"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

• Mrs Reid told her that the officer who was first to enter, ran in to the lunch room where Truly and Oswald were "evidently lunching".
  
  
• The officer put his gun into Oswald's stomach but Truly advised him that Oswald was an employee.
  

This is turning into Rashomon. So in this iteration, Oswald is not outside, he's in the dominoroom, what's more, Truly is not outside, he too is in the domino room. 

That's an interesting thought,but raises some questions, 1. is there any record of TSBD employees calling domino room "lunch room"? 2. In Darnell gif, key on white hat of the dude staring up, now just to the right of that you see Baker just about run over some old guy in a suit, so that's not Truly?  3. How weird is it that Mrs. Reid would say (assuming Mrs. Sanders heard her correctly) that Truly was inside with Oswald when her own testimony was she was standing next to Truly by the street?

It was always Rashomon. It's just that everyone has been encouraged to view just the Hollywood B grade version which gives only one perspective -- which turns out to be that of the cover-up artists...

To get to the facts, I believe it's necessary to work with the earliest memories and iterations.

The Bookhout/Hosty report has Oswald referring to the first floor lunchroom. If Oswald called it that, I'm sure others must have.

If Truly was with Oswald, one thing that happens is that the question about how Oswald was was manipulated (that is, how he could have been prevented from going outside etc and voiding his utility as a patsy) is answered.

As for Reid... it may be that she was never outside either. Both Reid and sanders claim to have had the exact same conversation with Campbell. (Reid/Sanders saying the shots came from the building - Campbell replying - no - came from embankment). Did Reid steal those lines in order to place herself outside? Is there anything we should be suspicious about in regard to her claiming to run back inside the building and not be able to explain why, given she believed the shots came from there? Or does she need to go back inside in order to "see" Oswald?

Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know.  

I also find it of possible interest that her husband was in the County Records building listening to broadcast of the motorcade and keeping his wife informed of how late it was running. 

Mrs. REID. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late. But I went down rather soon and stood on the steps. 

I do acknowledge this could be perfectly innocent and only looks suspicious with hindsight along with other data to place beside it.  

Truly writing Mrs Reid's name down at the very bottom of his affidavit may also be quite innocent. But offhand, I can't think of any reason for it, unless to validate (or "validate") Oswald being on the second floor.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/01/0120-003.gif

As Sean pointed out - ain't it something that the only three talking about Oswald encounters were all allegedly standing together outside?

[ianlloyd]

Sean Murphy posted this on the EF:

On December 23^rd 1963, Dallas Police Captain Will Fritz wrote a letter to Police Chief Jesse Curry in which he outlined the case against the late Lee Harvey Oswald. Amongst Fritz’s points we find the following statement:
 
[T]his man [Oswald] had been stopped by Officer M. L. Baker while coming down the stairs. Mr. Baker says that he stopped this man on the third or fourth floor on the stairway, but as Mr. Truly identified him as one of the employees, he was released.

I've bolded and underlined the interesting portion...

[ianlloyd]

Lee has been in touch with me and as result of those exchanges, I propose the following scenario (time has gotten away, so i will not provide citations right now):

Truly ate lunch with Oswald in the domino room - the purpose of which was to keep him out of sight. Oswald went up for a coke after lunch (but just prior to the assassination). When he returned, Truly was still inside.  At that point, Baker runs in asking who works there so he can be directed to an elevator. Following Baker in is Campbell - not Truly.  Truly steps forward and leads the way up - the purpose of which is to prevent Baker from arresting the actual sniper. On the 4th floor, Baker encounters either Dougherty or an UNSUB, and releases him on Truly's word.

Devil’s Advocate here:

If Truly were in the lunchroom, why would neither Oswald nor the black employees Jarman and Norman say so when questioned?  Per the Captain’s notes, Oswald clearly told Fritz about “Junior” Jarman and another small black man in the Domino room.  Why not include Truly if he had been there? 

Oswald presumably had no reason to suspect Truly of any involvement in the assassination.  Nor did Jarman and Norman.  Invoking his name would be exculpatory to Oswald, if it were true.

When the latter two were asked about who was in the Domino room during lunchtime as they were present, it was said somebody else was likely present, identity un-recalled.

Would Truly not stand out to them in a way their coworkers would not, just by virtue of his being far higher on the corporate ladder?

Did Truly or others testify that Truly usually ate in the Domino room too?

