General Discussion

The timeline for the rooming house visit may want to be set ahead about 10 minutes, rather than nixed entirely. Putting the Rambler as leaving Dealey Plaza at 12:42, it goes over the Commerce St. Viaduct and then turns down Beckley, about 2.25 miles all told to the rooming house- a 5-minute trip that brings it there at 12:48

From there, only an additional 0.9 miles through a residential neighborhood to the Texas Theater- another 5-minute drive. Which brings it there well within the Butch Burroughs claim that Oswald was inside the theater at 1:00-1:07

But erasing the McWatters bus and Whaley cab still doesn't erase the doppelganger. There's the striking resemblance of the "Lee" of the March 1957 Mercer farm hunting photo to the ghostly image in the 6th-floor west window (with the widow's peak & bull neck); and also the Jiffy convenience store episode of 9:30 AM, about one mile south of the Depository, where "Lee" displayed his Texas driver's license and consumed 2-3 beers w/candy bars on the premises.

The interview of store clerk Fred Moore by SA David Barry (WCD 7 p. 738) is a rather gaping gap in the Mary Ferrell Archives, which is missing pp. 737-750 of WCD 7. The store owner George Worthington was also on the premises that morning.

My theory at present is that Harvey & Lee were fraternal twins, with one of them given up to an adoption agency/relief society upon birth by the newly-widowed Marguerite. They were "sold into CIA slavery" by age 13 and groomed as spies for penetrating Russia/Cuba, and steered into the patsy role in JFK's assassination. One or the other was going to get eliminated, and each may have realized that conundrum, before or after the fact.

With biological twins, there's a fair guarantee they'll still look quite similar at age 24.

Richard, you know I break out in a nasty rash whenever "Harvey and Lee" is introduced into the subject.

Having them as twins makes a hellava lot more sense though, then one being a Good 'Ol Southern Boy and the other being a New York born son of Hungarian commies; one being a 6 footer at 12 and the other being a midget; one being a jock and the being a nerd etc etc etfreakin'cetra.

It's not so much a CIA plot as a Vaudeville act... Abbott & Costello, Crosby & Hope, Laurel & Hardy, Harvey & Lee...

You know Dr Henry Kloepfer used to ride around New Orleans on a motorbike visiting twins to study...?

I don't rule out a doppleganger -- but I don't think there was one on McWatter's bus, either.

I think Sean Murphy may have nailed the shooter in the Hughes film. I'll be blowed if he doesn't match the wanted description given out, along with witness descriptions - Geez, he also looks Eastern European --- may be even Hungarian... but do I think he was part of some longstanding CIA operation involving himself and Oswald, or that he ever called himself Harvey and had a "mother" who pretended to be Marguerite? Not a chance in hell...

Your twins theory holds more water than Armstrong's potpourri of every Oswald sighting ever made, regardless of hour silly or impossible, and meshed into the Frankenstein's Monster of all theories...

We're even in the same ballpark... Korea... fear and loathing... brainwashing...exaggerated gaps... CIA counter-measures... Oswald being sucked into the vortex at 13 through family members... Nuclear Test Ban Negotiations... rocketry and missiles... overflights... Ike's foreign policy... Pax Americana... radar... backdoor diplomacy...

It's the Greatest Story Never Told.

You may wish to carry a supply of lotion for that rash, Greg. But I entirely agree that proponents of "Harvey and Lee" tend to be dogmatic about John Armstrong's thesis, and have little tolerance for heretics. I personally doubt that John would advocate a zero-tolerance policy for criticism of his ideas. I've been a huge admirer of his research, and consider his achievement as monumental. I sifted through his material very carefully for 2-3 years, from when his book first came out, and consider him my primary influence in the JFK assassination field. However, I've had strong doubts this past year as to whether he interpreted his own research correctly- there apparently are major revisions needed.

The military records pointing to a doppelganger, I find inarguable (conflicting Marine Corps Unit diaries vs, medical records, conflicting accounts from fellow servicemen, the lack of records when they should exist); and also the New York City/New Orleans school system records are of a faux "Lee Harvey Oswald" created from two young teenage boys.

