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Brian says...Sat 30 Dec 2023, 4:33 pmEd.Ledoux
last drinks before the bar closesSat 30 Dec 2023, 2:46 pmTony Krome
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Busted again: Tex ItaliaSat 30 Dec 2023, 9:22 amEd.Ledoux
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Was Oswald ever confronted with the physical rifle?Sat 30 Dec 2023, 12:03 amCastroSimp
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Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Empty Prayer Man

Sat 14 Dec 2013, 11:07 am
First topic message reminder :

Original Prayer Man thread at the Education Forum
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/20354-oswald-leaving-tsbd/

___________________________________________________________________________________________________


G'day,
I have to say I find it oh so mildly amusing reading some of the comments, thoughts and rants associated on other forums regarding Prayer Man / Oswald on the front steps. It's sad really, watching people who have spent a lifetime married to an idea or a theory, only to witness that idea or theory shattering into a thousand pieces and not accepting the inevitable singular conclusion which is staring them in the face. To Greg Parker, Sean Murphy and all the other amazing researchers following the path of truth in this case I tips me Lid.

Mick

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Fri 07 Oct 2022, 9:13 am
Oh and this shows the long sleeve at its clearest.

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Fri 07 Oct 2022, 9:39 am
Ed.Ledoux wrote:Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Zombod74


He is holding a bottle.

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Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Empty Re: Prayer Man

Fri 07 Oct 2022, 9:43 am
Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 The_bo10

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Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Empty Re: Prayer Man

Fri 07 Oct 2022, 1:40 pm
barto wrote:
Ed.Ledoux wrote:Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Zombod74


He is holding a bottle.
Bart, I know there was a bottle sitting on the landing, but wasn't it the wrong brand or something?

I do think it is problematic regarding the available images to go beyond ruling in or or out gender, body shape, hairline etc. and venturing into determining what, if anything he is holding. That he appears at first glance to be holding something, is at leastly partly due, imo, to what looks like his hand but is really a reflection of his elbow. If you cover that up with something, what becomes clear is that he is standing with arms folded and that blob of light is not a physical part of the man.  That said, I guess he could still be holding a bottle, but we will find out one way or another only after getting the original film.  If he is holding something, I think the bottle argument is the most likely, but it was this being raised before that started a whole other debate with some claiming it was a camera and others like Doyle claiming it was the keyhole to another dimension or something like that...

Anyway, that nitpick aside, nice job by all. And let me just underline that nothing was done here except cropping? Correct?

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"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

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Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Empty Re: Prayer Man

Fri 07 Oct 2022, 2:07 pm
This video I put together 5 years ago might be good to revisit. I've always been a fan of Mick Purdy's enhancement of the best Darnell image of Prayer Man (4:36). Be sure to select 720p quality in settings.

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Fri 07 Oct 2022, 2:27 pm
Great stuff, guys. Looks quite Oswaldian.

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Fri 07 Oct 2022, 3:11 pm
greg_parker wrote:
barto wrote:
Ed.Ledoux wrote:Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Zombod74

 And let me just underline that nothing was done here except cropping? Correct?
I split the right side from the left along an artifact line running top to bottom.
I slid the right side up slightly to where the face shadows, chin etc are aligned.
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Fri 07 Oct 2022, 3:49 pm
Ed.Ledoux wrote:
greg_parker wrote:
barto wrote:
Ed.Ledoux wrote:Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Zombod74

 And let me just underline that nothing was done here except cropping? Correct?
I split the right side from the left along an artifact line running top to bottom.
I slid the right side up slightly to where the face shadows, chin etc are aligned.

Sorry, should have said before you attacked it with a virtual chainsaw, Hanibal! Lol.

(But i do see what you did and why... ) just making sure to get on the record that no filters, no special effects and alternative dimensions were involved.

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Fri 07 Oct 2022, 7:01 pm
Sharpening was applied.

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Fri 07 Oct 2022, 7:45 pm
Doctor Lecktor thanks.
Yes it had an bad scan or capture or a artifact of the door frame was where frames overlapped or some anomaly was introduced.
Possibly the celluloid woild have the face stretched in a plane and a jiggle in the other... if anyone is following .. here let me post the original again next to the aligned version.
Aligned means face and its shadows are made to be continuous.
Arms etc are not.
Alignment is meant to see if the right side of the face can be moved to effect a better facial iimage overall.
As is we are mainly looking at the left side of PMs head and no real information about its inverse.
Or false data from the artifact on right side.



Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Zombod76

Original on Left.                  Aligned on Right
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Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Empty Re: Prayer Man

Sat 08 Oct 2022, 11:54 am
greg_parker wrote:
Roger Odisio wrote:Have you seen this, posted today by Greg Doudna at the Ed Forum?

"So that is a theory of the case in which Oswald as Prayer Man is not only correct but could become possibly more comprehensible.
But now I have a question (and please forgive if this has already been answered elsewhere): according to the Sixth Floor Museum, statement from Gary Mack of March 25, 2015 via Darrell Hastings, there is a first-generation copy of the Darnell film in their custody. I understand you believe better-quality information could be obtained from that film than presently accessible. Yet for some reason there is no access for research purposes to that film, citing "copyright". I see this from Gary Mack:
"NBC took the original Wiegman and Darnell films from the Dallas NBC affiliate to New York following the assassination weekend. Whether the network still has the original Darnell film is unknown, but as a former employee I know the affiliate does not have it or a copy. Nor does Jimmy Darnell.
"Fortunately, a first-generation 16mm copy print was made in Dallas over that weekend and it is in the Museum's collection; however, the Museum cannot do anything with it until copyright issues are resolved. It'll happen, and sooner rather than later." (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/20354-oswald-leaving-tsbd/page/109/)
 
When I see this, I think, whoooah! What is going on?
Obviously, for starters, "sooner rather than later" has turned out, now in 2021 six years later, unfulfilled.
All I can say is: it is just customary and basic protocol in fields of scholarship working on primary materials or archaeological artifacts, that qualified researchers are to be allowed access, by permission. That is just normal and supported by professional ethics statements of scholarly societies.
So my question is very simple, in two parts: (a) who owns the copyright on that film? and (b) has a qualified researcher sought formal permission from the copyright owner (not the Sixth Floor Museum or Gary Mack), and been formally refused, directly by the copyright owner? 
I see reference to an ROKC petition, etc. but that is not quite an answer directly to the "a" and "b" of my question. 
If this has not been done, I have a modest suggestion: have a legal firm research and identify and establish who is the legal copyright owner, and write a letter on behalf of you (Andrej Stancak) to that legal copyright owner, asking for the access you need, for research purposes. Get an answer
If the answer is "no", publicize it to high heaven. I have been through this whole issue of lack of access to valuable research materials, with the Dead Sea Scrolls. I was filmed on a Nova television program in the fall of 1991 as the first student in the world to view heretofore-inaccessible microfilms of the unpublished Dead Sea Scrolls which had just been publicly released by the Huntington Library in California to the world. The action of the Huntington Library broke the access issue in that case.
But back to the Darnell film sitting in the Sixth Floor Museum. Maybe the answer--if the copyright owner is NBC, if the copyright owner, NBC, was asked--might be yes.
Could this access issue with the Darnell film be as simple as: a request to the copyright owner has not yet been made?
Is it possible it would be as simple to get access as that?"

Who has the copyright?  NBC?  Has the museum been asked whether they have cleared up the copyright question posed by Gary Mack six years ago so as to allow access to their copy?

Apparently Doudna has seen your letter to NBC, Greg.  Did they refuse you or simply ignore the  letter?  Perhaps it's time to consider Doudna's suggestion to have a law firm write to NBC (if they have the copyright) on your behalf, or for Andrej Stancak, or a list of researchers.  As Doudna says, to get an answer this time.  There are a number of JFK researchers who are lawyers. 
Roger, whatever you can think of to do, could be helpful. But chances are, it has already been tried.

I started the petition.  Got very few sigs.

I wrote to NBC. They ignored.

I tried to get the National Archives to acquire the films under the JFK Act. They claimed they don't have the power to do that - yet I know for a fact they acquired paper documents themselves from a Secret Service agent after being tipped off that he had them.

I believe it was Bart and Ed who contacted the relevant dept of NBC via email to negotiate obtaining the films. After initially seeming to get somewhere, it was stopped by higher-ups. They were offered only crappy multi-generational versions. 

I think it was Ed and Bart who also tried to get Stone's production company to obtain it for us. That got very short shrift.

Finally, this year, I spoke to a producer for a small production company here in Australia about doing an episode on JFK for a series they produce here on historical and current cold cases and mysteries.  This was arranged through contacts Mick has in the industry. They were interested and the producer said if they went ahead, they culd try and obtain the films. They eventually decided however that they were too small and under-resourced to tackle a huge case like this.