If he did not, but did eat lunch there on 11/22, would that not have stuck out as unusual in the minds of underlings who were present, or noticed it as they walked past the Domino room?

As for the hypothetical misidentification of Truly in TSBD film footage and photos, I’d like to hear more about that when it’s convenient.

Truly vouching for Dougherty is an interesting thought.  It could and would be interpreted as an innocent gesture, even if it was not.

Would Truly really have used the Domino Room to eat his lunch??

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Sean Murphy posted this on the EF:

On December 23^rd 1963, Dallas Police Captain Will Fritz wrote a letter to Police Chief Jesse Curry in which he outlined the case against the late Lee Harvey Oswald. Amongst Fritz’s points we find the following statement:
 
[T]his man [Oswald] had been stopped by Officer M. L. Baker while coming down the stairs. Mr. Baker says that he stopped this man on the third or fourth floor on the stairway, but as Mr. Truly identified him as one of the employees, he was released.

I've bolded and underlined the interesting portion...

Ian,

I think the quote was also posted here:
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t68-baker-s-hsca-interview-shows-he-was-given-his-later-story

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Lee has been in touch with me and as result of those exchanges, I propose the following scenario (time has gotten away, so i will not provide citations right now):

Truly ate lunch with Oswald in the domino room - the purpose of which was to keep him out of sight. Oswald went up for a coke after lunch (but just prior to the assassination). When he returned, Truly was still inside.  At that point, Baker runs in asking who works there so he can be directed to an elevator. Following Baker in is Campbell - not Truly.  Truly steps forward and leads the way up - the purpose of which is to prevent Baker from arresting the actual sniper. On the 4th floor, Baker encounters either Dougherty or an UNSUB, and releases him on Truly's word.

Devil’s Advocate here:

If Truly were in the lunchroom, why would neither Oswald nor the black employees Jarman and Norman say so when questioned?  Per the Captain’s notes, Oswald clearly told Fritz about “Junior” Jarman and another small black man in the Domino room.  Why not include Truly if he had been there? 

Oswald presumably had no reason to suspect Truly of any involvement in the assassination.  Nor did Jarman and Norman.  Invoking his name would be exculpatory to Oswald, if it were true.

When the latter two were asked about who was in the Domino room during lunchtime as they were present, it was said somebody else was likely present, identity un-recalled.

Would Truly not stand out to them in a way their coworkers would not, just by virtue of his being far higher on the corporate ladder?

Did Truly or others testify that Truly usually ate in the Domino room too?

If he did not, but did eat lunch there on 11/22, would that not have stuck out as unusual in the minds of underlings who were present, or noticed it as they walked past the Domino room?

As for the hypothetical misidentification of Truly in TSBD film footage and photos, I’d like to hear more about that when it’s convenient.

Truly vouching for Dougherty is an interesting thought.  It could and would be interpreted as an innocent gesture, even if it was not.

Would Truly really have used the Domino Room to eat his lunch??

To be honest, I don't think so. I think Sanders was told about Oswald being accosted by Baker in a lunchroom and Truly intervening. Sanders took Truly's presence and ran with an assumption based on that - result: "evidently they were lunching". 

But that doesn't mean Truly wasn't there. In at least two iterations of the encounter, Truly is right there - unlike the final version where he is ahead and runs back. And don't forget Baker's initial statement has Truly on the first floor when he enters - not following him in.

[beowulf]

Was Reid covering for Truly or was Truly covering for Reid?

Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade... they [her husband's office]  were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late....

Wasn't the parade actually running 5 minutes late (hitting Dealey Plaza at 12:30 instead of 12:25)?  Maybe Reid was was still eating lunch in the same lunch room (whether on 1st or 2nd floor) as LHO, thinking she had another 5 minutes before the motorcade arrived. I wonder when Mrs. Reid passed on (assuming she has), maybe she's Groden's mystery witness.
Of course I'm starting to think Groden really has a mythical witness, has he decided to hold out for the 60th anniversary to publish details of his revelation?

[James DiEugenio]

If anyone had reservations about Ray Carroll, they should not anymore.

He is leading the charge to preserve the Baker, Truly Oswald meet up on the second floor.

He invokes the names of the hallowed first generation writers: Sauvage, Meagher,  and the he kerplunks in there Wesiberg.

