Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part A

First topic message reminder :

This is full rebuild of the hugely popular thread created by Mick Purdy at the Webs forum in February 2015. – Stan

Mick Purdy

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier lied about seeing Lee Oswald with a package, a package two feet long on the morning of Friday November 22nd 1963.

I believe Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a package, a package 27 inches long on the Morning of 22nd Nov 1963.

I believe both Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier fabricated the curtain rod story.

I think there is ample evidence in their WC testimonies, affidavits and FBI interviews to support each of these contentions.

I have also come to the conclusion (after having a closer look at the testimonies and the various reports), that Buell Wesley Frazier lied about another crucially important matter that day. In my opinion the totality of the evidence suggests Frazier lied with regards to driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful morning.

Take a moment to reflect upon the importance of that drive to the case against Oswald before reading on.

The story was very likely fabricated not merely to have Oswald appear to carry a sack into work – but also to create the illusion of Oswald carrying a rifle. This conclusion is drawn from a study of the WC testimonies of both Randle and Frazier regarding Oswald, the package and his alleged arrival at the Randle residence that morning. Ten or more neighbours considered to be best placed to spot pedestrian movement in the vicinity were interviewed by the FBI as to whether they saw Oswald carrying a package from the Paine’s home to the Randle home. To a person, they stated they had not seen Oswald that morning – with or without any suspicious package which the police on more than one occasion, described as being similar in size and shape to a rifle case.

Frazier’s WC and Shaw trial testimony regarding the journey into work with Oswald appears rehearsed. Any questions relating to the “sack” or what was said in the car on the way in is met with what sounds very much like scripted answers that have become Frazier’s Lore. The sack, the curtain rods, the weather, and my favourite, Oswald’s kids, are IMO all part of the charade. Away from the small talk and banter about kids, he constantly flip flopped on testimony in a manner redolent with patterns of deceit.

Frazier’s WC testimony with regard to his arrival at work is at complete odds with the HSCA interview of Edward Shields. Though it could be argued Shields, unlike Frazier, was not under oath, and therefore is a witness of lesser value, the fact is that Shields was as close as you can get to a disinterested party merely reporting for the first what he had heard. Sadly, it took well over a decade for him to receive any relevant questions. In any event, it is highly unlikely he ever realized the import of his information.
  
From the HSCA interview of Shields
 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

 
To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Frazier residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Wes and Linnie Mae.

Frazier also testified that he let Oswald get well ahead on the walk from the car park to the loading dock entrance. But in the form of Edward Shields, we have a potential reason for Frazier to construct that story.

In the above two short paragraphs alone, we have three “firsts” – firsts that are needed for the official story to hold. Oswald had never walked to the Randle residence for his lift before. He was always picked up at the Paine house. Oswald had never taken a long package to work before. Oswald had never neglected to take a packed lunch before. Oswald had never even needed a lift on a Friday morning before. Frazier had never let Oswald walk ahead of him from the car park before. They had always walked in together. That is a lot of “firsts” – all reliant on a very tight little knit of witnesses outside of which, no corroboration exists. Nobody else, not one person can verify Frazier’s version of events in Irving except for his sister. At the other end of the journey at the TSBD parking lot, we rely solely on Frazier. It beggars belief that there are no other witnesses. That walk was at least 2 and 1/2 blocks long. Shields and Givens smash his fairy-tale apart.

This “story” IMO has the same stench wafting around it, like the rest of the days fables contain.

The bus trip, the cab ride, the sack, the run, the walk, the ducking, the escape, the 2nd floor, the first floor, the sixth floor, the lunch bag, the rifle case, the back seat, the front seat, the white jacket the grey jacket, the gun, the revolver ……………
 
An alternative scenario

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

Because of the holes in the official investigation, some conjecture is needed if we are to try understand the mess we have been left. What follows is some of my conjecture.

Frazier left that morning on his own – with the throwdown M-C rifle. The call from Givens of “where’s your rider?” was code giving Frazier the all clear to bring “the package” in, or was code for simply it’s clear to come inside.

Since Lee had missed his ride, Willie Randle offered to give him one, but needed to borrow Ruth’s car since his own was full of work gear for the trip to Austin later on. This leads to Oswald’s statement in front of Roger Craig concerning Craig’s description of a certain station wagon that "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Doesn’t that sound like someone talking about a car that was being driven by someone else?

