Mr. Oswald, going ... down? (TSBD elevators/Prayer Man)

This is about the use of elevators in the TSBD at the time of the assassination.

I'm 50 years old and have had a lifelong fascination with the JFK assassination, but was unaware that all the talk of "conspiracy" was anything more than nuttiness until I saw Oliver Stone's film in 1991. I've never had a moviegoing experience like that, before or since. It changed who I am. I've probably read 30 or 40 books on the topic in the 30+ years since.

I recently finished Stan Dane's Prayer Man, which brought me to this forum. While I find the case for PM to be LHO to be very compelling, it's probably ultimately impossible to prove. But the most interesting subject in that book, and which takes up most of the pages, is the evidence that the Second-Floor Lunchroom Encounter (2FLE) never happened, or rather that it was, in line with the Prayer Man theory, transplanted from the front steps of the TSBD.

It wasn't the first time I'd come across the theory that the 2FLE never happened (actually think I read that in DiEugenio's Reclaiming Parkland), but watching Sean Murphy put it together in that way, with the evolving and conflicting testimony forcing it to resolve in such a way, was far more impressive than the Prayer Man theory on its own, and in fact is sort of the backbone of PM.

But my question here is only tangentially related to the PM theory. You see, if there is any one piece of evidence that has always sealed Oswald as innocent in my eyes, it's the 2FLE. I remember reading Barry Ernest's book when it came out and thinking, "That's it. That seals it for me." I say this topic is tangential to the Prayer Man because the alleged 2FLE—convincingly revised in Prayer Man as a sort of best-we-can-possibly-do compromise to keep Oswald off the first floor of the TSBD at the time of the shooting (if not actually out front), only strengthens the case for Oswald's innocence in the JFK case. 

Thing is, the more I'd thought about it (prior to reading Prayer Man), there is a circular pattern here which turns this best evidence of Oswald's innocence back into a possible case for his guilt. And that is simply this: If Oswald could not have gotten down to the second floor, and certainly not the first, without encountering an ascending Truly and Baker, then no one else could have, either. Hence, if you believe there was an assassin on the sixth floor at all, it may as well have been Oswald as anyone else.

Which brings us to elevators.

My thought above was always based on two other factors, at least one of which I now know is not true.
1) No depository employee testified to witnessing the presence of any unknown persons in the building that day (with the exception of someone who was shown inside in the morning and then escorted out).
2) The elevators were not working AT ALL after the assassination. 

I'm not sure where I picked up the impression that the elevators did not function at all, or how I've held on to that for so long, but there it is. From reading Prayer Man, it's clear to me now that it wasn't so much a matter of the elevators not functioning as it was a matter of how they functioned. I.e., the west elevator could only be called remotely if the gate was closed, and the east elevator could only be operated manually from the inside (I believe this is correct).

So now my questions—

1) Why is it always assumed that Oswald, if he were the sixth floor assassin, came down the stairs? This presumption seems baked into the cake and is common to CTs and LNs alike. If there was even a slim chance of use of an elevator by Oswald, surely someone out there would have tried to make that case. If no one has, there must be an ironclad reason. I assume the explanation here is a simple one, but bear in mind I've never read the Warren Report. 

2) And now the real meat of my interest. Somewhere in the middle of Prayer Man, the author closes a very interesting discussion of elevators by declaring: "[T]he subject of the TSBD elevators relating to the assassination is very interesting and worth exploring further.' AND THEN DROPS THE TOPIC. 

Well yes! It is interesting! Tell me more!

As skillfully as Murphy builds his case, he drops what appear to me to be two bombshell assertions, with only a bit of evidence for one and none for the other: 1) Truly and Baker actually ascended in the west elevator and didn't take the stairs at all (evidence, such as there is, is tied to the revelation of the 2FLE incident as contrived), and 2) The assassin(s) got away in the east elevator.

To tie this all together, I've long wondered, if there was an active assassin on the sixth floor who wasn't Oswald, how he/they got out of the building. They must have done so very quickly indeed. When this is combined with the claim that no TSBD employee claimed to have seen any person in the building who was unknown to them that day, this "escape" must have involved a great deal of pre-planning and expedience.

To close on a related side-note, there are scenes in the 1991 film JFK, toward the end after Costner/Garrison says "So what really happened that day? Let's just for a moment speculate shall we ...," in which we see an entire TEAM of shooters and spotters get into position on the sixth floor. I mean, holy cow, they've got guns and binoculars and walkie-talkies! After the assassination there's a bit of dialogue in which one of them mutters, "We did it, buddy, now let's get out of here." Now, though I am a huge fan of the film, if it is true that no one in the depository saw anyone unknown to them in the building that day, then that dramatization feels comically absurd.

Finally, I understand that there was actually a third elevator in the building, toward the front. I believe it's on the first floor but I'm unaware of how many floors it goes up. All the way to the top? Haven't seen much discussion of this one.

Welcome to the forum, Absinthe.

At least parts of the building momentarily lost power within a minute or two after the assassination. Could this have been to keep an elevator in place to enable an escaping 6th floor shooter to perhaps hide on top of an elevator and then enter the cabin of the elevator through the emergency hatch at the top?

I wonder how feasible it would have been for a shooter to have gone up to the 7th floor, hide out and then descend the stairs and mix in with the rush of Dallas Police, Sheriffs, newsmen and others. I don’t know when the TSBD was “sealed off” and how tightly, particularly exits other than the front. Such an escape would require spotters perhaps even TSBD employees. Most of the focus of the search of the building centered on the 5th and 6th floor, the 6th floor in particular once the shells were found. If the shells were planted or left there to focus attention, why hide the rifle?

The report of no strangers seen in the building by other TSBD employees is really applicable until 39-15 minutes before the assassination when most employees left the building to watch the motorcade. After the assassination, most employees were prohibited from entering the building and there were several strangers - the police and newsmen. 

If the reports of witnesses who saw men with rifles on the 6th floor several minutes before the assassination are to be believed, they felt pretty comfortable in the building.

Absinthe wrote:Finally, I understand that there was actually a third elevator in the building, toward the front. I believe it's on the first floor but I'm unaware of how many floors it goes up. All the way to the top? Haven't seen much discussion of this one.

Absinthe? Isn't that the stuff that makes the heart grow fonder?

The front elevator was put in during renovations done prior to the TSBD and publishers moving in. From memory it only went to the 2nd floor. I believe it may have been visible to Baker had he actually ran into the building as claimed. If so, why did he not go direct to it since he would not have known it only went up one floor? 