He does not note that Weisberg is the only one who had Baker's first day affidavit.  And that he tried to make something out of it.  Unfortunately, he was not successful in that foray, and then laid off of it.

But if others had had this affidavit,  plus the full story on VIctoria Adams, plus the film of Prayer Man, would that not have changed the calculus somewhat?

God what a sinkhole Simkin's site has become.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Was Reid covering for Truly or was Truly covering for Reid?

Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade... they [her husband's office]  were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late....

Wasn't the parade actually running 5 minutes late (hitting Dealey Plaza at 12:30 instead of 12:25)?  Maybe Reid was was still eating lunch in the same lunch room (whether on 1st or 2nd floor) as LHO, thinking she had another 5 minutes before the motorcade arrived. I wonder when Mrs. Reid passed on (assuming she has), maybe she's Groden's mystery witness.
Of course I'm starting to think Groden really has a mythical witness, has he decided to hold out for the 60th anniversary to publish details of his revelation?

How late it was running is open to conjecture because first you have to pinpoint when it was actually due to leave Love Field. If you can find that, I'll name my next kid Beowulf!

Here's the best I could come up with (after some revision). 
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t273-the-motorcade-timeline

[GuestGuest]

I'm not a big fan of speculation but the Prayer Man thread has had my head doing overtime.

Something has never really sat right with me concerning Lee Oswald's movements and actions that day.  I believe his character, his background and his interests would have necessitated him wanting to see the President ride by. 

On Thursday night Oswald left the TSBD with Buell Wesley Frazier.  Much has been made of the change of day that he normally travelled (which is an absolute crock due to the fact that Oswald had no real pattern of travelling to Irving). The official narrative tells us he went on Thursday night to get the rifle under the ruse of getting curtain rods.

He was picked up the next morning by Frazier carrying an oversized brown grocery bag.  To contain a rifle it was too small and to simply contain a cheese sandwich and apple it was a bit too big.

Prayer Man is peculiar because of his pose where he seems to be holding onto something with both hands and light is reflecting back off something he is holding.

What if...




What if he went back to Irving to get his camera on Thursday night, then carried it to work in his oversized brown grocery bag along with his lunch, and even though Roy Truly tried his best to keep the designated patsy inside the building the budding photographer just had to get one photo of the passing President.

I have always been suspicious that Oswald did not go outside to see the parade because of his background and interest in history and current events and if he took anything with him to work that day that he needed to retrieve from Irving wouldn't it have been his camera?  Oswald was a keen photographer and took photographs of many different things, events and people from all over the world.  I do not believe he would have let this opportunity pass him by sitting in a lunchroom...

...my money is on Prayer Man being Oswald and it certainly explains quite a bit of the outstanding narrative and missing pieces if we run from that supposition.

Hope you are all well

[Hasan Yusuf]

Welcome back, Lee. A very interesting idea there about Oswald getting his camera. Hope you've been well too.

Hasan.

[GuestGuest]

I have gone through every single available photograph and film still available that depicts the exterior of the TSBD during the motorcade route.  Roy Truly, as well and Mrs. Reid, were very specific about their location during the time the motorcade went by and they do not appear within any of the available photographs when they should.  Truly should be easy to spot because he was wearing a black suit, black tie, black hat and wore glasses.  He claims he was with Ochus Campbell who I believe is depicted in the Cooper film and was wearing the same outfit as well as glasses.  They do not appear where they said they were stood.

The problems with Truly's story concerning his location are ten-fold.  When asked by counsel to mark his position on CE 621 using an "I" the only marks that exist are not where he states he was stood.  In fact Mrs. Reid was also asked to provide her location on CE621 and no mark exists in relation to the dialogue that takes place between her and David Belin.

When interviewed by William Manchester for his book Death of a President, Roy Truly claimed that from where he was stood the crowd surged backwards towards the TSBD steps and separated him from O.V. Campbell.  Didn't happen.

After having private conversations with Greg I now think the main contender for Roy Truly watching the parade is the Black Tie Man with face in shadow behind Lovelady from the Altgens photograph.  Same shaped collar, same pencil thin black tie.  Perfect position to protect the patsy stood in the corner...

 


 

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Lee,

Martin Hinrich's close up crop is the first time I've noticed the reflection at face level.

I could be a camera lens reflection. But it could also be a coke bottle reflection. Either at some stage are going to end up at face level.

