"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[Albert Rossi]

Greg, you can't be serious? 

Baker is just factitious embroidery on info that can be gleaned from reading a lot around in the literature.  She's a snake oil seller.  And you can't be serious about comparing your work to hers.  That's like saying we need more biographies of JFK like The Dark Side of Camelot.

I wouldn't worry too much about the popularity of your work.  State your case and let the chips fall where they may.  That's all one can do anymore, I'm afraid.  If you have to choose between best-seller status and compromising your integrity, well, I needn't preach of course.

Back to my sick bed.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Among her claims is that Oswald modeled himself on the Scarlet Pimpernel... and that he sometimes used the alias "Leslie Oswald" in honor of Leslie Howard, the actor who portrayed the Pimpernel. I'll let that stand without comment except to say that this is the type of thing that all too many people would rather read... which I find distressing and depressing...

The reading public has a long and rather solid history of not understanding much of anything they are reading within a contextual framework wider than their narrow vision. In other words, they read and like whatever suits them at the moment.

The reason why humorous memes work better on facebook than in depth articles is that most people have very short attention spans. There's a reason why 80% of the nation thinks there was a conspiracy and yet there is no cohesion to the think.

Recently, I purchased the number one selling science fiction story on Amazon to see if I could understand what was selling and it was hard to get through. The language was jumbled and juvenile, the plot twists continuous, loose threads dropped every other page, misspellings, missing words, and so on. And the very worst part is that the conflict around which the book centered was never resolved by the end of the tale. It was the most horrid trash I had ever read.

And yet it was the #1 seller and the comments went into the hundreds - mostly rated a "5" - and the few comments about how poor the book was got buried.

If an author was depressed by that discovery, it might be enough to make them throw in the towel. You cannot think like that. When my first seven books had not sold, one agent asked why I kept writing. I saw it like a savings account. All the stuff I wrote would become worth something when I did finally get my break.

The Oswald book is the same thing. It is an important part of the puzzle and needs to be out there. Perhaps it won't get more than a few sales before volume two arrives and precious few until the final one hits the stands. But - and I might be wrong since I haven't seen your outline - I imagine the really, really good stuff is in the final volume. When that one is released, I should think there would be more interest in the entire series.

Again, maybe that's just my warped thinking. I have thirty books published and sell only fifty copies a year, TOTAL. And yet I have three more done this year and plan on another dozen before Christmas. Sooner or later someone is going to notice what a truly wonderful gift my words are (excuse me while I go find a hole I can get sick in [Bob Dylan's line, not mine]) or something and the sales will improve.

Until then, I keep writing because THAT is what is in me to do.

Whew! And that seems a bit of an understatement... when I get going, well, it's hard to shut me up!

 

I understand what you're saying, Terry... and if it's seems like I'm whining, it's probably only because I am... I opened up volume 2 last night and tinkered a bit with what I already have down trying to get myself into it again.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Greg, you can't be serious? 

Baker is just factitious embroidery on info that can be gleaned from reading a lot around in the literature.  She's a snake oil seller.  And you can't be serious about comparing your work to hers.  That's like saying we need more biographies of JFK like The Dark Side of Camelot.

I wouldn't worry too much about the popularity of your work.  State your case and let the chips fall where they may.  That's all one can do anymore, I'm afraid.  If you have to choose between best-seller status and compromising your integrity, well, I needn't preach of course.

Back to my sick bed.

Albert, yes. Get well!

What I tried to say was, she was the exception to pure regurgitation. Even if in her case it's regurgitation + embroidery... it is certainly imaginative embroidery... 

I'm just a bit on the low side at the moment about a lot a things. It'll pass.

[GuestGuest]

The 2nd volume is only about 20 pages done at this stage due to putting it aside to promote the first book - a mistake because I'm having trouble forcing myself to dive back in.

I wish you the best of luck getting it done, Greg. With so much crap out there concerning this case, your book is something we NEED.

Absolute truth. There are piles of books on JFK - of differing worth - but precious little about Oswald that is cogent.

I agree, Terry.

Unfortunately it appears people are more comfortable with what is familiar. Book hasn't sold a copy in a week, while other books which came out within a month either side of mine and which are no more than cannibalized versions of previous books, are selling quite well. 

One of the reasons I'm in a quandary about which way to turn.

The exception to the rule is Judyth Baker. Her book is no regurgitation of old ones but is also doing quite well.

Here is a recent comment on FB:

"Me and Lee". Judy Vary Baker's book. Just finished it and can recommend it. It is well written and well put together from cover to asides to maps and photos. The photo of Lee Oswald recognizing Jack Ruby and not being happy about it is priceless and worth the book on its own. Judy has taken the ghost of Lee Harvey Oswald and fleshed him out giving us a real man. I always wondered what the trip to Clinton, Louisiana, was all about. Now I know. Congrats Judy Baker. You are now a part of history and have driven another nail into the coffin of the Empire.

Among her claims is that Oswald modeled himself on the Scarlet Pimpernel... and that he sometimes used the alias "Leslie Oswald" in honor of Leslie Howard, the actor who portrayed the Pimpernel. I'll let that stand without comment except to say that this is the type of thing that all too many people would rather read... which I find distressing and depressing...

