to relieve the pain and frequency of urination.

He did not have syphillis. Greg is right, they will normally go with best guess for treatment. To wait for positive confirmation by the lab would take a couple of days.

The interesting thing is the penicillin powder. Oral administration of penicillin is relatively new. He had intramuscular injection of about 1 million units, this is normal for someone with severe indection. The IM route is better and the powder is dissolved just prior to injection. The powder he had could not be administered by himself without syringe. If he swallowed it the acid in the stomach would have neutralized it.

Colin, thanks for the clarifications and additional info. I agree that the possession of Pentids 400 powder is a bit puzzling.

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Wed 01 Jan 2014, 1:42 pm
Ever since I read Albert Rossi's and Ed Ledoux's posts early today I've had Ruth Paine on the brain. I don't think I'll need penicillin for that. Maybe just a bowl of Quaker Oats.
 
frazier - Randle & Frazier Contradictions - Page 4 Quaker10

2013 has about four hours to go here. Calling it a year!


Last edited by Stan Dane on Wed 01 Jan 2014, 6:34 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I forgot to credit Albert here. A posting while drinking thing. But hell, it's New Years!)
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Wed 01 Jan 2014, 6:35 pm
Your killing me Stan!!! Good thing I was not consuming fluids when I saw that or I'd be buying a new monitor!

Sea Bag Free since '63
 Very Happy

Happy New Years All!~Ed
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Wed 01 Jan 2014, 6:50 pm
I was saving this interview with Harry Olsen for my upcoming book review, but since Olsen is being discussed here, I thought I'd post it:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Turner%20William%20Weyand%20Garrison%20File/Item%2005.pdf
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Wed 01 Jan 2014, 7:10 pm
Ed. Ledoux wrote:Your killing me Stan!!! Good thing I was not consuming fluids when I saw that or I'd be buying a new monitor!

Sea Bag Free since '63
 Very Happy

Happy New Years All!~Ed
Same to you, Ed and everyone here. It is going to be a good year... if Stan doesn't kill us all, that is.  sunny 

frazier - Randle & Frazier Contradictions - Page 4 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR7H4XAVygOhl6hT03RZMlFrJvvcrrOsByZ1dJGq4caCh45WhC0Sw

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
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Wed 01 Jan 2014, 10:09 pm
As regards the paper bag, I always wondered why anyone would go to the trouble of making one when the rifle was already tied up in a blanket, ready to go.
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Wed 01 Jan 2014, 10:25 pm
Hasan Yusuf wrote:I was saving this interview with Harry Olsen for my upcoming book review, but since Olsen is being discussed here, I thought I'd post it:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Turner%20William%20Weyand%20Garrison%20File/Item%2005.pdf

Interesting, Hasan.  So how much credibility do you give him in his statements to Turner?
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Wed 01 Jan 2014, 10:39 pm
John Mooney wrote:As regards the paper bag, I always wondered why anyone would go to the trouble of making one when the rifle was already tied up in a blanket, ready to go.
John,

a fair bit of what was put together as the assassination narrative has a genesis in past deeds. Some involving Oswald - some not. 

The paper bag is no different. Sorry to leave it that, but that's all I want to say for now except that off the top, the bag, the BY photo and the Texas Theater meet and greet all have precedents. Someone not only knew Oswald's history, but other interesting nuggets from history as well.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
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"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

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Wed 01 Jan 2014, 10:50 pm
Once again here the only photograph taken of the LHO belongings seized through search warrant from 1026 North Beckley on the afternoon of 11/22/63:

frazier - Randle & Frazier Contradictions - Page 4 Image181

And here is a typed list of those items that begins to add certain letters and papers not actually seen in the photograph.  Letters, passports, papers that would link directly to his left-wing agitation and his alleged trip to Mexico City:

frazier - Randle & Frazier Contradictions - Page 4 Image182
frazier - Randle & Frazier Contradictions - Page 4 Image183


Finally, here is the official list of items taken from 1026 North Beckley:

frazier - Randle & Frazier Contradictions - Page 4 Image184
frazier - Randle & Frazier Contradictions - Page 4 Image185
frazier - Randle & Frazier Contradictions - Page 4 Image186
frazier - Randle & Frazier Contradictions - Page 4 Image187
frazier - Randle & Frazier Contradictions - Page 4 Image188
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Thu 02 Jan 2014, 4:37 am
The all black ensemble he wore for the BYP is also missing. Was that ever accounted for?
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Thu 02 Jan 2014, 5:09 am
Can anyone point me to Frazier's HSCA interview? Is it online?


