Jim DiEugenio comments on Harvey and Lee

First topic message reminder :

First of all let me preface this by saying I have a great deal of respect for Jim and his work.
A tireless campaigner for historical truth ; through his books, his articles, his Kennedy's and King website and now with this forthcoming documentary , he has quite rightfully established himself as one of the most articulate and most knowledgeable researchers. Also ,as he has perhaps the highest profile of any researcher, his words carry a certain extra power. With that power of course comes responsibility. A responsibility Jim usually handles well. Carefully eschewing the wildest conspiratorial ravings to focus on what can be proven.
Not only does he possess an almost encyclopedic awareness of the minutiae of the case, he fully understands the cases crucial importance in the grander scheme, as one of THE major turning points. One of the key hinges upon which the tragic drama of the 20th century swung 
Opening the door that led down the dark crooked path towards Tonkin, Watergate, Iran/ Contra, Reaganomics. That path became the murderous moon haunted highway into the 21st.. terrorism and beyond.
The Kennedy assassination is a potent symbol of the control mechanism that allows the few to govern the many.
A mechanism based on fear. Of ourselves and of each other.
Saying that I disagree profoundly with Jim when it comes to H and L. 
The case as Armstrong presented it; namely two unrelated boys reared almost from birth to be involved in some unprecedented , convulted decade long double doppelganger project, but more importantly how the " evidence" is presented and perceived.
Perception is the key. If this case is ever going to be taken seriously again.
Jim knows this better than almost anyone . His essays on the posthumous assassination of Kennedys career and reputation, how hes perceived as some empty headed playboy cavorting with Marilyn Monroe rather than the clear thinking sometimes visionary statesman still make for chilling reading.
The point he made then is the point the so called H and L critics are making now 
To compare Jeremy's comments with Posner was, in my opinion at least, not only unfair but missed the point he was trying to make.
The greatest obstacles to the historical truth of JFKs death ever being acknowledged and accepted aren't the few tepid voices earnestly reciting the Warren Report lies; they come from the other side of the spurious LN/CT divide.
The characters who endeavour to turn history into a theory and make a conspiracy out of the simple truth; JFK was assassinated by more than one gunman.
None of those gunmen were called Lee Harvey Oswald.
The case IS simple . There's been an almost fetishistic desire to complicate things. To come up with increasingly esoteric intricate theories.
This seeming desire culminated in H and L.
Perception is the key. 
How the truth is perceived is almost as important as the truth itself.
I once believed in H and L. Ironically it was by studying the evidence Armstrong himself collected that convinced me he was mistaken
The cultish advocates that flood thread after thread with their propagandising seem unable to accept ANY mistakes
The goal shouldn't be to destroy the Warren Report, even if that means replacing one fable with another. The goal should be the truth. Not in some abstract sense but the truth about what happened that day.
Kudlaty, Schubert DaRouse etc must be held to the same standard as Howard Brennan and Ruth Paine.
For if we don't do it someone else will. Someone whose sole intent is to keep the public facade of the Warren Report lie intact.
Does Jim Hargroves strike you as someone interested in the truth? Or some salesman intent on burying the inherently shoddy nature of his product behind hyperbole, insinuation and shameless distortion.
The H and L gang have adopted the very tactics that made the Warren Report so abhorrent.
The way I see it is wevew come to a crossroads. H and L represents a failed paradigm. To follow the path down to Chez Armstrong is tantamount to accepting defeat. Mired in repetition , Hargroves has become a living testament to those doomed to relive the same past they failed to learn from.
The other path leads in a new direction....

