Elevators stuck on the 5th floor

I have said previously that I have doubts that Truly saw which floors the elevators were on the day. Does anyone know when this "observation" was first reported? 

Just to add to my doubts.....

Representative FORD - And where did you get on the elevator? 
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up. 
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six? 
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up. 
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six? 
Mr. JARMAN - Yes. 
Representative FORD - This was about what time? 

They could not see the elevator on the same side when it was on 6. Maybe the same problem on 5 also.

The initial FBI report on the 23/11 (which for the life of me I can't manage to entirely insert as an image) states only that Truly and Baker merely observed that the elevators were not on the 1st floor.


 It goes on to say that "Building. Truly saw an elevator and he and the officer jumped onto the elevator and rode to the 7th floor...."

There is no mention of them noticing the lifts being stuck on the 5th from the 1st.

Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
---
Maybe that's why the first elevator escape route the FBI ran a time trial for assumed a freight elevator was on 6th floor. The other such routes assumed a freight elevator on 1st floor and passenger elevator-- up front-- was on either 4th or 1st floor.  There's no reason the Feds wouldn't follow up on Truly's observation that both freight elevators were stuck on 5th floor, unless he hadn't said it yet.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57697&relPageId=129

Paul Klein wrote:The initial FBI report on the 23/11 (which for the life of me I can't manage to entirely insert as an image) states only that Truly and Baker merely observed that the elevators were not on the 1st floor.


 It goes on to say that "Building. Truly saw an elevator and he and the officer jumped onto the elevator and rode to the 7th floor...."

There is no mention of them noticing the lifts being stuck on the 5th from the 1st.

Mr. BELIN - All right. This was on the first floor, and did you look up the elevator shaft at that time?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; at that time I did.
Mr. BELIN - This was while Mr. Truly was calling for the elevator?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Was there any kind of a gate between you and the elevator shaft?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; there was.
Mr. BELIN - Wood or metal, do you remember?
Mr. BAKER - It is wood.
Mr. BELIN - What did you see when you looked up the elevator shaft?
Mr. BAKER - At that time I thought there was just one elevator there, you know, one big freight elevator, and to me they looked like they were up there, I didn't know how many floors in that building but you could see them up there, it looked like just at that time, I thought it was just one, when I looked up there, and it looked to me anywhere from three to four floors up.

--------------------

What really caught my eye in the FBI report though was how it says they left the second floor and ran up to the 5th.

Here is Baker again:

Mr. BELIN - At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot remember, I don't know.
Mr. BAKER - Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the elevator.
Mr. BAKER - At some higher floor after that?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here.

I know I hammer this, but I believe Baker would remember running up more than one floor from where the encounter happened in order to jump on an elevator.

And Belin seemed to understand the problem because he immediately gets Baker to agree it was "on some higher floor" rather than just one floor higher - and then immediately goes off the record. 

If they really did only run up one floor from where the encounter happened in order to get an elevator, then the encounter was on the 4th - as per Baker's Nov 22nd statement.

I don't know the answer to the specific question about Truly's observation, but I sense that the west elevator was on the 5th floor.

If we accept BRW's early affidavit, then it looks like he, HN and JJ took the west elevator from the 1st to the 5th floor very shortly before the assassination, presumably altering the plans of conspirators. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the assassin (and accomplice?) on the 6th floor had attempted to place the freight elevators - from their point of view - at 'ideal' locations, with the west elevator on the 1st floor and the east elevator on the 5th or 6th floor.

Truly's story about the west elevator being 'stuck' seems unlikely. Were JD (or another individual) aware of the unexpected arrival of the black workers, he could have sent the elevator back down to the 1st floor. Is there not a reference to workers being careful to close the two sets of gates such that the west elevator could be summoned from any floor? Why would BRW, HN and JJ fail to close the gates on this occasion?

In his early affidavit, Williams said he and his colleagues took an elevator down to the 4th floor after 'officers came up'. This presumably meant Baker.

If BRW and co. took the west elevator, then Baker's story that he took the east elevator from the 5th to the 7th floor is possibly true, implying that either Jarman erred in his Warren testimony about the east elevator being on the 6th floor or that it descended from the 6th to the 5th very shortly before or after the assassination. It would also clearly mean that a 6th floor assassin would have to escape by the stairs.