I'm looking for the exchange about the lock on his car door being broken.
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Thu 02 Jan 2014, 5:23 am
Martin Hay wrote:Can anyone point me to Frazier's HSCA interview? Is it online?
I can't post it cause I am a new member here and not allowed but its on this site Martin. Google Frazier HSCA Richard Gilbride.
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Thu 02 Jan 2014, 5:36 am
greg parker wrote:
John Mooney wrote:As regards the paper bag, I always wondered why anyone would go to the trouble of making one when the rifle was already tied up in a blanket, ready to go.
John,

a fair bit of what was put together as the assassination narrative has a genesis in past deeds. Some involving Oswald - some not. 

The paper bag is no different. Sorry to leave it that, but that's all I want to say for now except that off the top, the bag, the BY photo and the Texas Theater meet and greet all have precedents. Someone not only knew Oswald's history, but other interesting nuggets from history as well.

I know about the paper bag through the post.

It just makes no sense for Oswald to go to all that trouble.

Curtain rods in a paper bag or curtain rods in a blanket.. who would care?
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Thu 02 Jan 2014, 5:51 am
John Mooney wrote:
greg parker wrote:
John Mooney wrote:As regards the paper bag, I always wondered why anyone would go to the trouble of making one when the rifle was already tied up in a blanket, ready to go.
John,

a fair bit of what was put together as the assassination narrative has a genesis in past deeds. Some involving Oswald - some not. 

The paper bag is no different. Sorry to leave it that, but that's all I want to say for now except that off the top, the bag, the BY photo and the Texas Theater meet and greet all have precedents. Someone not only knew Oswald's history, but other interesting nuggets from history as well.

I know about the paper bag through the post.

It just makes no sense for Oswald to go to all that trouble.

Curtain rods in a paper bag or curtain rods in a blanket.. who would care?
John, sorry to be cryptic, but I wasn't talking about the paper bag in the post. There is a specific instance of a similar method of weapon covered for transport that I'm referring to.

I don't think anyone would care -- but for whatever reason, the three things I mentioned all have precedent - and I can't see that as coincidence - two of three specifically with Oswald and the other with a case known to Oswald. Someone had very specific intelligence on our man in setting him up.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

https://gregrparker.com
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Thu 02 Jan 2014, 5:56 am
Paul Klein wrote:
Martin Hay wrote:Can anyone point me to Frazier's HSCA interview? Is it online?
I can't post it cause I am a new member here and not allowed but its on this site Martin. Google Frazier HSCA Richard Gilbride.


It's ok, I found it. Thanks anyway, Paul.
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Thu 02 Jan 2014, 9:54 am
greg parker wrote:
John Mooney wrote:
greg parker wrote:
John Mooney wrote:As regards the paper bag, I always wondered why anyone would go to the trouble of making one when the rifle was already tied up in a blanket, ready to go.
John,

a fair bit of what was put together as the assassination narrative has a genesis in past deeds. Some involving Oswald - some not. 

The paper bag is no different. Sorry to leave it that, but that's all I want to say for now except that off the top, the bag, the BY photo and the Texas Theater meet and greet all have precedents. Someone not only knew Oswald's history, but other interesting nuggets from history as well.

I know about the paper bag through the post.

It just makes no sense for Oswald to go to all that trouble.

Curtain rods in a paper bag or curtain rods in a blanket.. who would care?
John, sorry to be cryptic, but I wasn't talking about the paper bag in the post. There is a specific instance of a similar method of weapon covered for transport that I'm referring to.