I’d like to thank Greg Parker for his enormous support and encouragement.

Ed Ledoux

Its not just Wes. Whom did Baker brush aside on the front steps, or the landing, who held the door as he entered, whom was waiting to use front elevator, or taking the front stairway, or inside the lobby by the time Baker dashed in. We can see employees climbing or filling the steps ahead of Baker. Yet the only one whom "noticed" was Truly. The Lovelady non-sighting is suspect for how he described it and his position when he said he observed it. For this I find Lovelady and his recollections suspect, or worse conspiratorial.

Frazier was on the right side of the railing, as observed from street, and may have been talking to Sarah or another employee and 'could' have missed Bakers dash. Baker would be mixed in with the women we see in front of PM. Unless Baker shoved them aside then the women would know quite well the officer ran up the steps. I do believe Baker made it into the lobby....but then I say he took the first upward access he could see and that was the front stairwell. Of course that is pericated on Truly not catching Baker till he was up on second floor. Had Truly actually caught Baker in the Lobby or Landing then all bets are off. I would think Baker would ask or yell out to those in the Lobby already "How do I get to the ROOF!" Fuck the stairs, as I said only if Baker was blind would he miss the ones in the lobby.

But still this doesn't give ole Wes a pass. He ate his lunch on the steps AND in the basement. Wes covers by saying he just ran to basement to grab his sandwich (Can I get a quote or cite for this claim by Wes?) I find that silly, oh let me grab just a sandwich out the lunch sack he had that morning that no one saw him carry in. Forget what Lee brought, who saw Wes with a lunch sack?

WES was the loner! Go over all his interactions with employees--friends? What friends? Alone, but near Sarah etc. not with Sarah etc. Alone on the steps with other employees is how is see it. You would think he would remember Baker....if he wasn't chumming it up with Stanton and Co.

JimC

Buell Wesley Frazier: "Enjoy Every Sandwich..." and cup of coffee and coffee cake and snack from the snack truck... I'd like to ask Frazier, "Did you and Lee ever go getcha a samwich down at the little place by the Texas School Book Depository?" My first post and thanks to all for this forum.

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux

Its not just Wes. Whom did Baker brush aside on the front steps, or the landing, who held the door as he entered, whom was waiting to use front elevator, or taking the front stairway, or inside the lobby by the time Baker dashed in. We can see employees climbing or filling the steps ahead of Baker. Yet the only one whom "noticed" was Truly. The Lovelady non-sighting is suspect for how he described it and his position when he said he observed it. For this I find Lovelady and his recollections suspect, or worse conspiratorial.

Frazier was on the right side of the railing, as observed from street, and may have been talking to Sarah or another employee and 'could' have missed Bakers dash. Baker would be mixed in with the women we see in front of PM. Unless Baker shoved them aside then the women would know quite well the officer ran up the steps. I do believe Baker made it into the lobby....but then I say he took the first upward access he could see and that was the front stairwell. Of course that is pericated on Truly not catching Baker till he was up on second floor. Had Truly actually caught Baker in the Lobby or Landing then all bets are off. I would think Baker would ask or yell out to those in the Lobby already "How do I get to the ROOF!" Fuck the stairs, as I said only if Baker was blind would he miss the ones in the lobby.

But still this doesn't give ole Wes a pass. He ate his lunch on the steps AND in the basement. Wes covers by saying he just ran to basement to grab his sandwich (Can I get a quote or cite for this claim by Wes?) I find that silly, oh let me grab just a sandwich out the lunch sack he had that morning that no one saw him carry in. Forget what Lee brought, who saw Wes with a lunch sack?

WES was the loner! Go over all his interactions with employees--friends? What friends? Alone, but near Sarah etc. not with Sarah etc. Alone on the steps with other employees is how is see it. You would think he would remember Baker....if he wasn't chumming it up with Stanton and Co.

Mick Purdy

As usual Ed,

OUTSTANDING!!!