Possible alternatives are:

1) if BRW and co. summoned the west elevator from the 7th floor after Baker and Truly took it instead of the east elevator. This scenario would have an assassin escaping by the east elevator and Baker lying in his Warren testimony.

2) if BRW and co. took the east elevator from the 5th floor, with the west elevator having descended earlier. This scenario would also have Baker lying in his Warren testimony.


I feel there may be too much emphasis on an elevator escape being the 'best' option. It would have offered the prospect of speed at the expense of vulnerability. The stairs permitted the possibility of turning back or walking across a floor should ascending footsteps being heard. Of course, should you be approached by a police officer then the excuse that you were an employee might get you off the hook!

It may also be that Truly's shouting from the 1st floor caused a change of plan - an abortive descent of the east elevator?

What do we make of Williams, Norman and Jarman's decision to descend only one floor rather than head straight to the 1st floor?

Greg,
what's crazy is Baker's testified to the WC on March 24, 1964 and yet on March 20 Truly and Mrs. Reid had just re-enacted their movements in the TSBD. Baker's story should have been flawless-- he didn't have to describe what he saw in November, he could describe what he had seen just 4 days before (for example, Belin could have had someone walk past the door's window while Baker watched from the landing). There's no reason for Baker to trip over how many more floors he and Truly grabbed an elevator, but he does.

Redfern wrote:I don't know the answer to the specific question about Truly's observation, but I sense that the west elevator was on the 5th floor.

If we accept BRW's early affidavit, then it looks like he, HN and JJ took the west elevator from the 1st to the 5th floor very shortly before the assassination, presumably altering the plans of conspirators. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the assassin (and accomplice?) on the 6th floor had attempted to place the freight elevators - from their point of view - at 'ideal' locations, with the west elevator on the 1st floor and the east elevator on the 5th or 6th floor.

Truly's story about the west elevator being 'stuck' seems unlikely. Were JD (or another individual) aware of the unexpected arrival of the black workers, he could have sent the elevator back down to the 1st floor. Is there not a reference to workers being careful to close the two sets of gates such that the west elevator could be summoned from any floor? Why would BRW, HN and JJ fail to close the gates on this occasion?

In his early affidavit, Williams said he and his colleagues took an elevator down to the 4th floor after 'officers came up'. This presumably meant Baker.

If BRW and co. took the west elevator, then Baker's story that he took the east elevator from the 5th to the 7th floor is possibly true, implying that either Jarman erred in his Warren testimony about the east elevator being on the 6th floor or that it descended from the 6th to the 5th very shortly before or after the assassination. It would also clearly mean that a 6th floor assassin would have to escape by the stairs.

Possible alternatives are:

1) if BRW and co. summoned the west elevator from the 7th floor after Baker and Truly took it instead of the east elevator. This scenario would have an assassin escaping by the east elevator and Baker lying in his Warren testimony.

2) if BRW and co. took the east elevator from the 5th floor, with the west elevator having descended earlier. This scenario would also have Baker lying in his Warren testimony.


I feel there may be too much emphasis on an elevator escape being the 'best' option. It would have offered the prospect of speed at the expense of vulnerability. The stairs permitted the possibility of turning back or walking across a floor should ascending footsteps being heard. Of course, should you be approached by a police officer then the excuse that you were an employee might get you off the hook!

It may also be that Truly's shouting from the 1st floor caused a change of plan - an abortive descent of the east elevator?

What do we make of Williams, Norman and Jarman's decision to descend only one floor rather than head straight to the 1st floor?

The official version has Williams essentially responsible for controlling the east elevator in the minutes prior to the shooting. Unfortunately Williams (and Norman) various statements over time are less than convincing but the final evolution has him as the operator of the elevator that would be the most useful to an assassin as it is solely controlled by the operator.

If we go with the final version in his WC testimony he is responsible for bringing it up to the 6th from the 1st. At some time later he takes it down to the 5th to view the motorcade. It stays in this position until taken by Truly and Baker to the 7th.

As for the west elevator Norman and Jarman take it from the 1st to the 5th sometime after 12.20 or so. Arriving on the 5th, they shut the gates. The official version works if Dougherty then calls it down to the first and he takes it to the 6th and then down to the 5th, leaving the gates open, therefore not able to be called down by Truly.

Colin Crow wrote:

Redfern wrote:I don't know the answer to the specific question about Truly's observation, but I sense that the west elevator was on the 5th floor.