The more I think about it the more the basic central premise invalidates the whole damn theory 
It renders all the other esoterica moot.
Both the beginning- the central premise- and the end- the mastoidectomy- transforms all stuff in the middle, the exotic sauces and dressings to conceal the stringy grisle, into a collection of fascinating irrelevancies.
Maybe Armstrong stumbled across the frayed threads of another plot .I could buy Oswald's identity being used internally or even externally in some counterintelligence operation.
I don't know as much about the internal workings of the CIA as I do about their Soviet counterparts.
But I believe the basic fundamentals were pretty much the same.
There's just no way an operation like this ( assuming Oswald's defection was staged) would have been needlessly complicated. There's already countless ways such an operation could unravel.
Running a decade long immensely complex double doppelganger project and for what?
To infiltrate a low level agent into a Belorussia radio factory?
I'm not an intelligence insider but I've spoken to people who are.
KGB agents, defectors, my mother's mentor was an analyst for British intelligence. She got her first lecturing job covering from him when he went to West Germany to work for Radio Free Europe. He was one of the last people to be expelled from the Soviet Union as a Persona Non Grata.
I remember playing with the children of Vladimir Kuzichin. An ex KGB colonel who defected from Iran via Turkey. My mother helped translate his autobiography.
I grew up amongst this. The language and the culture of the Soviet Union and to a lesser extent the dying gasps of the Cold War.
Harvey and Lee doesn't only make no sense from an Intel standpoint ,it violates most of the basic protocols. I'm absolutely certain someone like John Newman would echo these sentiments. Incidentally the affected manners and overexaggerated primness is all bullshit. I think a few stray fucks here and there is a lot less vulgar than helping to spread a pack of lies about a man's death.
If it existed H and L would be a Top Secret sensitive compartmentalized information project. I'm guessing even the files would have been segregated in the Central Registry. Strictly need to know basis . Yet these characters want us to believe Jack Ruby, Guy Banister, Robert Oswald etc etc etc knew all about both Oswald's.
My guess is Armstrong or one of his underlings read about the illegal programme in a spy book, and duly proceeded to build their putative doppelganger project around that. After all they couldn't very well have little HARVEY and his dumpy fake mom wandering around America aimlessly..
The Soviets utilised this technique quite regularly and by the late 50s they had refined the process, making it quite sophisticated.
Anyone who knows anything, I mean proper information not the garbage regurgitated in conspiracy friendly tomes, about how these operations were conceived and executed knows H and L is nothing more than Z grade fiction.
Don't listen to me. Ask any intelligence professional involved in counterespionage identity manipulation. Explain the proposed scenario- two pre teen boys ( with the same fucking name) traipsing about the continental United States with their mothers, culminating in one boy, purportedly from the Eastern Block being switched for the other to pose as an American marine defector..I promise you that you'll be drowned out by howls of contemptuous laughter.
Oswald was nowhere near a native speaker. He was a young man with a gift for languages, probably chosen because his background fitted the defector template.
Like the case itself the tin foil hat fraternity seek to complicate Oswald's life beyond all recognition.
Fezzo prattling on about 2220 Thomas place and where John Pic went to Elementary school as if they're the key to unlocking some cosmic riddle 
The conspiratocracy specialise in creating mysteries where none exist; while ignoring the REAL mysteries that don't meld with their preferred narrative.
H and L astutely employs various psy ops techniques. Namely repetition and targeting and manipulating the mindset of your demographic.
All Baggins has to do is hint at FBI malfeasance or cloak and dagger shenanigans and he's got his target audience hooked 
It's a subtle psychological technique. Exploiting their gullibility while making them believe the exact opposite.
As if their seeing through the devious machinations of the" Man"..and gazing upon the unvarnished truth 
Look at Fezzos obsession with COINTELPRO. I really believe, bless his little cotton fez, that he genuinely thinks the NSA has a satellite permanently fixed on His Fezzness.
Its no accident the majority of H and L devotees have , to some degree or another, serious psychological issues.
H and L operates EXACTLY like a cult. They cynically exploit these issues. Fezzo has at the very least SERIOUS fucking anger issues, Sandy comes across as a borderline simpleton and Butler, Butler? That they would stoop to use his " analysis" says it all. 
It's an act of sheer contempt.
In my opening post I was trying to be diplomatic. If Jim DiE really cared about the assassination it's his duty to speak out against H and L. It pains me to say this as I used to really respect him but more and more hes starting to sound like a fully fledged member of the Conspiratocracy.
Comfortable with his elevated position in the hierarchy, he doesn't want to threaten the cosy status quo.
That's why the likes of Butler and Swinging Sandy are welcomed. They prove no threat . They add a little colour. Harmless buffoons. The court jester's of the Conspiratocracy. But are they really harmless? If you were a young kid with an enquiring mind and an interest in the assassination and you logged on to a self professed " Education Forum" and read Butler raving on or Sandy's juvenile dribble....I bet you a titanium reinforced tin foil hat you'd be over on McAdams forum in no time...
When I read Jim quoting Larsen in an argument my heart sank ..
The Education Forum is turning into the digital equivalent of a debating club for ageing Baby Boomers.
Discussing their various ailments, giggling at Caddys increasing bizarre excretions, tut tutting at the pretend fascist ( I can almost hear his replica Knights Cross jangling as he types) or ruminating, misty eyed about the " Good Old Days"
Apart from RC-D, Mark, Jeremy, Larry H, Cliff V( when hes not on one of his Out the Fascists kicks. Cliff, fascism is a very specific political ideology. Using it as an umbrella term and for shock effect is beneath you) and the troll punk pensioner the place is a fucking wasteland.
God's Waiting Room, replete with a broken lava lamp and a faded Hendrix poster.
The assassination is now just a marketing opportunity. Jeffries and co dont give a fuck about the " truth"..their only " truth" is the truth that sells..
Cue black and white photo of Dealey Plaza, complete with suitably nostalgic soundtrack..the heavenly sigh of a pedal steel guitar accompanies the limo as it turns into Elm Street.
William Faulkner once wrote for every Southern boy it's always the morning of the 3rd July 1863..just before Pickett's Charge .
For the conspiratocracy it's always 12.31 on Nov 1963... their minds and critical faculties ossified and frozen in time..