[GuestGuest]

Lee,

Martin Hinrich's close up crop is the first time I've noticed the reflection at face level.

I could be a camera lens reflection. But it could also be a coke bottle reflection. Either at some stage are going to end up at face level.

I noticed that last night, Greg.  That's a great stabilised series of shots that Martin has pieced together by removing the blurred images.

Either coke or camera something is making "Prayer Man" stand in an unusual position.  Knowing how the Imperial Reflex operated (unlike Marina Oswald) I would say it is a solution that ticks some boxes.

The longer I have studied this case and the more convinced I have become that Oswald knew nothing whatsoever about the pending assassination of JFK.  I base this upon my suspicions that he was performing low-level informer activities for Jim Hosty and I cannot now comprehend that anybody involved in the assassination mechanics would bring Lee Oswald in to the plot when he was the designated Patsy.  I think his work involved something associated with observing Joe Molina (and as was the case in many situations Joe Molina observing Oswald) and due to Oswald's background I see the information he was possibly gathering being connected to the activities of the CPUSA, GIForum and the ACLU.

It may seem like a small reason but the one thing that pushes me in the direction of believing that Oswald is completely innocent of any wrongdoing that day and having no knowledge of any plot against the President was his midnight press conference when he spilled the beans concerning not having anybody within the Dallas Police Department mention to him anything about the assassination.  It was only after this press conference did his attitude change, one can witness the look of being punched in the stomach and his cries of "patsy" began in the corridor.  Remember, at this point in time, if indeed Oswald was "Prayer Man" he did not know how, when or specifically where the assassination took place and we dont know whether he had even been informed during this period that the President had died.  If he had prior knowledge of the assassination I would not have expected to see this change so suddenly as, IMO, someone with prior knowledge would have a sneaking suspicion that something bad was happening to them at even being lifted at the point in time that he was lifted.

We'll never know what was going through Oswald's head during those intial hours and days in custody but IMO his reaching out to John Hurt was a last ditch attempt for help but I really believe whatever procedure he was following in trying to call an old Nags Head contact was an old one from his Russian excursion and not any operational emergency protocol related to current events.  FWIW.

Regarding the camera - - knowing all we know about this guy in so far as he was very much a vibrant three dimensional personality and not the one dimensional clown that other parties paint him as, I would be very surprised if Oswald did not take his camera to work that day.  Let's look at this within the context of the times, the life Oswald had led and the places he had been, his possible admiration for JFK, and his passionate interest in photography and can we really take on board the idea that Oswald (if he had no involvement in the assassination whatsoever) would not take his camera to work with him that day and instead sit alone in the lunchroom as history passed by his building.  I don't buy it and it is a possible and intruiging reason for asking Frazier to take him to Irving the day before.

Is this another reason why the Imperial Reflex went missing until December 8th, 1963, only to be mysteriously "found" by Ruth Paine and instead of being handed to the FBI was instead handed to Robert Oswald?  Was it because he had this camera with him at work that day?  I don't know but things are beginning to really make sense to me concerning Oswald and his activities in the run-up to 12:30PM on 11/22.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Lee,

one thing in favour of it being a camera is his almost completely still posture. 

As for the rest of your post - I think he was definitely meeting someone at the TT and that needs to be part of any consideration.

[GuestGuest]

Lee,

one thing in favour of it being a camera is his almost completely still posture. 

As for the rest of your post - I think he was definitely meeting someone at the TT and that needs to be part of any consideration.

I know and I know your reasons for believing this was so.  It makes sense and ticks many boxes.  But if a meeting was to take place at the TT it does not necessarily mean it was assassination related from the perspective of him knowing anything about it prior to it occurring but if he was working for Hosty and his work involved something that was happening in the TSBD then maybe his meeting was related to things he had seen and the people he had been associating with?

I'll stop short of calling 
You an Oswald
Accuser

[GuestGuest]

Sorry, I don'y buy the idea that Truly was at the top of the steps. TSBD employee Carl Jones, in WC Exhibit 1381 at XXII p. 657, says he was "sitting on the front steps" and "with me were" Truly, Campbell, Mrs. Reid and Lovelady. Jones was probably mistaken about Lovelady, but I'm doubtful he was mistaken about the others.

Truly told the FBI (WC Exhibit 1381) that "I was standing in the street with Mr. Campbell just in front of the building entrance".  His testimony clarified (III, p. 219) that "We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of Elm Street". For my money Truly is the guy Officer Baker bumps into in the Darnell film, during his dash to the front steps.