If we accept BRW's early affidavit, then it looks like he, HN and JJ took the west elevator from the 1st to the 5th floor very shortly before the assassination, presumably altering the plans of conspirators. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the assassin (and accomplice?) on the 6th floor had attempted to place the freight elevators - from their point of view - at 'ideal' locations, with the west elevator on the 1st floor and the east elevator on the 5th or 6th floor.

Truly's story about the west elevator being 'stuck' seems unlikely. Were JD (or another individual) aware of the unexpected arrival of the black workers, he could have sent the elevator back down to the 1st floor. Is there not a reference to workers being careful to close the two sets of gates such that the west elevator could be summoned from any floor? Why would BRW, HN and JJ fail to close the gates on this occasion?

In his early affidavit, Williams said he and his colleagues took an elevator down to the 4th floor after 'officers came up'. This presumably meant Baker.

If BRW and co. took the west elevator, then Baker's story that he took the east elevator from the 5th to the 7th floor is possibly true, implying that either Jarman erred in his Warren testimony about the east elevator being on the 6th floor or that it descended from the 6th to the 5th very shortly before or after the assassination. It would also clearly mean that a 6th floor assassin would have to escape by the stairs.

Possible alternatives are:

1) if BRW and co. summoned the west elevator from the 7th floor after Baker and Truly took it instead of the east elevator. This scenario would have an assassin escaping by the east elevator and Baker lying in his Warren testimony.

2) if BRW and co. took the east elevator from the 5th floor, with the west elevator having descended earlier. This scenario would also have Baker lying in his Warren testimony.


I feel there may be too much emphasis on an elevator escape being the 'best' option. It would have offered the prospect of speed at the expense of vulnerability. The stairs permitted the possibility of turning back or walking across a floor should ascending footsteps being heard. Of course, should you be approached by a police officer then the excuse that you were an employee might get you off the hook!

It may also be that Truly's shouting from the 1st floor caused a change of plan - an abortive descent of the east elevator?

What do we make of Williams, Norman and Jarman's decision to descend only one floor rather than head straight to the 1st floor?

The official version has Williams essentially responsible for controlling the east elevator in the minutes prior to the shooting. Unfortunately Williams (and Norman) various statements over time are less than convincing but the final evolution has him as the operator of the elevator that would be the most useful to an assassin as it is solely controlled by the operator.

If we go with the final version in his WC testimony he is responsible for bringing it up to the 6th from the 1st. At some time later he takes it down to the 5th to view the motorcade. It stays in this position until taken by Truly and Baker to the 7th.

As for the west elevator Norman and Jarman take it from the 1st to the 5th sometime after 12.20 or so. Arriving on the 5th, they shut the gates. The official version works if Dougherty then calls it down to the first and he takes it to the 6th and then down to the 5th, leaving the gates open, therefore not able to be called down by Truly.

I think they needed to put Williams on the 6th floor to account for the chicken and soft drinks bottle and - perhaps - to explain Arnold Rowland's sighting, even although Williams was not 'elderly'.

There seem to be signs during the Warren hearings that maybe because the official story had changed so much Baker and the TSBD employees were confused at what the final version was meant to be and consequently strayed 'off message' on several occasions. or feigned ignorance.

The only significant statements before the official TSBD story began to emerge were those of Baker and Williams taken during the afternoon of the 22nd.

I have been scouring for pictures of the elevators to get my head around the gates. In the graphic below A,B,E and F are of the west elevator. C,D and G are the east elevator.

E and G are taken looking out of their respective elevators. Notice the vertical slats in the west but not east. I think this was an internal gate and F indicates they may have been separate from the outer horizontal gate.

It also appears that the west horizontal slatted gate was higher than the east, maybe a foot or so.

I believe A is taken looking west and both elevators are not on the 6th floor, the camera held about the 4 ft high east gate.

Appreciate thoughts.

What I see in these images is that the east and west elevators had different gating systems. The west had an internal verticle slat gate that was independant of the horizontal exterior gate.

Also it would appear that the wast external gate was marginally higher than the east. Between 6 and 12 inches maybe.

I am thinking that this might have interfered with Truly sighting the bottom of the west elevator at the 5th floor. Certainly the east elevator bottom was not visible to Jarman and Norman when looking up the gap in the east elevator gate. A taller west gate may have made it equallly difficult to see the bottom of the west elevator at the level of the 5th floor for Truly.

