The Skagit, according to a former crew member

I have contacted a former crew member of the Skagit. I quote his reply:

"Skagit had a fully equipped and staffed sick bay. Treatment for NSU (Non-specific urethritis) and the Clap ( Gonorrhea) only required Penicillin and restriction to the ship (no liberty)."

In order to diagnose these conditions, pathology facilities would have been available.

In fact, even Australian ships during WWII could perform pathology work.

Other Installations Afloat.

The Whang Pu, a river steamer, was commissioned by the navy on 1st October 1943 for conversion to a construction and repair ship. The sick bay afforded space for slinging 12 patients , and had a folding operating table . Accessory services such as those for pathological work and dentistry were provided. Surgeon Lieutenant N. L. Speirs and a Leading S.B.A. and an S.B.A. comprised the medical staff.
http://static.awm.gov.au/images/collection/pdf/RCDIG1070505--1-.pdf

The USS Skagit was 459 ft long. If a piddly little converted steamer for the piddly little Australian Navy could perform pathology work, I am damn sure the USS Skagit included that ability.

One Oswald. 

And Sandy... don't let those morons tell you that the code is for a hospital. It's for a base location. They need it to be a hospital so they can claim that was Lee's location. The medical records simply reflected Lee's home base, regardless of his actual location.

Ho hum. My skagit contact runs this website
http://www.ussskagit.org/index.html

Information from this website moreover, was used in the USMC timeline in my book. That is why I am so confident it is accurate.

And speaking of my book, here is footnote - another nail in this shitty theory.

Supporters of the “Harvey and Lee” theory claim medical records prove that Lee was receiving medical treatment in Atsugi while “Harvey” was on board the Skagit. This is based on the Atsugi NAS code number 3835 on some of the medical forms. However the record for October 6 has the hand-written notation that Oswald had been “doing heavy lifting recently.” Oswald’s duties at Atsugi required no such heavy lifting. That was not the case when the Skagit docked at Kaohsiung where the work was all heavy lifting.

When you go to a doctor, by the reasoning of these people, your address should be noted as the address where the consultation took place.

The USS Skagit was 459 ft long.

The Whang Pu by comparison was 320 ft long. 

The Whang Pu a converted river steamer, had a 12 birth sick bay, a doctor and 2 other medical staff, a pathology lab and could also do dental work. 

The H & L Brains trust however, wants to ignore a former crew member of the Skagit, as well as the common sense proposition that if the Whang Pu had all of this capability, then the Skagit had at least the same.

The new link for the Whang Pu info
https://www.awm.gov.au/images/collection/pdf/RCDIG1070505--1-.pdf

Had forgotten - the same link also has this:

All ships of the Royal Australian Navy, except small craft—motor

launches, those used for shore defence, and the like—possessed sick
bays, either built-in or improvised, ranging in size from the comparatively large ones in cruisers of the Canberra class to the small two-bed type in destroyers and frigates. Generally the space allotted was inadequate, especially when compared with that in ships of the United States Navy.
 
So, just as I had suggested, whatever we had, the US had it and then some.

Is there a doctor on board?

Why, yes there is...

During the Vietnam War, Dr. Rexrode served in the Navy, both aboard the USS Skagit in the Medical Dept, and at North Island Naval Station.
http://www.ussskagit.org/rexrode.html

Jim Hargrove wrote:No, Tracy, you and Parker conveniently leave out of your “timeline” the in-person visit of Lee Oswald to several different buildings at the USMC Atsugi medical complex on Sept. 16, 1958, two days after Harvey Oswald left for Taiwan aboard the Skagit.  You also leave out Lee’s visits on Sept. 20, 22, and 23rd.  Why is that? The Sept. 16 visit is quite well known.  Leaving that inconvenient date off a timeline suggests someone is trying to hide the truth.

Hmmm. Jim's finally (kinda) got  a point.

At the time I wrote the book, I went with the time-line as laid out on the Skagit website - that is that the Skagit set sail on 9/14/58.