Well said as supported by your well informed background Alex.  These conspiratocracy alley cats hack up their H&L hairballs on the back steps of legitimate analysis, or hide behind agnostic trash cans. It's out of control to the detriment of uncovering the conspiracy.

The thing is Jake I was a believer!!
I wanted to be told what I wanted to hear " Yes, H and L is perfectly possible" Initially I responded like Fezzo. Stubborn and truculent, refusing to accept what deep down I knew to be true. What's the point deluding yourself? 
I really believe self delusion is the greatest intellectual sin of all. For it's the sin from which all other sins flow.
I'm not an  Intel insider. I've always tried to err on the side of caution too. Ive tried to be perfectly clear.   I started out wanting  H and L to be true. Ashamed as I am to admit it now. So I can totally understand why people become so enamoured with the theory.
From a distance it looks beguiling. All the parts seem to slip seamlessly into place.
But up close it's painted rust. A rickety contraption cellotaped together .
For me it's the central premise. It's counterintuitive.
Why would you use this Eastern European to pose as an American?
And the whole " Oswald was a native speaker" too. ItsI patently false 
I firmly believe it's another example of Armstrong's sleight of hand.
Focusing on his Russian. It's his spoken English thats the giveaway.
Jim DiEs spent more than 30 years of his life researching the case. The anthology he edited was my first real introduction to the case. A lot of his work still stands up but H and L threatens to undo a lot of that 
If H and L became the accepted narrative of the assassination would that really be a step forward?
Oswald would still be in that window and the real facts would still be buried under a tissue of lies.
To be blunt I think Jim DiEs generation of researchers, and the methods they employed failed . A catastrophic failure that left us further adrift than ever. The space between us and " the truth" is now practically a no man's land,  crisscrossed with rabbit holes the size of trenches and barbed wire twists of self delusion.
A conspiratocracy exists. To them assassination research has devolved into a comfy sinecure. Conference slots, radio appearances and book tours.
Don Jeffries embodies the utter hypocrisy of it all.
Making a living off the back of lies disguised as truth.
Profiting from honest good hearted folk who instinctively know something's badly wrong.
It's a false dichotomy Jake. You guys here know that better than I do.
H and Ls a big part of that dichotomy. A dead end disguised as truth.
The best way to guarantee another 50 years of futile debate over bullet trajectories and Beverley Oliver's shoes 
Fuck 'em all 
I really sincerely believe Prayerman and the folk here on this forum represent the last best chance.
Apart from RC-D and perhaps one of two others the intellectual gulf is startling.
Could I be wrong?
Of course.
But a last best chance is far better than no chance at all.
Slipping away into the reassuring embrace of the past..

