Oswald's two cop encounters

From Mark Bridger's excellent though still flawed The Myth of the Depository Roll Call, published in The Dealey Plaza Echo, Volume 11, Issue 2

“Once inside he encountered Roy Truly and proceeded upstairs, where, within two minutes of the shooting, the pair saw Lee Harvey Oswald. Baker allegedly asked of Truly ‘This man work here’ to which Truly answered ‘Yes’.”

I know this scenario is deeply ingrained in the national psyche – thanks not only to the prominence given it by the WC, but also “thanks” to Oliver Stone and Gary Oldman who together, stunningly recreated the myth in an epic film.

The focus for those in opposition to the myth has always been that Oswald looked calm and not out of breath according to Baker, and in any case, that Oswald had no time to hide the rifle and run down for the encounter – ergo, Oswald had been on the second floor during the shooting – not on the 6th. In short, few put much doubt on the encounter actually happening on the second floor as testified to.

I have to ask at this point why, logically, should such late emerging stories carry more weight than the stories given in the first 24 hours?

Here are those stories:

Occhus Campbell quoted in NY Herald Tribune 23/11/63:"Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We saw Oswald in a small storage room on the ground floor."

Fritz’ short-hand notes (with punctuation and missing words added): "Claims 2nd floor Coke when Off[icer] came in to first floor [where I] had lunch. [Then] out with Bill Shelley in front. Left w[or]k [as] opinion [was that] nothing would be done that day."[edit: "where I" should read "where he"]

Fritz again: “I asked him what part of the building he was in at the time the President was shot, and he said that he was having his lunch about that time on the first floor. Mr. Truly had told me that one of the police officers had stopped this man mmediately after the shooting somewhere near the back stairway, so I asked Oswald where he was when the police officer stopped him. He said he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in.” (Fritz’s is "confused" by his own notes. Oswald of course, would not have said he was on the first floor at the time of the shooting, and then place himself on the second floor drinking a coke in time for the alleged Baker encounter. As I have demonstrated, all Oswald said about the 2nd floor was that this was where he got his coke).

The comment that the encounter was “near the back stairway” fits in with the Campbell quote of Oswald being in a “small store room” on the ground floor when Baker came in. Why? Because there is indeed, a small store-room on the first floor near the back stairway- and it was used to store the text-books Oswald routinely collected.

But that is not the end of it. Kent Biffle also wrote for the Dallas Morning News that Oswald had been seen by the officer (Baker) in a “storage room on the 1st floor.” Biffle did not name Truly as the source, but Truly testified that a reporter – name unknown – had eavesdropped on the conversation he had with Fritz about the now missing Oswald (From all of this, we can now be certain that Fritz knew all along that Oswald could not have been the shooter).

Oswald’s alibi according to Harry Holmes: "a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later.” (“superintendant” perhaps should read “supervisor” – Shelley?)

The Hosty – Bookhout Report: "went to the 2nd floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located & obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building." So there it is again – confirmation that Oswald only mentioned the 2nd floor in regard to getting a coke – and does not say in any way shape or form that he had a cop encounter in the short time he was up there.

Sydney Morning Herald 23/11/63 Dallas time: "During the frantic search for the President's killer, police were posted at exits to the warehouse. Police said a man, whom they identified as Oswald, walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman that 'I work here,' and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away, they said."

Baker’s 22/1163 affidavit: "As we reached the 3rd or 4th floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, 'I know that man. He works here. I then turned the man loose and went on up to the top floor..." Baker here, is referencing a completely different encounter – possibly with the actual sniper since his description was a very good match for that given by Rowland and Brennan – and also the one noted in reports out of Mexico City. It certainly did not match the real Oswald who was handcuffed in the same small office as Baker as Baker’s statement was being taken.

So what are we left with?

Oswald had two cop encounters. The first one while he was in or near a small storage room on the first floor. This involved Baker and Truly. Baker would not even bother to mention it in his same day affidavit as he knew this person could not have been the sniper.

Oswald's second cop encounter was with one or more cops who were starting to collect contact details from employees. Oswald gave his usual slightly incorrect information - and since he was the first to give his details - his name ended up on top of the list. After that, he overheard Shelley say there probably would not be any further work, so he left (see next from Lovelady's testimony).

Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill [Shelley] or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.

Baker also had two encounters. His second one was with perhaps the actual sniper and was on the 3rd or 4th floor. This person was not out of breath because it is not such a long run from 6 down to 4 or 3. He was also calm because Truly was there to vouch for him.

He was definitely NOT drinking a coke. Baker's later confusion over that was simply due to having to merge the two encounters and relocate the merged one to the second floor. But because Oswald HAD been drinking a coke on the first floor, Baker had trouble trying to work out if that should be included in the new story.

I always wonder why Roy Truly will vouch for unknown person.

Even more, this is even more confusing if we remember `great elevator shuffle` (described by Duke Lane in Education Forum and in Gillbride book) - unknown person(s) descending in elevator at the moment when Baker & Truly rush up the stairs, and Truly not informing Baker about movement of elevators.

Both these moments points out Roy Truly as involved somehow, however it seems unlikely that conspiracy involved lot of TSBD staff, especially those who work already long time (like Truly).

I always wonder why Roy Truly will vouch for unknown person.

Even more, this is even more confusing if we remember `great elevator shuffle` (described by Duke Lane in Education Forum and in Gillbride book) - unknown person(s) descending in elevator at the moment when Baker & Truly rush up the stairs, and Truly not informing Baker about movement of elevators.

Both these moments points out Roy Truly as involved somehow, however it seems unlikely that conspiracy involved lot of TSBD staff, especially those who work already long time (like Truly).

I'd agree with you as a general rule that it's unlikely to include a lot of TSBD staff - especially one's who had been there a long time.

However, the evidence against Truly is, in my opinion, substantial and convincing - and if he was in on it, then he knew exactly who it was that they ran into on the 4th floor.

As for others -- I think Piper innocently stumbled into the plot as it was unfolding while people like Williams and Givens were not part of it, but were convinced to change their stories.

since fritz' notes are getting a workover, I thought I'd give this a bump

bump

Dunno i'm a n00b 'kay

Greg,

          Quite interesting. The strongest evidence in my view is based upon the Fritz notes, Campbell's article statement, and the Baker's affidavit. Oswald's statements however, I would find more easily dismissed based on his penchant for deception. Yet if this proves true in this instance Oswald's testimony would be reliable. 

I share your view of the original evidence. The longer the duration that occurs until evidence is produced the more likely inaccuracies, and influence from outside sources can occur. I would not state this is the case in all matters. However in most proper investigations the original evidence bears significant weight.