Judyth Baker - a credible source?

While reading on William Greer on spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk, I found following statement, obviously, from book of JVB:

Lee (Harvey Oswald) told me that the driver’s habits (William Greer) had been studied, and a shot going off would cause him to brake, which would slow the vehicle down. This was desired because even this cabal feared Aristotle Onassis, who would send killers out to track down anyone who killed Jackie Kennedy, or so the rumor went – and besides, everybody liked Jackie and orders were out not to hit her. It was to spare Jackie that some very expert marksmen missed or delayed their shots that day in Dealey Plaza: she was in their line of sight a great deal of the time, according to David Ferrie, who got the report from Marcello's henchmen as soon as he arrived in the Houston area.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgreerW.htm

Well, I think it is impossible. Conspirators, whoever they were, couldn't have any materials on behaviour of certain SS agents under stress situation, since I believe the very SS did no perform such tests and studies (and thus failed a lot during November 22).

I find such claims from JVB indicates that her story is not 100% truth.

I can't answer that, since I don't have time to look up what training Greer did or didn't have. His testimony does indicate he was a very experienced chauffeur even prior to joining the Secret Service.

Judyth lurks here, and she is free to sign on and respond to your post if she wants.

Well, my point is if there were certain tests to check out actual qualification of SS agents, and if in results of such tests Greer would show hesitation or confusion during the simulation of stress (attack) situation, he won't be qualified to drive Limo No 1. So, there are two conclusions:
1) Most likely, there were no such tests performed and if compared with nowadays standards of bodyguarding, the overall qualification of SS agents was quite low;
2) If such tests were performed and conspirators somehow had access to their results, Greer most likely won't be let to drive Limo No 1.

As far as I know, SS level boduguards of nowadays as well as various private security force, providing bodyguarding services, undergo special training to react properly to any type of attack. They carry out a lot of simulated situations during their trainings, and have standard reaction procedures for any attack, including advancing driving techniques and evasive maneuvres. And being an experienced driver is good, but not enough to qualify as driver of Limo No 1.

And if we look back to November 22, 1963, we do not see anything like `standard procedure` during the sniper attack. Some of SS did the best they could (I believe the best example is Clint Hill) - and I believe Greer also was among them. However, I can't standard protection procedure there. And it makes me to think about absence of specific SS qualification tests during 1963. I believe the very assassination served as reason to develop such procedures later.

I believe Vince Palamara is right man to comment this one more argumented, however I am not sure he is registered here and reading this.

Well, my point is if there were certain tests to check out actual qualification of SS agents, and if in results of such tests Greer would show hesitation or confusion during the simulation of stress (attack) situation, he won't be qualified to drive Limo No 1

Found this last night. Might be relevant:


Maybe there was some fireworks happening in a deliberate ploy to cause Greer to react as he did?

From affidavit of Mr. Greer:

The President's automobile was almost past this building and I was looking at the overpass that we were about to pass under in case someone was on top of it, when I heard what I thought was the backfire of a motorcycle behind the President's automobile. After the second shot, I glanced over my right shoulder and saw Governor Connally start to fall, I knew then that something was wrong and I immediately pushed the accelerator to the floor and Mr. Kellerman said, get out of here.

So, if there was only one shot, Greer even wouldn't be aware the Limo No 1 is under fire - that's the worst of conclusions. He is consequent and keeps his stand also during WC hearings:

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time?
Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more. I did not see anything happen behind me any more, because I was occupied with getting away.

Now, my understanding is that SS while protecting a President level VIP, must have and use more advanced tactics than common army rifleman. The latter, in sudden `under fire` situation, should: make a hasty contact report (ie "CONTACT LEFT!") while moving to take up as good of a position as possible (cover first, concealment if no cover available) and return fire in the direction of the enemy.

And, of course, SS agents should be able to recognize characteristic sound of weapon types too - and as we know the hunters within motorcade (Conally, Baker, Yarborough?) had no problems with that. They recognoized the very first shot as rifle shot.

Maybe there was some fireworks happening in a deliberate ploy to cause Greer to react as he did?

I have read claims there were used firecrackers in the route of motorcade, and if they really were, and were part of conspiracy, then most logical conclusion is they were used to accustom SS agents to explosions so they won't react properly when the real shots will be fired. I found this more consistent with lack of reaction from Greer to first shot rather than use of firecrackers to make him slow down in the kill zone.

