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Texas theatre bust.

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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 12:49 pm

Bo Click can't be ruled out
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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by greg parker on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 1:26 pm


_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by greg parker on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 2:03 pm

Marion Meharg allegation. 
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95672&search="pw_17"#relPageId=52&tab=page

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95672&search="pw_17"#relPageId=53&tab=page

In all of this, and speaking only for myself, the solution has to take into account that:

-Oswald was indeed let go by Truly and Kaminsky at approx 12:50 
-as a result of the above, he must have left via the front entrance
-Shelley did ring someone very soon after the assassination 
-it is about a 10 minute trip by car from the TSBD to the TT
-Burroughs time of arrival for Oswald fits a 12:50 departure from the TSBD and a lift by car to the TT
-Ruth Paine denied that on the day of the assassination she knew Oswald worked at 411 Elm despite the fact that she had that address written in her personal address book
-Despite claiming that she believed Oswald worked in a different building to where the shots came from, she greeted the cops as if expecting them
-Oswald is alleged to have told Fritz and Craig that the car he was seen getting into was Ruth Paine's and not to bring her into it. Note that Fritz never mentioned the type of car to Oswald, leaving Oswald open to assume he had been seen getting into Ruth's car when in fact, Craig had witnessed someone else getting into a Rambler.
-The drive from Ruth's to the TSBD is approx 20 minutes which fits with this timeline

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 3:04 pm

Fascinating when the timing fits the claims Greg.

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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 3:31 pm

Timing is everything!

Oswald had to have had a lift to that theater. 12.50pm release from ground zero by Truly and Kaminsky. Fits the timeline as snug as a bug in a rug.

Now who had the smarts to get him there?

I say Ruth! Live in baby sitter, no need for an alibi for her whereabouts and fits in perfectly.
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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 3:33 pm

Fwiw
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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by greg parker on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 8:34 pm

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Fascinating when the timing fits the claims Greg.

Ed, I'd be the first to admit it's speculative, but as you say, it does fit the time-line very well. It also disposes of the issue as to how Craig and others could see "Oswald" get into a Rambler, and Oswald, not knowing the make of car being brought up, immediately jumps t the defense of Ruth Paine. 

If this time-line is right, then the person seen by Craig and others was either a deliberate Oswald lookalike making his escape, or it was someone like Larry Crafard who, while often mistaken for Oswald, was not deliberately impersonating him, or it was Larry Crafard and he was used as the hitman because he looked enough like Oswald to fool witnesses who knew neither of them, or it was just some innocent schmuck who looked a little like the non-descript Oswald.

Since no shots came from the TSBD, I'd tend to go with the latter.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Eric S on Sat 22 Apr 2017, 5:13 am

So, what would this timeline mean to the other events in Oak Cliff that afternoon? Was the "Oswald" seen by Earlene Roberts an imposter or was she lying?  Did a police car honk in front of her house?  What happened to Officer Tippitt if his killing was not in some way related to Oswald's movements? 
What was the purpose of fabricating Oswald's trail to and though the Oak Cliff neighborhood?

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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sat 22 Apr 2017, 9:04 am

Good question Eric,

Herbert Lee lived at the rooming house.
Mr Lee likely ran in to grab his jacket so he could hop a bus for downtown and see the excitement.

Tippit could not have been killed by Lee Oswald.
He could not have been at the Texas Theater and killing a cop. Nothing pointed to it being Oswald it was just presented that way to firm up the weak JFK killing.
Two murder cases might by volume seem incriminating.
But only very superficially.
Dig in and you will see Eric.

Cheers, Ed


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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 22 Apr 2017, 9:08 am

Eric

So, what would this timeline mean to the other events in Oak Cliff that afternoon? 




I'd say it pretty much screws up the official version big time.
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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sat 22 Apr 2017, 9:09 am

Did a cop car honk near the intersection, or another car and Earlene just assumed it was an police car that honked.
Wouldnt try to read too much into Mrs Roberts statements.

What difference would it make if a cop car pulled up directly outside while Mr Herbert leon Lee was in the rooming house, a man that would join the POLICE.
What difference would that be?
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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 22 Apr 2017, 9:12 am

Eric
you wrote:






What happened to Officer Tippitt if his killing was not in some way related to Oswald's movements?


Good question!
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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sat 22 Apr 2017, 9:35 am

Tippit was stopping to talk to a known youth.
A criminal related to the main witness.
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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 22 Apr 2017, 9:39 am

Tippit was stopping to talk to a known youth.
A criminal related to the main witness.




