IF YOU HAVE A DOPPELGANGER RELATED PROBLEM AND NO ONE ELSE CAN HELP...IF YOU CAN FIND THEM MAYBE YOU CAN HIRE THE " B" TEAM..

It's time for your close up Mr Jolliffe...

With Jimbo Baggins enforced " vacation"( his little hobbit hole round the back end of sleepy Bellend Hill was stricken with a sudden infestation of black marker pen wielding elfs...all poor old Jimbo's favourite photos were mysteriously defaced...) and with Fezzos gruelling training regime for his long awaited appearance on " Dancing with the Emoticons" ( rumour has it Fezzo has been partnered with a cake guzzling Slimer emoji) it was time for the crack doppelganger brigade to whistle up the reserves...

Enter that noted deep political sage Paul " no I didn't star in Deliverance" Jolliffe...dazzling us all with his insightful prognostications...

If you're reading this Mr Jolliffe, all the lame jokes aside, don't allow yourself to be manipulated into doing Armstrong and cos dirty work 

Let them clean up their own mess. Surely they have courage and fortitude enough to crawl out from whatever rock they are cowering under and answer a few pertinent questions..

Half baked spurts of paranoia tinged faux populist rhetoric will no longer suffice..

Vague allusions to  fanciful decades long double doppelganger projects that " probably" took place are no longer any good.

What Baggins/ Armstrong/ Jack White or whomever did to " enhance" the Magic Tooth photo was beneath contempt...do you not see that?

Invoking the dreaded Warren Commission and making coy snickering references to Ruth Paine displays nothing but your intellectual bankruptcy and your inability to fashion logical coherent thoughts..

Harvey and Lee is nothing but an embarrassment now...to paraphrase the great Christopher Hitchens a relic of the bawling insecure infancy of the so called " research community"...

It may well have started out as a genuine theory, of sorts, and undoubtedly Oswald WAS impersonated on an as hoc basis..

But the grand overarching narrative...the puny Hungarian doppelganger imposter and the bullnecked all American boy quickly ( just how quickly is open to debate) devolved into a scam.
I strongly suspect that everyone from Fezzo downwards was played...

Armstrong and Baggins quickly latched onto the wild eyed true believers mindset... and they ruthlessly exploited it.

I was conned too. Initially I bought it all. Myrtle Evans, Stripling High and the Russian speaking Hungarian doppelganger..

Oswald was never , I repeat never , a native Russian speaker. I suspect Armstrong and co figured that much out. Because they did pretty much everything they could ( primarily concentrating on his putative Russian language skills) to obscure the most telling and salient fact that disproves the central premise of the entire convoluted fantasy- Oswald's ENGLISH is the key.

Any half way competent linguist listening to his spoken English would be able to identify the speaker as a native born English speaker ( and no i'm not just projecting or employing the favoured doppelganger research method..talking out my ass... I've done the work .. indeed with my own basic Russian it is easy to tell...Oswald was unambiguously a native English speaker..)

Thus the whole central premise crumbles to dust..

A pretty fucking nonsensical central premise at that it has to be said. Picking out a phantasmal polyglot Hungarian critter( from the ether apparently) to spend a decade Doppelganging an unrelated all American boy, who just so happens to grow up looking virtually indistinguishable...and then here's the real kicker...send this incorporeal Hungarian entity into the Soviet Union posing as an American....send a non native speaking Hungarian to the Soviet Union to pose as an American marine..

ItsI utterly preposterous..

Thus the nonsensical central premise ( and the mastoidectomy) had to be buried under reams of essentially meaningless inconsequential trivia...

Latching onto anomalies ( with the Oswalds being a peripatetic family, in a pre computer age such anomalies would be expected)...but never once discovering UNIQUE anomalies...

Relying upon decades old memories...misread documents ( purposefully or not)..the familiar doppelganger related repartee( sleight of hand, data dumps and feigned indignation) we all know and love...

Harvey and Lee was the critical mass for the Conspiracists. Or rather a failed antiquated notion of conspiracies...based on personal and ideological biases and an incipient paranoid anti government mentality that Baggins in particular expertly manipulated...

A theory can often be judged by its devotees, the willingness to accept genuine criticism and the intellectual capacity. Of course this is purely subjective ...but in the case of H and L I think its quite revealing....