Vinny wrote:

Jim waxing lyrical about the "mystery of San Saba".

The only mystery is how anyone fell for this.

Armstrong interviewed two former neighbors in the 1990s. What he claims they said is at odds with what they told the FBI in 1963 and also what John Pic testified to in 1964.

It is the usual MO. Steer aging witnesses to the "testimony" you want to hear and never ever mention anything about what they originally said.

The only thing recalled in 1963 that macthes the H & L template is that they recalled the year Marguerite moved in as 1947 or prior. Seems they were conflating Marguerite's previous 1945 address on Granbury with her 1948 address on San Saba. 

But it is on who lived with her that Armstrong has managed to bend their memories. He has them saying "Lee", whereas in 1963, both witnesses said all three kids were living there. Armstrong doesn't mention that discrepancy because it gets in the way of H & L scripture that the 3 boys were living with the real Marguerite on 8th Ave, Fort Worth at the same time.

The only way to see this the way Jim does is through the mystical H & L glasses - apparently handed out to all new cult members. A sane person after the facts of course, would do a little digging for themselves before signing on.

Gee, I wonder which parts of the book Jim D. disagrees with and why. He still can't seem to spit out his thoughts on the matter.

It appears Jim D. soft sells his H and L criticisms out of a concern for discrediting the good stuff in the book. Collateral damage, if you will. If course, the converse is true and also what appears to be the case: The H and L ridiculousness is embedded in "good research", lending it credibility that it doesn't deserve. Makes me wonder if that is the purpose behind the voluminous profile of that tome. H and L would never have stood on it's own. It needed all the rest to give it the trappings of legitimacy.

greg_parker wrote:I know why some are shunned and shut out - and not just from some forums. A perfect example was the the letter signed by the 50 authors/researchers/actors to have the case reopened. Some of the names on it were so preposterous, words fail. Doug Caddy? FFS. But he gets in because he is part of the Conspiriocracy - or at the very least, is no threat to it. He believes aliens walk among us and that secret was why JFK was killed? No problem! Jim Marrs wrote books on UFOs. Welcome aboard Doug. But not one person - not a single person here was asked to be a part of that. The one place dedicated to having the case reopened. The one place where cooperative research is not only done but posted for all.  And not just hack research - the JFK version of yellow journalism - but real groundbreaking material that is moving closer to an ultimate resolution of this case. No. This is not sour grapes. Ed, Bart, Stan, Lee - any of them would have been worthy additions. 

The way I see it is wevew come to a crossroads. H and L represents a failed paradigm. To follow the path down to Chez Armstrong is tantamount to accepting defeat. Mired in repetition , Hargroves has become a living testament to those doomed to relive the same past they failed to learn from.
Just proving beyond all argument that Oswald was innocent will in itself be a major breakthrough. And yes, I can hear the screams from the peanut gallery now. We don't need to waste time on that. We know he is didn't do it! My answer is that what we "know", has no effect on anything. Having indisputable proof does. It changes the history books and is a permanent reminder to America and to Congress that the case is NOT closed. 