Good answer.  cheers
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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by greg parker on Sat 22 Apr 2017, 9:42 am

Eric S wrote:So, what would this timeline mean to the other events in Oak Cliff that afternoon? Was the "Oswald" seen by Earlene Roberts an imposter or was she lying?  Did a police car honk in front of her house?  What happened to Officer Tippitt if his killing was not in some way related to Oswald's movements? 
What was the purpose of fabricating Oswald's trail to and though the Oak Cliff neighborhood?
Hello Eric,

There was no "Oswald" for Earlene to see, real or otherwise. Her first statement, as far as I can tell, was not taken until Dec 5. None of the officers who arrived there that day noted in there reports anything about her telling them that "Oswald" ran in at 1:00 pm.   

What we do know is that the little room that was being rented was designated "0" and that a person name Herbert Lee was one of the lodgers. Let's pretend for a second that Mr. Lee was living in room "0". Might this not be written as "0 H. Lee"?

Did a police car honk? Maybe, maybe not. Interestingly, she had relatives of cops living there and Mr. H. Lee himself would later become a cop.

What happened to Tippit? He died and was just as dead no matter the reason or circumstances. For the sake of historical accuracy though, his time of death was recorded at the hospital as being 1:00 pm. The cops changed that to 1:15. I think the best evidence the murders were related is reporter Vic Robertson's testimony that he would not have gone to the theater for Oswald's arrest if he did not know the two murders were connected. Only one way he could know that - from the cops who themselves were officially denying that they had any idea of any connection.

What was the purpose of fabricating a trail? The first part of the trail (from boarding house to Tippit site) is not fabricated because there was no attempt to trace it or any witnesses to it. Never happened. The trail from the Tippit scene insofar as witness statements go, must have some truth to it until the witnesses lose sight. Then we get to Johnny Brewer and the whole thing becomes something of a joke. Like Roberts, Brewer and his partner in criminal minds, Julia Postal, did not make statements for a week or more. And Julia didn't even see anything - which in itself was magically transformed into "proof" that Oswald had snuck in. Utter BS, all of it.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by greg parker on Sat 22 Apr 2017, 11:33 am

Landlady Mrs. Johnson on her housekeeper Earlene Roberts:

from the testimony of Mrs Johnson

Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, she would just get to being disagreeable with renters and I don't know, she has a lot of handicaps. She has an overweight problem and she has some habits that some people have to understand to tolerate

Mr. BALL. What are they? 

Mrs. JOHNSON. Talking just sitting down and making up tales, you know, have you ever seen people like that? Just have a creative mind, there's nothing to it, and just make up and keep talking until she just makes a lie out of it. Listen, I'm telling you the truth and this isn't to go any further, understand that? You have to know these things because you are going to question this lady. I will tell you, she's just as intelligent--I think she is a person that doesn't mean to do that but she just does it automatically. It seems as though that she, oh, I don't know, wants to be attractive or something at times. I just don't know; I don't understand it myself. I only wish I did. 

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Mick Purdy on Sun 23 Apr 2017, 9:53 am

Greg wrote:

I think the best evidence the murders were related is reporter Vic Robertson's testimony that he would not have gone to the theater for Oswald's arrest if he did not know the two murders were connected. Only one way he could know that - from the cops who themselves were officially denying that they had any idea of any connection.




I had always viewed the two murders as quite separate, but this statement by Robertson does give pause.
Having worked in the News domain in another lifetime, I know how they would've got their tips and so forth. 


Seems timing is everything.


Robertson was at the Adolphus hotel on a phone to John Allen of WFAA station at the time of the assassination according to the FBI report.


Allen suddennly tells Robertson whilst on the phone "he's been hit" and left the phone.


Robertson immediately started running from the building out into the street toward Houston, Kennedy had already been taken to Hospital.


While at that location he along with fellow photographer (WFAA) Hugh Aynseworth heard on a police radio that officer Tippit had been shot in Oakcliff and they proceeded to Oakcliff.


When they arrived Tippit's body had already been removed from the vicinity of the shooting so they proceeded to the Texas theater in Oakcliff where Lee Harvey Oswald was apprehended by dallas policemen.



https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pdf/WH21_RobertsonV_Ex_1.pdf










There are a couple of points here.




If the FBI document is an accurate account of what took place regarding Robertson's movements especially relating to the time before he arrived at the Tippit murder scene then this report supports the 1.00pm hospital pronouncement of Tippits time of death.