However, after that, and in another interminable round of "What About This" from the H & L play-book, the Skagit made it's usual appearance after all previous H & L talking points were clobbered by facts. During that discussion, I found that the HSCA had the date of departure as 9/16/58. I had simply forgotten about it.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=49565&relPageId=94

Yes, the HSCA also concluded that Oswald was not on board, but they can be wrong about that and right about the date of departure. The preponderance of evidence does suggest that he was indeed on board. The only evidence otherwise is a misreading of the records. No surprise there.

On September 14, the unit diary listed the men who were to travel on the Skagit. But that doesn't mean it was the date it did set sail. Indeed, the HSCA record does say they got the 9/16 date from MAGS 11 records, even though they had access to the diaries. This suggests there was other, better evidence.

So...

14/9 Unit diaries record the men to sail on the Skagit.
16/9 Oswald receives treatment for urethral discharge and is cleared to return to normal duties. In this instance, that was on the Skagit which set sail that day, perhaps delayed a day or two by the presence in the area of Typhoon Helen.  Oswald continues being tested and treated on board by the fully-equipped medical team.
19/9  Skagit arrives at Kaohsiung, Taiwan here the men spent two days straight unloading the matting into soggy rice fields. The ammunition meanwhile was loaded onto amphibious craft and sent direct to Quemoy. 

At some point after this, Oswald is returned to Atsugi with sub-unit 1, H&MS-11, MAG-11, Fleet Aircraft Wing which is what the HSCA wrongly believed he had been attached to since the departure of the Skagit.

Oct 6  Oswald is hospitalized with non-venereal acute urethritis and is out again October 13. During the Oct 6 consultation, it is noted Oswald had been doing heavy lifting. This was no doubt at Kaohsiung as noted above.

End of story. As with the school records, there is little, if anything amiss with them. The whole problem revolves around how they are read. 

Oswald was treated on the day of the Skagit's departure and cleared to travel. His condition however, deteriorated after the heavy work undertaken in Kaohsiung and he was returned to Atsugi for treatment at the hospital.

I was in the US Navy during the 1970s and spent three years on a nuclear cruiser (CGN). This ship was 585 ft. long and had a complement of about 500, including four Hospital Corpsman (HM): a Chief (E7), a First Class (E6), a Second Class (E5) and a Third Class (E4) when I was there. There was no medical officer (MD) assigned to the ship, but these guys could handle about anything, including minor emergency surgeries. They were trained to be independent. And we usually operated as a part of a carrier task force, so if somebody really needed serious medical attention beyond the capabilities of the HMs, they would fly him in a helo over to the aircraft carrier nearby which had MDs and full hospital capabilities.

Anecdotal story. A guy I worked with on the CGN thought he got the clap once. He went to sick bay and the HM1 (First Class) saw him. The HM1 ran some tests and told him he just had a urinary infection. So apparently the ship's HMs had the training and capability to screen for venereal disease.

For what it's worth.

Thanks Stan. Yes, Jimbo is doing his darndest to convince himself and others that the US had a 3rd rate navy (run by Cap'n Binghamton, no doubt!)

Even John Pic could do that lab work.

greg parker wrote:Thanks Stan. Yes, Jimbo is doing his darndest to convince himself and others that the US had a 3rd rate navy (run by Cap'n Binghamton, no doubt!)

Even John Pic could do that lab work.

Hargroves version
https://youtu.be/oMIoPFt9XBQ

I would say it's almost certain that the Skagit was due to sail on Sept 14 but got delayed by Super Typhoon Helen and didn't depart until the 16th. If correct, it means Oswald was treated at Atsugi on the 16th, and the Skagit after that until returning on or before Oct 6 at which time he was hospitalized.