So fuck all tinfoil-hat prosecutors of z grade theories.

Greg this is so wonderfully stated my man. Thank you for articulating this. One of the great pains of that signing was an absolute lack of any signatures from any of the researchers that are active here at ROKC....I don’t understand that. I couldn’t have expressed what you have better myself.

"i don't have a dog in this fight, but...."
Fuck you.
Review the book you shithouse.

jim di wrote:You are going to tell me that Oswald became fluent in Russian by talking to his tour guides for something like 13 months?

Because that is how well Oswald spoke Russian according to what Titovets told me when I interviewed him in 2014.

According to Armstrong and the crack'd squad, Oswald was supposed to be hiding his Russian speaking ability from the Soviets. Thanks for exposing that bit of nonsense. 

By the time he met Titovets, he had been deemed to have learned the language and no longer needed after work tuition at the factory. This tuition had been for about an hour and a half on three to four days a week over a month (The Interloper: Lee Harvey Oswald Inside the Soviet Union). 

The tuition equaled about 24 hours worth. That combined with previous self-tuition using flash cards, dictionaries and Russian language papers, plus any one-on-one tuition when he was alleged to be in the brig (for an episode that was highly unlikely according to vets I have spoken to about it) and on top of that, exposure to native speakers in Moscow, the Minsk Factory, the hunting club and social events, and it is no surprise that he was deemed to no longer need tuition and that he was doing well with it by the time he met Titovits.

It's a fair point Steely made.

Jim hasn't got a dog in the fight only because he has the dog on a tight reign. If he wants to tie the dog up for a bit, he could settle doubts by writing an honest review of the book. The size of it should not be an excuse as he has already reviewed a book at least as long or longer. 

Or I could review it. I have no problem leaving bias aside and letting facts speak for themselves - as they would, not just on H & L - the sole basis for the book, thus it's name, but also on the sidebars touched on like the "getaway", the weapons purchases and the MC fiasco.

If you want your canine to become involved in the dispute make a reply citing Lamar Waldron, author of an equally huge stool. See if he will accept the source.

He has no problem criticizing researchers who promote bogus or ridiculous theories like Janney, Waldron, Lifton, Caufield etc. He will point out how their theories are actually quite harmful to the cause. Yet when it comes to his buddy Armstrong he has a major blind-spot.

Vinny wrote:He has no problem criticizing researchers who promote bogus or ridiculous theories like Janney, Waldron, Lifton, Caufield etc. He will point out how their theories are actually quite harmful to the cause. Yet when it comes to his buddy Armstrong he has a major blind-spot.

Because he's a profiteering charlatan.

https://books.google.com/books?id=hP1DCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=destiny+betrayed+stripling&source=bl&ots=c0ll0upYLa&sig=ACfU3U0M3hnyLfRnslS52uPziPNOec6iQw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiCvvSmhKXrAhVH-qwKHU3xA_UQ6AEwAHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=destiny betrayed stripling&f=false

I don't know what Jim DiE thinks he's doing writing for garrison, the self styled " journal of deep politics" 
Sharing a magazine with the holocaust denying scumbag Griffin, not only that but the publisher apparently has links with the American Free Press. He was a history teacher for Armstrongs sake. Does he not understand the damage he does associating with ahistorical degenerates like Griffin? As long as serious historical study into the assassination can be associated with holocaust deniers, moon landing hoaxers and assorted troofers we're all doomed.
Every time I read Jim quoting someone like Fezzo or Larsen I cringe inwardly
Also I notice garrison is recruiting their writers from the very top echelon of " alternative" writers and thinkers( ha ha ha)....none other than the venerable Ron Bulman, arguably one of the most vapid unchallenging members of Lord Gordos elite stable of warrior poets, has been welcomed aboard.
The learned master Bulman will be blessing the readers with his profound insights on Jack Ruby. We should invent Conspiracy Bingo ..how many tin foil hat canards can be crammed into one article.
No doubt that fearless independent minded populist Donnie Jeffries will be creaming in his black leather SS briefs at the thought of Griffin contributing to an American Free  Press published " deep politics journal"
Why stop at Bulman?
Why not get Sandy the Swinging Forensic Dentist to discuss his scientific research.? Or Jim Harwood and our chum from Sanibel can contribute a piece on the insidious machinations of Queen Elizabeth's handpicked cabal of British troll punks...
Swinging Sandy can tell us all about how the CIA faked LEE Oswald's dental records...then he can put on his Swinging Bankers bowler hat and tell us how he confused a disbursement postal order for an ordinary one.
Why not go the whole hog( no not like THAT Sandy) and get Fezzo to publish his H and L spreadsheet...with comments by the Demothsenes of doppelganging John Butler?..
By Armstrong the Military Industrial Congressional Complex must be shaking in their boots..
Not since the halycon days of Scooby and Scrappy Doo has the American Secret Government felt so threatened...