It supports Tippit being murdered much earlier than stated by the authorities.


I realise the report is just that - a report of Robertsons actions, but this report taken at face value seems to contradict the official timeline for the Tippit slaying. 


It also could be that Robertson was confused about the sequence of events when he described his actions to the FBI.
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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by greg parker on Sun 23 Apr 2017, 11:25 am

Thanks for the timeline Mick.

Here is what he told the WC:

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you opened up the curtains and looked out, did you have any idea that this might be the man who would be accused of shooting the President? 
Mr. ROBERTSON. If I hadn't, I wouldn't have been there. 

----------------------------

The WC would have been well aware that the police were denying any knowledge of any connection between the two murders until Oswald was taken into custody and it became known the cop killer had been working in the same building Kennedy had been shot from.

Despite knowing about those denials, Griffin failed to ask Robertson who told him about the connection.

Would Robertson abandon the investigation of a presidential assassination to check out the arrest of a suspect in an unrelated murder of a police officer?

I would think not. but I really don't know for sure...

I wonder if the all-knowing Aynesworth was his source?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by greg parker on Sun 23 Apr 2017, 11:45 am

Mick Purdy wrote:Tippit was stopping to talk to a known youth.
A criminal related to the main witness.




Good answer.  cheers
I agree, it's a good answer.

If the cops were denying that they knew of any connection, yet Vic Robertson claims he knew there was one - his source - directly or indirectly - could only be the cops. In that case, the cops themselves are implicated in the killing otherwise no need to hide knowledge of a connection - they could just state whatever evidence they had that led to that conclusion - or even just claim instinct kicked in. 

So.. if the cops are implicated in Tippit's death, one person they could lean on to do the hit was said son of said witness.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Mick Purdy on Sun 23 Apr 2017, 2:35 pm

Robertson was at the Adolphus hotel on a phone to John Allen of WFAA station at the time of the assassination according to the FBI report. 




So the timing for the above is around 12.30pm perhaps a moment or so before. We can assume this to be accurate because of the following statement.




Allen suddenly tells Robertson whilst on the phone "he's been hit" and left the phone.




Robertson hears whilst on the phone to Allen that JFK has been hit and Allen leaves the phone. Assuming the phone call has not lasted more than a few minutes then Robertson heads out of the building onto the Street Near Houston. Has to be around 12.35 12-40 pm give or take. 




Robertson immediately started running from the building out into the street toward Houston, Kennedy had already been taken to Hospital.




Same as above. Should be around 12.40 maybe 12.45pm. Not much later than this anyway.





While at that location he along with fellow photographer (WFAA) Hugh Aynseworth heard on a police radio that officer Tippit had been shot in Oakcliff and they proceeded to Oakcliff.


My view would be Robertson and Aynesworth would not have waited at Houston for very long without moving to another location as required. No newsman in their right mind would wait there without making moves to attempt to follow the unfolding story of the asassination. Given that, I believe that Robertson had to have heard the news of the Tippit shooting over the police radio somewhere around 12.45-12.55pm. As I've said I just can't buy into two news guys just hanging around on Houston for too long after just hearing about the biggest news story of their careers.



When they arrived Tippit's body had already been removed from the vicinity of the shooting so they proceeded to the Texas theater in Oakcliff where Lee Harvey Oswald was apprehended by dallas policemen.




Its more than possible that they missed Tippits body at the scene in Oakcliff. From memory Tippit's body was noted as arriving at about 1.18pm - 1.19pm at the hospital. The drive from Dallas to Oakcliff with traffic could have taken them around 20 minutes or even longer. 
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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Mick Purdy on Sun 23 Apr 2017, 2:48 pm

The upshot of all of this is that Tippit could have been shot as early as 12.50-12.55pm. Its possible.
As Greg has noted and this is in line with the timeline presented here is that Tippits time of death was noted by the hospital at 1.00pm.
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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sun 23 Apr 2017, 3:40 pm

Why I believe it was Helen's son.

Helen gave a false description.

Helen became confused and flustered.

Helen picked Oswald out of lineup, and Lee was only one whom gave his real place of work the TSBD when the subjects were asked to state their name(?) and place of employment, the cops he was handcuffed to gave false answers to their place of employment (made up answers)
Lee was bruised, beaten, in shambles and complaining.