A five year old could find their own way to the top of any building simply by going up the stairs. But Baker needed help? I don't think so.

A cop looking for an armed assassin allows an unarmed civilian to lead him up because he is too stupid to find his own way to the top? I don't think so.

Whilst Stan's book (based on the Ed Forum thread) correctly posits a cop encounter happened on the first floor - it incorrectly assumes it was Baker. And some still think it was Baker, either on the first, second, third or fourth - the latter two perhis initial statement. 

But this document - which was not known about at the time Murphy was digging into this, indicates that Roy Truly and Det Erich Kaminski were stationed at the door. Kaminski was checking ID of those leaving to obtain contact details for further questioning and Truly was vouching that they were employed in the building. Put another way... when Truly said, "he's okay, he works here", he was saying it to Kaminski as part of clearing Oswald to leave. It was never said to Baker - not on any floor of that building.  

As soon as he allowed Oswald to leave, Truly reported him missing. 

Welcome aboard.

Absinthe wrote:To close on a related side-note, there are scenes in the 1991 film JFK, toward the end after Costner/Garrison says "So what really happened that day? Let's just for a moment speculate shall we ...," in which we see an entire TEAM of shooters and spotters get into position on the sixth floor. I mean, holy cow, they've got guns and binoculars and walkie-talkies! After the assassination there's a bit of dialogue in which one of them mutters, "We did it, buddy, now let's get out of here." Now, though I am a huge fan of the film, if it is true that no one in the depository saw anyone unknown to them in the building that day, then that dramatization feels comically absurd.

It does sound comically absurd.

But there is evidence from Harold Norman indicating that a team of outside contractors were working on the flooring and that the TSBD laborers merely helped out when they had nothing else to do , by moving stock out of the way. Bonnie Ray Williams testified that he helped by cutting the plywood sometimes and helping to move stock out of the way. 

Mr. BALL. And what did they put you to work at at that time?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor, they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow, and they were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time. So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood.


Mr. DULLES. Mr. Williams, were all the boxes of books moved out of this area while you were working, or as you finished a part of it, were some boxes put back in?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To begin with, I think we were working on the wall first. I don't think we moved too many books in this area. I think we just moved them out and right back in, as I remember. But I think after we got a little further over, I think we had to move some books. We had to move these books to the east side of this building, over here, and those books--I would say this would be the window Oswald shot the President from. We moved these books kind of like in a row like that, kind of winding them around.

This was apparently the first time in the history of the company that they looked for work to keep people on during slow trimes, at least according to Charles Givens:

Mr. BELIN. Was there any period of time that you haven't worked there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What happened then?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I Just, you know, sometimes I had some days to layoff during the slack season, like it is now, and when it' is rush season he calls you back.
Mr. BELIN. So it was just a question of being laid off during the slack season?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

"Now" was April, 1964.

The Fall was was supposed to be the busy period. In fact according to company VP, Ochus Campbell, business was booming during November, 1963 - so there whould have been no need to find work for the laborers - either laying the floors or helping contractors lay the floors.

I think that it is safe accept Norman's claim that there was an external crew working there during October/November and that as a result, they were not taken to be strangers by anyone. It does appear that they were up there working causing dust and debris to fall on the heads of at least one of the three amigos watching the parade on the 5th floor. It is possible that the contractors staggered their lunch break and that some left before the laborers - others, straight after the assassination. 

Nor were the carpenters the only external contractors wandering around the building during November. There was also a bunch of "efficiency" esperts with access to all areas.Refer back to the "business was booming" document for details about those guys. And again - no one would have considered them strangers. 

If ever Peter Dale Scott's negative template should be applied, it is to these hidden/burried aspects of who who was in that building. 

So yeah... a team does some comical... but the reality is, it was possible, without being the least bit comical.

greg_parker wrote:
But this document - which was not known about at the time Murphy was digging into this, indicates that Roy Truly and Det Erich Kaminski were stationed at the door. Kaminski was checking ID of those leaving to obtain contact details for further questioning and Truly was vouching that they were employed in the building. Put another way... when Truly said, "he's okay, he works here", he was saying it to Kaminski as part of clearing Oswald to leave. It was never said to Baker - not on any floor of that building.  

As soon as he allowed Oswald to leave, Truly reported him missing. 

The Prayer Man theory has really intensified my interest in the goings on within the TSBD immediately prior to and following the assassination. I get the feeling that there are many instances that, like the 2FLE, have been concocted from half-truths or quarter-truths and have gained inertia over the years until, through sheer repetition, they are just accepted. I also have an instinct that there are people who were in that building who know things that they've never breathed a word about. 

Example. In Prayer Man there is an account of Robert Groden saying in a radio interview around 2011 that he had interviewed a very reluctant witness who said that she was handing Oswald change for the Coke machine when the sound of the shots was heard. Groden said that the wtiness made him vow never to reveal her story until after her death, that she had in fact died about 10 years prior, and that the full information would be coming in his next book. The most likely candidate for this person is apparently Geneva Hine, but to my knowledge Groden has never published anything to support this claim. I don't even know what he's up to these days. His website seems to be down.

There are still things that bother me about some of the claims in Prayer Man. For instance, Sean's claim that Truly and Baker actually ascended the TSBD in the west elevator. It's not really clear what the basis for this claim is, though it does seem consistent with the lack of witnesses having seen or passed the officer and superintendent on the stairs. However, if it's true, then in fact the elevators were not stuck on upper floors immediately after the assassination. And if the Warren Commission had issues with Oswald being spotted on the first/second floor so soon after shots were fired, it would make more sense for Baker (whether coerced or not) to simply state honestly that there was an elevator on the ground floor when he arrived. 

This elevator business is really bugging me. If you believe, as I assume most people do, that shots were in fact fired from the sixth floor window, then the shooter(s), whether Oswald or not (Mac Wallace??), had to get away. It honestly beggars belief that any "unknown" person or persons could pull this off, whether by stairs or elevator. And if a gun other than the 6.5 MC was involved, where did it go? Witnesses place a man or men with a rifle in the sixth floor window, and I believe them. Seems unlikely that such a well-planned assassination would actually rely on this shoddy weapon. Was the MC fired only as part of the setup of Oswald? Seems like a tremendous risk to take if one were not actually shooting at the target. 

