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Jack Edwin Dougherty

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Jack Edwin Dougherty - Page 6 Empty Jack Edwin Dougherty

Fri 20 Jan 2012, 9:46 pm
First topic message reminder :

Warren Commission reservations concerning Jack Dougherty


March 12, 1964, a memo was sent from Warren Commission lawyer Melvin A. Eisenberg to J. Lee Rankin. Eisenberg set out his suspicions concerning the testimony and actions of Jack Edwin Dougherty who was employed as an order-filler at the Texas School Book Depository.



The memo was sent approximately one month before Dougherty was due to give his sworn testimony concerning events in the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963 in front of the Warren Commission.



Although TSBD superintendent Roy Sansom Truly tried to paint a picture of Jack Dougherty as being mentally retarded I believe the facts claim otherwise. He finished High School in Dallas. He was accepted into the Army where he served for just over two years. He was also quite articulate according to his Warren Commission testimony even though he did seem to make errors concerning times and dates.



The “retardation” is simply a cover story.



Here is the memo:



MEMORANDUM

TO: J Lee Rankin

FROM: Melvin A. Eisenberg

SUBJECT: Identity of Assassin



I think a thorough investigation should he run on a TSBD employee named Jack Dougherty.



On the morning of November 22, Dougherty was part of a crew laying a new plywood floor on the sixth floor of the TSBD. This crew consisted of Danny Arce, Dougherty, Charles Givens, James ("Junior") Jarman, Billy Lovelady, and Bonnie Rae Williams, all regular employees in the TSBD shipping and. order-filling department.

They were apparently working under the direction of William Shelley the senior employee in that department.



In a written statement to the Dallas police on November 22,

Dougherty gave the following story: On the morning of November 22, he had worked [with the floor laying crew] on the sixth floor until 12:00, when he went down to the first floor to eat his lunch. After lunch he returned to work [on the sixth floor] and then went down to the fifth floor "to get some stock," when he heard a shot, which sounded as if it had come from inside the building. He then went down to the first floor and asked Eddie Piper, the TSBD Janitor, whether Piper had heard anything. Piper said yes, he had heard 3 shots. Dougherty then returned to the sixth floor. (81B.20)[


SA Blake of the Secret Service, who interviewed Dougherty between December 2 and December 5, reported that "when Dougherty was interviewed he seemed to be very confused about time and places. Mr. Truly [Roy S. Truly, Superintendent of the TSBD] finished the information that although Dougherty is a very good employee and a hard worker, he is mentally retarded and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and. has-been especially confused since the assassination." (SS 1*91 at p. 7)



I am suspicious of Dougherty for several reasons.



(1) He has no alibi. Of the six employees on the floor laying crew, Givens claims to have been with a friend at a parking lot several blocks away when the assassination took place; Williams and Jarman were together on the fifth floor with another employee named Norman; Lovelady was standing outside the TSBD (and was photographed); and Arce claims to have been standing outside the TSBD.

Dougherty was inside the TSBD and all alone.


(2) His story is very thin.

(a) It does not make sense that Dougherty, one of a six-man floor laying crew, should begin working before the other five members returned from lunch.

(b) It is questionable that Dougherty would have had to go to the fifth floor to get "stock" in connection with the floor-laying project.



1/ Dougherty’s father told the FBI that Dougherty had received a medical discharge from the U.S. Army and had considerable difficulty coordinating his mental facilities and his speech. (5.367)





(c) Jarman, Norman, and Williams, who were at the southeast window of the fifth floor at the time of the assassination, and ran from there to the southwest window, make absolutely no mention of having seen Dougherty on the fifth floor.

(d) It does not seem credible that Dougherty would have gone down to the first floor, found out that the three shots had been fired, and then casually returned to the sixth floor.

(e) No report indicates that Dougherty or anyone else was on the sixth floor when that floor was searched

(f) Since Dougherty heard the shots on the fifth floor, and since the shots were fired at approximately 12:32, Dougherty must have returned to the sixth floor, allegedly to go back to work, before 12:30. This seems odd, since the TSBD lunch period extends until 12:45.