However, I must admit I haven't found confirmation on use of firecrackers in the route of motorcade before turn to Houston Street.

9K116 wrote:While reading on William Greer on spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk, I found following statement, obviously, from book of JVB:

Lee (Harvey Oswald) told me that the driver’s habits (William Greer) had been studied, and a shot going off would cause him to brake, which would slow the vehicle down. This was desired because even this cabal feared Aristotle Onassis, who would send killers out to track down anyone who killed Jackie Kennedy, or so the rumor went – and besides, everybody liked Jackie and orders were out not to hit her. It was to spare Jackie that some very expert marksmen missed or delayed their shots that day in Dealey Plaza: she was in their line of sight a great deal of the time, according to David Ferrie, who got the report from Marcello's henchmen as soon as he arrived in the Houston area.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgreerW.htm

Well, I think it is impossible. Conspirators, whoever they were, couldn't have any materials on behaviour of certain SS agents under stress situation, since I believe the very SS did no perform such tests and studies (and thus failed a lot during November 22).

I find such claims from JVB indicates that her story is not 100% truth.

I find JVB one of the most annoying red herrings in the case. I ignore practically anything she says and as she's back by Jim Fetzer its another excuse to stay away in all honesty.

Unless they "re-insert" themselves as has been happening.  Hard to ignore.

Perhaps she is a disinfo agent.

JFK Student wrote:Perhaps she is a disinfo agent.

That's what I think she is.

JFK Student wrote:Perhaps she is a disinfo agent.

"That's what I think she is."
----
Or just a generic crazy person. Has she ever produced any photographs showing she and Lee together (even as part of a big social group)?

There's no way they could predict and factor in that Greer would react to ambush by taking his foot off the gas vs. slamming the pedal to the metal.

beowulf wrote:Or just a generic crazy person.

Yeah, that's certainly possible. I just don't pay any attention to what she says.

I honestly think people are just people, no matter how much training they may have had. I was in my car outside a bottle shop when the first big Christchurch earthquake happened. I put my key in the ignition and had not turned it when the car started violently shaking. I jumped out immediately and grabbed my son - absolutely certain the car was about to blow up. My friendly local gin dealer came and grabbed us and took us back inside and it took us quite a while to figure out what had happened.
I say this because, obviously it was a quake. I had been in quakes before and have been since.
I know that if I was driving and heard loud bangs, even if I had been trained to hear loud bangs while driving, when it actually happens I would break, thinking there was a mechanical problem with the car and not shots going off in broad daylight, surround by people on a city street. Car trouble seems like the most obvious answer to me (even though it wasn't).


As for Miss JVB, she causes more trouble than she is worth. Even if (and I doubt it) she is right, or even partially right in her stories, what she has to offer is not worth the damage she causes. I personally think she is very similar to Tania Head, the fake 9/11 survivor. If you have time to watch this documentary you will see why.  http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/tania-head-the-911-faker/
I also feel very bad for Len Osanic, who JVB and Fetzer have decided to bully currently. From what I understand Len interviewed JVB as a favor for a friend and then decided not to air the show due it not being suitable (too far out or whacky maybe?).
I wouldn't even bother trying to discredit JVB. I think she craves the attention and it just fuels her to carry on. I had a stalker once and I tried to make her stop for 4 years, it took me that long to realise that if I just didn't bite back she would of lost interest and moved onto the next victim. The negative attention was the prize she was after.

Frankie wrote:I was in my car outside a bottle shop 

So... you're in your car outside a booze shop... with the motor running and chomping on a stogie, waiting for Clyde... 

This just doesn't sound like you at all, Ms Vegas! 

way back when, she (Judyth) was asking people to send her questions through her CT guardians. I sent one only three people knew the answer to, one being the deceased Oswald (four if she knew). It was NOT something that could be researched and an answer found that way... If she knew the answer, it was proof to me she knew Oswald, and probably very well. If she didn't, it wasn't proof she was a fraud. It might only mean this was something he didn't tell her. As it turned, she did give an answer - but that answer was one that was only close (as opposed to correct) and it was one that could have been researched in the 26 volumes. I still gave her the benefit of the doubt and we swapped a lot of emails. She was quite handy to know because of her ability to research, particularly in the science fields. Because of all her reported harassment in the US, I even offered for her to come to Australia and stay with us. 