It's hard to credit a level of professionalism and planning sufficient that pros would feel confident about committing such a crime in such a place. It feels like the enviroment would almost have to be completely controlled. Owned, you might say. Which brings me to William Weston's article, which I find pretty interesting.

absinthe wrote:

greg_parker wrote:
But this document - which was not known about at the time Murphy was digging into this, indicates that Roy Truly and Det Erich Kaminski were stationed at the door. Kaminski was checking ID of those leaving to obtain contact details for further questioning and Truly was vouching that they were employed in the building. Put another way... when Truly said, "he's okay, he works here", he was saying it to Kaminski as part of clearing Oswald to leave. It was never said to Baker - not on any floor of that building.  

As soon as he allowed Oswald to leave, Truly reported him missing. 

The Prayer Man theory has really intensified my interest in the goings on within the TSBD immediately prior to and following the assassination. I get the feeling that there are many instances that, like the 2FLE, have been concocted from half-truths or quarter-truths and have gained inertia over the years until, through sheer repetition, they are just accepted. I also have an instinct that there are people who were in that building who know things that they've never breathed a word about. 

Example. In Prayer Man there is an account of Robert Groden saying in a radio interview around 2011 that he had interviewed a very reluctant witness who said that she was handing Oswald change for the Coke machine when the sound of the shots was heard. Groden said that the wtiness made him vow never to reveal her story until after her death, that she had in fact died about 10 years prior, and that the full information would be coming in his next book. The most likely candidate for this person is apparently Geneva Hine, but to my knowledge Groden has never published anything to support this claim. I don't even know what he's up to these days. His website seems to be down.

There are still things that bother me about some of the claims in Prayer Man. For instance, Sean's claim that Truly and Baker actually ascended the TSBD in the west elevator. It's not really clear what the basis for this claim is, though it does seem consistent with the lack of witnesses having seen or passed the officer and superintendent on the stairs. However, if it's true, then in fact the elevators were not stuck on upper floors immediately after the assassination. And if the Warren Commission had issues with Oswald being spotted on the first/second floor so soon after shots were fired, it would make more sense for Baker (whether coerced or not) to simply state honestly that there was an elevator on the ground floor when he arrived. 

This elevator business is really bugging me. If you believe, as I assume most people do, that shots were in fact fired from the sixth floor window, then the shooter(s), whether Oswald or not (Mac Wallace??), had to get away. It honestly beggars belief that any "unknown" person or persons could pull this off, whether by stairs or elevator. And if a gun other than the 6.5 MC was involved, where did it go? Witnesses place a man or men with a rifle in the sixth floor window, and I believe them. Seems unlikely that such a well-planned assassination would actually rely on this shoddy weapon. Was the MC fired only as part of the setup of Oswald? Seems like a tremendous risk to take if one were not actually shooting at the target. 

It's hard to credit a level of professionalism and planning sufficient that pros would feel confident about committing such a crime in such a place. It feels like the enviroment would almost have to be completely controlled. Owned, you might say. Which brings me to William Weston's article, which I find pretty interesting.

Sean's theory evolved over the time he was discussing it privately and online. Since his unfortunate departure from the scene, it has continued to evolve. I have a nunber of disagreements with it now - but the main premise remains steadfast and indeed, further supported each time more evidence surfaces. 

The elevator issue becomes mute if you accept that Baker did not immediately run inside 411. 

There is a school of thought that footage of Baker, in fact shows Baker on a trajectory to run past the building and more toward the Dal-Tex. 

His first day statement may in fact support his running into that building - not 411 Elm. 

• Up until earlier in the year, the TSBD had been on the 1st floor of the Dal-Tex.
  
• He admits he does not know if it is 411 Elm or the Dal Tex (or both?) that the pigeons flew off of.
  
• Baker's statement notes he encountered someone on the 3rd or 4th floor
  
• Jim Braden was arrested after having been on the 3rd floor of the Dal-Tex
  
• Baker claimed he was led up the stairs by the building manager. Neither Truly nor any other employee refered to him as "building manager". He was always referenced as "building superintendent".
  

It never made sense to me that Truly needed to show a cop how to get to the top of the building and thus put his own life at risk. 

What I think really happened was that Baker had a brief conversation with another cop about the arrest of Braden and went into the Dal-Tex to check if there were any other unauthorized persons on the 3rd floor. 

In that scenario, the encounter makes sense. Baker sees a man on that floor and the building manager who went up with him, says "no- he is okay - he works here". He is not looking for an assassin here as such... merely "unauthorized persons" who may or may not be of investigative interest. 

So there are two encounters that are being covered up and replaced by a phony 2FLE. 

1. Baker + Dal-Tex office manager + unknown Dal Tex employee on 3rd floor of Dal-Tex

2. Kaminski + Truly + Oswald at front entrance of 411 Elm.

Example. In Prayer Man there is an account of Robert Groden saying in a radio interview around 2011 that he had interviewed a very reluctant witness who said that she was handing Oswald change for the Coke machine when the sound of the shots was heard. Groden said that the wtiness made him vow never to reveal her story until after her death, that she had in fact died about 10 years prior, and that the full information would be coming in his next book. The most likely candidate for this person is apparently Geneva Hine, but to my knowledge Groden has never published anything to support this claim. I don't even know what he's up to these days. His website seems to be down.

 Groden wrote about it in his 2013 book Absolute Proof. Unfortunately it was a hoax. Gordon seems to have made up the witness. Here are two threads about it.


https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t559-geraldean-reid#5560

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2330-groden-and-his-so-called-witness#35138

“What I think really happened was that Baker had a brief conversation with another cop about the arrest of Braden and went into the Dal-Tex to check if there were any other unauthorized persons on the 3rd floor.”


From Braden’s statement, he was arrested as he was leaving the Dal-Tex building which must have been at least several minutes after the assassination as Braden stated he was aware of the assassination before he entered the building. Apparently, it was the elevator operator who pointed out Braden to the cop. 


Perhaps I’m misreading what you are saying, but it seems there are several minutes unaccounted for between the time Baker parked his motorcycle in front of the TSBD and the time he conferred with the cop about Braden’s arrest.


https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340070/m1/1/

lanceman wrote:“What I think really happened was that Baker had a brief conversation with another cop about the arrest of Braden and went into the Dal-Tex to check if there were any other unauthorized persons on the 3rd floor.”


From Braden’s statement, he was arrested as he was leaving the Dal-Tex building which must have been at least several minutes after the assassination as Braden stated he was aware of the assassination before he entered the building. Apparently, it was the elevator operator who pointed out Braden to the cop. 


Perhaps I’m misreading what you are saying, but it seems there are several minutes unaccounted for between the time Baker parked his motorcycle in front of the TSBD and the time he conferred with the cop about Braden’s arrest.


https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340070/m1/1/

There is a lot more detail in his HSCA testimony.
www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=19906#relPageId=75

His story just doesn't male sense and it is clear from the questioning that the HSCA was dubious about it as well.