I also find compelling the evidence indicating the use of a doppelganger on assassination day.

But I've had strong doubts as to whether sometimes Armstrong's "Lee" wasn't actually "Harvey", or someone else entirely, or even nobody at all. I haven't had the time & energy to look into the many individual doppelganger incidents; but a sequel to "Harvey and Lee" might be called for someday. "Beyond the Valley of Return to Harvey and Lee" (?!)

I think you hit the nail on the head with your post about the Mrs. Jack D. Tippit phone call. Emil Gardos (not Kardos) is a shining catch, a 7-lb rainbow trout. I had to also conclude, some time ago, that the mystery woman caller was a crank- and probably knew Louis Weinstock and had overheard him mentioning Oswald, after the assassination. The implication in "Harvey and Lee"- presenting this phone call as sort of supporting evidence that "Harvey" was a Hungarian refugee- has little merit, in my opinion.

But I think the Hungarian/MK-ULTRA line of research is worth pursuing, as well as the idea that the "caretaker" Marguerite (Pseudo-Marguerite) belonged to a clan with strong Trotskyist beliefs, and raised little Harvey in NYC.

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Another "H & L" aficionado helped me arrive at the twins hypothesis about a year ago. His thinking was that the 1960 & 1961 Minsk residency permit photos are of two different Lee Harvey Oswalds- the original LHO "lost it" after his "suicide attempt" in Moscow shortly after arrival in Russia, and had to be temporarily replaced- only to be switched again before departure to America.

I couldn't agree, but got to thinking. We both agreed that biology was the best road to produce lookalikes. He proposed there was some sort of family scandal involving father Robert Oswald- a traveling salesman- and one of Lillian Murret's sisters. Hmmm. Interesting.

After a few months the idea arrived that maybe the two Lee Harvey Oswalds were indeed twins- one of them given up at birth.

When you consideer what Dr. Joseph Mengele & his Nazi pals were "researching"- the twins hypothesis yhas considerable merit.

<You know Dr. Henry Kloepfer used to ride around New Orleans on a motorbike visiting twins to study...?> Hum a few bars. Maybe I can fake it.

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My aficionado friend also pointed out a major snag in the Armstrong interpretation- concerning the .22 derringer shooting incident at Atsugi. Supposedly "Lee" shot himself in the soft tissue of his left tricep- the bullet slug was removed via incision 10 days later, which left two scars- one where the bullet entered, another where it was removed.

The NARRATIVE SUMMARY prepared by First Assistant Dr. R. S. Guthrie, reporting on the incision made by a Dr. Greenlee (H & L, pp. 175-176) states:

The wound of entrance was allowed to heal and the missile was then excised through a separate incision two inches above the wound of entry."

No further measurements are given. Armstrong then states that no such scars were found at Oswald's autopsy. However, if you consult Dr. Earl Rose's autopsy report on Oswald (WCD 735 pp. 416-434, w/ diagram at p. 432) it states at the very bottom of p. 417:

"Over the lateral aspect of the left arm, 16 inches from the top of the head is a 3/4 x 3/8 inch wound." (Entry site for .22 bullet?)

And at the very bottom of p. 418: "Over the medial aspect mid-distal third of the left arm there is a 1 1/4 inch vertical scar with cross hatching." (Incision site w/ stitches?)

I'm still not 100% sure about this, but this medical evidence seems to indicate it was actually the historic "Harvey" Oswald who was initially stationed at Atsugi- not "Lee", as John Armstrong interpreted.

So his theory probably needs an overhaul- but may I add that his journey to the Oracle at Delphi was true and courageous- although some parts of the revelation got confused in the translation.

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McWatters' bus, I'm afraid to report, is terminally ill and on its way to bus heaven.

Sean Murphy's Hughes-film man may indeed break the bank (and I'm talking the whole Federal Reserve system!) but it would clinch it to find just one more contemporaneous picture of this person, to help establish some time/whereabouts data.

I still have hopes that fresh eyes may even spot our man Lee Harvey Oswald in the 12:33-12:42 Dealey Plaza photos...

You may wish to carry a supply of lotion for that rash, Greg.