Sex sells, Greg. JVB knows that.

[Albert Rossi]

Greg, I think what you are experiencing is as Terry hinted part and parcel of the writerly art.  Every writer (or composer, painter, etc.) comes to face the choice between easy success and remaining true to the values which are the cornerstone of his/her undertaking.  You got some very, very important things to say, and they must be said in a way which does not pander to popular tastes.  Keep at it!  We've got your back.

[TerryWMartin]

Paul,

Are you suggesting that a volume mentioning a strange relationship between J Edgar, Clyde, and Lee would sell books?

Not that I would suggest such a thing...

[TerryWMartin]

Greg, I think what you are experiencing is as Terry hinted part and parcel of the writerly art.  Every writer (or composer, painter, etc.) comes to face the choice between easy success and remaining true to the values which are the cornerstone of his/her undertaking.  You got some very, very important things to say, and they must be said in a way which does not pander to popular tastes.  Keep at it!  We've got your back.

Very well put, Al.

And in far fewer words than I yakked up.

You wouldn't happen to be a writer too, eh?

But like he says, Greg. To thine own self be true. And thing less is not really worth undertaking.

[GuestGuest]

Paul,

Are you suggesting that a volume mentioning a strange relationship between J Edgar, Clyde, and Lee would sell books?

Not that I would suggest such a thing...

As a love triangle, Terry, or a threesome ? It could go either way. If you want to find out then you better buy the book I suppose. 

[GuestGuest]

Greg, I think what you are experiencing is as Terry hinted part and parcel of the writerly art.  Every writer (or composer, painter, etc.) comes to face the choice between easy success and remaining true to the values which are the cornerstone of his/her undertaking.  You got some very, very important things to say, and they must be said in a way which does not pander to popular tastes.  Keep at it!  We've got your back.

Very well put, Al.

And in far fewer words than I yakked up.

You wouldn't happen to be a writer too, eh?

But like he says, Greg. To thine own self be true. And thing less is not really worth undertaking.

I agree with both you gentlemen. Do it for yourself first and foremost, Greg. Everyone and everything else can wait.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Thanks guys. You've all done more than your bit, and I am more grateful than I can put into words.

Getting this back on track, I had been toying for a while with the idea that Lee never owned the Imperial Reflex - it was just said to be his because it was the camera used to take the BY photo/s. However... I have been forced to rethink that...

[GuestGuest]

Thanks guys. You've all done more than your bit, and I am more grateful than I can put into words.

Getting this back on track, I had been toying for a while with the idea that Lee never owned the Imperial Reflex - it was just said to be his because it was the camera used to take the BY photo/s. However... I have been forced to rethink that...

Funny you should say that, Greg. I've had suspicions about that camera ever since Marina supposedly took the photos. This is from another website that talks about the camera in quite a bit of detail:
http://www.copweb.be/Imperial_Camera.htm

DEPOSITION OF MARINA OSWALD PORTER
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 1977 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS, 
Washington, D.C.

Q. This camera, do you recall whether to take pictures with this camera, you would look down into the viewfinder or
  whether you would hold the camera up to your eye and look straight ahead?
  A. I just recall I think it is straight.
  Q. You would put the camera up by your eye?
  A. Yes.
  Q. Do you remember what color the camera was?
  A. I think it was black.
  Q. Do you remember anything else about it?
  A. Not the name; no. But again, since I am not expert with the camera, that is what I remember, I think?
.../...

Below are three details which, in my opinion, Marina should of remembered:

- The color of Oswald Imperial camera was silver, this was a unusual color for a box camera in the 60's.
- The large red knob, is used to the advance the film.
- The viewfinder at the top of the camera (under the hood) displays a inverted 'horizontal' image.

I know it was 1978 but you would think Marina would have remembered such a bizarre photo op. She was vague about the whole day in her WC testimony too. I don't believe she took the photos. I know this is out there thinking, but my suspicion is that George De Mon may have had something to do with those photos.

Edit.Those opinions are not mine but from the link. PK

[beowulf]

If Oswald did have a camera on front step, it and the film inside it were not long for this world.

[TerryWMartin]

I had been toying for a while with the idea that Lee never owned the Imperial Reflex - it was just said to be his because it was the camera used to take the BY photo/s. However... I have been forced to rethink that...

Interesting. As Paul said, Marina's testimony (as usual) was counter-definitive, if anything.

IIRC The Imperial camera did not turn up from Ruth's garage, it was brought in later by Robert Oswald.

And why does that brother believe so strongly that Lee was guilty... nope, never mind, let's take that to a different thread someday. Still, I think Robert was the one who turned in the camera - said he borrowed it or something...

Of course, my memory gets a little sketchy this late at night.

It will be interesting to see what develops... [pun intended]

[GuestGuest]

I had been toying for a while with the idea that Lee never owned the Imperial Reflex - it was just said to be his because it was the camera used to take the BY photo/s. However... I have been forced to rethink that...

Interesting. As Paul said, Marina's testimony (as usual) was counter-definitive, if anything.