(3) If Dougherty is “mentally retarded,” it may explain some of the inconsistencies in his story. On the other hand, the “mental retardation” may be an emotional problem, which would itself be grounds for suspicion. In this connection, I find disturbing Truly’s comment that Dougherty “has been especially confused since the assassination.”



cc: Ball

Belin

Craig

Adams

Specter

Redlich



A couple of questions jump out of this:




  • None of these “concerns” or “suspicions” were explicitly discussed with Dougherty when he was on the stand and from the existing record they weren’t discussed with him by the FBI or the Dallas Police after Eisenberg had raised them.

  • Eisenberg claims the time of the shots was 12:32PM. This is the time also laid out in other documents relating to the assassination investigation. So what time was Kennedy actually shot?


Last edited by Admin on Fri 20 Jan 2012, 10:13 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Word change - formatting)

Mick_Purdy
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Sun 03 Dec 2023, 10:33 am
Roy Truly has to be a prime suspect for being the inside man. And with that somebody who could have easily had Dougherty doing his bidding. It was Truly who gave Dougherty the keys to the TSBD to open up in the mornings. Dougherty was the first employee to step foot in the building each day. He had the building all to himself before others would arrive. This is the man who would be unaccounted for during the lunch hour. It was only his word we have for his whereabouts. His alibi is actually much weaker than Oswald's it would seem. At least Carolyn Arnold, Bill Shelley, Norman, and Jarman either directly or indirectly supported Oswald's alibi. Dougherty had absolutely nobody else apart from himself to confirm where he was during the official lunch break.

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Ed.Ledoux
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Sun 03 Dec 2023, 1:23 pm
Mick, I don't even know that Jack needed to do anything. I mean, it seems so late in the game that they find the rifle,,, whereas if anybody was shooting out of That Window people would have pointed to That Window. Told cops to go straight to That Window. Cops with guns would go straight to That Window. There would be no searching other floors or f****** around for 20-30 minutes before they even find the shells & another half an hour before they find a rifle...it's just a bunch o' bullshit.
The sweep of other floors left 6th floor open for business. The authorities will have ample opportunity to plant rifle and shells.
Now had Dallas Police gone directly into the building up to That Window and found shells... Then yeah, maybe it would be Jack. We could pin that on him or anybody else like Roy Ransom Truly had access to the building the night before something like that.

Instead we have Baker take blame for rushing into an interior lunchroom. tsk tsk

Thusly no one did point out a window, since no shots were fired from any TSBD window.
I cant see a Dallas Cop just standing under THAT WINDOW, and not reacting after shots have been fired.
Oh wait...
Jack Edwin Dougherty - Page 6 Fb_img17

Are we to believe Jack wouldnt mess up and drop four shells, or get prints on the rifle?
I wouldnt trust him.
Roy or Shelley seem more responsible framers.
Tony Krome
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Sun 03 Dec 2023, 1:51 pm
Ed, I think the lady in your pic is checking out the handsome guy in uniform, and the cop is thinking I'll have a bit of that. Both oblivious to the roar of gunfire overhead.
Mick_Purdy
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Sun 03 Dec 2023, 3:42 pm
BYP's tell me that the rifle was planted in that building to frame Oswald. Carcano rifle =BYP = 6th floor TSBD. Sure Caster, Truly or whoever could've done it...but those guys don't like to get their hands dirty do they? Dougherty had opportunity, he definitely had the chance to place that weapon on the 6th floor or wherever close to the assassination time and then watch to make sure it remained unseen.....

But of course you're right Ed, anyone could've done the planting, take ya pick. We all know Jack wasn't the "retard" that Truly tried to make him out to be.
Gotta be a reason for that. IMO

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Ed.Ledoux
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Sun 03 Dec 2023, 6:25 pm
Except both those gals (carolyn and unknwn?)  are both spun around... Carolyn was quite pregnant. I am not buying the Cop (Smith?) was into prego ladies.
So we have a cop, under a window where shots supposedly are fired and no reaction.
The reaction is from Carolyn and Co. 
They both are no longer folowing the President and Jackie, even though they are positioned to watch the limo as it passes and heads for triple underpass....