The stoutest advocates for the existence of our puny Hungarian chum include such prodigious intellects as the venerable Professor Larsen, Ralph Cinque, John Butler( who did to the art of photo analysis what Curtis LeMay did to downtown Tokyo) Fezzo , Jimbo Baggins, Jack " Ground Control was a Hollywood backlot" White ...indeed the guru himself has been reduced to squabbling with everyone's favourite genius Sanibelite about the imaginary route his imaginary doppelganger took out of the TSBD...

Say no more..

Not only is H and L an embarrassment to all rational critics of the Warren Commission the methods used to propagate the fantasy were utterly despicable.

Mr Jolliffe don't allow yourself to be exploited...Jimbo Baggins is using you. Hes exploited your honourable intentions and twisted them into the service of an utterly dishonourable scam..

Let him answer for himself.

First and foremost how did that black marker line happen to end up on that photo?

Nice to see Jeremy B. still battling it out over there with the crackpots and nuts. I admire his spunk and verve. And Tracy P.

From Jeremy's post:

"Some bad guys shot someone who was in a slow-moving open-topped car and framed a patsy? Huh! Where's the excitement in that? Those home movies of the shooting, the bad guys faked them! Especially the one that proved there was a conspiracy! That's a fake!"


"Oh yeah? That's nothing! You know the photographs that were taken in Dealey Plaza? The lizard people faked them too! They had a mobile photography lab in Dealey Plaza! The world really is run by people with the power to do that!"


"Get real! The bad guys didn't just set up the patsy, they actually faked him! No, stop laughing! There were two of him, and both of them were in the book depository at the same time! And then both of them got arrested in the Texas Theater and each of them gave the game away by telling the cops his name was Oswald! The bad guys started that plot a decade before the assassination!"


"I can beat that! Kennedy's body, that was faked too! Our all-powerful overlords had a team of surgeons, and helicopters and everything! The surgery was done by the same people who operated on that alien from Roswell!"


Nice, JB. And don't forget, if you see this Jeremy, the one from Mike C over there, who said that when they tore down a building that supposedly housed Ruby's nightclub and found copper wiring in the walls, well, that just had to be assassination HQ with CCTV monitors and live cameras. And Dulles, Nixon, LBJ's clone and Tippit greedily rubbing their hands together as they took in the action taking place live in Dealey Plaza. And, oh yeah, Hoover was there with his apron on serving them all highballs. Hahaha...! 

I can just picture the scene....

A blood red moon high in the Texas sky.. the wheelchair bound Clint Murchison snr looking  approvingly on  from his oxygen tent... cackling gleefully as Beverly Oliver, Madeline Brown, Clyde Tolson, J Edgar, resplendent in a daring off the shoulder Coco Chanel evening dress, LBJ, lumbering and a whooping, Dick Nixon, Allen Dulles, shuffling around in his bedroom slippers , the demon Asmodeus, wearing spurs and a ten gallon hat, Juddufki ( naturally), Charles Lindbergh, Otto Skornezy, the two Georges, Soros and Bush, Martin Bormann in his favourite poncho riding his favourite alpaca goat, Adolf Hitler playing the castanets, ex General Walker, in a fetching pink tutu, and not forgetting the little green Man who crashed at Roswell, do the fandango round the giant JFK headed owl on his lawn... while the newly conjured ghost of Hank Williams strums his guitar and serenades the revellers with a mournful chorus of " Lost Highway"...

Here's the assassination HQ thread. The usual cast of characters - "ohhh, interesting" and "intriguing...you may be on to something..." - until it isn't.

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23787-phone-lines-crafard-and-senator-at-the-carousel/

A theory can often be judged by its devotees, the willingness to accept genuine criticism and the intellectual capacity. Of course this is purely subjective ...but in the case of H and L I think its quite revealing....

With all the discussion of H & L over at the Ed Forum, especially in the last couple of years, there's no excuse for any Ed Forum member who's interested in the topic to be unaware of how weak the evidence is. Mr Jolliffe, sadly, gives the impression that he hasn't even read the thread he's commenting on. I suspect he's just another [insert rude word here] who has latched onto the assassination because it allows him to indulge his semi-paranoid view of how the world works.

Mike C over there, who said that when they tore down a building that supposedly housed Ruby's nightclub and found copper wiring in the walls, well, that just had to be assassination HQ with CCTV monitors and live cameras.