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

Paul and Stan,

Your incredible posts in the Bakers Run thread have convinced me, beyond any reasonable doubt, Wes needs to be asked questions, serious questions about his involvement in the frame of LHO. I was staring at Paul's post about Bakers run, gun drawn, pushing through the crowd, up the steps, by his own admission confronting someone at the top of the steps, with Truly just having waved him forward. Ask yourselves, how is it possible that Wes missed this, remember he can't recall this happening, but we know Lee had. Its beyond my comprehension how Frazier cannot remember a gun toting uniformed motorcycle cop pushing past him and probably yelling where are the stairs or some such immediately after the shots.......

He has to remember doesn't he??

Paul Francisco Paso

I'd love to get him drunk one night, Mick, and bend his ear for a little bit. Another VB, Wes? Sure mate. Here drop a shot of Drambuie in it and lets make it a depth charger. Imagine the stories we could tell.

Mick Purdy

Very funny Paul,
I might be tempted to drop something else in his drink.

Barto

BWF is having another go at his 'ride', and of course the package....and the cupping owwwww yeah

Mick Purdy

Curtain Rods my arse, that's the rifle right there.

Wes and Linnie created the perfect storm for the authorities to nail Oz to the cross. Paper sack cupped in his right hand, extending upward to his shoulder......that's the picture.

Mick Purdy

This from Linda's Thread,
posted by GNJ

OMG Linda!
You've done it!! The culmination of your hard work is even convincing to me who has no pixel analysis awareness at all! As you know, Buell Frazier and I are friends (Gary was even better friends with him) and I have asked him many times about Lee being on the steps. Each and every time he has answered with an emphatic "NO". I too have watched that video many times and I know in the early interviews, Buell has a hard time with being on camera, but I cannot dismiss your RN analysis of his answers. I'm so proud of you Linda! (and even more proud to be your friend)
So....as you say Buell has some 'splaining to do but so do Shelley, Lovelady, Sarah Stanton and more. Also, why wouldn't LHO have just TOLD the authorities he was on the steps? That's what has always bothered me. If I were playing spy games and got caught in the crossfire of lies I would be singing to high heavens! Wouldn't you?
I say you send this to Op-Ed so the world can see it! You have opened a new line of research, something we all should be striving to do but something you are actually doing. Brava my friend, not only with this, but with all the hard work you do to make the world a better place!
 
Hugs,
Gayle
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You bet he does, and pronto!!!

Faroe Islander

Buell is looking a lot like the Backyard photo person in the 2 last pictures where you can´t see his head.

Stan Dane wrote:Faroe Islander

Buell is looking a lot like the Backyard photo person in the 2 last pictures where you can´t see his head.

Mick Purdy

Uncanny that!!

RevPink89

I have been thinking about the paper bag. As far as I can tell, the first photo of any paper bag was at 2:19, being carried out of the TSBD by Det. Montgomery. Six officers stated that they saw it in the TSBD, six say they didn't. If it was put together on the spot it really makes me wonder where and when the whole bag scenario originated. Regardless, I guess it all comes down to whether you look at the bag issue as premeditated to frame Oswald, post concocted to frame Oswald (this line of thinking seems to really difficult to figure out, please help me out) or that it was Oswald's paper bag. Ithink I need a little help here.

I had another idea: what if BWF had (for whatever reason), had hooked Oswald up with a rifle on the morning of the 22nd and LHO had gone over to pick it up that morning and the bag story on BWF's and the Randles' part was to cover for BWF. BWF had wrapped it in a paper bag he had constructed from paper he had taken from the TSBD. In interviews BWF consistently states that Oswald couldn't have snuck paper out beforehand in his presence because if he had folded it up and tucked it in the front of his shirt BWF would have heard it crinkling. (Maybe, like it did when you snuck it out) Why would he (LHO) have to sneek it out in that method? IF there is no rifle connection, there might still be something to BWF having snuck out the paper for Oswald and then contriving his story to cover his butt.

Ed Ledoux

I've been thinking about Wes eating lunch twice. His BS story about going to the basement to eat lunch is in his first day statement hand written. He has the basement lunch eating before he goes out to watch the parade, where he supposedly eats his sandwich on the steps by Sarah Stanton. But change it to eating in the basement after eating on the steps with SS.

The bag story is also in his first day statement. He says the top was rolled down and the bottom folded under.
This is a lot of detail about a bag he glanced at when getting in the car and then never got another look at as 'Lee had it tucked up under his arm'. Seemed Wes was more familiar with that bag than we thought.