alex from an earlier post wrote:Maybe Armstrong stumbled across the frayed threads of another plot

Have long thought that this is what trips up many an intrepid deep political author. In their zeal, they wave all the frayed threads together under the JFK assassination flag.

Locc wrote:

Vinny wrote:He has no problem criticizing researchers who promote bogus or ridiculous theories like Janney, Waldron, Lifton, Caufield etc. He will point out how their theories are actually quite harmful to the cause. Yet when it comes to his buddy Armstrong he has a major blind-spot.

Because he's a profiteering charlatan.

https://books.google.com/books?id=hP1DCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=destiny+betrayed+stripling&source=bl&ots=c0ll0upYLa&sig=ACfU3U0M3hnyLfRnslS52uPziPNOec6iQw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiCvvSmhKXrAhVH-qwKHU3xA_UQ6AEwAHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=destiny betrayed stripling&f=false

Thanks Mark. He just quotes Armstrong about Stripling and takes it at face value. He did not bother to check for accuracy or look for alternative explanations. He quotes it as if it was a proven fact. Now it might be quite difficult for him to back off from it without losing face.

Vinny wrote:

Locc wrote:

Vinny wrote:He has no problem criticizing researchers who promote bogus or ridiculous theories like Janney, Waldron, Lifton, Caufield etc. He will point out how their theories are actually quite harmful to the cause. Yet when it comes to his buddy Armstrong he has a major blind-spot.

Because he's a profiteering charlatan.

https://books.google.com/books?id=hP1DCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=destiny+betrayed+stripling&source=bl&ots=c0ll0upYLa&sig=ACfU3U0M3hnyLfRnslS52uPziPNOec6iQw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiCvvSmhKXrAhVH-qwKHU3xA_UQ6AEwAHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=destiny betrayed stripling&f=false

Thanks Mark. He just quotes Armstrong about Stripling and takes it at face value. He did not bother to check for accuracy or look for alternative explanations. He quotes it as if it was a proven fact. Now it might be quite difficult for him to back off from it without losing face.

That's right Vinny, and yet he attempts to assert he is 'agnostic' on H&L. It's not agnostic if you say you believe in it or if you say you don't believe in it. Once committed either way, agnostic sails with the tide.

A blast from the past.

So basically, never mind the fact that I'm feeding you shit, just pay attention to how nice and intricately detailed the plate is.

I know Len Osanic doesn't really have any skin in the game as he is just the host of his podcast, but he gives Armstrong a lot of space.

Last night's episode Black Op Radio Episode 1005

Locc wrote:So basically, never mind the fact that I'm feeding you shit, just pay attention to how nice and intricately detailed the plate is.

That is how his work is presented by the Crack'd Squad.  But all hell breaks loose when you lift that piece of unidentifiable gristle to see what lurks underneath. 

Armstrong took a silk purse (that treasure trove of research he obtained from NARA) and turned it into a sow's ear. 

Neat trick.