A picture is worth a thousand words.
But we only need a few, 
'No Shots Fired From The TSBD.'
Ed.Ledoux
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Sun 03 Dec 2023, 6:32 pm
BYP'S are even later in their arrival.
Whomever placed a carcano on six it wasnt Lee.

Think about why the DPD took Buells rifle, a 303 that Ryder says was a likely candidate for drilling and tapping 3 holes.
A rifle identified and broadcast as the murder weapon.
There are more implications to follow.

We have a large kettle of fish, why eat the bait?
barto
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Sun 03 Dec 2023, 7:22 pm
Mick_Purdy wrote:Roy Truly has to be a prime suspect for being the inside man. And with that somebody who could have easily had Dougherty doing his bidding. It was Truly who gave Dougherty the keys to the TSBD to open up in the mornings. Dougherty was the first employee to step foot in the building each day. He had the building all to himself before others would arrive. This is the man who would be unaccounted for during the lunch hour. It was only his word we have for his whereabouts. His alibi is actually much weaker than Oswald's it would seem. At least Carolyn Arnold, Bill Shelley, Norman, and Jarman either directly or indirectly supported Oswald's alibi. Dougherty had absolutely nobody else apart from himself to confirm where he was during the official lunch break.

Molina opened up the shop, yet JD was present as well and worked on the fire/sprinkler installation equipment.

And Piper and JD did talk after JD came down....

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Sun 03 Dec 2023, 7:25 pm
Tony Krome wrote:Ed, I think the lady in your pic is checking out the handsome guy in uniform, and the cop is thinking I'll have a bit of that. Both oblivious to the roar of gunfire overhead.

Nope.


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Ed.Ledoux
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Sun 03 Dec 2023, 8:25 pm
That Sinks it.

Thx B

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Sun 03 Dec 2023, 9:23 pm
The cop and the lady story was in jest of course.

I recently saw an interview with Worrell's mother. I didn't realise he told his mother about what he witnessed when he got home, and that friends of the mother that were over, suggested he report it. So that for me added weight that he was there, and that the stories about him not possibly being there due to travel time from Love Field were maybe not true.

So he describes the rifle as spitting flame/smoke before he spun around and ran. He was convinced that the rifle fired. I'm not convinced that if any shots were fired from the SN, they were aimed at the Limo, more likely they were the pavement strikes that Skelton and others reported.
Ed.Ledoux
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Sun 03 Dec 2023, 10:11 pm
No worries, Im jousting that jesting.

Worrell lied through his teeth and gums.
He told what he heard. Not what he saw.
He heard it on the radio.
Worrell is as bad as Amos and Givens.
Right up there with Brennan.
Liars one and all.

Again no one pointed and screamed out "LOOKOUT THERES  A GUNMAN UP IN THAT WINDOW"
Never happened as no one shot from the TSBD
Worrell would need to be in the picture I posted .
He aint.

Just like Lee or a gunman did come down the back stairs... after shooting, leaves shells, but hides rifle??? Why.
Thats all fantasy and we have actual evidence to dispute it.
Lee was on First Floor and no strangers escaped.

Again no cop is standing there directly under That Window whilst shots are pumped into pavement or not.
It did not happen.
There is ZERO evidence of TSBD shot being fired.
Perjury doesnt count.
Tony Krome
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Sun 03 Dec 2023, 10:55 pm
Don't worry Ed, I've been a no shots from the TSBD for years, but that vid with the mother ... who the hell goes home and lies to momma?
Tony Krome
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Sun 03 Dec 2023, 11:14 pm
Ed, check it out;

https://youtu.be/uk_nJvGCCOY?t=238
Mick_Purdy
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Mon 04 Dec 2023, 12:26 am
barto wrote:
Mick_Purdy wrote:Roy Truly has to be a prime suspect for being the inside man. And with that somebody who could have easily had Dougherty doing his bidding. It was Truly who gave Dougherty the keys to the TSBD to open up in the mornings. Dougherty was the first employee to step foot in the building each day. He had the building all to himself before others would arrive. This is the man who would be unaccounted for during the lunch hour. It was only his word we have for his whereabouts. His alibi is actually much weaker than Oswald's it would seem. At least Carolyn Arnold, Bill Shelley, Norman, and Jarman either directly or indirectly supported Oswald's alibi. Dougherty had absolutely nobody else apart from himself to confirm where he was during the official lunch break.