What's the matter with these people? The assassination wasn't controlled from the Carousel Club. Everyone knows that! It was controlled from a pizza joint in Washington DC. I haven't quite worked out how yet, but I think Bill Gates was involved.

If you have a strong constitution I recommend you venture into the hall of mirrors fantasy realm , otherwise known as the 13 Inch Head forum...

Check out the latest attempt to reanimate  the undead Hungarian zombie corpse of everyone's favourite polyglot doppelganger...

Apparently Jimbo Baggins B Team have shot their respective bolts and after doppelganging themselves out they've retired to the comfortable surroundings of  The  Doppelgangers Rest...a cheery little tavern round the other side of sleepy old Bellend Hill...to down a few psychotropic laced flagons of frothy ale, enjoy a hot steaming bowl of homemade goulash  and soak up the homely ambience while ogling the curvaceous and flirtatious landlady.... Jemima Baggins, Jimbo's half elf cousin...

You almost feel sorry for the crack doppelganger brigade. Almost. Having to scrape the very bottom of the rotten cockroach riddled barrel... they're down to the real fucking dregs now...

The Z team....with a character who makes Stevie Gaal look like Leonardo da Vinci...

Ladies and gentlemen, my fellow troll punks and punkettes, I give you Professor Emeritus Eddy Bainbridge... Fellow of All Souls College and inaugural holder of the Felix Dzerzhinsky Chair of Applied Doppelganging at Corpus Christi college Oxford...

In an thoroughly sickening attempt to revive the nonsensical double doppelganger fantasy hesh attempted to graft Armstrongs lurid fiction onto a very real scandal.

By suggesting that Harvey and Lee were really twins seperated at birth. After watching the poignant documentary " Three Identical Strangers" recounting the unbelievably cruel attempt at social engineering, it dawned on our illustrious chum that Harvey and Lee could perhaps have emerged from this milieu.

Obvious the good Professor, despite his glittering career in doppelganging, hasn't quite managed to master basic arithmetic.

As a piece de resistance. Professor Eddie then adds a wistful thought of his own ..displaying the deep humanity that so often characterises such profound thinkers...
" Perhaps" Eddie muses " the project was hushed up so " the Jewish Nation" wouldn't be offended"

All joking aside I'm getting mighty fucking sick of reading this offensive trash.

Virtually all these brain dead dolts are as hateful as they are stupid.

They obviously don't want to learn. Ignoring the unwanted intrusions of reality... preferring to dally in the odious little fantasy domain they've created for themselves.

Without sounding hyperbolic not indeed self righteous, I think after over two decades of allegedly all manner of fantastic fakery while relentlessly pushing his ridiculous fantasy scenario, Jimbo Baggins should have the courage and the common decency to emerge from whatever bolthole he happens to be cowering in and answer a few questions.

First there was Frankenstein Oswald, then the Bronx Zoo magic schnozzle miraculously grafted on little Harvey, my apologies HARVEY... not to mention the Lily Munster hairdo on LEE... the magic marker pen wielding elfs strike again

But the obvious black marker line on the Magic Tooth photo...long touted as a bedrock of the theory takes this apparent duplicity to a whole other level...

It's not so much the theory itself I object to, preposterous as it is, and detached from any sort of reality... it's the aggressive manner in which it's been pimped( and I used that word specifically) for over 20 years.

The scurrilous accusations made by the defenders , questioning the character and the motives of anyone who dared raise a murmur..

How many times were we treated to the puce goateed face of Baggins... shrieking about  the fantasy cabal of sinister disinformation agents who were out to silence the fearless band of intrepid truthseekers..

How many flashbacks were triggered by Stevie Gaals multi fonted munificence? How many times were we dragged to the very precipice of insanity by Fezzos garish Owsley inspired scribbles?

And as for his fucking collages?? Somewhere in a quiet corner of the Elysian Fields, over a glass or two of absinthe  , Poussin and Raphael turned to Jackson Pollock with an apologetic shrug
" We take it all back"

After another sip Poussin warily adds,
" See that fellow over there? Standing way back in the shadows..yes the shadows cast by that gluttonous bastard Rubens belly... you'd have thought spending 200 years in purgatory having live eels shoved up his amply upholstered rear end might have taught him a lesson or two..."

