"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[Ed.Ledoux]

Rowland on the left and Senkle middle Senkle right

[Ed.Ledoux]

ROWLAND, ROWLAND, SENKLE

[Michael Welch]

Thank you Ed! You are the gift that just keeps giving! You just gave us a picture of Detective B. L. Senkel  taking the affidavits of Mr. Arnold Rowland and Mr. Ronald B. Fischer on 11-22-63 in the Sheriff's Office proving they are two different people. Thank you so very much for the beautiful picture! Many Cheers, Michael

[Ed.Ledoux]

Pitt your party is about to be upended.
Senkle's pants are PINSTRIPE GREY.



not black or dark. Oh pity.



Please turn your monitor on or adjust the brightness... brightness yeah that's it.

About as bright as Detective SENKLE going to the SHERIFF'S OFFICE to conduct interviews for the SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Good god Welch is that bad.
You're desperate and need to leave.
Ed

[Ed.Ledoux]

Pitt your party is about to be upended.
Senkle's pants are PINSTRIPE GREY.



not black or dark. Oh pity.



Please turn your monitor on or adjust the brightness... brightness yeah that's it.

About as bright as Detective SENKLE going to the SHERIFF'S OFFICE to conduct interviews for the SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Good god Welch is that bad.
You're desperate and need to leave.
Ed


PS



Can you say PLAID?
Barbara could and did.
Oops there goes your ID.



So that's a plaid jacket? Bwahahaha

[Ed.Ledoux]

Det. Senkle ... not plaid but Pinstripes. 

Michael get some glasses.
Have a super evening.
Ed

[Michael Welch]

Come on Ed. Are you hung up about shades again??? Linda Zambanini identified Detective Senkel in the Sheriff's Office in a dark suit. Mr. Rowland does not have his suit coat on in the office. The Rowlands could not even remember which suit he wore for sure on 11-22-63. We do have two Separate People in the Sheriff's Office[Thanks again for the Beautiful Picture], which nullifies anything that you and Bart can come up with. Keep trying though, By the Way, Where are your pictures of Eddie and Troy from the FBI in 1964? Many Cheers, Michael


is Detective Senkel's hat camel colored or black? Oh my goodness Ed, it came out black in the first photograph and camel in the second photograph. Remember that the different cameras and film and filters determine the way the colors came out on 11-22-63. Surely you knew this already.....................


Credit: Linda Zambanini



Credit: Mr. Ed Ledoux    

You have a wonderful evening too! Sincerely yours, Michael

[Ed.Ledoux]

So Michael,
How'd BARBARA ROWLAND get there... ride in the trunk.
HA!

You really think they needed to load BARBARA AND ARNOLD in a car to take them to THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET.

Sorry we ever let you on this forum Michael.
You don't have what it takes and I think your best bet is to pack up your shit and hit the road...

PLAID! utter ridiculousness.

Ed

[greg_parkerAdmin]

I have not followed this latest outbreak. Can someone explain wtf is going on?

Just read the last few posts.

Michael, it is true that Mrs Rowland expressed a lack of certainty about clothing. But your insistance that LZ ID'd Senkel is undermined by her own question mark. Seems to me she is not at all certain.

I will try and catch up on some of your other posts concerning images, Michael. Haven't taken much notice because I have no interest in this game of picking someone in DP and then finding someone famous that they look a bit like and then claiming it must be them. If that is your main area, in all honesty, there are other forums that take it a bit more seriously and where you would receive a better reception. 

The education forum is one such place.

[barto]

And also Bart you continually call Mr. Carl Jones Mr. Roy Edward Lewis throughout this video. For example at the 8:20 mark. If you are really trying to be a truth teller, why wasn't this corrected for the public years ago???? Many Cheers, Michael

"A so called observation and a belief about a photograph accounts for nothing. This type of stuff has been done for decades and in most cases it is just utter rubbish based on a belief.
It does not belong here."----Mr. Bart Kamp April 23, 2022

Was already corrected years ago, you missed a few meets. Now then where is that evidence that you cannot provide for Rowland???
You got nothing.
Enlist at EF sunshine.