Helen had LOTS of help in the line up room (normally one cop with witness, partner in showup room)




Helen had this to say in 1976:

Thirteen years ago, Helen Grant, then Helen Louise Markham, was walking toward the bus she caught every day to get to her job at the Eat-Well Cafe when she saw Lee Harvey Oswald murder Officer J.D. Tippit. Mrs. Grant says she reported the shooting by calling in on Tippit’s squad car and was holding the policeman’s head in her hands when he died. After being questioned at police headquarters, she still managed to spend the rest of the day at work waiting tables. Mrs. Grant recalls it as “like a nightmare, that’s something you’ll never forget.” According to her, Oswald’s mother threatened her during visits and phone calls after the assassination. “She scared the life out of me.” Since then Mrs. Grant has suffered a stroke and says her left side still troubles her. Now married to a concession operator who is blind, she is reluctant to reveal her age, but says she has 14 grandchildren. She lives in a duplex next door to the one she was living in on November 22, 1963, and earns extra money by managing the apartment complex next to her home. What does she think about that weekend today? “It makes a nervous wreck out of you. I still feel that way.”


Concession operator, concession theft... WTF is going on here with a blind man selling concessions (I didn't know she was married to Butch Burroughs j/k  Very Happy )

I believe the walkie talkies were either used for burglaries, one for a spotter one for the inside man. Walkie talkies would come in handy to pull off a coordinated shooting also. Shaver would be to cut hair afterwards to change appearances, and pillows are to change appearance before the deed so everyone is looking for a heavy man with longer hair???
"She later described the killer as being short and somewhat on the heavy side, with slightly bushy hair."
Bushy hair... not anymore buzzzzzzzz.
I believe her son was on his way home knowing when Helen would be gone for work.
I believe Helen saw her son shooting the cop, she panicked and her son ran away.

Helen was a family member of Raymond Hamilton who died in the electric chair in 1938, and Floyd Hamilton, brothers.
Floyd Hamilton was eventually pardoned by then President Lyndon B. Johnson of all criminal Charges and by Governor John B. Connolly of all Texas Charges.

Escape attempt shows James Markham would likely murder JD Tippit and run than go to prison. Of course when James was arrested he no longer had his pistol...
Here is James and his Huntsville prison burial:
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=36482057
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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sun 23 Apr 2017, 5:00 pm

Of course if you had no front teeth, or a garage door, then the pillows are for your knees and the shaver for the obvious trouble areas.
afro ahhh no, not your fro. Think lower.


Was James doing 'odd' jobs? Or did he steal Crafard's tool kit?
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Re: Texas theatre bust.

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sun 23 Apr 2017, 5:29 pm

William E Markham
March 11, 1944 - December 8, 2016


William Edward Markham, 72, passed away peacefully on December 8, 2016 surrounded by his family. He was born on March 11, 1944 to Arthur and Helen (Hamilton) Markham of Dallas, TX. Will was born and raised in Dallas and other than nine years of living in Florida, has made Dallas his home his entire life. He was a roofer by trade, and along with his brother, installed many, many wood roof shingles. Will’s favorite hobby was fishing and while he enjoyed salt-water fishing in Florida, back here at home he enjoyed fishing for any kind, anytime, anywhere and mostly would catch and release. He was a Christian by faith and believed that his God was everywhere and to be on the water was his church. Will was also an expert chess player. He loved his kids and they were #1 in his life and loved to give them nicknames. Affectionately known as Grandpa, by the grandchildren, his family was truly his greatest pleasure in life.
Preceding him in death are his parents Arthur and Helen Markham and siblings Arthur Markham, James Markham, Mattie Markham and Helen Markham.





Those left to cherish his memory are his loving wife of 46 years, Laverne Markham; children Michelle Markham and husband, Carlos Rios, Misti Zapata and husband, Jose and Maryette Miranda and husband, Saul; grandchildren: Christopher, Mario, Cecilia, Lucio, Jose, Armando, William, Miranda, Kimberly, Junior and Jonathan; great-grandchildren: Joell, Lillian, Nieson, Laylah, Mila, Angel, Anastacia and Joseph; his furry companions: Greta, Tiger and Chion; and many extended family members including cousins, nieces, nephews and many friends that will miss him dearly.

The family will receive visitors at a Gathering on Sunday, December 11, 2016, from 3:00 – 6:00 p.m. at Roselawn Funeral Home, Seagoville, TX.



PS; NOT A WORD ABOUT NORFOLK VIRGINIA.
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