Nah, I'll just keep scratching it, Richard. Creature of habit.

But I entirely agree that proponents of "Harvey and Lee" tend to be dogmatic about John Armstrong's thesis, and have little tolerance for heretics. I personally doubt that John would advocate a zero-tolerance policy for criticism of his ideas.

Yes. He stays aloof from all of that. He has minions taking care of it with his implicit approval.

I've been a huge admirer of his research, and consider his achievement as monumental.

Noted.

I sifted through his material very carefully for 2-3 years, from when his book first came out, and consider him my primary influence in the JFK assassination field.

Well, I've never denied he is owed a tip of the lid on some counts. If he got you started, then that is one example.

I see here that you quote Armstrong quoting from official records. In all that sifting, how often did you check records he cited to verify he has quoted accurately and in context?

However, I've had strong doubts this past year as to whether he interpreted his own research correctly - there apparently are major revisions needed.

Why am I not surprised? The guy thought the Zipper documents are real.

The military records pointing to a doppelganger, I find inarguable (conflicting Marine Corps Unit diaries vs, medical records, conflicting accounts from fellow servicemen,

How much of this have you taken Armstrong's word for, and how much have you verified through the records yourself?

And of any remaining conflict, how have you gone about ruling out other possibilities to explain them?

and also the New York City/New Orleans school system records are of a faux "Lee Harvey Oswald" created from two young teenage boys.

Again, have you checked those records yourself? I have, and I found no problems with them. If I missed something, point me to it!

I also find compelling the evidence indicating the use of a doppelganger on assassination day.

You don't have to be a "Harvey & Lee-ite" to believe the above. I remain ambivalent about it.

But I've had strong doubts as to whether sometimes Armstrong's "Lee" wasn't actually "Harvey", or someone else entirely, or even nobody at all. I haven't had the time & energy to look into the many individual doppelganger incidents; but a sequel to "Harvey and Lee" might be called for someday. "Beyond the Valley of Return to Harvey and Lee" (?!)

In all sincerity, Richard, another "Harvey & Lee" book -- no matter how new and improved, is, in the end, not going to make a dent in overturning the official history. It may add a few more adherents to the devout band... but beyond that...

I think you hit the nail on the head with your post about the Mrs. Jack D. Tippit phone call. Emil Gardos (not Kardos) is a shining catch, a 7-lb rainbow trout. I had to also conclude, some time ago, that the mystery woman caller was a crank- and probably knew Louis Weinstock and had overheard him mentioning Oswald, after the assassination. The implication in "Harvey and Lee"- presenting this phone call as sort of supporting evidence that "Harvey" was a Hungarian refugee- has little merit, in my opinion.

I think this is another area where he is close enough to merit a "well done". The Hungarian issue, when you consider Pic and his in-laws, the MKULTRA sub-projects concerning Hungarians (and the possibility Pic's wife was engulfed in that), and the book predicting that right-wing forces may hire a Hungarian sniper to wipe out the "arch-commie", JFK are areas worth exploring. Armstrong's problem is, again, how he has interpreted the data and used records to support his theory which should have been looked into critically before being taken on board.

My aficionado friend also pointed out a major snag in the Armstrong interpretation- concerning the .22 derringer shooting incident at Atsugi. Supposedly "Lee" shot himself in the soft tissue of his left tricep- the bullet slug was removed via incision 10 days later, which left two scars- one where the bullet entered, another where it was removed.

The NARRATIVE SUMMARY prepared by First Assistant Dr. R. S. Guthrie, reporting on the incision made by a Dr. Greenlee (H & L, pp. 175-176) states:

The wound of entrance was allowed to heal and the missile was then excised through a separate incision two inches above the wound of entry."

No further measurements are given. Armstrong then states that no such scars were found at Oswald's autopsy. However, if you consult Dr. Earl Rose's autopsy report on Oswald (WCD 735 pp. 416-434, w/ diagram at p. 432) it states at the very bottom of p. 417:

"Over the lateral aspect of the left arm, 16 inches from the top of the head is a 3/4 x 3/8 inch wound." (Entry site for .22 bullet?)