" Oh for Armstrongs sake Claude" ( distant rumble of thunder)
" Shhhhh Raphael you know how jealous HE gets... everyone always taking Armstrongs name in vain...I don't envy those troll punks...I hear old Beelzebub is already warming up his special pitchfork ...as I was saying is that fellow over there Harvey or Lee? "
" I was watching  when he got here originally. Kept talking about an FBI agent in a toupee , then not a peep out of him for nearly 40 years...but all of a sudden he's running around like crazy..."
" Crazier than Van Gogh when Jim Morrison spiked his beer with acid and stripped him naked and locked him in Pandora's box with Eleanor Roosevelt and Amy Winehouse?"
" MUCH crazier.... even crazier than Pandora herself when she went out on a bender with Keith Moon, Oliver Reid and Hermann Goering...when she woke up and found that theyd shaved her box..."

" He went crazy all right!! Trying to swap his Mannlicher Carcano with one of Zeus's thunderbolts"

" I remember he found Zeus having cocktails with Noel Coward and Oscar Wilde..." A Mannlicher did you say? Noel purred..." Do come in dear boy and have a cocktail.."" " Yes he is a one cheeky bitch is Noel Coward!!! Asked Harry Bosch to paint him a giant ambulatory anus with Doctor Spock ears" " Is Spock the one who claimed we didn't go to the moon?". " That's old Jack White..he spends all his days sitting on his cloud playing strip Monopoly with William Howard Taft, Vlad the Impaler and Joan Rivers..."

" I heard he eventually pawned the rifle to Attila the Hun...ol  Ati is always up for a laugh..."
" Nancy Reagan sure didn't think so.."
" Yes poor Nancy...it wasn't exactly bedtime for Bonzo that night was it?...with a couple of thousand mescaline crazed Hunnish axemen rampaging round your cloud..."
" Couldn't walk straight for weeks after... anyway Attila has promised Lee is it?"
" Probably... which one is the puny Manhattan intellectual again?"
" Harvey I think...lets just say Harvey... he's going to get those ghost hunting plumbers to hold a seance in Dallas...next November...at some conference..he says he's going to materialise with 10 000 Hunnish warriors and go raping and pillaging until some gruesome troglodyte admits they never did the horizontal doppelbang..we better wake up Jackson here ..Houdinis new show starts in 10 minutes...His greatest stunt yet....hes h going to try to escape from Stevie Gaals subconscious..."

" Remember his last show...locked Donnie Jeffries inside Crematoria 4 "
" I still hear the stupid bastard squealing!!!"

" I do too!!! " Ernst how can I be locked in something that never existed?"
" Ha ha ha!! Thick as Caravaggio's brushes!! The lot of them...Do we have time for another drink?"
" Why I believe we do...Why don't we ask Harvey over there to join us?"
" Leave him be...hes h waiting for James Earl Ray to finish his tapdancing lessons...they go over to J Edgar's cloud to play a little Patsy bingo...Did you hear J Edgar got  Ivan the Terrible to build him a dungeon underneath his cloud? Apparently he's got Gianni Versace and Coco Chanel locked up down there.. until they make him a strapless evening dress that doesn't make him look fat..."
" Well chin chin old man!! Down the hatch.."
" Shit here comes  Josef Mengele and Michael Jackson!! No we don't want to play Operation"

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/20354-oswald-leaving-tsbd/page/232/?tab=comments#comment-365331

It starts getting silly right about here. The usual cast of characters - Larsen, "sloping shoulders" Dave Josephs, "one step down" Stancak, "67% of the frames missing" Chris Davidson, "puzzle man" Hume, and the like.

Here's a GIF showing three people at 5-9 but according to them all have 13-inch heads. All of the cast of characters ignored it go right on rambling on....



There really are some xxxxed up xxxxing people out there.

Mr Jolliffe,
                  Welcome to ROKC, I hope you can forgive the light hearted badinage, as I wrote upstream I've absolutely no doubt you are motivated by honourable intentions.

Being British and not being born at the time of the assassination, indeed being probably one of two generations removed ( depending on your particular conception of what constitutes a generation...10 years? 25 years? More ? Less?) from the Big Event I admire all Americans of a certain age who have the courage and the fortitude to stare into the abyss of their and their countries past...