[Michael Welch]

Hi Greg and Ed and Bart, There is no Mrs. Rowland in the picture. Where is she Ed? Mr. Shelley, Mr. Arce, and Mr. Williams could have just walked across the street to the Sheriff's Office, yet they rode too. There are no corrections of Prayer Man on Youtube, so maybe you corrected them here years ago Bart, but people like Mr. Larry Rivera and Mr. Roy Edward Lewis are still making them--- I am Mr. Carl Jones. Greg, Linda Zambanini may have put a question mark but she is correct! Ed puts every kind of enlarged photographic straw men out there, and then cries when they are taken apart. Now Bart is crying too when his site is all about photographs! Prayer Man is a photograph! How ironic that corrections cannot be made and errors corrected. Many Cheers, Michael





Larry Rivera Roy Lewis JFK conference Dallas 2016
[size=18]Apr 6, 2017 • Larry Riviera introduces Roy Lewis aka Black door man
is one person that has been previously uninterviewed and never having spoken in public before. He was a co worker with Lee Oswald @ the Texas school book depository.[/size]


Prayer Man
[size=18]Dec 3, 2015 • Multitouch software to present a case that contains a lot of visual media. The software allows the user to display and interact with PDFs, movies and pictures.[/size]

[barto]

Still no evidence to support your bs assertions regarding Rowland in the car. 
My site is about documents, interviews, movies and pix a meeting you seem to have missed as well.

So we either have a LNer troll in here or a seriously delusional CTer and neither have a place here.

[barto]

In this doc, Rowland says that at 1:45 PM he advised an officer about what he had seen and then subsequently went into Decker's office.
How does that rhyme with the footage of Shelley & co at 1:30PM.... go on thrill us with some more delusional BS.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gE0Msue4pwJL8Z1h0ZpO65tpMLxRAl2f/view?usp=sharing


Oh and do not post another belief as I will wipe all your posts, we want to see proof not make believe BS.

[Michael Welch]

So, we have five people taken to give affidavits: Mr. Rowland, Mr. Arce, Mr. Dougherty, Mr. Shelley, and Mr.Williams. They arrive around 1:45pm according to your Mr. Rowland statement, but it could be approximate. Not eveything written down in affidavits is precise you know. Then Mr. Oswald comes in and is seen by Mr. Shelley, Mr. Arce, and Mr. Dougherty around 2pm. It all fits. So, you are wrong about your 1:30pm assumption. Both you and Ed are knowledgeable people, you just have been incorrect. Your Prayer Man website is amazing but your Youtube channel needs to be corrected. I make mistakes all of the time. I will admit them when I make them. How about you and Ed? Many Cheers, Michael  Also, like I told you before a man in blue patrolman drives Mr. Rowland, Mr. Arce, Mr. Shelley, and Mr. Williams in the ABC film, A film of evidence you completely ignored. It is obvious that Detective Senkel and Detective Brown drove Mr. Dougherty. There is a car that pulls away first from the TSBD steps. Thus, this explains why we do not see Mr. Dougherty, yet he is there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. BROWN. I talked to Captain Fritz and I asked him what he wanted me to do. He said for me and Detective B.L. Senkel to gather up--there was about five employees there on the sixth floor, with him, and take them to city hall and get affidavits from those people, where they were at the time of the shooting.
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.
Mr. BROWN. Where they were at the time of the shooting, and what they were doing, what they heard or saw during this incident.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go do that then?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You left the sixth floor right then?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; Detective Senkel and I took these employees to the city hall, and in this group of employees I was talking to a Mr. Shelley, and got an affidavit from him, when the officers brought in Lee Harvey Oswald.
And there were several cameramen following these boys also in front of them, and they opened the door to where I was interviewing; Mr. Shelley looked up and he said, "Well, that is Oswald. He works for us. He is one of my boys."
Mr. BELIN. What did you do or say?
Mr. BROWN. We got up and got out of the room so they could put Oswald in there in the room we were using.
We just had two small interview rooms there, and I let them put him in there.
Then as we got outside, of course, the phones were ringing. I answered the phone. It was Captain Fritz. He was still at the scene on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository, and I told him that the officers had just brought in a suspect that had shot the police officer, and told him about Mr. Shelley telling me that this boy that was identified was Lee Harvey Oswald, was also an employee there.
He said, "I will be right up in a few minutes."
Mr. BELIN. Where was Captain Fritz at this time?
Mr. BROWN. He was still at the scene of the shooting, at the Texas School Book Depository. He called from there.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. I told him it looked like we might have the boy that was responsible for that. He said, "Okay, I will be up in a few minutes."
Mr. BELIN. What did you mean by "that," for the assassination?
Mr. BROWN. For the President's assassination. That was my own personal opinion at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. Then after the confusion died down a little bit, I got Mr. Shelley back in another room, the other room that was not occupied at this time, and finished my affidavit with him in regard to what he did, saw, or heard at the time of the assassination.
Mr. BELIN. All right, did Shelley say anything more about Oswald at the time you talked to him?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; after he mentioned that he was an employee there, that he had been training him--see, I had taken the affidavit from him in regard to what he was doing personally--then after they bring Oswald in, he tells me that he was responsible for him and was his own personal supervisor. I immediately got an affidavit from him in conjunction with what his work consisted of,

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when he was employed, and what he was doing, and what type work he did there.