 

yphoon Helen[edit]

[th]Duration[/th][th]Peak intensity[/th]

Category 5 super typhoon (SSHWS)

September 9 – September 20

280 km/h (175 mph) (1-min)  920 hPa (mbar)

Typhoon Helen, which formed on September 9, rapidly intensified to a 175-mile-per-hour (282 km/h) super typhoon on the 14th. It moved to the northeast, and steadily weakened until hitting southeastern Japan as a 105-mile-per-hour (169 km/h) typhoon on the 17th. It paralleled the Japanese coastline, and after turning northward it became extratropical on the 19th in the Sea of Okhotsk.^[4] Helen's effects caused 24 fatalities (with 44 missing) and 108 injuries.^[5]

From the Skagit web page:

 In September 1958 we proceeded to Yokosuka, Japan where we loaded personnel of Marine Air Group 3 and filled the holds with steel matting for an airfield and with 5" shells for the Chinese Nationalists defending Quemoy and Matsu, two small islands off the Chinese mainland. We were not supposed to carry ammunition but Quemoy and Matsu were in desperate need and we had the duty. The men were very hesitant to load live shells and store them in the holds. We were really lucky we were not all killed, as we were not qualified to do it, but you do as you are told.

   Departed Sept.14 and ran into Typhoon Helen, very rough seas, and giant waves. Arrived Kaoshung, Formosa on Sept,19 unloaded matting continuously for 48 hours. When I went to the new airfield they were laying matting down in a soggy rice paddy and F-9 Cougars were starting to arrive.  Amazing!  The ammunition was loaded directly onto LSTs and sent to Quemoy. At this time Formosa was a third world country. I hired local workers to help on the ship, three coolies for a day, for the price of one box of C rations (enough to serve one man for one day). Life was cheap!!!    

---------------------------

at the bottom of the page is this:

~ SOURCES ~

RECOLLECTIONS OF THE CREW,

SHIP'S HISTORY,

AND

Dictionary Of American Fighting Ships
--------------------------------------
I went off this in my book for the date of departure. I shouldn't have. Mike (the guy who runs the site) must have used the same single source as everyone else previously: the unit diaries.

It is clear to me now that the ship was supposed to sail on the 14, but didn't. It waited 2 days for calmer seas. But they couldn't risk any further delays because of the urgency of the situation.

Sandy Larsen wrote:Tracy,

Let me get this straight...

Oswald's unit is scheduled to leave Japan on Sept. 14. But due to a typhoon, he doesn't leave till the 16th.

On the 16th, before the ship departs, Oswald visits Dr. Kuehn at the Atsugi Hospital. Dr. Kuehn doesn't do smear tests, so he writes a prescription and has Oswald report to the Mainside lab for the smear test. He gives Oswald a prescription for an antibiotic and instructs him return Monday morning for a repeat smear. (This is all on the medical record.)

Oswald then boards the ship and it departs.

On the 23rd, Oswald again visits Dr. Kuehn... oh wait! Kuehn works at the hospital, not on the ship!


Okay, let's start over...

On Tuesday Sept. 16th, before the ship departs, Oswald visits Dr. Kuehn at sick bay on the ship. Dr. Kuehn doesn't do smear tests, so he writes a prescription and has Oswald report to the Mainside lab for the smear test. He gives an antibiotic to Oswald and instructs him return Monday morning for a repeat smear.

The ship departs.

On Monday Sept. 22nd, Oswald again visits Dr. Kuehn. Dr. Kuehn does the smear test, as well as the culture and sensitivity test.

Hey, wait a minute! Dr. Kuehn doesn't do smear tests! Remember? The last time he saw Oswald, he sent him to the Mainside lab for the smear test. Why would he do that if he were perfectly capable of doing the test onboard the ship? And not only the smear test, but the culture & sensitivity test as well!

The reason this doesn't make any sense is because Oswald wasn't really being treated onboard the ship, as Parker and Parnell would have us believe. He was being treating at the Atsugi Hospital. The medical record makes sense once that fact is accepted.

Sorry Sandy, but the handwriting for all entries on that form are different to the handwriting on the 16th.

And as I have already stated, the entry for the 6th of Oct shows LHO has having been doing "heavy lifting". This was the steel matting that was unloaded at Kaoshung. Your previous contention that I couldn't know if he did any heavy lifting at Atsugi, while true on the surface, is not based on any known reality since he was a radar operator (when not peeling potatoes).

sandy larsen wrote: 19 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:
  On 4/5/2017 at 0:29 PM, Sandy Larsen said:
I still don't know what the source is for the later departure date.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=49565&relPageId=94


Tracy,

Jim has already shown that the information contained in this document is full of demonstrable lies.