I don't think anyone would care -- but for whatever reason, the three things I mentioned all have precedent - and I can't see that as coincidence - two of three specifically with Oswald and the other with a case known to Oswald. Someone had very specific intelligence on our man in setting him up.
He has supposedly transported the rifle successfully wrapped in his marine rain coat. Apparently on a bus without provoking suspicion.

On the morning of the assassination it was raining. Why not simply cover the "curtain rods" in the raincoat. Why risk the disassembled rifle falling out the bottom of a soggy paper bag on the long walk to the TSBD?
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Thu 02 Jan 2014, 10:17 am
Colin Crow wrote:He has supposedly transported the rifle successfully wrapped in his marine rain coat. Apparently on a bus without provoking suspicion.

On the morning of the assassination it was raining. Why not simply cover the "curtain rods" in the raincoat. Why risk the disassembled rifle falling out the bottom of a soggy paper bag on the long walk to the TSBD?
A bag was found so they went with that.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

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Thu 02 Jan 2014, 10:33 am
Good thinking, Colin, and a remarkably simple observation that has never crossed my mind.

Of course it was raining that morning, and who in their right mind would attempt to transport an eight pound disassembled Carcano in a paper bag?
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Thu 02 Jan 2014, 11:10 am
Traveller11 wrote:Good thinking, Colin, and a remarkably simple observation that has never crossed my mind.

Of course it was raining that morning, and who in their right mind would attempt to transport an eight pound disassembled Carcano in a paper bag?


Apparently someone who would go to the trouble of making a bag that doesn't fit the assembled rifle. Then disassembles it in order to transport it using the inappropriate bag.  I think the raincoat was stored in the garage from memory. Frazier commented it was still drizzling on the way to the TSBD that morning. Gotta hope heavy rain doesn't set in on that long walk to the building.
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Thu 02 Jan 2014, 3:04 pm
Colin Crow wrote:
Traveller11 wrote:Good thinking, Colin, and a remarkably simple observation that has never crossed my mind.

Of course it was raining that morning, and who in their right mind would attempt to transport an eight pound disassembled Carcano in a paper bag?


Apparently someone who would go to the trouble of making a bag that doesn't fit the assembled rifle. Then disassembles it in order to transport it using the inappropriate bag.  I think the raincoat was stored in the garage from memory. Frazier commented it was still drizzling on the way to the TSBD that morning. Gotta hope heavy rain doesn't set in on that long walk to the building.

I keep thinking of the trigger and the front sight sticking out from the barrel. These would have a good chance of poking a hole through a bag even without it being rain soaked.
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Thu 02 Jan 2014, 5:27 pm
Colin Crow wrote:
Traveller11 wrote:Good thinking, Colin, and a remarkably simple observation that has never crossed my mind.

Of course it was raining that morning, and who in their right mind would attempt to transport an eight pound disassembled Carcano in a paper bag?


Apparently someone who would go to the trouble of making a bag that doesn't fit the assembled rifle. Then disassembles it in order to transport it using the inappropriate bag.  I think the raincoat was stored in the garage from memory. Frazier commented it was still drizzling on the way to the TSBD that morning. Gotta hope heavy rain doesn't set in on that long walk to the building.
But if you kept really really good maintenance on such a fine rifle (viz., oiling) and you also made a really really good paper bag to carry it in, then let the damn rain just try and stop us.
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Thu 02 Jan 2014, 6:55 pm
Colin Crow wrote:
Traveller11 wrote:Good thinking, Colin, and a remarkably simple observation that has never crossed my mind.

Of course it was raining that morning, and who in their right mind would attempt to transport an eight pound disassembled Carcano in a paper bag?


Apparently someone who would go to the trouble of making a bag that doesn't fit the assembled rifle. Then disassembles it in order to transport it using the inappropriate bag.  I think the raincoat was stored in the garage from memory. Frazier commented it was still drizzling on the way to the TSBD that morning. Gotta hope heavy rain doesn't set in on that long walk to the building.
This thread looks like it may be going off topic now...

The ad in American Rifleman and the rifle purportedly ordered by Oswald was a 36" rifle. The bag was 38" long, therefore, the advertised rifle would have fitted inside the bag without recourse to disassembling it. Was the bag "manufactured" based on the information in the advertisement?
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