"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Asked at the 13 Inch Head Forum

Still not sure why Oswald was allowed to be on the front steps.....if he is Prayerman...

"Allowed" is the keyword. It assumes absolute micromanagement - which never happens - and it assumes some control over Oswald was not only wise, but possible. 

The more something is micromanaged, the more links in the chain you create and the more links, the greater chance of one failing to hold. What you do is put the basics in place and improvise as needed.

I cite the case of the female honey-trap used by the CIA  to try and get Gregory Golub to become a defector in place. Her handle refused to give her any tips or any orders on what to do or say. She was told to improvise the whole time she was with Golub. The reason given? The CIA was certain Golub would recognize any instructions given to the agent and the whole thing would be exposed. 

Oswald was led into working at the TSBD. That was all that was needed. He fails to show up that day? One of the Black workers takes the fall.

He leaves for lunch or clear photos and/or multiple witnesses place him on the steps? The above kicks in with or without Oswald as a co-conspirator.

There is also evidence of an aborted attempt earlier in the motorcade. If that had happened, no need to frame Oswald - or anyone in that building.

There may have also been plans to get Kennedy by other means at the Trade Mart had Dealey Plaza also been aborted. If it had got that far, Joe Molina and his wife take the fall (for reasons that I won't go into here).

All that was needed for the Dealey Plaza phase of the plan was 

-a hierarchy of potential patsies inside the TSBD
-the "inside man" allowing the patsy to get out and then pointing the police his way ("escape" indicating guilt)
-an inside person at the Dal-Tex
-Some tips on misdirection from a friendly magician (and he was not hard to find)
-makes sure it gets out that the patsy is a commie
-Let the DPD do what they did best - frame the first viable suspect to come into view
-Give a nod and a wink to the police arranging the "unfortunate"death of the patsy to stop a trial  

--------------

In short, the "why was he allowed" line is a red herring.

[Jake_Sykes]

Absolutely a red herring and for all the reasons you outlined Greg. Just inspired to add my own two cents having pondered this as well.

It's a red herring that takes advantage of the theatrical mindset of the average movie goer. When considering a staged event like a frame, one mistakenly imagines some Oliver Stone kind of character planning out each and every detail of each and every scene by working together with eager participants in the cast and crew. This approach does not translate to people who don't know they are participants and as you pointed out, they will quickly recognize manipulation. It works great for the execution team prior to the event; the shooters are only too happy to work in concert with the rest of the team toward the desired outcome, but as you stated, only the broad strokes of the cover up are the controllable elements that can be set up in advance, and the art of the frame is to fill it in on the fly only after the verified facts of the immediate aftermath and evolving circumstances are understood and responded to. Agents out there photographing streets, doorways, etc. works to set up a rough draft story board, but again, it's all after the fact in real time. Holes are unavoidable, back up plans to back up plans are required, as you said. One does the best one can, and does whatever it takes to get it done.

An added thought is Oswald's timing and disposition in going outside. He waited until everyone was out there and the parade was coming down Houston. If he slides out the door and essentially hides himself in the corner, he can count on nobody but the most immediate bystanders making him out. He's able to identify them through the glass from the vestibule before he goes out and knows them so he goes out to sneak a peak at what goes by. Maybe he was told to execute some instruction immediately before the p. parade. Something like a low level security assignment such as 'watch the back of the house from the domino room and make sure nobody is milling around back there when the parade comes through'. Then the parade is coming, it's too late for anything that might happen to happen before the parade goes by, so there is this operational window where he takes that bit of initiative in the last moments before it does pass and goes on out there. Later it's a brief panic until the FBI verifies with Lovelady that's not Oswald in Altgens. All cameras are confiscated and cleansed of inadvertent shots of the doorway except of course for Wegman and Darnell. Hence, a hole.

[Michael Welch]

Hi Everybody, My name is Michael Welch. I was on the Prayerman thread started by Mr. Ian Lloyd on the JFK assassination forum back in 2013. I am a Prayer Man supporter, and I do not think the second floor lunch room encounter happened. I think Mr. Truly and Officer Baker may have seen somebody like Mr. Jack Dougherty on the third or fourth floor. 
I debated Mr. Doyle with hundreds of posts in 2015 or 2016 until Duncan took Mr. Doyle's thread down. I have not posted anything anywhere since. Recently I have purchased on ebay two Dr. Pepper bottles from the 1960s and a Marine Corps ID bracelet. I have recently come across Mr. Stan Dane's and Mr. Bart Kamp's work on Youtube. I am amazed by all of their great hard work!
One thing I did discover in the Bronson film was Mr. Roy Edward Lewis running with two older black gentlemen from the corner of Houston and Main towards the presidential limousine right before the fatal head shot. Then they are in the Hughes film at the little island along with Mr. Otis Williams, so he was not behind the glass like he says.
   Thank you for everything, Sincerely yours, Michael Welch

[Vinny]

Welcome to ROKC,Michael.