Essentially he says he goes into the building despite a lot of cops outside with guns. That should have made the average person reconsider how much they needed to make a phone call right then and there. But someone with Braden's record should have been ultra wary of it. 

He is taken in a crowded freight elevator to the 3rd floor, spots the phone, but is told it is out of order. Asks how to get out and is pointed to thairs, buhe ignores that goes back to the frieght elevator and returns to the 1st floor with operator who, by the time they reach the first floor, is having a panic attack about Braden and rushes out to tell the cops that Braden was in the building without authorization. Braden follows him to make sure the cops don't open fire on him.

The cops ask for ID, he flashes a credit card, and then take him for questioning.

-----------

My issue is why the elevator operator suddenly got panicky about Braden. By Braden's account, the operator knew he rode up shortly before with him - and as you say - supposedly well after the assassination. 

Why doesn't the operator for example, just assume Braden is a plain clothes cop? Why, so long after the assassination, is he so concerned about a stranger he allegedly knew entered AFTER the asssination?

But if you pull this all back in time, it suddenly makes sense.

Braden was not put off about all the armed cops outside, because it was prior to the assassination they were not ready to shoot anyone.

The operator was panicked coming down with Braden because he took Braden up BEFORE the assassination. and back down AFTER the assassination. 

And no, I don't think Braden was a shooter.

I agree Braden’s story is dodgy, to say the least. Amazingly similar to Larry Florer’s story, except Florer went to the 3rd floor of the County Records building.

https://www.jfk-online.com/florer.html

Still, Baker probably parked his bike and could have conferred with the cop on Elm and Houston within 30 seconds after the last shot. Would there have been enough time for Braden to have exited the Dal-Tex building and be pointed out?

Braden
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1konLCy8tu382vVBZvJV138ySe7O-mqOM/view?usp=share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14QgXorRbN4Yy3sYgOUKHCX4nQuRXfxKk/view?usp=share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DO8wSD47hsRG7t0JAQCmUHtxGxnbsmxa/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vz-_v0NevPF-aYhW7dU5cisR74r7yIcL/view?usp=sharing

lanceman wrote:I agree Braden’s story is dodgy, to say the least. Amazingly similar to Larry Florer’s story, except Florer went to the 3rd floor of the County Records building.

https://www.jfk-online.com/florer.html

Still, Baker probably parked his bike and could have conferred with the cop on Elm and Houston within 30 seconds after the last shot. Would there have been enough time for Braden to have exited the Dal-Tex building and be pointed out?

Let's say they talked about the direction of the shots and the price of eggs in China.

They decide that the shots came from the TSBD and that the price of eggs in China is 150 yen per dozen. 

Then William Sharper (the elevator operator) runs out panicked to tell them that this man had been in the building without authority.

What happens next? Having decided that the shots came from the TSBD, the cops decide to do no more than take Braden for routine questioning and sending the excess-to-needs officer (Baker) off to the Dal-Tex to make sure there are no other unauthorized persons on the 3rd floor.

Baker goes in and finds or is greeted by the building manager (a title never used by Truly for himself) and is taken to the 3rd floor where his eagle eye spots someone walking away from the stairway. He describes this person as "a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket." 

This is why no one has ever come up with any solid ideas on who this was if not Oswald.

It is also why Baker never recognized Oswald while his affidavit was being taken. 

Here is the FBI report based on Sharper's January 24, 1964 interview with warren de Brueys

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=111185#relPageId=61

By then, they had plenty of time to co-ordinate Sharper's story with Braden's.

But it still makes no sense. If he knew Braden was not allowed inside the building, why did he take him up in the first place? And if he was as cool calm and collected as this report seems to want to indicate, why go to the police? After all, he was an unauthorized person you took into the building, and he had now left, so what is the issue - especially since it all happened at least 10 minutes after the shots rang out and another building had been identified as the source?

Nope. We are not getting the real story here.

greg_parker wrote:

lanceman wrote:I agree Braden’s story is dodgy, to say the least. Amazingly similar to Larry Florer’s story, except Florer went to the 3rd floor of the County Records building.

https://www.jfk-online.com/florer.html

Still, Baker probably parked his bike and could have conferred with the cop on Elm and Houston within 30 seconds after the last shot. Would there have been enough time for Braden to have exited the Dal-Tex building and be pointed out?

Let's say they talked about the direction of the shots and the price of eggs in China.

They decide that the shots came from the TSBD and that the price of eggs in China is 150 yen per dozen. 

Then William Sharper (the elevator operator) runs out panicked to tell them that this man had been in the building without authority.

What happens next? Having decided that the shots came from the TSBD, the cops decide to do no more than take Braden for routine questioning and sending the excess-to-needs officer (Baker) off to the Dal-Tex to make sure there are no other unauthorized persons on the 3rd floor.

Baker goes in and finds or is greeted by the building manager (a title never used by Truly for himself) and is taken to the 3rd floor where his eagle eye spots someone walking away from the stairway. He describes this person as "a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket." 

This is why no one has ever come up with any solid ideas on who this was if not Oswald.

It is also why Baker never recognized Oswald while his affidavit was being taken. 

Here is the FBI report based on Sharper's January 24, 1964 interview with warren de Brueys

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=111185#relPageId=61

By then, they had plenty of time to co-ordinate Sharper's story with Braden's.

But it still makes no sense. If he knew Braden was not allowed inside the building, why did he take him up in the first place? And if he was as cool calm and collected as this report seems to want to indicate, why go to the police? After all, he was an unauthorized person you took into the building, and he had now left, so what is the issue - especially since it all happened at least 10 minutes after the shots rang out and another building had been identified as the source?

Nope. We are not getting the real story here.

Do you think this could have been a diversion to give a shooter in the TSBD more time to escape?

Larry Florer’s statement ends on the curious note that he did not see anyone exit the TSBD.

lanceman wrote:

greg_parker wrote:

lanceman wrote:I agree Braden’s story is dodgy, to say the least. Amazingly similar to Larry Florer’s story, except Florer went to the 3rd floor of the County Records building.

https://www.jfk-online.com/florer.html

Still, Baker probably parked his bike and could have conferred with the cop on Elm and Houston within 30 seconds after the last shot. Would there have been enough time for Braden to have exited the Dal-Tex building and be pointed out?

Let's say they talked about the direction of the shots and the price of eggs in China.