Not sure Wes is looking like a BYP stand-in, we'd have to ask Robert Oswald as he had the Imperial Reflex. Or perhaps asking Ruth about the film that was in the IR which was supposedly in the Paine's garage but not confiscated or inventoried. McCabe being the one to find the IR but not mention it to DPD officers is more BS.

Heck they search Paine's twice and do not take the IR. I think it was with Robert all along. This doesn't exclude LHO from borrowing it, or Robert offering it so LHO could take some baby pics.

RevPink89

If BWF had made a bag for LHO or for someone else for that matter, it could explain could explain some things.
It might have been leverage for DPD, if he were to be accused of having stolen the paper or had been seen taking paper, or he'd been connected to a bag.

The part of BWF and the Randle's story of LHO having come to their house that morning may have been true. One of the Randles actually did see LHO picking up the sack BWF had constructed that morning, maybe one of the Randles saw LHO pulling a bag out of the car (whether he rode with BWF or not) and came up with the short sack bit in case someone had seen LHO or worst case scenario - a sack was found with BWF's prints or some other info linking BWF to a paper sack. LHO might have used a curtain rod cover story with BWF or had said it was for a rifle. Either way, BWF is in the muck. It could go the other way, BWF made the sack and took it with him to work and then puts Oswald on the sack in his car to cover his tracks or to flush him down the toilet.

Just thinking out loud. ROKC's front page says it wants members who will think outside the box, so I'm giving it a go.
Maybe, BWF still wasn't quite out of the woods with the WC when they had him make and fold up sacks over and over again. Probably, it was hopping that he would at some point fold one up in a similar fashion to the bag pulled from the TSBD.

If there were a kernel of truth about Fritz coming down on BWF hard and demanding a confession, it could have been as a co-conspirator rather than what BWF claims and Fritz or DPD had BWF on some connection to a sack, maybe even the one pulled from the TSBD.

Paul Francisco Paso

They had a lot of leverage on Frazier. Enough to intimidate him the way they did. Buell is keeping quiet cause he is up to his neck in it.

Barto

Buell was 19 and the entire DPD was breathing heavily down his neck. I hope he clears things up before......

Stan Dane wrote:RevPink89

I have been thinking about the paper bag. As far as I can tell, the first photo of any paper bag was at 2:19, being carried out of the TSBD by Det. Montgomery. Six officers stated that they saw it in the TSBD, six say they didn't. If it was put together on the spot it really makes me wonder where and when the whole bag scenario originated. Regardless, I guess it all comes down to whether you look at the bag issue as premeditated to frame Oswald, post concocted to frame Oswald (this line of thinking seems to really difficult to figure out, please help me out) or that it was Oswald's paper bag. Ithink I need a little help here.

I had another idea: what if BWF had (for whatever reason), had hooked Oswald up with a rifle on the morning of the 22nd and LHO had gone over to pick it up that morning and the bag story on BWF's and the Randles' part was to cover for BWF. BWF had wrapped it in a paper bag he had constructed from paper he had taken from the TSBD. In interviews BWF consistently states that Oswald couldn't have snuck paper out beforehand in his presence because if he had folded it up and tucked it in the front of his shirt BWF would have heard it crinkling. (Maybe, like it did when you snuck it out) Why would he (LHO) have to sneek it out in that method? IF there is no rifle connection, there might still be something to BWF having snuck out the paper for Oswald and then contriving his story to cover his butt.

Redfern

The timing angle is interesting. Oswald's name was supposedly first broadcast around 2:45. I am not sure if there was any media coverage of the paper bag 'find' until significantly later on the Friday. Maybe another poster could clarify.

Linnie Mae approached the detectives and sheriffs searching the Paine house to inform them of Oswald and the bag, perhaps before 4:00, although I don't believe an accurate time was ever given. By then, she would presumably be aware of Oswald's arrest and have talked to her brother.

Unless we accept the official story (which I certainly don't) it looks as if BWF had foreknowledge of the paper bag. It was too short to carry the rifle (unless disassembled) so it also appears that someone seriously messed up.

Lee Farley

I think most of us on this forum believe that Buell Wesley Frazier KNOWS that Lee Harvey Oswald did not kill JFK because Buell Wesley Frazier KNOWS that he was stood next to him on the steps.
 