Without flinching or retreating into the comforting embrace of apathy, or else seeking to infect the old wound with fresh poison...

Apart from Hargroves , who carries himself with all the class and poise of a down at the heel worn out Willy Loman of Conspiracy, shrilly peddling his soiled wares , relying on sleight of hand and faux bluster, I can almost picture the crocodile tears welling as he types...

More the harassed door to door salesman in frayed overcoat and scuffed brogues, trying to flog some DIY Miracle Colonic Irrigator to a sceptical housewife, than intrepid researcher...

Apart from our old friend Jimbo , Sandy Larsen and John Butler, the former is an almost textbook example of the Dunning Kruger Effect, while the latter manifests an ignorance and a stubbornness I find truly disconcerting..

His attempts at " photo analysis" and " historical research" can perhaps be best described as a man attempting to review a book written in a language he doesn't even speak ......yes, Mr Jolliffe, apart from those 3 individuals I'd be delighted to discuss the Harvey and Lee theory with any of it's other supporters.
Even dear old Fezzo the Fez, some of his earlier work, on the rifle and Mexico City , was intriguing, I did not agree with all of his conclusions, but the sheer effort involved was worthy of respect...

Fezzo may indeed be a talented mathematician, and he obviously cares deeply and profoundly about this case. 

I don't mean to be offensive Mr Jolliffe, but the briefest perusal of his work was enough to convince me his knowledge of history, epistemology and even the very basics of how to approach historical research was virtually non existent.

It is, or should be,  anathema to any serious historian  to approach a subject with a predetermined conclusion. You must always maintain a scrupulously intellectual honesty ( and emotional distance) when dealing with witness testimony, documentary evidence, indeed facts of any kind..

To claim a document, photo etc is fake, simply because it contradicts your preffered theory is inadmissible. Unless you have reliable impartial evidence indicating fakery

Fezzo is a true believer...Harvey and Lee is his religion. He delights in hunting out arcane meanings believing such mundane trivia as San Saba possesses some profound theological symbolism...

To answer your specific points about Stripling, ( with apologies to Jeremy B) I'm sorry Mr Jolliffe, the " witnesses" were anything but independent..

And it's not as simple as saying they were either mistaken or lying.

Human memory is incredibly fallible, unbelievably fragile,often we remember what we would have liked to happen, rather than what actually did.

Have you ever read Elizabeth Lotfus's book on Eye Witness testimony?

I strongly recommend you do.

I don't mean to be offensive Mr Jolliffe, I genuinely don't and I apologise if my comments appear needlessly dismissive of condescending.

You attempt to frame the Stripling" evidence" in the conventional Conspiracy friendly terminology.

First off , Jeremy was in no way defending the official version..

The witnesses were confronted with someone with a clear agenda .Decades old carefully massaged memories of something so ( at the time) inconsequential and trivial as a nondescript kid crossing a street etc are less than worthless.

Memories fade and merge over time. Softened by the autumnal glow of the gently passing years, blurring until they become practically indistinct.

Oswald was eminently forgettable, just another kid. Are you honestly telling us that someone over forty years later is going to have a pristine recollection of some kid kicking a football or loping down the sidewalk?

Robert Oswald simply misremembered. In the land of Conspiracy mundane every day acts are automatically imbued with sinister overtones...

No one ever misremembers ANYTHING...some young guy in the Marines making the offhand assumption that his kid brother attended the same school as he did would never happen, right?

Its obviously proof of some mindbogglingly complex double doppelganger project...

Mr Jolliffe im sorry the whole idea of the Oswald project as the double doppelganger afficiandos present it is, putting it mildly, patent nonsense...

The central premise alone relegates it to the realm of speculative fiction ( and that's being generous)

Oswald wasn't sent to the Soviet Union to blend in. If he was part of an illegal like programme, then at least the whole project would have some sort of credibility.

Oswald was the perfect candidate, with the perfect legend for a false defector cum courier, if that indeed was his role.

His background, orphanage/ divorce from Ekdahl,/ peripatetic wanderings/ truancy/ bright kid denied the opportunity to fulfill his potential etc..
Perfect..