Molina opened up the shop, yet JD was present as well and worked on the fire/sprinkler installation equipment.

And Piper and JD did talk after JD came down....
You got support for that claim young man? (Molina opening up) In all my days I've not read anything about Molina having keys and opening up. I sure as hell have read it about Jackie boy though.

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barto
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Mon 04 Dec 2023, 2:45 am
Anything for a man who guzzles down Fosters....

Jack Edwin Dougherty - Page 6 Img_2010

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Ed.Ledoux
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Mon 04 Dec 2023, 5:49 am
Thanks Tony,
Mama Worrell did not help his case.
James Worrell said Fire Crackers.
Why would he think that if he was looking up at a gun barrel barking flames out of it.
Mrs Worrell says it too in that vid, says dickie told her he thought it was firecrackers and ran off, he didnt say he saw any rifle or say he watched a gun fire., and described a rifle.

But later he could describe details he hadnt seen, couldnt have seen. Embellish much Dickie?

James Worrell was as good at lying as he was motorcycling. Oopsey Daisy.

All, and thats every person, near the TSBD, Pacific or on Houston, discredited Dickies tales and escape route.
Worrell was the most discredited man in the world.
I thank him. It led to further scrutiny of so called "witnesses" to a TSBD shooter.
Again ALL were discredited due to glaring inconsistency or their damn lying got the better of them, like Brennan the Genius. Or Bob Jackson, a cameraman without a single photo.

Its the web they weaved to catch flies.
Dont be a bug.

Had Worrell told the truth certain details would be evident.
He could find the bus driver and get him to corroborate part of his story.
Authorities didnt need go into it, and thats telling.

James gave an affidavit on Nov 23rd.
Plenty of time to read, watch and listen to other reports.
If you are leaning against the TSBD and look straight up you'd have seen nothing on 11/22.
If you are leaning against the TSBD and look at Elm you would not could not see JFK let alone the limo,,, was Worrell ten feet tall, nope.
He would not, could not see down Elm through the people lining Elm nor the Limo descending towards triple underpass.
Christ people standing up on the stairs had a hard time seeing and they were elevated five feet, so was Worrell, ten feet tall or full of shit.
Im sticking with the latter.

In every recreation or demonstration of live fire at targets on Elm, not one inch of barrel of rifle used protruded out the window.
Thats a fact.
Worrelll gave rise to other witnesses who claimed garbage like 'Lee was waving the gun around outside the window.'
Or he was leaning out the window and leaning out the window while waving the rifle out the window  , yet none could give physical characteristics. It's all bullshit and Whore'll was a big part of the bullshit narratives and inserting false imagery into the publics minds.

When reality was the authorities had nothing solid and no one to blame.... Until Roy Samson Truly says Lee is missing even though he supposedly just saw him. If true, who would stick around after having a dumb cop shove his pistola in his gut.
I'd be gone too. Fuck that place.
But no, Warrenistas want you to believe getting accosted at gun point is no big deal, heck they claim Lee then calmly gets a coke. No worries, was almost shot, but lets hang about while more dumb cops with guns drawn invade.
The reason their narratives don't make any sense. Don't hold water is because they are not real world. None of it happened that way.

Could James have caught a bus and been in the plaza or been in the area? Sure, of course. Why should we just discount Worrell not being there? But that's not the point. The point is the inconsistencies, the changing story and utter refuse he tried to pass off.