To obtain those films, we need the might of the media on our side. To get the media on our side, we need a fucking ceebrity to jump on board. Do you know any? Because the media is not interested in how good the information is you have to present. They want personalities to bring in the viewers for advertizing dollars. If you are not a known name, then you better at least be a fucking tin-foil hatted lunatic - because they willl also draw an audience.

If I sound angry and frustrated about the situation, that is only because I am.
Roger O, have highlighted the answer to your question at the EF,

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Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Empty Re: Prayer Man

Sat 08 Oct 2022, 3:39 pm
Greg,

There is no question that the ARRB reserved for itself the right to "request additional records *when necessary* for identifying, evaluating, or interpreting records" already in the process.  The ARRB closed in Sept 1998.  The records were passed to the National Archives at that time.  The whole point of the record collection in the first place was "provide the public with the opportunity to judge for themselves the surrounding history of the event". 

You think the responsibility to keep the records up to date as new things were learned didn't pass to the Archives along with the records?   Yeah, they're lying.  Your example helps prove that point.

On Sept.23 I sent two emails to the Archives, the second of which asked them specifically what mechanism they have in place to keep the records up to date, using Darnell as an example.  They sent me a form letter response saying:  "We will assign your request to a staff member who will contact you with a more substantive response".
Nothing further. Several times I called the JFK Collection number they posted and got a busy signal each time!?!


How did you get through to them to get an answer?
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Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Empty Re: Prayer Man

Sat 08 Oct 2022, 4:01 pm
Roger Odisio wrote:Greg,

There is no question that the ARRB reserved for itself the right to "request additional records *when necessary* for identifying, evaluating, or interpreting records" already in the process.  The ARRB closed in Sept 1998.  The records were passed to the National Archives at that time.  The whole point of the record collection in the first place was "provide the public with the opportunity to judge for themselves the surrounding history of the event". 

You think the responsibility to keep the records up to date as new things were learned didn't pass to the Archives along with the records?   Yeah, they're lying.  Your example helps prove that point.

On Sept.23 I sent two emails to the Archives, the second of which asked them specifically what mechanism they have in place to keep the records up to date, using Darnell as an example.  They sent me a form letter response saying:  "We will assign your request to a staff member who will contact you with a more substantive response".
Nothing further. Several times I called the JFK Collection number they posted and got a busy signal each time!?!


How did you get through to them to get an answer?
I never talked to them. I spammed them after joining their forum. They replied at least 2 or 3 times before they stopped, It must have become obvious I was not going to be fobbed off with bullshit. I will see if I still have the exchanges I had with them and post them if I can find them. This was a few years ago now - very much pre-covid - with covid  becoming the excuse for lack of action or responsiveness in more recent years.

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Don Jeffries

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Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Empty Re: Prayer Man

Sat 08 Oct 2022, 9:34 pm
barto wrote:Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 The_bo10


The pic below is an obvious composite with Lee's face plastered on. Ed posted this on FB.

But ehm, that is a bottle he is holding. A heavily blurred one but that is a bottle.

Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Img_8414


I am a bit amused by what I have posted the last few weeks or so and its response. 
The girth is no more, the sleeve is long (and Vinny showed this years back already with his sepia version), what f_____g hemline?,  no glasses, nor is he wearing a wig for professional reason either and now the above image points to a bottle.

More and more it is becoming Oswald....... "watching the P parade".

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Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Empty Re: Prayer Man

Sat 08 Oct 2022, 11:32 pm
I'm guessing the new argument will be: It is Sarah wearing a man's workshirt and sucking in her gut for professional reasons. 

It is either a bottle, or defects that we see as a bottle. It really doesn't matter. All that matters is the ID of the person.


Last edited by greg_parker on Sun 09 Oct 2022, 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sun 09 Oct 2022, 10:09 am
Roger Odisio wrote:Greg,

There is no question that the ARRB reserved for itself the right to "request additional records *when necessary* for identifying, evaluating, or interpreting records" already in the process.  The ARRB closed in Sept 1998.  The records were passed to the National Archives at that time.  The whole point of the record collection in the first place was "provide the public with the opportunity to judge for themselves the surrounding history of the event". 

You think the responsibility to keep the records up to date as new things were learned didn't pass to the Archives along with the records?   Yeah, they're lying.  Your example helps prove that point.