They decide that the shots came from the TSBD and that the price of eggs in China is 150 yen per dozen. 

Then William Sharper (the elevator operator) runs out panicked to tell them that this man had been in the building without authority.

What happens next? Having decided that the shots came from the TSBD, the cops decide to do no more than take Braden for routine questioning and sending the excess-to-needs officer (Baker) off to the Dal-Tex to make sure there are no other unauthorized persons on the 3rd floor.

Baker goes in and finds or is greeted by the building manager (a title never used by Truly for himself) and is taken to the 3rd floor where his eagle eye spots someone walking away from the stairway. He describes this person as "a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket." 

This is why no one has ever come up with any solid ideas on who this was if not Oswald.

It is also why Baker never recognized Oswald while his affidavit was being taken. 

Here is the FBI report based on Sharper's January 24, 1964 interview with warren de Brueys

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=111185#relPageId=61

By then, they had plenty of time to co-ordinate Sharper's story with Braden's.

But it still makes no sense. If he knew Braden was not allowed inside the building, why did he take him up in the first place? And if he was as cool calm and collected as this report seems to want to indicate, why go to the police? After all, he was an unauthorized person you took into the building, and he had now left, so what is the issue - especially since it all happened at least 10 minutes after the shots rang out and another building had been identified as the source?

Nope. We are not getting the real story here.

Do you think this could have been a diversion to give a shooter in the TSBD more time to escape?

Anything's possible.

I know someone who specialiizes in Braden. He has his own ideas on it that fit with Braden's background.

I am taken with the idea that Byrd was involved in planning and that as a Master Magician (see his autobiography), he would be well practiced in the art of deception and misdirection. 

Something that might be useful to that: two similar buildings opposite each other, one that housed the TSBD up until a few months previously, and the other that housed it currently. 

You've also got contractors (ie outsiders) working in 411 Elm during Oct/Nov - some laying flooring and others doing efficiency studies.

Inside the building, you have 3 elevators (and 3 elevator shafts), two stair cases, a conveyor belt from the basement to the 1st floor, a number of loading docks, a dumb waiter, and some loyal employess.

I think any magician worth his salt could work wonders with those elements and two buildings. 

Even pigeons flying off a roof has that abracadabra feel to it.

The whole debate about lifts and anything else that was going on in the TSBD on the day seems to me to be the red herring it was always intended to be by whoever planted the spent cartridges and stashed a rifle in a building where a former 'defector' to the USSR just happened to be working. There could have been an express lift from the first floor to the sixth and it wouldn't have made any difference, because no shots were fired from the TSBD by LHO or anyone else. We're talking  professional assassins, here, and no professional, having scouted out the options, would opt to shoot from a crowded office building, gun jutting at an awkward angle through a window whose ledge is just 12 inches or so from the floor with a tree and a street sign blocking the view. Not when there were at least two other, more suitable locations, ones you could access and get away from cleanly with low risk of being spotted. One was the grassy knoll, the other the roof of the Dal-Tex. The Dal-Tex offered a perfect sight-line along Elm Street and - importantly - discreet access and egress via a fire escape on the eastern side of the next-door building, leading down onto North Record Street. There's a height differential between the two buildings, but we're talking maybe ten to fifteen feet. A rope and grappling hook or fold-up ladder of some kind would have done it. By the time the assassins (I'm guessing a two-man team) had done what they came to do, all eyes would have been on the chaos unfolding in Dealey Plaza not on two guys making their way down a fire escape well away from - and out of sight of - the action. As for the County Records Office roof, I'm not discounting that, given the spent cartridge discovered there years later. I just don't see how it could have been done, given there was no external access to the building. But no question in my mind; professional shooters just would not have risked firing from inside a crowded office building, the TSBD or anywhere else. It just wouldn't have happened.

orangebicycle wrote:The whole debate about lifts and anything else that was going on in the TSBD on the day seems to me to be the red herring it was always intended to be by whoever planted the spent cartridges and stashed a rifle in a building where a former 'defector' to the USSR just happened to be working. There could have been an express lift from the first floor to the sixth and it wouldn't have made any difference, because no shots were fired from the TSBD by LHO or anyone else. We're talking  professional assassins, here, and no professional, having scouted out the options, would opt to shoot from a crowded office building, gun jutting at an awkward angle through a window whose ledge is just 12 inches or so from the floor with a tree and a street sign blocking the view. Not when there were at least two other, more suitable locations, ones you could access and get away from cleanly with low risk of being spotted. One was the grassy knoll, the other the roof of the Dal-Tex. The Dal-Tex offered a perfect sight-line along Elm Street and - importantly - discreet access and egress via a fire escape on the eastern side of the next-door building, leading down onto North Record Street. There's a height differential between the two buildings, but we're talking maybe ten to fifteen feet. A rope and grappling hook or fold-up ladder of some kind would have done it. By the time the assassins (I'm guessing a two-man team) had done what they came to do, all eyes would have been on the chaos unfolding in Dealey Plaza not on two guys making their way down a fire escape well away from - and out of sight of - the action. As for the County Records Office roof, I'm not discounting that, given the spent cartridge discovered there years later. I just don't see how it could have been done, given there was no external access to the building. But no question in my mind; professional shooters just would not have risked firing from inside a crowded office building, the TSBD or anywhere else. It just wouldn't have happened.

The only reservations I have about your idea regarding the TSBD was the sighting of a rifle barrel out the window at the time of the shooting by at least two witnesses (Bob Jackson and Amos Euins) and the curious loss of power in the TSBD at the time of the assassination. With the right people and weapon, the entire assassination could have been conducted from the Dal-Tex without a grassy knoll shooter. If the single bullet theory is true, the Dal-Tex building is the only possible origin.

If the single bullet theory is true, the Dal-Tex building is the only possible origin.


You'd seriously ask that question?

Mick_Purdy wrote:If the single bullet theory is true, the Dal-Tex building is the only possible origin.


You'd seriously ask that question?

Bullets have been known to go through two people. If the demonstration conducted in “Beyond the Magic Bullet” was accurately done, it shows that a bullet can go through two people and emerge in surprisingly good shape.*

But the bullet emerges from JFK’s chest, not throat. Even if the documentary failed to account for the 3 degree slope of Elm Street, the angles still don’t work. Which is why JFK has to be in a position of leaning forward in the Warren Commission and HSAC artistic representations and JFK has a gooseneck in Dale Myers’ computer rendering.