And at the very bottom of p. 418: "Over the medial aspect mid-distal third of the left arm there is a 1 1/4 inch vertical scar with cross hatching." (Incision site w/ stitches?)

I'm still not 100% sure about this, but this medical evidence seems to indicate it was actually the historic "Harvey" Oswald who was initially stationed at Atsugi- not "Lee", as John Armstrong interpreted.

So his theory probably needs an overhaul- but may I add that his journey to the Oracle at Delphi was true and courageous- although some parts of the revelation got confused in the translation.

Sorry Richard, this has lost me.

How do we get from: "Armstrong then states that no such scars were found at Oswald's autopsy."

To

However, if you consult Dr. Earl Rose's autopsy report on Oswald (WCD 735 pp. 416-434, w/ diagram at p. 432) it states at the very bottom of p. 417:

"Over the lateral aspect of the left arm, 16 inches from the top of the head is a 3/4 x 3/8 inch wound." (Entry site for .22 bullet?)

And at the very bottom of p. 418: "Over the medial aspect mid-distal third of the left arm there is a 1 1/4 inch vertical scar with cross hatching." (Incision site w/ stitches?)

How can Armstrong state on the one hand that no scars were found at autopsy when the autopsy report flat out contradicts that claim?

You seem to see it as meaning there are two different people being discussed. If so, that's fine, but where is the autopsy report showing Armstrong's "no scars"?

'm still not 100% sure about this, but this medical evidence seems to indicate it was actually the historic "Harvey" Oswald who was initially stationed at Atsugi- not "Lee", as John Armstrong interpreted.

Among other things, I'd prefer to call him the the theoretical "Harvey" Oswald.

<You know Dr. Henry Kloepfer used to ride around New Orleans on a motorbike visiting twins to study...?> Hum a few bars. Maybe I can fake it.

Hate to admit it... but I can't carry a tune...

So his theory probably needs an overhaul- but may I add that his journey to the Oracle at Delphi was true and courageous-

With whistlestop tours at Conflicted (my own observation of the Kudlaty affair) and Arrogant (inferred from the observations of someone on the periphery of Armstrong's research tentacles at time H & L was being written indicating an inability to take on board constructive criticism and suggestions. This person does remain a "fan" of Armstrong's, and obviously inferences drawn from his comments are my own. But also obviously, I believe them to be accurate).

McWatters' bus, I'm afraid to report, is terminally ill and on its way to bus heaven.

Sean Murphy's Hughes-film man may indeed break the bank (and I'm talking the whole Federal Reserve system!) but it would clinch it to find just one more contemporaneous picture of this person, to help establish some time/whereabouts data.

I still have hopes that fresh eyes may even spot our man Lee Harvey Oswald in the 12:33-12:42 Dealey Plaza photos...

I think some of these young 'uns are capable of showing us a thing or two. Do I think they are an impressive crop? You bet.

But there is always a place for you, Sir, on my Dream Team of Congressional investigators. Sincerely. Your work on the TSBD gang, alongside your efforts in obtaining recordings, photos and transcripts has taken some of us on a quantum leap.

No. Okay. I take it back. For you, I'd stop scratching and carry the lotion, damn it...

<Armstrong then states that no such scars were found at Oswald's autopsy> To be blunter, the sentence should read "Armstrong then states incorrectly..."

He made a dumb mistake! But the .22 derringer-incident scars are not easy to find in Rose's autopsy report.

So his whole construct about "Lee" getting shipped out to Atsugi, while "Harvey" worked at Pfisterer's Dental in New Orleans is likewise incorrect.

The crux of the dual LHOs in the military, to my mind, concerns the 7 recorded medical treatments given for one LHO at the Atsugi Station Hospital from Sept. 16-Oct. 6, 1958- while another LHO is listed on the Marine Corps Unit diaries as setting sail for Taiwan Sept. 14, and present in Taiwan on Oct. 6. Taiwan was also the scene of a shooting incident involving LHO on guard duty, reported by Charles Rhodes (first written about, as I recall, in Edward Epstein's "Legend"); and there is also John Donovan's HSCA account that, while they were in Taiwan, Oswald took numerous photos of US military layouts.