There were two things that made me give up on her. First was when I noticed my research was starting to find it's way into her narrative - and secondly, my wife gave birth to premature twins (by 3 months) and I was working my bum off managing an employment agency office trying to pull it out of the red. None of that seemed to matter to Judyth. She was flooding me with emails and expected replies to every single one, and she was getting quite agitated whenever I failed to reply.

More recently, I noticed on FB that she had made the claim that Lee used the alias "Leslie" after the actor who played "the Scarlet Pimpernel", Leslie Howard, and now by golly, she had found PROOF to support that claim (which was not just Oswald using the name "Leslie", but that he also modelled himself on the Scarlet Pimpernel). The FBI had "Leslie Oswald" listed on a document which appeared to be giving all of Oswald's supposed aliases... 
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=691643

My contention is that she found this, or a similar document -then wove the nonsense about the Scarlet Pimpernel around it - and then voila! Announced she had found the proof for the claim!

I can understand how she has her supporters. She is good at what she does.

But the fact is, the name was NOT used by Oswald. It was a mistake made Mr. Aiken at the TSBD in preparing the payroll record. He simply wrote Leslie instead of Lee.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=1010371

All past payroll records were correct, so the only way this works for Judyth is if Oswald - for reasons known only to himself - goes to Mr Truly and says... "I, Lee Oswald" now wish to be known as "Leslie Oswald" and I would like the company records to henceforth reflect this."

But of course, it was Lee Oswald that Truly sent the hounds after... not Leslie...

I'm afraid to say that the Nutters may have actually got something right here.

Whoa, you had a lucky escape there!
So glad to see your beautiful boys all big and strong and kicking ass.
I can see how she has her supporters too. Judyth is a fantastic story teller and would serve her quite well in another context. I always get the feeling that her followers are like the flying monkeys in the Wizard Of Oz. She sees someone pull her up on something and shouts "Fly my pretties!".
Very cultish.

Frankie Vegas wrote:I honestly think people are just people, no matter how much training they may have had. I was in my car outside a bottle shop when the first big Christchurch earthquake happened. I put my key in the ignition and had not turned it when the car started violently shaking. I jumped out immediately and grabbed my son - absolutely certain the car was about to blow up. My friendly local gin dealer came and grabbed us and took us back inside and it took us quite a while to figure out what had happened.
I say this because, obviously it was a quake. I had been in quakes before and have been since.
I know that if I was driving and heard loud bangs, even if I had been trained to hear loud bangs while driving, when it actually happens I would break, thinking there was a mechanical problem with the car and not shots going off in broad daylight, surround by people on a city street. Car trouble seems like the most obvious answer to me (even though it wasn't).

I assume you aren't in military neither in any kind of field operations security service?

I agree with your opinion, if we are talking about untrained or civilian person. Of course, then in case of any unusual incident correct decision is to stop car. However, the case of SS agent, responsible for security of head of state, is quite different.

Just some short thoughts:
1. SS agents, while guarding President, should be more situational-aware, than ordinary civilian driver or bystander. They should be ready to react to threat at any moment, regardless of daytime and amount of the people on the streets (btw large crowds always is considered as larger threat than few people standing, since perpetor in the crowd has larger oportunity to prepare for attack undetected).
2. What I already wrote about sound signature of shots. We know that hunters and soldiers in the motorcade (govt. Conally, for example) had no problems with identification of sound signals as shots. I.e., this is not requirement that only Superman can meet
3. What comes to decision `fast forward` or `stop`, then it should be viewed in context of status of the car. I.e., on my opinion (based on the military practices) the scheme for decision making would be following:
- Sound of shots are recognised, but valuable target is not under fire: --> The motorcade accelerate to move away from place of origin of shots fired;
- Sound of shots are recognised, and valuable target is under fire: --> The motorcade accelerate to move out of field of fire, maybe evasive maneuvers are applied, and the crew of follow-up cars can try to spot hostile shooters and return fire to them.
- Sound of shots are recognised, and car with valuable target is hit: --> If car is controllable nevertheless, there is still imperative to get out of field of fire as soon as possible! Only in the case the car is hit so badly it is no longer controllable, the braking is the option to avoid, for example, dangerous crash in the obstacle, or running off the road, what can inflict turnover of car or anything as bad.