Worrell had no corroboration.
Ed.Ledoux
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Mon 04 Dec 2023, 6:18 am
Jack Edwin Dougherty - Page 6 Scre1013

So Worrell was not in the direct line of fire, no possible way to be hit or injured. Yet he runs off, as he was scared...?
Funny as the crowd, including TSBD employees on steps went to the knoll where there was smoke, loud noise and possible assassin.
The TSBD employees standing in front of Dickie didnt run away. Nope, they went back inside the TSBD.
Yeah, if you look at the picture I posted there's a cop right there.
Cop (Smith?) would be standing right in the line of sight of where Worrell would be observing... does cop get pointed to a window by Worrell. NO.
How about the other two cops on that corner whom were also in plain sight of James (had he really stood there). Nope, James doesnt seek them out to point to THAT WINDOW.

I got no love for Dickie.
He got what he deserved.
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Mon 04 Dec 2023, 7:11 am
Ed.Ledoux wrote:I got no love for Dickie.
He got what he deserved.
 
He's a real dick.
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Mon 04 Dec 2023, 7:39 am
So poor Worrell hitchhikes to Love Field and all, but doesn't get to see JFK very well at lovefield. Catches a little glimpse of him coming off plane. So he says he decides he's gonna go get "a much better view of Kennedy."
So he gets on a bus and it goes to Elm street. And then he walks several blocks. And he stops at the Texas school book depository, and he leans up against the building...?

Seems like the shittiest spot ever to observe the president's parade and get a 'better' view.
Stays in worst possible spot for an hour, to hour and a half!!!
pkenty of time to muscle his way to front of crowd, or select a position along Elm or Houston.

After all that effort of walking and busing and gonna go downtown saying I'm gonna go see JFK and I'll get a better spot.
SO
What does he do? He goes and stands by the building behind a bunch of people with zero visibility

He is so full of shit his eyes must be brown.
Worrell needs dug up and run over with a mack truck.

His placement against the building...

Jack Edwin Dougherty - Page 6 Scre1014
Ed.Ledoux
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Mon 04 Dec 2023, 7:54 am
StanDane wrote:
Ed.Ledoux wrote:I got no love for Dickie.
He got what he deserved.
 
He's a real dick.

Good thing he's dead. 
Best thing to happen in Dallas since Nov 23rd
Martha, his mother was no corroboration.
She got home after work, and Dickie had lots of media to absorb in that timeframe.

Worrell is the poster child of the WC.

His nonsensical answers about going to school, which he had quit. But he was gonna skip school which he wasn't gonna go to anyway. But he was working, but he wasn't working. But he had a job but he didn't start the job until january, yeah Dickie's a drunk buffoon. 

SPECTER. Did it pass right by in front of where you were standing? 

Mr. WORRELL. Within a HUNDRED feet, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to get a pretty good view of the President’s motorcade? 

Mr. WoRRELL. Yes, sir. 

FFS HE WAS A HUNDRED FEET AWAY FROM JFK...
after all that effort to get to see JFK he stays back a hundred feet?
Whatev.
Ed.Ledoux
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Mon 04 Dec 2023, 8:21 am
Mr. WORRELL: I didn’t get too good a view of the President either, I missed out on there too.
 But as they went by, they got, oh at least another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots.

So basically out of sight, yet claims he sees Jfk slump.

 Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear? 
Mr. WORRELL Four. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything at about that time? Mr. WORRELI,. Yes, sir, I looked up and saw the rifle, but I would say about 6 inches of it.

From below anyone looking up would not be able to see anything. Yet here is six inches protruding, and not measured from the window casement, but past the window ledge and out into mid air so from below Dickie could measure it 
FFS!
Rifle would need to be a six foot civil war musket to 
project that far.
Of course the short little Calvary Carbine Carcano doesnt fit the bill.
Thus the necessity for stories of a man leaning out and waving rifle to crowd.
Fool the masses with masses of bs.


SPECTER. And where did you see the rifle?

WORRELL. I am not going--I am not too sure but I told the FBI it was either in the fifth or the sixth floor on the far corner, on the east side. 

Gee thanks for telling us what you learned from tv and told the FBI.
And always equivocate if you dont want to give a wrong answer.

I'm through with this "witness"
Mick_Purdy
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Mon 04 Dec 2023, 10:05 am
Anything for a man who guzzles down Fosters....