These Unit diaries are on the companion CD that came with John's book.

When I couple that with Philip Corso's private investigation for WC member Richard Russell, which discovered that 2 LHO passports had been issued- confirmed by passport honcho Francis Knight and the FBI's William Sullivan- this tells me there were two Lee Harvey Oswalds.

But my opinion is that John Armstrong mixed & matched "Harvey" and "Lee" backwardsly in several instances.

The basics of the NYC/NO school records fiasco is outlined in my book "Matrix for Assassination" on photopage A40 (WC Exhibits 1384 & 1413) and pp. 187-192. The autumn 1953 NYC records show LHO in attendance for 62 1/2 days (i.e. 13 5-day weeks, from early Sept-mid-Dec), yet the autumn 1953 NO records show LHO graded for General History & Phys. Ed., with a dash mark for English, Social Studies, Gen. Math & Industrial Arts.

The WC NO record (XXII, p. 817) crops out the left-hand side, but John reproduced the full Archives version on his CD, which shows 3 '53-'54 semesters.

Add this up with the various accounts of a 5'6" boy vs. a 4'8" boy; it spells two young teenage LHOs. John's most important interview, in this regard, may be with NO gym teacher Myra DaRouse, who had the 4'8" LHO in her homeroom; I think this is now available on youtube.

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It is nevertheless beneficial, for the overall health of the research community, to have dissenting views given- the "consensus" opinion isn't necessarily the correct one. However, overhauling Armstrong's mammoth research thesis would require a similar expenditure of time, energy & money- I'm not sure that wouldn't be a bit passe, or that it would actually help our understanding of the assassination. Perhaps best done in bits & pieces.

It's true that he tailored much of the non-unequivocal evidence to fit into his thesis- and it doesn't necessarily hold that a doppelganger is the correct explanation for any incident. An example is the Ralph Yates hitchhiker/curtain rod episode of November 20th- maybe Oswald simply skipped out of work that morning. But I find the use of a doppelganger the better explanation.

I prefer to let John's research stand as is- and that one should keep a doppelganger LHO in mind. My own energies are focused on the TSBD, Dal-Tex, DPD & Sheriffs personnel, and Army Intelligence. The most pertinent parts of Armstrong's research as to the assassination itself are the 6th-floor west window man, the Jiffy store episode, and the Tidy Lady Launderette/Tippit murder.

I don't have the energy to engage in debate over the finer points of work such as his, already presented. There is so much new stuff breaking through the surface.

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Quantum leaps? Those things are jumping out like a herd of bullfrogs in summer. It only took me about a year (Duh!) to "get it", despite having all the evidence in front of me, about the lunchroom-encounter myth & 5th-floor Alyea chicken-sighting. It took me 4 separate reads, over about 2 months, of Pat Speer's discovery that Montgomery's bag was way too wide before I caught on. When Jim DiEugenio wrote that Mrs. Reid's office-sighting was questionable at best, that used to be a little too far down the rabbit hole for my tastes. Have they dug a burial plot for McWatters' bus yet?

But I'd feel better if we could use this quantum technology to construct a laser or two. I'm not so sure that the push for a Dallas DA-led Grand Jury is going to get the needed results. The Martin Luther King murder had one, but didn't get any media exposure.

Some of the benefits of what a Grand Jury could achieve- bringing the truth to the public- might also be achieved by, for example, youtube interviews of the approx. 30 conspirators still-living who were in/around Dallas on November 22nd, as well as witnesses who have yet to come forward. We can't simply sit back & expect DA Craig Watkins to shoulder the load & risks.

The media is the key.

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But I admire anyone who takes part in the JFK forums, even as a reader only. We know that President Kennedy was murdered by a "Secret Government"- an evil that had grown enormously since then.

And this modern-day evil's weak spot is the very JFK assassination itself- which is an issue with the potential to inspire little people the world over, and incite them to revolt against the evil "Global Elite".

So, even though at times the hair-splitting among researchers seems to de-evolve into a parlor game, with meaningless deadends- the stakes are extremely high; it's the people vs. the coming "New World Order".

And my feeling is that the Elite will eventually create a world war just to divert attention from the JFK case.