And, Ochus Campbell is very probably the guy on the right-hand side of the middle picture in that picture-set just posted. These were taken on the 1st floor shortly after Truly & Baker got down from the roof.

[Goban_Saor]

Lee’s thesis makes a lot of sense. The possibility of the Prayer Man being Oswald holding a camera seems worth pursuing.

However, I see one possible problem with this. If Prayer Man was an entirely innocent Oswald intent only on taking pictures of the presidential motorcade – or indeed any other innocent person similarly intent – you’d think they’d rush out of the vestibule when the shots were fired to capture pictures of this momentous event.


However, there is a possible solution to this problem that is largely consistent with Lee’s thesis (Oswald having no foreknowledge of the assassination) and indeed a pre-ordered meeting at the Texas Theatre: The fact that Prayer Man doesn’t leave the vestibule to take pictures of the assassination might be consistent with a low level ‘expendable agent’ being ordered on a need-to-know basis to discreetly take pictures of whatever was visible of the motorcade from where he was told to stand.

[GuestGuest]

Sorry, I don'y buy the idea that Truly was at the top of the steps. TSBD employee Carl Jones, in WC Exhibit 1381 at XXII p. 657, says he was "sitting on the front steps" and "with me were" Truly, Campbell, Mrs. Reid and Lovelady. Jones was probably mistaken about Lovelady, but I'm doubtful he was mistaken about the others.

Truly told the FBI (WC Exhibit 1381) that "I was standing in the street with Mr. Campbell just in front of the building entrance".  His testimony clarified (III, p. 219) that "We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of Elm Street". For my money Truly is the guy Officer Baker bumps into in the Darnell film, during his dash to the front steps.

And, Ochus Campbell is very probably the guy on the right-hand side of the middle picture in that picture-set just posted. These were taken on the 1st floor shortly after Truly & Baker got down from the roof.

Richard,

If I could find one photograph from the motorcade snaps from Elm Street depicting two men together wearing suits and ties then I would agree with you.  The fact is, I can't.  Now, of course, that doesn't mean they weren't there, it simply means they weren't captured on film.  But the fact is, given where the claimed they were, they should show up but they don't.  The only photograph showing two men wearing hats and suits are the two men situated outside the County Records Buidling on the corner of Houston and Elm (the photo that some researchers claimed was Rip Robertson).

If you can try your hand at deciphering CE 361 then another pair of eyes wouldn't go amiss.  There are two marks that could be an "I" on that exhibit.  One is immediately west of the TSBD steps (Truly says he wasn't there) and the other is on the opposite side of Elm Street (Truly says he wasn't there) so I don't know what was going on when he marked this or even whether its the right exhibit put into the volumes.  One things for certain, something is amiss.

Carl Jones actually supports the idea of Truly being on the steps.  He does not make claims that Truly, Campbell and Reid all left for a different location.  What makes you think he was mistaken about Lovelady?

I think Truly may appear in Darnell too but I think he may be a different person to the one Sean Murphy thinks it is.  The guy in the suit walking with his back to camera and is almost stood at the bottom step. Is this the same guy you had in mind? Of course, we are all guessing here, but Truly, IMO, was most certainly on the lookout that day and the minute he sees a cop approaching he is up those steps in time to divert attention away from "Prayer Man" by announcing he is the building supervisor.  If this is Truly in the Darnell film it does not stop him being black tie man in the Altgens photograph.  There is too much cloak and dagger material existing in the record for me to believe Truly was where he said he was, there is an absence of pictorial evidence, and we have both Truly and Reid answering questions almost verbatim that none of the lawyers asked during their testimony.

Too many problems exist with Truly for me take the word of Reid and Campbell, and in addition Jones does not back up Truly being on the Elm Street curbside.  Also, bear in mind the "surge of people" he claimed occured when he was interviewed by Manchester that pushed its way back all the way to the steps.  Didn't happen.  That would have to be some surge of people from Elm Street to the Elm Street steps.  The photographic record proves this is utter BS.

ADDENDUM:

Classic Mrs. Robert Reid testimony:

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?
Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.
Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?
Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
***********************
Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else of people running or doing anything else?
Mrs. REID. No; because I ran into the building. I do not recall seeing anyone in the lobby. I ran up to our office.