Mr. POTTS. Yes sir; that was my day off.
Mr. BALL. And did you hear on the radio the President had been shot?
Mr. POTTS. Well, my wife and I had gone to the cleaners up there at Jim Miller and Military, and I suppose it was around 12:30 or a quarter to 1--around 1 o'clock and we pulled up in front of the cleaners there and Mr. Wright at the barbershop came out to the car and he said, "Have you heard about the President getting shot?"
You know, I thought he was joking and I thought he was kidding and I turned on my car radio and there it was.
We went on back home and I called the office immediately and talked to Detective Baker, he's a lieutenant now, and he said he was calling all the men back and I started to get dressed--get ready, and I told him I would be there as soon as I could, and I got dressed and got there within the hour, which was around 2 or before.
Mr. BALL. What did you do when you first got there?
Mr. POTTS. When I was walking across the street there, I parked my car over at the Scottish Rite parking lot there and it's the Masonic lot and when I come across the street there at Commerce and Harwood this officer on the corner there said, "Did you hear about Tippit getting killed?" I said, "No; I didn't hear about that." He said, "Yes; I understand he got killed on a disturbance call over in Oak Cliff." That's the first I had heard about Tippit and when I got to the office, I walked in and Baker told me, "We have some people here from the Texas School Book Depository--there are four or five of them back there," and he said, "Would you go back there and take some affidavits from them?" And I said, "Sure," and I went back there and took one from this Arce, and I was in the process of taking one from this Jack Dougherty when I heard some officers coming in the door there, and I heard one of them say, "We've got the man that killed Tippit."
So, they brought him on back in while we were sitting back in the squadroom and I was sitting back there with Dougherty and Arce, and they came by and put him in the side interrogation room back there. As you walk in the door, there is an interrogation room right straight ahead and then you turn right to

196

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go back in the squadroom and you go on back in the squadroom, and this Mr. Dougherty looked at me and he said, "I know that man."
He said, "He works down there in that building--the Texas School Book Depository Building." He said, "I don't know his name, but I know him." So did Arce he said, "Yes, he works down there."
So, I went ahead and took those affidavits from them--from those people and we got them notarized.
Mr. BALL. You mean Arce and Dougherty?
Mr. POTTS. Arce and Dougherty. There were some more officers back there taking affidavits from some of the others--some of those other people I don't know--you know, time and all the confusion around there, you don't exactly know what time, but my partner, Bill Senkel, and F. M. Turner--we work a three-man squad, and Bill came around and he talked to Captain Fritz, and he said "Come on, let's go. We are going out to 1026 North Beckley."
He came around and told me, he said--he asked me if I had finished taking the affidavits, and I told him, "Yes," and he said, "Captain Fritz wants you and I to go out to Oswald's or Hidell's or Oswald's room."
On his person--he must have had--he did have identification with the name Alex Hidell and Oswald---Lee Harvey Oswald, but Lt. E. L. Cunningham of the forgery bureau, who used to be a member of the homicide and robbery bureau before he made lieutenant, he went with us and we went out there.


Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, had you been assigned a special duty, in view of the President's visit to Dallas?
Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; I had--after I got to work.
Mr. BALL. At what time was that?
Mr. STOVALL. It was around 2 o'clock--I was watching television that morning and heard the deal on television.
Mr. BALL. You were not on duty at the time the President was shot?
Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You went to work at 2 o'clock?
Mr. STOVALL. Well, I was scheduled to go to work at 4 that day, I believe, but as soon as I heard that I got cleaned up and got ready for work and went on in.
Mr. BALL. Were you given an assignment as soon as you got down there?
Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I wasn't--as soon as I got there. I got there and one of my partners, G. F. Rose, got there about the same time. We were talking to a witness that had seen all the people standing out there--he didn't actually see anything, so we didn't even take an affidavit from him because he didn't see anything. While talking to him, the officers brought Lee Harvey Oswald into the Homicide Bureau and put him into an interrogation room we have there at the bureau. After we finished talking to this witness, we went back there and talked to him briefly.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said to him and what he said to you?
Mr. STOVALL. I don't recall exactly--I went in and asked him for his identification, asked him who he was and he said his name was Lee Oswald, as well as I remember. 