IIRC The Imperial camera did not turn up from Ruth's garage, it was brought in later by Robert Oswald.

And why does that brother believe so strongly that Lee was guilty... nope, never mind, let's take that to a different thread someday. Still, I think Robert was the one who turned in the camera - said he borrowed it or something...

Of course, my memory gets a little sketchy this late at night.

It will be interesting to see what develops... [pun intended]

In Feb 1964. Considering it was used for the BYPs that is very late.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Linda has sent her apologies. She has been fighting other battles and now has house guests. She has assured me she will be presenting what she has here, but has had to push it back again. Thanks for your patience, all.

[TerryWMartin]

Linda has sent her apologies. She has been fighting other battles and now has house guests. She has assured me she will be presenting what she has here, but has had to push it back again. Thanks for your patience, all.

No problem and no apology needed. I think we can all stick around a little while longer.

Anything new and interesting is always worth the wait.

Besides, it is Memorial Day weekend here and - though I cannot sit around and drink a few like Stan - I would imagine my wife has a few things to keep me more than occupied.

Assure Linda we will be ready when she is.

[StanDane]

I see where the ED Forum may close down soon. At least the possibility has been raised.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20931
 
If this is true, I would hope that Simkin would turn the place into a museum so that all the work would be preserved. Shouldn't be any upkeep, other than the cost to host it on some server. Because if all of the work simply disappears, what was the point in the first place? Was it just a money making game?
 
In addition to the PM thread, I know there's a lot of other good work by folks like Lee Farley that should be preserved.
 
Anybody know of a good way to backup this kind of stuff before it's too late?

Just thinking.

[Hasan Yusuf]

Stan,


Given what a complete asshole Simkin has shown himself to be over the past year, I don't think he will be preserving the work published on his forum. Though, I certainly hope that I am dead wrong about that.

[TerryWMartin]

The recently joined member who has an interest in PM is Linda Giovanna Zambanini. Linda has contacted me to let me know she has been doing further work on it, and wants to post it all at once rather than piecemeal. She estimates she should be ready in a couple of days.
 

Is there an update on this article being posted?

[TerryWMartin]

Linda has sent her apologies. She has been fighting other battles and now has house guests. She has assured me she will be presenting what she has here, but has had to push it back again. Thanks for your patience, all.

Linda must be having the houseguests from hell.

Let her know that we are still waiting and still very interested.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Terry,

I don't know what's happened - but I suspect other interests are taking precedence at the moment that are very important to her.

[StanDane]

August 14 marks the one year anniversary of the "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" thread (aka "Prayer Man") on the Education Forum where Sean Murphy showed his brilliance. This thread elevated my interest in the JFK assassination to much heightened levels because it was new, compelling research that was simply captivating. I soon learned that Sean's favorite researcher, Greg Parker, had a forum and didn't require some fancy pedigree or a lot of hoops to jump through to join, so I came over and signed up. What a ride it's been.
 
If I were a member at ED, I would bump the "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" thread to commemorate the anniversary of one of the most successful/beneficial threads they have. Over 174,000 views!
 
Another cat I heard about (a little jazz lingo there) was Lee Farley. I learned he did some great work as well a year or two earlier: "Oswald and Bus 1213" thread was one example. I was delighted to find that Lee was a member of ROKC. I'd bump this thread as well. 

To me, these—and Greg's demolition of so many of the planks of Harvey & Lee doctrine—are examples of tight, solid research. I hear a lot of Martin Hay's work, as well as the work of some others, was flushed down the commode over there. What freakin a crime.

[Hasan Yusuf]

If I were a member at ED, I would bump the "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" thread to commemorate the anniversary of one of the most successful/beneficial threads they have. Over 174,000 views!

Maybe I can ask Jim if we can put up a link to the prayer man discussions on both the Ed forum and here on the CTKA homepage. It's a sure fire way to attract more readers. I doubt Jim would object.

[Colin_Crow]

There is a good thread on Duncan's forum that contains some posts by Sean and a lot of analysis of those on the steps. The conclusion was that PM was not any other TSBD empoyee.

[Ray Mitcham]

August 14 marks the one year anniversary of the "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" thread (aka "Prayer Man") on the Education Forum where Sean Murphy showed his brilliance. This thread elevated my interest in the JFK assassination to much heightened levels because it was new, compelling research that was simply captivating. I soon learned that Sean's favorite researcher, Greg Parker, had a forum and didn't require some fancy pedigree or a lot of hoops to jump through to join, so I came over and signed up. What a ride it's been.
 
If I were a member at ED, I would bump the "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" thread to commemorate the anniversary of one of the most successful/beneficial threads they have. Over 174,000 views!
 
Another cat I heard about (a little jazz lingo there) was Lee Farley. I learned he did some great work as well a year or two earlier: "Oswald and Bus 1213" thread was one example. I was delighted to find that Lee was a member of ROKC. I'd bump this thread as well. 

To me, these—and Greg's demolition of so many of the planks of Harvey & Lee doctrine—are examples of tight, solid research. I hear a lot of Martin Hay's work, as well as the work of some others, was flushed down the commode over there. What freakin a crime.

Just done as you suggested, Stan.

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