Sandy,

Really??? all I recall him doing is saying in so many words that the HSCA was a "liar liar pants on fire."

In all seriousness, I would be interested in seeing a list of the "demonstrable lies" and how those lies were exposed by Hargrove.

The same document also points to a November 4 1959 message from the Chief of Naval Operations saying that Oswald had served in Japan and Taiwan.

Oswald also told Aline Mosby he had served in Taiwan. 


The question being begged is why it was necessary for the Oswald Operation for "Harvey" Oswald to serve for a short period in Taiwan and have have that information circulated internally and externally? A bit risky no, since it would (allegedly) only take a look at the unit diaries to upset the applecart.

From wiki

Skagit General characteristics
Class and type: Tolland-class attack cargo ship
Displacement:
8,635 long tons (8,774 t) light
13,910 long tons (14,133 t) full
Length: 459 ft 2 in (139.95 m)
Beam: 63 ft (19 m)
Draft: 26 ft 4 in (8.03 m)
Propulsion: GE geared turbine drive, single propeller, 6,000 hp (4,474 kW)
Speed: 16.5 knots (30.6 km/h; 19.0 mph)
Range: 17,000 miles
Boats & landing
craft carried:
14 × LCVP
8 × LCM
Capacity: 380,000 ft3 (11.000 m³), 5,275 tons
Complement: 62 officers, 333 men
Armament:
1 × 5"/38 caliber gun
4 × twin 40 mm guns
16 × 20 mm guns

The source used by wiki https://www.history.navy.mil/research/histories/ship-histories/danfs/s/skagit.html

From the Skagit webpage

We pulled out of Diego on a bright and sunny day,
We didn't know where we were going but we were on our way.

Two hot boilers and a half drunk crew, fifteen trucks and a jeep or two,
About 18 knots was the best we could do

http://www.ussskagit.org/SEASTORIESwtv.html
16.5 knots may have been full cruising speed but not flank.

And Hargrove... Sandy discovered jack shit about when the ship set sail. As I have already said, I used the Skagit web page for the time line in my book and posted the link to it in this thread. Sandy "discovered" the link!

Back to the drawing board for you guys.

Meanwhile I'm still waiting for the list of lies  Hargrove allegedly exposed regarding this page 
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=49565&relPageId=94
 
And why it was necessary for the Oswald Operation for "Harvey" Oswald to serve for a short period in Taiwan and have that information circulated internally and externally? A bit risky no, since it would it (allegedly) only take a look at the unit diaries to upset the applecart.

greg parker wrote:From wiki

Skagit General characteristics
Class and type: Tolland-class attack cargo ship
Displacement:
8,635 long tons (8,774 t) light
13,910 long tons (14,133 t) full
Length: 459 ft 2 in (139.95 m)
Beam: 63 ft (19 m)
Draft: 26 ft 4 in (8.03 m)
Propulsion: GE geared turbine drive, single propeller, 6,000 hp (4,474 kW)
Speed: 16.5 knots (30.6 km/h; 19.0 mph)
Range: 17,000 miles
Boats & landing
craft carried:
14 × LCVP
8 × LCM
Capacity: 380,000 ft3 (11.000 m³), 5,275 tons
Complement: 62 officers, 333 men
Armament:
1 × 5"/38 caliber gun
4 × twin 40 mm guns
16 × 20 mm guns

The source used by wiki https://www.history.navy.mil/research/histories/ship-histories/danfs/s/skagit.html

From the Skagit webpage

We pulled out of Diego on a bright and sunny day,
We didn't know where we were going but we were on our way.

Two hot boilers and a half drunk crew, fifteen trucks and a jeep or two,
About 18 knots was the best we could do

http://www.ussskagit.org/SEASTORIESwtv.html
16.5 knots may have been full cruising speed but not flank.

And Hargrove... Sandy discovered jack shit about when the ship set sail. As I have already said, I used the Skagit web page for the time line in my book and posted the link to it in this thread. Sandy "discovered" the link!

Back to the drawing board for you guys.