All the nonsense written elsewhere on this issue is just that--complete nonsense. The aggressive resistance to the idea that Oswald was on the steps smacks of ulterior motives and agendas. There are many people, critics of the Warren Commission, who do not want this to be Oswald on the steps and are vehemently opposed to the debate taking place.
 
What is their fallback position on the shitload of evidence presented? So far the thinnest of gruel has been presented as counter-arguments to the detailed and logical pieces that have been constructed step by step in detailing the PM narrative. Bill Kelly has so far written the most ludicrous statement concerning Prayer Man. According to this old fool even if we got a high resolution image that pictured Oswald on the steps in full high definition--well, nothing would change. Never in my life have I read such abject bullshit and it took me all my energy to not visit his blog and tell him to fuck off. But these are the types of people who believe themselves to be the true custodians on this case. And this is why this case will never be closed - - because these self-proclaimed custodians are a bunch of creepy, idiotic arseholes.
 
Albert Doyle, who has never had an original idea worth 1 cent in his entire life, keeps banging the drum of the last worthless idea he had. Prayer Man cannot be Oswald because no one said he was on the steps. The utter lunacy of this position cannot be described in human language. The only language this type of fucked-up idiocy deserves is a stern and hearty kick to the bollocks.
 
No one saw Oswald on the steps. Go screw yourself, Doyle. We have evidence that he was seen and then that evidence was suppressed and the witness did an about u-turn--as would be expected if the designated patsy had to be on the sixth floor. I mean, what kind of plot and cover-up would allow witness after witness to proclaim the assassin of JFK was stood on the steps?

Paragraph 12 in the following Earl Golz story tells us all we need to know about Oswald's presence on the steps and the purging of memories concerning it:

Goban Saor

"'That is completely foreign to me' Mrs Johnson told The News."

Indeed, Mrs Johnson. The past is another country.

Stan Dane wrote:Faroe Islander

Buell is looking a lot like the Backyard photo person in the 2 last pictures where you can´t see his head.

Greg Parker

That is a very good observation. It is what I would call an unusual stance and the body shape looks about right.  Has anyone ever tried to calculate how tall the person in the BYP is?

Terry Martin

Using the 40" rifle as a measuring device, I came up with the guy's height as 5'-3" or 5'-4". Using the Carcano from the 6th Floor Museum as the 40" ruler, it came up to just under 5'-6".

Stan Dane wrote:Terry Martin

Using the 40" rifle as a measuring device, I came up with the guy's height as 5'-3" or 5'-4". Using the Carcano from the 6th Floor Museum as the 40" ruler, it came up to just under 5'-6".

Greg Parker

Thanks Terry,

Is that taking into account the bent knees? If not, how much would that add back on? Head size? Is any height lost by taking off Wes's head and putting Oswald's on? I mean, it's as if Wes was asked to recreate the BYP pose while showing how Lee carried the rifle to work.

Stan Dane

Good work Terry. I did a picture thingy an hour ago, but it seemed so out of whack, I said to myself, "I ain't going to post this...something's wrong with it." Well, I will now. I came up with 5 ft 4 in.

Terry Martin

Yes, Stan, that's exactly how I did it. Since his right leg does not look bent at the knee, I assume measuring up that leg should be correct.

And I think this finally answers the question "Why does it seem Lee's head is too big for that body?"

Answer: they used a shorter person for the model.

Greg Parker
 
What if we go with the advertised length of the carbine, which was 36"?
 
    Klein's sporting goods had initially shipped surplus Carcano model M91 TS rifles (36 inch length; see Carcano article for explanation of model types and designations) under their "Italian carbine" ad, and this is the model shown in the ad from which Oswald ordered the rifle (see ad at right). However, effective April 13, 1962, Crescent Firearms, the wholesale supplier of Italian rifles to Klein's, had been unable to supply Carcano TS carbines, and had switched to surplus Carcano M91/38's
 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_rifle
 
That gets us to 5' 8". Can another 4" be found? You've gone from the top of the shoe? No bent knee accounted for? Different head shape?

The stance is just too similar... the erect upper body and odd positioning of the legs.

Terry Martin

Greg, That would make him shorter than 5 feet.