I accept what the Z-film shows and what Connally has always stated, that JFK and Connally were hit by separate bullets. Connally was turned to his right when hit which would account for the elongated entrance wound thought to be attributed to a bullet tumbling as it exited from JFK.

Though the question remains of where did the bullet that exited JFK’s throat go? That question remains even if it came from the front and the throat wound is an entrance. It’s either still in the body, completely fragmented or Lifton’s airborne surgeons are real.

I suppose it’s possible that the bullet entered the back, hit something to cause it to be deflected upwards and exit the throat so that it left the car without hitting anything else. Maybe this explains why the probe of the back wound was relatively shallow but then would the throat wound not be larger and likely be elongated?

* The demonstration in BTMB did not have the JFK/Connally mannequins dressed with shirt and suit coat. If the producers had a camera positioned in front to capture the throat exit, they did not present the footage for obvious reasons.

Lanceman wrote: The only reservations I have about your idea regarding the TSBD was the sighting of a rifle barrel out the window at the time of the shooting by at least two witnesses (Bob Jackson and Amos Euins).



On the face of it, Jackson and Euins do appear to throw a spanner into my thesis. But there are problems with both. Fellow journo Tom Dillard was alongside Jackson when Jackson made his observation:


Mr Ball: And Jackson pointed to the TSBD ...
Mr Dillard: Yes
Mr Ball: And you looked up at the building and you did not see a rifle protruding from any window?
Mr Dillard: I did not see a rifle.


Euins' testimony varied. At one point he saw a 'colored man' with a 'pipe' / rifle. Then it was definitely 'a white man', with a 'bald spot', who fired 'four times'. Did he see puffs of smoke? You'd have thought so, but he doesn't mention any, and he's not asked.

8mm footage of the presidential limousine swinging round the Houston / Elm corner where Euins was standing shows the sixth floor window partially open. But there's no rifle barrel. Could a sniper could have positioned himself in time - we're talking a couple of seconds - to start shooting with any accuracy? Would a pro assassin have allowed himself that level of uncertainty?

James N. Crawford, a clerk for Dallas County, watched from across the street from Euins and thought he saw 'movement' in the sixth floor window. Fair enough, but vague.


Mrs Earle Cabell, riding in the motorcade, heard a loud noise and looked up to 'a group of windows' on the sixth or seventh floors of the TSBD and saw a 'projection' that could have been 'a mechnical object or a person's arm.' Fine. But again, a bit vague.


Bonnie Ray Williams, meanwhile, had been eating lunch on the sixth floor until just ten minutes before things kicked off and saw and heard nothing out of the ordinary. So where was the shooter? Hidden behind boxes hoping Williams would buzz off and leave him alone? Lurking in the shadows, waiting for the same? Great, that pesky kid's gone. Now I'm clear to shoot JFK. Really? I don't buy it. Not from a pro assassin.


And why was the sixth floor was so unpopular? Everyone vacated by 12.20 pm. And what was going on on the 7th floor? Was anyone up there? And if there was a shooter in the TSBD, was there somewhere he could have hidden? One of the mysterious large boxes that had shown up and were too big to hold books? Was the 7th floor searched right away? Did anyone get up on the roof? 


I might be wrong, but I don't recall reading answers to most, if not all, of the above.

orangebicycle wrote:Lanceman wrote: The only reservations I have about your idea regarding the TSBD was the sighting of a rifle barrel out the window at the time of the shooting by at least two witnesses (Bob Jackson and Amos Euins).



On the face of it, Jackson and Euins do appear to throw a spanner into my thesis. But there are problems with both. Fellow journo Tom Dillard was alongside Jackson when Jackson made his observation:


Mr Ball: And Jackson pointed to the TSBD ...
Mr Dillard: Yes
Mr Ball: And you looked up at the building and you did not see a rifle protruding from any window?
Mr Dillard: I did not see a rifle.


Euins' testimony varied. At one point he saw a 'colored man' with a 'pipe' / rifle. Then it was definitely 'a white man', with a 'bald spot', who fired 'four times'. Did he see puffs of smoke? You'd have thought so, but he doesn't mention any, and he's not asked.

8mm footage of the presidential limousine swinging round the Houston / Elm corner where Euins was standing shows the sixth floor window partially open. But there's no rifle barrel. Could a sniper could have positioned himself in time - we're talking a couple of seconds - to start shooting with any accuracy? Would a pro assassin have allowed himself that level of uncertainty?

James N. Crawford, a clerk for Dallas County, watched from across the street from Euins and thought he saw 'movement' in the sixth floor window. Fair enough, but vague.


Mrs Earle Cabell, riding in the motorcade, heard a loud noise and looked up to 'a group of windows' on the sixth or seventh floors of the TSBD and saw a 'projection' that could have been 'a mechnical object or a person's arm.' Fine. But again, a bit vague.


Bonnie Ray Williams, meanwhile, had been eating lunch on the sixth floor until just ten minutes before things kicked off and saw and heard nothing out of the ordinary. So where was the shooter? Hidden behind boxes hoping Williams would buzz off and leave him alone? Lurking in the shadows, waiting for the same? Great, that pesky kid's gone. Now I'm clear to shoot JFK. Really? I don't buy it. Not from a pro assassin.


And why was the sixth floor was so unpopular? Everyone vacated by 12.20 pm. And what was going on on the 7th floor? Was anyone up there? And if there was a shooter in the TSBD, was there somewhere he could have hidden? One of the mysterious large boxes that had shown up and were too big to hold books? Was the 7th floor searched right away? Did anyone get up on the roof? 


I might be wrong, but I don't recall reading answers to most, if not all, of the above.

One of the all time great threads at this forum deals with this material here:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1116-no-shots-fired-from-the-tsbd

orangebicycle wrote:The whole debate about lifts and anything else that was going on in the TSBD on the day seems to me to be the red herring it was always intended to be by whoever planted the spent cartridges and stashed a rifle in a building where a former 'defector' to the USSR just happened to be working. There could have been an express lift from the first floor to the sixth and it wouldn't have made any difference, because no shots were fired from the TSBD by LHO or anyone else. We're talking  professional assassins, here, and no professional, having scouted out the options, would opt to shoot from a crowded office building, gun jutting at an awkward angle through a window whose ledge is just 12 inches or so from the floor with a tree and a street sign blocking the view. Not when there were at least two other, more suitable locations, ones you could access and get away from cleanly with low risk of being spotted... But no question in my mind; professional shooters just would not have risked firing from inside a crowded office building, the TSBD or anywhere else. It just wouldn't have happened.