Even if we ignore the fact that all projects/ operations of '47 vintage were ALL thoroughly compromised , in many cases tragically so( if the postulated double doppelganger Oswald project launched in 47 with a Hungarian polyglot kid or a Russian war orphan playing the starring role it would have been scrubbed, as all such projects eventually were and duly classified and swept under the all encompassing carpet of " National Security") it simply wasn't necessary.

Yes intelligence agencies did crazy outlandish things but for a reason!!

Unless maybe Dulles got bored of watching the baseball and/or his latest mistress/ pet Nazi was giving him the run around...so he got on the horn to Angleton..
" Hey Jimmy, how are the orchids? Great news about Ezra, winning that poetry prize!!!....anyhoo listen I was having dinner with Josef and some of the boys .oh you heard about that? Y'know what they say? You can take the Nazi out of the German, especially with electro shocks and LSD eh Jimmy?... anyhoo as I was saying, Josef was telling me about those sperm experiments...about that puny Hungarian kid who can speak 3 languages like a native, just hear me out...."

The whole idea of using a Hungarian polyglot doppelganger/ Russian war orphan to pose as an American marine seems vaguely plausible , at first glance, but it collapses and crumbles into dust with even the most cursory critical examination...

Not only was the whole " project" wildly impractical, can you imagine the logistics alone but it was utterly pointless..

An American serviceman, with an aptitude for languages was the obvious candidate for an American marine defector.

In fact sending an Eastern European imposter would have been downright counter intuitive...

Oswald was 19 years old when he detected, or false defected, no matter how well trained and prepared he was he would still be under immense pressure..

In a completely alien environment/ culture...drab grey oppressive late 50s Soviet Russia was hardly the Worker's Paradise..

No matter the training can you imagine what the 19 year old Lee must have felt sitting across a table from a grim faced KGB Interrogator? Having just walked along the unnaturally bright green carpeted halls of the Lubyanka? With the stench of disinfectant and stale tobacco clinging to his clothes and his mind...

If he was as you suggest some sort of native Russian speaker under that sort of pressure he would almost certainly have made a little give away slip....you know like the echoes of his New Orleans childhood slipped out at the Midnight Press Conference...

This was HARVEY , right? The Manhattan intellectual/ Hungarian polyglot?

Oswald was obviously a native English speaker. There's absolutely no doubt about that.

If he was a native Russian speaker it would have been obvious.

The sentence structure, inflection, choice of words, lack of prepositions...listen to Marina ..after nearly 60 years of living in the USA , forget the accent , it's the way she formulates her sentences that's the give away...

Don't allow yourself to be used as a mouthpiece Mr Jolliffe..

Im sure you regard Hargroves as your friend, and who knows away from " research" he may well be a great guy .

Just try to read his posts dispassionately, he's a salesman, first and foremost, his purpose was to sell the theory. 

Deploying highly dubious tactics( being incredibly polite) by trying to exploit the incipient paranoia and mistrust  that's prevalent , by attempting to associate any " critics" with the dreaded Warren Commission. By denying the humanity of the witnesses, by denying them the everyday foibles of humanity...

By repetition, bombarding the fucking forum with reams of often incoherent bumf, refusing to answer any questions , retreating instead into fundamentalist mode...

And worse of all peddling highly suspect artifacts/ pieces of evidence...or else hiding contradictory statements/ evidence, or witholding key statements that utterly distort the meaning.

Someone took a black marker pen to the infamous Missing Tooth photo, someone distorted the Frankenstein Oswald photo, someone added a nose to the Bronx Zoo HARVEY...

Then there's the failure to mention the mastoidectomy...

Leaving out the " Of course it was Margie" line, the misappropriation of countless pieces of testimony/ witness statements, Dorothy Marcum being one of the most egregious examples...

Mr Jolliffe I used to be a two Oswald advocate. 

I wanted to believe the theory, but after studying it, using Armstrong's OWN sources mostly I came away feeling like I'd been conned.

If such a project HAD existed then LEE/ HARVEY would have been the very last people the plotters would have used. If you study intelligence operations you quickly understand that planning for failure is an integral part of any plan...

Do you honestly think individuals who plotted to assassinate the sitting President would be gauche, or indeed clumsy enough to utilise long-term intelligence assets, as Patsy and shooter no less, as part of the plot?

The whole scenario makes zero sense regardless of how you look at it..

The prevalence of the Two Oswalds concept has fundamentally undermined any proper understanding of the ad hoc impersonations that did happen...