The main problem I have with Reid is she was sat eating lunch alongside Joe Molina who we know was connected to Jim Hosty, the GI Forum and by extension the CPUSA, and William Lowery.  I find her lack of candour during her testimony as to who was in the lunchroom with her very concerning.

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

The longer I have studied this case and the more convinced I have become that Oswald knew nothing whatsoever about the pending assassination of JFK.  I base this upon my suspicions that he was performing low-level informer activities for Jim Hosty and I cannot now comprehend that anybody involved in the assassination mechanics would bring Lee Oswald in to the plot when he was the designated Patsy.  I think his work involved something associated with observing Joe Molina (and as was the case in many situations Joe Molina observing Oswald) and due to Oswald's background I see the information he was possibly gathering being connected to the activities of the CPUSA, GIForum and the ACLU.

It may seem like a small reason but the one thing that pushes me in the direction of believing that Oswald is completely innocent of any wrongdoing that day and having no knowledge of any plot against the President was his midnight press conference when he spilled the beans concerning not having anybody within the Dallas Police Department mention to him anything about the assassination.  It was only after this press conference did his attitude change, one can witness the look of being punched in the stomach and his cries of "patsy" began in the corridor.  Remember, at this point in time, if indeed Oswald was "Prayer Man" he did not know how, when or specifically where the assassination took place and we dont know whether he had even been informed during this period that the President had died.  If he had prior knowledge of the assassination I would not have expected to see this change so suddenly as, IMO, someone with prior knowledge would have a sneaking suspicion that something bad was happening to them at even being lifted at the point in time that he was lifted.

We'll never know what was going through Oswald's head during those intial hours and days in custody but IMO his reaching out to John Hurt was a last ditch attempt for help but I really believe whatever procedure he was following in trying to call an old Nags Head contact was an old one from his Russian excursion and not any operational emergency protocol related to current events.  FWIW.

Welcome back, Lee.  You've been missed.

I agree that Oswald played no witting part in the assassination, because one doesn't inform the intended patsy of too much in advance.

Howerver, re: LHO's possible foreknowledge, given so much that is still unknown, we must leave open the possibility that he WAS a street level informant, and that he HAD learned something about a planned assassination attempt.  It would perhaps help explain his note to Hosty prior to 11/22, and may also tie into the San Antonio warning. 

Moreoever, arguendo let's assume this to be true.  Whoever is "running" him may well have said, "Great, we're keeping an eye on the plotters.  When we catch them in the act, you'll be acknowledged for your efforts."

Such a scenario would also help explain why he went to his rooming house to retrieve his handgun only AFTER the assassination when he realized he may not be as safe as he'd anticipated, and his decision to catch a movie - in which he moved from seat to seat as though trying to connect with someone he'd likely never met before - in a pre-arranged fallback meeting spot.  (In such an instance, persons unknown to each other can verify each other's bona fides by carrying things like product boxtops, or perhaps an American Bakeries pay stub.  In any event, they would each have something odd but mundane that the other was told about, to confirm the person they're meeting is the one they're supposed to meet.  Without such confirmation.... AWKWARD.)

If the above is tenable, there are few choices as to what didn't go according to what Oswald anticipated:

*  Whoever was running him tried to prevent the assassination and failed.

*  Whoever was running him didn't try to prevent the assassination, because he/they was/were part of the plot.

*  Whoever was running him phoned to inform DPD that he was in the balcony of the Texas Theater, while LHO was there trying to find his contact.

Hence the comments uttered in sad resignation, "this is it" upon arrest, and "Now everyone will know who I am" while in Fritz's custody, as though his cover would now be blown.  Such a scenario would also rationalize the small amounts of money he was obtaining via Western Union, and why that fact had to be buried.

How would we expect Oswald to comport himself once he realized that nobody was coming to his aid, and that suspicion for two murders had fallen upon him?  The John Hurt call was a last ditch attempt to rally aid from his superiors.  When that didn't go through, one suspects Oswald suddenly knew just how well and truly stitched up he was, and that no assistance would be forthcoming. 

Perhaps I am reading into an Oswald comment something that isn't there, but when he stated to the press that he was waiting for "someone to come forward" and help him with legal representation, I have always heard what I think is extra emphasis on "someone," as though referring to a party he thought WOULD come to his aid, but hadn't and didn't.