[barto]

Your condescending tone is duly noted.

"They arrive around 1:45pm according to your Mr. Rowland statement"
Not THEY, but HE! 
And he does not arrive, but he talks to a police officer first THEN goes to Decker's. So by the time he is inside it will be closer to 2 PM!
If you misinterpret evidence like that then you sure as shit make mistake after mistake.


Bonnie Ray Williams
http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/FBI-62-109060-JFK-HQ-File-Section-EBF-Serial-2720-2.png



Shelley
http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/FBI-Letter-from-Director-of-03-Apr-1964-re-TSBD-Employee-Statments-1.jpg



Any questions about my "assumptions"????

[Michael Welch]

Sorry if I offended you! So Mr. Williams says around 1pm; Mr. Shelley says around 1:30pm. Did they go in different cars??? The time element all works out. Around 2pm, Mr. Arce, Mr. Dougherty, and Mr. Shelley see Mr. Oswald and are still there. Whether they left at 1:30 or 1:45 really does not make any difference. Many Cheers, Michael

[Ed.Ledoux]

Michael Welch again you're wrong wrong wrong, couldn't get more wrong. I suggest doing research then posting.




See crew cut vs hair on Senkle's head... of course you don't troll..

Get lost.
Ed LeDoux

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Michael Welch again you're wrong wrong wrong, couldn't get more wrong. I suggest doing research then posting.




See crew cut vs hair on Senkle's head... of course you don't troll.

Get lost.
Ed LeDoux

C'mon Ed. He was outside in the wind which was blowing his toupee nearly off his head.

[Ed.Ledoux]

Yes two guys with close cut hair and white shirts n black ties.... must be the same... it's only what every male in 60s appearance was.
Aye curumba
I'd go for a toup' flap on the ride across the street.
Why hadn't I seen it before.

[Michael Welch]

Hi Ed and Bart, I just found this screen shot showing the DPD Officer in blue driving Mr. Shelley, Mr. Arce, Mr. Williams, and Mr. Rowland. Notice it is not Detective C. W. Brown driving like you have said and Detectives Senkel and Brown say in their untrue affidavits that you have relied on and trusted. Like I have told you before Bart, your Prayer Man site is amazing!!!!! Many Cheers, Michael


Credit: Mr. Bart Kamp


Credit: Mr. Bart Kamp:" C..W. Brown on the third floor corridor just outside the Robbery and Homicide office where Oswald has just been transferred to and can be overheard demanding “Hygienic Rights” Nov 23 1963. Screen grab B.K."



Credit: Linda Zambanini

[Ed.Ledoux]

Mr. BALL. Where is the last place you saw Givens?
Mr. TRULY. The last place I remember seeing Givens was in the middle of
the crossing, in the middle of Houston Street.
Mr. BALL. Walking in which direction?
Mr. TRULY. Walking east.
Mr. BALL. Walking east on the north side of Elm?
Mr. TRULY. North side of Elm-he had not completely crossed the street-
Houston Street.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2#

I remember seeing Lee come from the dock area on the side of the building, before we had gone in,
and walk up the street beside the TSBD building.
And there was so many things going on and he walked up and went across Houston Street ...and I lost him in the crowd.


So similar is Buell mistaking the rumor of Givens for his later memory of Lee leaving...
Givens walked up to the building and even Truly admits to seeing him, in a twisted way.

[Jake_Sykes]

Just to revisit the PM imagery and reiterate the point that Oswald liked to stand with his arms crossed and shoulder dropped. It appears to me his habit was to do so when he was standing idle and not engaged in a specific hands-on activity. These are examples of his posing for photos and also while standing on the landing of the TSBD and absorbing the facts of the assassination that had happened mere seconds beforehand:

[barto]

Doyle does not agree w you Jake.
Like anyone besides the halfwit gives a f*ck

[steely_dan]

Credible moderation would force Doyle to answer the question of the missing tits. He will no doubt claim Stanton had udders....and this will become a fact.

[Jake_Sykes]

Doyle does not agree w you Jake.
Like anyone besides the halfwit gives a f

It's time to start worrying when Doyle starts to agree with you. That's when you know you must have said something really dumb.

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