Cool Thank you Bart.

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Tony Krome
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Mon 04 Dec 2023, 10:32 am
Note to myself, don't mention Worrell to Ed haha

Apart from the supposed rifle sighting, what about the guy he has running out the loading dock. Another figment?
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Mon 04 Dec 2023, 1:38 pm
Worrell is the figment.
Where is he in films and photos of the corner?
He has never turned up on film even with conserted efforts by believers.
Romack, Rackley, etc. didnt corroborate that story, neither a suit and tie guy or an Oswald ringer( dark hair, 5'8" to 5' 10" with open coat or shirt) exiting rear of TSBD after Dickie says he ran a hundred yards toward Romack/Rackley.
Watching the news for an hour would give Dickie all he needed... Except corroboration.

There is always the details Worrell got wrong.
Or changed.

Did he hear a noise, then looked up, saw flash from barrell and then ran hearing two more noises.
Or was it that Dickie hears a noise that sounded like firecrackers, (and no reason to look up) as "firecrackers" are usually at ground level.
Then he hears another noise he then assumed is gunfire, looked up saw a rifle flash and took off.
This differs from his statement of having seen the second shot fired and then sees Kennedy slump, we know JFK didnt slump till he was actually struck by a missile.(second shot)
No corroboration from officer W.E.Barnett, Sam Pate, Rackley nor Romack.
So we are forced to believe a man in a sports coat runs out the back and South on Houston even though hundreds of bystanders didnt.
(Except maybe Carr, if you buy bridges)
As another tan jacket man he tracks at ground level amongst chaos and crowds.... TAXI!

When Romack saw the back door being guarded by an officer, he assumed a suspect might be coming out. After officer Barnett left the rear, Romack decided to take up the task of keeping eye on the rear door. He continued to approach to the TSBD that he began at the time of the shots, reaching a "sawhorse barrier" that crossed Houston St., located approximately 25 yards from the TSBD to block northbound traffic into a road construction zone.
Romack moves the barricade for Pate's KBOX rig.
And of course, everyone jumps on that. Oh lucky he turned his back for 2 seconds to move a barricade. That's when the guy ran out the back and ran away.... He must of been waiting for Rackley to turn his back and makes a great dash... BUT None of those other people mentioned saw him not even the people who were still looking that way like Rackley and throngs of bystanders.

Worrell tells FBI this running man was Oswald (or appeared to be Oswald)
I think Buell read this and incorporated it into his door stop book about Lee coming from the rear of TSBD (no running involved though)
Of course running man would be visible from his front as he exits the rear door.
That means Facial features are visible, moustache, hairlip etc.
We only get the Rear description of this suspect.
No facial features.
Again more bs by Tricky Dickie.
Worrell avoids mentioning Ofc. Barnett as there would be no reason to be scared with an armed officer RIGHT THERE! Let alone Officers Smith and Smith also at the corner.

Worrell's claims and stories can only be believable in a vacuum, where there's only the people he mentions, none of the bystanders, police or witnesses of record. 
From the rifle shooting, no one in his way, IE no one standing in front of him so he can see down Elm to see JFK slump et cetera et cetera bullshit upon bullshit can only exist in such a vacuum.
FJW!
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JFK_FNG
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Jack Edwin Dougherty - Page 6 Empty Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

Mon 04 Dec 2023, 2:30 pm
Random thought, but does Worrell’s alleged position against the building and claim that he was alone potentially fit Alan Ford’s alleged bag man in front of the TSBD? Unidentified guy, standing alone against the building…

There is corroboration for someone running out of the TSBD: Carr, Marion Meharg, and I think there’s at least one more. Both Carr and Meharg said their guy jumped in a Rambler station wagon, which is corroborated by Craig, etc.

There’s also some contradictory evidence, as pointed out by Ed, but the Rambler incident definitely happened. The only question is whether the running passenger came out of the TSBD, and there are a few totally independent corroborative reports suggesting that he did. It’s worthy of consideration at least, IMO.
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Jack Edwin Dougherty - Page 6 Empty Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty

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