On Sept.23 I sent two emails to the Archives, the second of which asked them specifically what mechanism they have in place to keep the records up to date, using Darnell as an example.  They sent me a form letter response saying:  "We will assign your request to a staff member who will contact you with a more substantive response".
Nothing further. Several times I called the JFK Collection number they posted and got a busy signal each time!?!


How did you get through to them to get an answer?

I’ve had several communications with NARA and they all start with that form letter. They’ll probably get back to you, but it can take a month or more for the first real response, sometimes much longer. I’ll PM you the contact info for an archivist who’s been particularly helpful and always replies very quickly.
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Sun 09 Oct 2022, 11:53 am
Bottle looks full... recent purchase perhaps.

I see no need for second soda so soon after this.
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Sun 09 Oct 2022, 3:36 pm
For years now I've maintained that it's a reflection in the glass that creates the illusion of PM's girth and awkward pose. But as we've pointed out many times, it's not a good thing to spend one's life defending some pet theory at the expense of all other considerations. I found this tool online. That and Bart's perception of a bottle made me take a different perspective on it. I think this could work and there's no issue with imagining there is a bottle in his right hand. As Greg  observed, reflection or not, bottle or not, the thing is he's not on the 6th. This could represent a frame in transition to or from an arms crossed pose, or something else. There's nothing that says he's not moving in the course of the Darnell clip. More likely that he is:

Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Mannequin-montage

Oh yes, and here's one just for Doyle:

Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Mannequin-female

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Tue 11 Oct 2022, 4:50 am
Thanks for the note on a person to contact at the Archives.  She did indeed answer my email quickly.  But it was to tell me she'll be out of the office for a week and would respond when she returns.

I have sent her the following email:

"As I understand it, the 1992 JFK Act created the Assassination Records Review Board to identify records relevant to the assassination and decide whether they could be released to the public.  They did so in order  "to provide the public the opportunity to judge for themselves the surrounding history of the event".  The Board actively encouraged private citizens and organizations who possessed assassination records to donate them to the Board "to make the Collection as historically rich as possible".  The Board reserved for itself the right to "request additional records when necessary for identifying, evaluating, or interpreting records" already in the process.  
 
The Board closed September 30, 1998 and the records became the responsibility of the National Archives. I assume the purpose of the Collection delineated by the Board now guides the work of the Archives. Much new information about the assassination has come to light in the last 24 years that can further our understanding of what happened.  
 
My questions are:  what mechanism does the Archives have in place to collect additional information to keep the records up to date?  How does it work?    Do you consider requests for a particular record to be added to the Collection?  What records have been added since the board closed, beyond those currently in dispute from the Board's original work? 
 

For example, the Board determined that the Zapruder film of the assassination is a JFK record and took possession of the original.  There are other films taken at roughly the same time that, with modern enhancement techniques, can shed further light on what happened."




It seems clear that the Archives not only has the right to add Darnell to the JFK Collection, despite what someone there told Greg, it has the responsibility to do so.
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Tue 11 Oct 2022, 12:11 pm
Richard Bernabei.


Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Man-in12
Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Man-in11
Darnell - Prayer Man - Page 36 Man-in10

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Thu 20 Oct 2022, 11:24 am
Oh the irony!


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/-are-hiding-group-sues-biden-national-archives-jfk-assassination-recor-rcna52660

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Fri 21 Oct 2022, 9:10 am
NBC can not see irony.
Heres to Morley and Simpich having great success against Brandon and Co.
Cheers!
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Fri 21 Oct 2022, 9:41 am
Ed.Ledoux wrote:NBC can not see irony.
Heres to Morley and Simpich having great success against Brandon and Co.
Cheers!
Too true that Ed,

Dripping with irony! They're running and promoting a story on private citizens trying to force the Government to hand material over to the archives. Ha!

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Fri 21 Oct 2022, 2:05 pm
Now if only they will release the films.

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Fri 21 Oct 2022, 3:38 pm
Vinny wrote:Now if only they will release the films.

Exactly Vinny.
From the article:

"The foundation is also asking the court to order the National Archives to find records that are “known to exist but that are not part of the JFK Collection.”

Then there's this statement at the end, my bold:

"The whole argument about documents is stupid. The CIA is wrong. All of this should have been released a long time ago, and it’s shameful the government has yet to do so," Uscinski said. "At the same time, there’s not a document sitting in a government vault somewhere that says, ‘We did it.’”

Maybe not, but in all likelihood there is a film sitting in an NBC storeroom somewhere that says, 'Oswald didn't do it.'

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