However, I am not sure that decision making scheme like this was used in the training of SS agents 50 and more years ago. The way how they reacted on situation in Dealy Plaza doesn't give a certain answer, but I think their training could be much better (and I believe the 22nd of November, 1963 made people in the head of bodygarding institutions around the world to review training of their personel, procedures and tactics).

However, generally Greer made the correct decision - after he detected limo is under the fire, he accelerated, even if it happened after the few seconds of confusion.

You assume right. I was very briefly in the military but never trained for anything like that.
I rocked the uniform however.

I rocked the uniform however.

Linked is a website that collects pictures of women from the armed forces of different nations. If I remember correctly, only Israel conscripts women. Which, purely from an aesthetic point of view, seems to work pretty well for them.   )
http://www.miliwoman.com/

beowulf wrote:I rocked the uniform however.

Linked is a website that collects pictures of women from the armed forces of different nations. If I remember correctly, only Israel conscripts women. Which, purely from an aesthetic point of view, seems to work pretty well for them.   )
http://www.miliwoman.com/

Yes, women in uniform do have the capacity to evoke strange fantasies. Such as whether this John’s unlikely fixation with Nikita is a metaphor for a certain other John’s verboten Cold War liaison with the other Nikita. 


https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CDoQuAIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymotion.com%2Fvideo%2Fx28osj_elton-john-nikita_music&ei=jiJdUvfHGvDT7AbVsIGADQ&usg=AFQjCNEBb4w_T3U5gp0cxwtPqfaspgsZMQ&bvm=bv.53899372,d.ZGU

Actually, I do not talk about uniforms here, but situational awareness and standard operation procedures instead.

It could be helpful for infantrymen to recognize small arms sound signatures because sometimes it is important, who are shooting those shots - friendles or hostiles. As well, are those shots from rifles, machine guns or 50. cal. Without doubt, being Secret Service agent requires even higher qualification, including ability to identify threats and react on them properly.

And as we write, Ms. Baker is on her U.S. tour, incognito, as it were, lest the elves upend her furniture in the Motel 666, room 322, of course.

Actually, I do not talk about uniforms here, but situational awareness and standard operation procedures instead.


I know, I (or was it Frankie?) took the thread off on a tangent about women in uniform. What's interesting is that in the early 60s, because of WWII and Cold War conscription, nearly every man in Dealey Plaza had military experience and was quite familiar with the sound of gunfire and even, in many cases, the most unpleasant sound of being shot at.

Judyth has written a new book.It is about David Ferrie.

JFK Student wrote:Judyth has written a new book.It is about David Ferrie.

Yes, but you're going to have to wait a bit longer for some actual facts. I know Judyth. I know her MO. I know how she weaves little tiny bits of truth with research - hers or anyone else's (unpublished) work, with herself placed in the middle of it.

It's selling like hot cakes. She is quite the self-promoter.

I wonder how many will bother with the facts when they do come out - as they certainly will?

One thing - it will be too late to incorporate them into this semi-fiction.

Here is an article on Baker. Perhaps the most considerable assertion is that Carlos Marcello paid for a hotel room for her and Lee. The evidence of such associations is less forthcoming.

http://www.nola.com/books/index.ssf/2013/10/lee_harvey_oswalds_purported_m.html

here is the problem with Baker, and with other liars, like Beverly Oliver - the lives that the real people (meaning the people who were actually involved in crime, intelligence, and the assassination) led were drearier, more complex, not filled with pseudo-epiphanies and spectacular discoveries. That is why all these other narratives, of Baker, Oliver, et al, are so transparently phony. Things don't happen in these ways, people don't talk in these ways, events are more subtle in the way they impact on people, and are both more banal yet, at the same time, more significant. Their lives as they narrate them are false, bizarre and ultimately idiotic fantasies of historical convergence.  And this is born out by reading just about any other narrative which we know to be true historically, any intelligent and honest autobiography. This is why Nagell is real, for one good example. And Oliver and Baker are as fake as my Congressional Medal of Honor. And I spent as much time in bed with Jack Ruby as Judith spent sleeping with Lee Oswald. Yes, there is more truth in even Easterling's story. Just my opinion...