[Michael Welch]

Thank you for the welcome Vinny. After studying the few seconds of Prayer Man on the Darnell and Wiegman films for years, I can say with some confidence that this is what we are looking at: Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald is holding a Dr. Pepper bottle in his right hand and this he keeps up a little higher than his left hand. In his left hand he is holding a sandwich. On his left hand he is wearing his sterling silver Marine Corps ring on his ring finger and his sterling silver ID bracelet inscribed with his name Lee on his wrist. His ring and his ID bracelet on his left hand catch and reflect the sun. No other person on the steps does this. Here are some pictures of the bracelet and ring and Mr. Oswald wearing the ring and bracelet on 11-22-63. Sincerely yours, Michael Welch

  

[Mick_Purdy]

Welcome Michael,

You might like to browse the PM thread here as well, it has some useful information in it. Although I might not share your confidence about what the unidentified figure in the Wiegman and Darnell frames might be holding I do agree that it's most likely Oswald who is standing atop of the steps in those  films.

It's true there was a soda bottle and a paper lunch bag left sitting on the steps and can been seen in some of the photographs after the assassination.

Good to have you here.

[Michael Welch]

Thank you very much Mick! If Mr. Oswald was holding a camera for instance, which is probably the only other choice for him to keep his hands up, you would expect it to reach eye level. However, it only gets up to his mouth, so it is food related. It is really important that he was wearing his ID bracelet and his Marine Corps ring on 11-22-63. The Dr. Pepper bottle is not reflective enough to do what we see, but his ring and bracelet are! Thank you again! Sincerely yours, Michael Welch

[greg_parkerAdmin]

PM on Tumblr where it has been shared a couple of times. All three posters seem to e young females with interest or expertise in criminology. 

https://conradscrime.tumblr.com/post/679938560177127424/was-lee-harvey-oswald-prayer-man?fbclid=IwAR3LVX2yIwpyegjkAmZmL8yyEepszhzpWX1sue1WEku9kOWlUMMRwtCU0zc

[Vinny]

PM on Tumblr where it has been shared a couple of times. All three posters seem to e young females with interest or expertise in criminology. 

https://conradscrime.tumblr.com/post/679938560177127424/was-lee-harvey-oswald-prayer-man?fbclid=IwAR3LVX2yIwpyegjkAmZmL8yyEepszhzpWX1sue1WEku9kOWlUMMRwtCU0zc

So many people outside the JFK research community are showing interest in PM. Great to see.

[Michael Welch]

Here is an amazing Gerda Dunckel gif. from the Hughes film from Mr. Robin Unger's Jfk photogallery. There is a glint of silver behind Mr. Lovelady from Mr. Oswald. Rosemary Willis looks like an angel dressed in white floating along in the middle of the gif. And, little 11 year old Toni Glover does a happy two handed wave on her pedestal. Thank you for everything, Sincerely yours, Michael

[Michael Welch]

The reason Mr. Oswald was small in the Prayer Man photographs was he was standing in a cut out which was seven or eight inches lower than the top landing where Mr. Frazier was standing. Many Cheers, Michael

[Michael Welch]

Back on page 24 of this thread they were debating if this was Mr. Bill Shelley or Detective Brown. It was neither. It is Mr. Arnold Rowland. He was taken along with Mr. Bill Shelley, Bonnie Ray Williams, and Mr. Danny Arce at the same time in the same police car to the Sheriff's Office.

Re: "Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

Fri 01 Nov 2013, 8:35 am

bpete1969 wrote:

Lee Farley wrote:I hope somebody does finally gets to the bottom of the Shelley-Senkel question.

I have never agreed with the consensus view that Bill Shelley is the guy wearing the black suit and tie who is seen opening the patrol car doors for Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce.  Especially when we have an unidentified male stood behind Williams and Arce.  Now, this guy (below) looks more like somebody who is being taken down to the station for questioning. I've never understood the logic behind the Shelley ID.

[size]
The man above is Det. Brown as confirmed by his partner's affidavit describing the activities in the basement when Oswald was shot.I was concerned that when Senkel said that Officer Brown had a car, that Brown might be a uniform cop.

jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/09/0920-002.gif

Det. Brown rode in the ambulance and stayed with Oswald's body until it hit the morgue.