It's this kind of thinking, which I call "the assassination from a 30,000-foot view," which can potentially reveal a lot about the events of that day. Considering the issue of conspiracy, and the nuts and bolts of how this was pulled off, I'm reminded of Hannibal Lecter quoting Marcus Aurelius to Clarice: "Of each particular thing, ask: What is it, in itself? What is its nature?"

So, what was the assassination?

A crime.

Ok. What was the nature of this crime?

It was complex, extraordinarily so.

What else? What is the most obvious thing about it?

The most obvious thing about the assassination, something no one could ever disagree with, is that it was SUCCESSFUL.

"Successful," in fact, is hardly a word that does it justice. The word I like to use, which seems appropriate, is MARVEL.

The assassination was a MARVEL of a crime. Nothing like this had ever happened before, and it could never happen quite like this again. Consider that the most powerful man in the world was made vulnerable and—in a public place, surrounded by hundreds of unpredictable citizens and throngs of armed law enforcement—thoroughly massacred by finely timed and targeted gunfire. And despite these crowds, other than a nick to the cheek on Tague not a single other person was injured save the one poor bastard who was directly in the line of fire. Kennedy was clearly the target, and from the brutality of the attack it would seem that failure was not permitted to be an option. Despite all these factors, whether you believe this was accomplished by one gunman or twelve, and in spite of all the snapping cameras and rolling film, no person was caught red-handed. That is amazing. A marvel.

And that tells us what?

It tells us that this crime was pulled off by seasoned professionals with nerves of steel, that it was meticulously planned, and that very little was left to chance.

"Seasoned professional" is about the last descriptor I would apply to Lee Harvey Oswald (as far as "nerves of steel," though I do give him a lot of credit for his behavior following his arrest and over the weekend," when it comes to drawing a bead on the President of the United States, seated next to his wife in a moving car, we are talking here about the coolest of all cucumbers). Oswald was a loner, awkward by anyone's account. It's incomprehensible that someone of his ilk could be so nonchalant as to have lunch four floors down only 5 or 10 minutes before positioning himself to commit the crime of the century. A crime for which—since he left behind a mail-order rifle that he had to know would be tied directly to him—he had to have expected to be caught. 

The only alternative is that he is one of the luckiest sons of bitches in history who, after pulling off a feat of marksmanship that must have left even him slapping himself in disbelief, denied his defining accomplishment right up until his dying breath. Oh, and speaking of that ... [insert photo of Oswald in agony as he takes Ruby's bullet] ... Does this look like a lucky SOB to you?

So Oswald would have to be at once the luckiest, most marvelous criminal, utterly chillaxing with lunch before murder and a Coke afterward, and also dumb enough to leave behind what amounted to a signed confession. Unless of course he wanted to be caught ... after which he denied the crime. I guess this must be because of the "nut" part of "lone nut."

And yet the assassination did happen, and it was successful. Supremely successful.

My interest in starting this thread was in trying to figure out how this assassination team, if they even exist, got off the sixth floor and out of the building. Denying Oswald the stairway ala The Girl on the Stairs is good, but if we accept that it means no one else came down that way, either.

So, sticking with the premise of a well-planned crime carried out by professionals who left nothing to chance ... In line with what orangebicycle said above, it's very difficult for me to conceive of a scenario in which assassins actually fired from the TSBD at all. I'm not even sure they would risk being present in the building.

But there are a couple of sticking points:

• There is testimony, I believe from Bonnie Ray Williams and/or one of the two gents with him who were watching the parade from the fifth floor directly under the alleged sniper's nest, of hearing the sounds of gunfire from directly above, and also the actual sounds of the three ejected shells as they struck the floor (wow, I mean, isn't that something?). How credible is this?
  
• There is all the various testimony from witnesses claiming to have seen men in various sixth floor windows, men holding weapons, a maybe rifle barrel actually sticking out of the window. In addition, there is film evidence that purports to show movement in those windows around the time of the assassination. This film/photographic evidence is murky at best, certainly open to interpretation, but it's difficult for me to discount all the witness testimony wholesale. 
  

If we buy that there were "men on the sixth floor," this presents something of a contradiction. If they were up there firing weapons, that defies what we know for sure about the assassination: that it was well-planned, executed by pros who left nothing to chance. If they were not firing—just up there spotting, or coordinating—why would they take that risk? Why would they put themselves in such proximity, at that moment, to the evidence they were planting? In fact, could not this evidence have been planted hours beforehand? What is the point of being up there as shots are fired?

This leads me to two possible conclusions:

1. The entire building was tightly controlled by the plotters, who indeed left nothing to chance, ala the William Weston article about the TSBD. Perhaps Truly or even Shelley were involved. Even under this scenario, there had to be uninvolved witnesses. Pressure and intimidation to forge testimony would have to be involved, and while I can buy that, that's difficult to sustain for 50-60 years or however long these people lived.
   
2. There was simply no one on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination. The rifle and bullets could easily have been planted beforehand. If Oswald was set up with such care beforehand—backyard photos, rifle order, etc—why would conspirators wait to plant the smoking gun at the very moment it was smoking?
   

I'm intrigued by the link posted above to a thread about No Shots Fired From The TSBD. It will take me some time to go through that.

I’ve tried to find pictures/video of how visible an MC rifle firing from the 6th floor of the TSBD during the 1978 acoustics test would be. I remember seeing such video on the evening news that night but no such luck finding it.

The MC wooden stock ends a couple of inches short of the barrel. Hard to see how only a couple of inches of barrel would be seen without seeing the stock or even the left hand steadying it.

Just going through early responder Dep Sheriff Luke Mooney's WC testimony with a view to establishing if and when the 7th floor and roof were searched, and came across a curious comment by the good DS. He's just headed back from the railroad tracks, entered the TSBD at the rear, taken the lift two floors (northwest corner) when the power cut out, so he continued upwards using the northwest staircase:

'I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up.'

Were these 'deputies' ever identified?

Mooney went on up to the seventh, saw nothing, peered into the 'attic', which was too dark to see much, and retreated to the sixth floor pending the arrival of additional lighting. He didn't go up onto the roof. He then returned to the sixth to discover the 'sniper's next' and be present when the rifle was discovered. Nothing new, here. But I am intrigued by the individuals heading down the stairs that Mooney 'believed' were plainclothes deputies.

As to the discovery of the potentially damning evidence on the sixth floor, is it possible someone accessed the TSBD overnight via the fire escape? That might have required 'inside' assistance, someone to leave a window unlocked. Or maybe not if whoever it was was sufficiently skilled in the arts of discreet breaking and entry. Rifle and spent cartridges could then be deposited and boxes arranged into a 'nest' in the north east corner. Person or persons could then quietly exit the way he/they came in.