FWIW.....

[GuestGuest]

The longer I have studied this case and the more convinced I have become that Oswald knew nothing whatsoever about the pending assassination of JFK.  I base this upon my suspicions that he was performing low-level informer activities for Jim Hosty and I cannot now comprehend that anybody involved in the assassination mechanics would bring Lee Oswald in to the plot when he was the designated Patsy.  I think his work involved something associated with observing Joe Molina (and as was the case in many situations Joe Molina observing Oswald) and due to Oswald's background I see the information he was possibly gathering being connected to the activities of the CPUSA, GIForum and the ACLU.

It may seem like a small reason but the one thing that pushes me in the direction of believing that Oswald is completely innocent of any wrongdoing that day and having no knowledge of any plot against the President was his midnight press conference when he spilled the beans concerning not having anybody within the Dallas Police Department mention to him anything about the assassination.  It was only after this press conference did his attitude change, one can witness the look of being punched in the stomach and his cries of "patsy" began in the corridor.  Remember, at this point in time, if indeed Oswald was "Prayer Man" he did not know how, when or specifically where the assassination took place and we dont know whether he had even been informed during this period that the President had died.  If he had prior knowledge of the assassination I would not have expected to see this change so suddenly as, IMO, someone with prior knowledge would have a sneaking suspicion that something bad was happening to them at even being lifted at the point in time that he was lifted.

We'll never know what was going through Oswald's head during those intial hours and days in custody but IMO his reaching out to John Hurt was a last ditch attempt for help but I really believe whatever procedure he was following in trying to call an old Nags Head contact was an old one from his Russian excursion and not any operational emergency protocol related to current events.  FWIW.

Welcome back, Lee.  You've been missed.

I agree that Oswald played no witting part in the assassination, because one doesn't inform the intended patsy of too much in advance.

Howerver, re: LHO's possible foreknowledge, given so much that is still unknown, we must leave open the possibility that he WAS a street level informant, and that he HAD learned something about a planned assassination attempt.  It would perhaps help explain his note to Hosty prior to 11/22, and may also tie into the San Antonio warning. 

Moreoever, arguendo let's assume this to be true.  Whoever is "running" him may well have said, "Great, we're keeping an eye on the plotters.  When we catch them in the act, you'll be acknowledged for your efforts."

Such a scenario would also help explain why he went to his rooming house to retrieve his handgun only AFTER the assassination when he realized he may not be as safe as he'd anticipated, and his decision to catch a movie - in which he moved from seat to seat as though trying to connect with someone he'd likely never met before - in a pre-arranged fallback meeting spot.  (In such an instance, persons unknown to each other can verify each other's bona fides by carrying things like product boxtops, or perhaps an American Bakeries pay stub.  In any event, they would each have something odd but mundane that the other was told about, to confirm the person they're meeting is the one they're supposed to meet.  Without such confirmation.... AWKWARD.)

If the above is tenable, there are few choices as to what didn't go according to what Oswald anticipated:

*  Whoever was running him tried to prevent the assassination and failed.

*  Whoever was running him didn't try to prevent the assassination, because he/they was/were part of the plot.

*  Whoever was running him phoned to inform DPD that he was in the balcony of the Texas Theater, while LHO was there trying to find his contact.

Hence the comments uttered in sad resignation, "this is it" upon arrest, and "Now everyone will know who I am" while in Fritz's custody, as though his cover would now be blown.  Such a scenario would also rationalize the small amounts of money he was obtaining via Western Union, and why that fact had to be buried.

How would we expect Oswald to comport himself once he realized that nobody was coming to his aid, and that suspicion for two murders had fallen upon him?  The John Hurt call was a last ditch attempt to rally aid from his superiors.  When that didn't go through, one suspects Oswald suddenly knew just how well and truly stitched up he was, and that no assistance would be forthcoming. 

Perhaps I am reading into an Oswald comment something that isn't there, but when he stated to the press that he was waiting for "someone to come forward" and help him with legal representation, I have always heard what I think is extra emphasis on "someone," as though referring to a party he thought WOULD come to his aid, but hadn't and didn't.

FWIW.....

Thank you, Robert.  It's only been a few weeks but I've missed you guys too.  Hopefully my next meltdown is far off in the future.