I do have somewhere photographs of the eastern elevator that I took [under deep cover] during one of my visits to the sixth floor museum.

I'll see if I can dig them out.

Thanks Lee.

What I would like is feedback from others about a couple of things.

1 The horizontal slatted gates are higher on the western elevator compared to the east. Somewhere between 6" to a foot.

2. The gates for the west elevator have an internal and likely independant, vertical slatted gate. This component is likely drawn down when using the elevator. The horizontal gate is on each floor and drawn up or down from the roller compartment at the top of the frame.

Colin Crow wrote:Thanks Lee.

What I would like is feedback from others about a couple of things.

1 The horizontal slatted gates are higher on the western elevator compared to the east. Somewhere between 6" to a foot.

2. The gates for the west elevator have an internal and likely independant, vertical slatted gate. This component is likely drawn down when using the elevator. The horizontal gate is on each floor and drawn up or down from the roller compartment at the top of the frame.

When you say the gates for the west elevator have an internal and likely independent vertical slatted gate, does this imply that the east elevator does not have an internal and likely independent vertical slatted gate? And what is the significance of having, or not having, an internal independent gate? Safety, I would say?
 
Elevators are systems that use logic circuits. In other words, certain conditions must be met before an elevator can move. Doors/gates must be closed/properly positioned (confirmed by interlock switches), and then other decision making processes as to which floor to go to (in the event of multiple requests) are built into the simple logic circuits.
 
I would be curious as what role these gates played in the overall logic scheme. In other words, could an elevator be called to action independent of the position of its gates? I wouldn't think so. Since the two elevators appear to be different, I also wonder if they were made by the same manufacturer, or if they are different models by the same manufacturer. Their operating logic is different.
 
If one is trying to understand why these elevators did or did not move, understanding the elevator logic would be important, IMO.

BTW, nice job of digging up those elevator pictures, Colin. I did a search a couple weeks ago and came up with diddly-squat.

Stan Dane wrote:

If one is trying to understand why these elevators did or did not move, understanding the elevator logic would be important, IMO.

BTW, nice job of digging up those elevator pictures, Colin. I did a search a couple weeks ago and came up with diddly-squat.

Colin, Good job on the photos and I join Stan in wondering the intended purposes of the elevators, if indeed they each had separate priorities. Not that any of it may actually matter to the case, just curious.

Stan, you came up with diddly-squat... but why didn't you post it?

terlin wrote:Stan, you came up with diddly-squat... but why didn't you post it?

Oh well, since you insist:
 

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan, would it be possible to order two (2), one with vertical slatted gate and one without so I could re-enact the movements in the TSBD. Hopefully, I can have the recreation worked out in the five years so there won't be any interest... as there seems to be plenty at the moment.

And, yes, I am not in the greater Dallas, TX, region. So that shouldn't be a problem...

Analysis of the TSBD Elevators.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1z55OYlebervUrX5RbuTbxKbykDBkOBcg

The Mystery of the West Elevator WC Doc March 25 1964
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1E08BpJFrt828CTYTWw5KYLxgkMH1rvtu

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt.

barto wrote:Analysis of the TSBD Elevators.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1z55OYlebervUrX5RbuTbxKbykDBkOBcg

The Mystery of the West Elevator WC Doc March 25 1964
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1E08BpJFrt828CTYTWw5KYLxgkMH1rvtu

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt.

Thanks Barto. As for the west elevator it still seems most likely to me that from the WC testimonies Jarman and Norman took that elevator up about 12.20pm. After arriving there they shut the gate allowing it to be "called". Williams had already taken the east elevator up to the sixth some time between noon and 12.15 effectively "locking" it on that floor. He took it down to the 5th, joining Jarman and Norman shortly before the shooting. It stayed there until Truly and Baker took it to the 7th.

After Jarman and Norman arrived on the 5th floor and shut the west elevator gate,  Dougherty called it down to the first and took it to the 6th. He claimed he did this to get stock and then took it to the 5th to do similar. He must have left the gates open as it was not able to be called by Truly just after the shooting. He must have moved it after they took the stairs and then returned it when Truly and Baker came back down in the east elevator about 10 minutes later.

This is the best analysis I can come up with from the "official" version. One must remember that Ball and Belin spent much time in Dallas in March before these witnesses appeared to testify.....ie this is the synthesis of their various re-enactments.