It's always felt to me that with the TSBD we are looking at a classic 'locked room' mystery. That's one reason we keep coming back to it. And accessing the 'locked room' in the dead of night via the fire escape to plant 'evidence' is a conceivably feasible way it might have been done.

absinthe wrote:

orangebicycle wrote:The whole debate about lifts and anything else that was going on in the TSBD on the day seems to me to be the red herring it was always intended to be by whoever planted the spent cartridges and stashed a rifle in a building where a former 'defector' to the USSR just happened to be working. There could have been an express lift from the first floor to the sixth and it wouldn't have made any difference, because no shots were fired from the TSBD by LHO or anyone else. We're talking  professional assassins, here, and no professional, having scouted out the options, would opt to shoot from a crowded office building, gun jutting at an awkward angle through a window whose ledge is just 12 inches or so from the floor with a tree and a street sign blocking the view. Not when there were at least two other, more suitable locations, ones you could access and get away from cleanly with low risk of being spotted... But no question in my mind; professional shooters just would not have risked firing from inside a crowded office building, the TSBD or anywhere else. It just wouldn't have happened.

It's this kind of thinking, which I call "the assassination from a 30,000-foot view," which can potentially reveal a lot about the events of that day. Considering the issue of conspiracy, and the nuts and bolts of how this was pulled off, I'm reminded of Hannibal Lecter quoting Marcus Aurelius to Clarice: "Of each particular thing, ask: What is it, in itself? What is its nature?"

So, what was the assassination?

A crime.

Ok. What was the nature of this crime?

It was complex, extraordinarily so.

What else? What is the most obvious thing about it?

The most obvious thing about the assassination, something no one could ever disagree with, is that it was SUCCESSFUL.

"Successful," in fact, is hardly a word that does it justice. The word I like to use, which seems appropriate, is MARVEL.

The assassination was a MARVEL of a crime. Nothing like this had ever happened before, and it could never happen quite like this again. Consider that the most powerful man in the world was made vulnerable and—in a public place, surrounded by hundreds of unpredictable citizens and throngs of armed law enforcement—thoroughly massacred by finely timed and targeted gunfire. And despite these crowds, other than a nick to the cheek on Tague not a single other person was injured save the one poor bastard who was directly in the line of fire. Kennedy was clearly the target, and from the brutality of the attack it would seem that failure was not permitted to be an option. Despite all these factors, whether you believe this was accomplished by one gunman or twelve, and in spite of all the snapping cameras and rolling film, no person was caught red-handed. That is amazing. A marvel.

And that tells us what?

It tells us that this crime was pulled off by seasoned professionals with nerves of steel, that it was meticulously planned, and that very little was left to chance.

"Seasoned professional" is about the last descriptor I would apply to Lee Harvey Oswald (as far as "nerves of steel," though I do give him a lot of credit for his behavior following his arrest and over the weekend," when it comes to drawing a bead on the President of the United States, seated next to his wife in a moving car, we are talking here about the coolest of all cucumbers). Oswald was a loner, awkward by anyone's account. It's incomprehensible that someone of his ilk could be so nonchalant as to have lunch four floors down only 5 or 10 minutes before positioning himself to commit the crime of the century. A crime for which—since he left behind a mail-order rifle that he had to know would be tied directly to him—he had to have expected to be caught. 

The only alternative is that he is one of the luckiest sons of bitches in history who, after pulling off a feat of marksmanship that must have left even him slapping himself in disbelief, denied his defining accomplishment right up until his dying breath. Oh, and speaking of that ... [insert photo of Oswald in agony as he takes Ruby's bullet] ... Does this look like a lucky SOB to you?

So Oswald would have to be at once the luckiest, most marvelous criminal, utterly chillaxing with lunch before murder and a Coke afterward, and also dumb enough to leave behind what amounted to a signed confession. Unless of course he wanted to be caught ... after which he denied the crime. I guess this must be because of the "nut" part of "lone nut."

And yet the assassination did happen, and it was successful. Supremely successful.

My interest in starting this thread was in trying to figure out how this assassination team, if they even exist, got off the sixth floor and out of the building. Denying Oswald the stairway ala The Girl on the Stairs is good, but if we accept that it means no one else came down that way, either.

So, sticking with the premise of a well-planned crime carried out by professionals who left nothing to chance ... In line with what orangebicycle said above, it's very difficult for me to conceive of a scenario in which assassins actually fired from the TSBD at all. I'm not even sure they would risk being present in the building.

But there are a couple of sticking points:

• There is testimony, I believe from Bonnie Ray Williams and/or one of the two gents with him who were watching the parade from the fifth floor directly under the alleged sniper's nest, of hearing the sounds of gunfire from directly above, and also the actual sounds of the three ejected shells as they struck the floor (wow, I mean, isn't that something?). How credible is this?
  
• There is all the various testimony from witnesses claiming to have seen men in various sixth floor windows, men holding weapons, a maybe rifle barrel actually sticking out of the window. In addition, there is film evidence that purports to show movement in those windows around the time of the assassination. This film/photographic evidence is murky at best, certainly open to interpretation, but it's difficult for me to discount all the witness testimony wholesale. 
  

If we buy that there were "men on the sixth floor," this presents something of a contradiction. If they were up there firing weapons, that defies what we know for sure about the assassination: that it was well-planned, executed by pros who left nothing to chance. If they were not firing—just up there spotting, or coordinating—why would they take that risk? Why would they put themselves in such proximity, at that moment, to the evidence they were planting? In fact, could not this evidence have been planted hours beforehand? What is the point of being up there as shots are fired?

This leads me to two possible conclusions:

1. The entire building was tightly controlled by the plotters, who indeed left nothing to chance, ala the William Weston article about the TSBD. Perhaps Truly or even Shelley were involved. Even under this scenario, there had to be uninvolved witnesses. Pressure and intimidation to forge testimony would have to be involved, and while I can buy that, that's difficult to sustain for 50-60 years or however long these people lived.
   
2. There was simply no one on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination. The rifle and bullets could easily have been planted beforehand. If Oswald was set up with such care beforehand—backyard photos, rifle order, etc—why would conspirators wait to plant the smoking gun at the very moment it was smoking?
   

I'm intrigued by the link posted above to a thread about No Shots Fired From The TSBD. It will take me some time to go through that.

Do read the "No shots fired" thread it will answer a lot of the questions you've asked.