Meanwhile I'm still waiting for the list of lies  Hargrove allegedly exposed regarding this page 
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=49565&relPageId=94
 
And why it was necessary for the Oswald Operation for "Harvey" Oswald to serve for a short period in Taiwan and have that information circulated internally and externally? A bit risky no, wince it would it (allegedly) only take a look at the unit diaries to upset the applecart.

The speed listed under ship's characteristics is usually "official" max speed. For example, the aircraft carrier I was on has a listed speed of 31.5 knots (260,000 shp, 4 shafts).
 
We seldom ever operated at that speed unless we were en route to some destination such as travelling across the Atlantic or from one ocean to another. Most of the time we operated between 10-20 knots.
 
Of the two nuclear ships I was on, it was possible to go beyond the listed max "balls to the walls" speed, but procedural guidelines didn't allow that. There's always a bit more a US Navy ship can do beyond the published speed limits. They don't publicly reveal what that is.

Given their stated official speed of 16.5 knots, I'd say if the Skagit was going 18 knots, they were pushing it to the limit.

greg parker wrote:Thanks Stan,


No doubt they were pushing it at 18 knots ("It was the best we could do")

The  main point is that this was an urgent mission. Even though it is little known today, it was as big a WWIII potential flashpoint as the Missile Crisis. With a super typhoon forming, they have been forced to wait and see with the weather as long as they could before being forced to "haul ass" on the 16th to make up as much lost time as possible. Yes, it's all guesswork, but makes sense of the known data without going down the 2 Oswald's path - a path rendered impossible by the 2nd autopsy.

Makes sense.
 
In 1979, I was assigned to the USS Nimitz and I was in Naples Italy spending Christmas when we received orders to leave the Mediterranean and head to the Indian Ocean in response to the Iranian hostage crisis. Due to security concerns, we were not allowed to go through the Suez Canal to get to the Indian Ocean that way, so we had to leave the Med through the Straits of Gibraltar and go all the way around Africa. We left Naples on 4 January 1980 and arrived on station in the Gulf of Oman around 22 January 1980. During the transit, we had the Crossing the Line ceremony (Naval tradition when you cross the Equator) so we were allowed to go slow for a better part of a day to observe that, but the rest of the time we were cranking it.  I think we averaged 26-29 knots for the trip of about 11,000 nautical miles. At times we were well over 30 knots (I worked in the nuclear propulsion plants).
 
Point here is that when you have an urgent mission that requires you to get somewhere fast, you pull out the stops and you fly.

greg parker wrote:I have contacted a former crew member of the Skagit. I quote his reply:

"Skagit had a fully equipped and staffed sick bay. Treatment for NSU (Non-specific urethritis) and the Clap ( Gonorrhea) only required Penicillin and restriction to the ship (no liberty)."

In order to diagnose these conditions, pathology facilities would have been available.

In fact, even Australian ships during WWII could perform pathology work.

Other Installations Afloat.

The Whang Pu, a river steamer, was commissioned by the navy on 1st October 1943 for conversion to a construction and repair ship. The sick bay afforded space for slinging 12 patients , and had a folding operating table . Accessory services such as those for pathological work and dentistry were provided. Surgeon Lieutenant N. L. Speirs and a Leading S.B.A. and an S.B.A. comprised the medical staff.
http://static.awm.gov.au/images/collection/pdf/RCDIG1070505--1-.pdf

The USS Skagit was 459 ft long. If a piddly little converted steamer for the piddly little Australian Navy could perform pathology work, I am damn sure the USS Skagit included that ability.

One Oswald. 

And Sandy... don't let those morons tell you that the code is for a hospital. It's for a base location. They need it to be a hospital so they can claim that was Lee's location. The medical records simply reflected Lee's home base, regardless of his actual location.

Bump for Jimbo Baggins who somehow forgetting the Armstrong Skagit claims were thoroughly debunked - by someone who was actually a crew member.

This thread goes to list a number of other issues with Armstrong's claims about this.

Let me add another one that should have been obvious from the get-go. A unit diary is a daily record of unit activities. We now have the doppelganger unit diary theory. One diary that traveled on the Skagit to record "Harvey" and one that stayed at Atsugi to record "Lee".