At this moment in time the whole "Prayer Man" issue has got me reevaluating the entire TSBD scenario.  I neither agree nor disagree with the overall themes outlined in your post.  Prior to Sean igniting the community (pity someone doesn't ignite Ray Carroll on top of a big bonfire) then conventional wisdom within the research community had Oswald sitting in the lunchroom on his own prior to the assassination and much speculation followed on from that train of thought concerning why he would isolate himself from the parade and his colleagues.

If Prayer Man is Oswald then we have a new paradigm to fit together and many of the smaller pieces will be different.

I cannot work from a supposition that Oswald went back to his rooming house, wherever that may have been, to collect his revolver because I do not believe he owned one.  I also do not take seriously anything the Dallas Police Officers claimed he said upon arrest because to put faith in Oswald shouting "This is it..." would mean I would also have to put faith in him saying "I hear they burn for murder...it only takes a second."

Sean's "Prayer Man" has got my head going left, right, up and down and at this moment in time I can't fully grasp what it all might mean.

[beowulf]

Greg, you or Sean should reach out to Christian Toussay and ask him to data process the Prayer Man pics.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18420

I don't really understand the technology (could be an electronic Ouija board for all I know) but I'm curious what he'd come up with.

[GuestGuest]

[ianlloyd]

Let's consider Oswald's personality - he seems to  me to have been someone who relished attention and some level of "notoriety" which he attained by acting as a provocateur, devil's advocate and by being contrary. I think he considered himself as somewhat superior to most others. Would he have gone to see the POTUS as he passed by? I'm not entirely sure about that...as much of a "political animal" as he liked to appear to be, I think it possible that he may not have gone just so that he could then appear to be different to everyone else and invite questions and, maybe even, criticism but he was happy that he was at least getting some attention.

[GuestGuest]

In the above frame from Robin Unger's site you will see the only two men wearing suits and hats in the immediate vicinity of the TSBD where Roy Truly claimed he was stood with Ochus Campbell and Mrs. Robert Reid.  Neither of the suit wearing men are Roy Truly (based upon better clarity in other photographs) but I post this to show that these two men were NOT together.  I am 99% certain no other photographs exist showing two suited men together.

Below is CE361 -- this exhibit is the one allegedly used by Roy Truly during his testimony definitively state where he was standing when the shots were fired.  Truly was asked to mark it with an "I" and remember he claimed in his testimony that he was stood on the main north sidewalk of Elm Street.  Anybody see an "I" marked on the north side of Elm Street?

[GuestGuest]

Let's consider Oswald's personality - he seems to  me to have been someone who relished attention and some level of "notoriety" which he attained by acting as a provocateur, devil's advocate and by being contrary. I think he considered himself as somewhat superior to most others. Would he have gone to see the POTUS as he passed by? I'm not entirely sure about that...as much of a "political animal" as he liked to appear to be, I think it possible that he may not have gone just so that he could then appear to be different to everyone else and invite questions and, maybe even, criticism but he was happy that he was at least getting some attention.

I have one main problem with the above scenario, Ian.  Oswald didn't get any attention for acting differently from his work colleagues (if he did in fact act differently) because depending upon which timeline you agree with he was gone from the site after either 3 minutes or 10 minutes.  I do not hold this view of Oswald that you describe.  I think Oswald played the provocateur role in New Orleans but little to no evidence exists that he played this role in Dallas.  In fact I see Oswald a genuine chameleon who could shift and change role quite naturally.  I believe his possible FBI informer role in October/November 1963 to be very different to the other roles he had played insofar as I believe he was playing it more subtle.  

One thing I accept from Buell Wesley Frazier's testimony (at the risk of being accused of cherry picking) is Oswald's very private demeanour during his rides to and from Irving each week.  Frazier's only hint at his true feelings about Oswald were and have been when he talks about how much he liked him.  Guilt, unfortunately, weighs that man down like rocks on his back.

There was not one iota of testimony from anybody that he worked with at the TSBD that suggested that Oswald raised any opinions about anything political during his employment there and there is very little evidence suggesting that he craved anybody's attention through any behaviour he displayed.  He just appeared to work his ass off. Frazier's positive legacy is that he left behind first hand evidence of how Oswald would light up when he talked about his kids.

His role in the TSBD, attained for him IMO by the FBI through the Texas Employment Commission, was to keep his head down and create a relationship with a very specific payroll employee.  I do not find any evidence that the New Orleans Oswald reared his head in the TSBD.

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