Here's another photo of Det. brown. He's second from your left.
(I can't post links so just back out the spaces between the w's)

w w w.allposters.com/-sp/Dying-Assassin-Lee-Harvey-Oswald-in-Ambulance-after-Shot-by-Jack-Ruby-Dallas-Police-Station-Posters_i9360809_.htm

Page 13 of this thread has Gerda's GIF showing Brown.

educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19178&page=13

Page 12 of the same thread has a link to this vid.

w w w.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q

At 54 seconds, it shows the guy in the black suit in the rear driver side.

If Det. Brown is the guy in the front, and the driver is certainly a patrolman, Senkel is in the back with Williams and Arce.[/size]

[size=17]These two pictures are from the newspaper in the spring of 1964 when Mr. Amos Euins and Mr. Bob Jackson in the back row and Mr. Arnold Rowland and Mr. James Worrell front row (going left to right) are headed to give their Warren Commission testimonies.




[/size]

[Ed.Ledoux]

HAHA I'm rolling...

Billie was the one who took in Shelley and crew.
You got a similar looking young kid not a Dallas Police Detective.

Whoa are you way off Michael.



The EARS the HAIRLINE... ITS SENKLE!!!!



Thank you and you're wrong again.

[Michael Welch]

Sorry Ed, It is Mr. Arnold Rowland. All four got in the car. Keep trying though. Many Cheers, Michael

[Ed.Ledoux]

Sorry It's BL Senkle and older detective..

Cheers tho....

[barto]

Wrong Mike, it is Senkel.
Been documented as such. It was Senkel who escorted those three to the DPD.

And one bad photo of Rowland does not make him to be Senkel in a good quality pic. Acrtually the facial contours could not be more opposite from each other.

[Michael Welch]

Hi Bart and Ed, Both of you are wrong again! Mr. Rowland sets in the front passenger seat. Mr. Arce, Mr. Williams and Mr. Shelley all set in the back seat. There is no detective there. The Police officer drives them over. Bart, where is your documented proof. Keep trying though. Many Cheers, Michael

[Michael Welch]

Hi Bart and Ed, Here is what Detective B. L. Senkel actually looked like on 11-22-63. Many Cheers, Michael


Credit: Linda Zambanini

[Michael Welch]

Hi Bart and Ed, And here in this ABC film from 11-22-63, the police officer at around the 19:36 mark gently pushes Mr. Arnold Rowland to get into the front passenger side of the car. Many Cheers, Michael

[barto]

Wrong it is Senkel.


Bottom of this page (2).
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190227/m1/3/

Now then where is YOUR evidence that states Rowland travelled with Arce/Williams & Shelley.
I cannot wait to see that.

A so called observation and a belief about a photograph accounts for nothing. This type of stuff has been done for decades and in most cases it is just utter rubbish based on a belief.
It does not belong here.

[Michael Welch]

Hi Bart, Nice try. You really think Detective Senkel needs a Dallas policeman to help him into his seat????? Police Officer Brown said there were about five men that they transported. They transported four! Keep trying though. Affidavits written the next year by the DPD are full of errors. Are we supposed to believe them or a clear photograph? You can have your affidavits......... Many Cheers, Michael

[barto]

Oh 'go home' you delusional CTer. perhaps it is time to go back to MacRae's or the EF, you fit in there perfectly.

Taxi!!!!

[Michael Welch]

Come on Bart. Answer this: on your prayer man site you have C. W. Brown. He is supposed to be driving the car! It is just a regular policeman in blue driving. Where is he????? Keep trying though. Many Cheers, Michael

[Michael Welch]

And also Bart you continually call Mr. Carl Jones Mr. Roy Edward Lewis throughout this video. For example at the 8:20 mark. If you are really trying to be a truth teller, why wasn't this corrected for the public years ago???? Many Cheers, Michael

"A so called observation and a belief about a photograph accounts for nothing. This type of stuff has been done for decades and in most cases it is just utter rubbish based on a belief.
It does not belong here."----Mr. Bart Kamp April 23, 2022

[Ed.Ledoux]

So where is this ARNOLD ROWLAND RIDE document or statement.
Four is ABOUT five .... but not three or six so you're outta luck.



Michael has a young 18 year old whipper snapper as a DETECTIVE with EARS only a bat or his mother could love and a fd up hair line he went to his grave with... Not ARNIE though.



IS THIS ARNOLD


I think ARNOLD wore dark pants white socks and shirt n tie no tie clip.

Senkle Wore GREY PINSTRIPE SUIT!

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