Are You a Naysayer?

ARE YOU A NAYSAYER?
Thanks to Armstrong Almighty and His Right Hand Muppet, Jimbo Baggins, we now have a handy guide so you can self-assess if you need a H & L Intervention.

preamble
There are some people who believe the bus ride never happened, and that the entire story of the bus ride was fabricated. In order to reach their conclusions these people focus attention on witnesses whose memories are less than perfect, and then continuously criticize these people in an attempt to destroy their credibility. These people often misread witness statements and testimony. They criticize documents without thoroughly understanding what they are reading. Their cited "sources" are often not sources at all and, in some cases, are non-existent. They (naysayers) do this in an attempt to develop and promote their own preconceived ideas and theories. However, when their work is closely scrutinized, it becomes apparent that many of these naysayers have not done their homework. For example:

• Naysayers criticize bus driver Cecil McWatters because he could not positively identify (HARVEY) Oswald as a passenger on his bus. Naysayers ignore McWatters' description of this one passenger and his clothing—a man who rode in the middle of the bus for only 4 minutes. These naysayers forget there were perhaps dozens of bus passengers on several of McWatters' bus runs on 11/22/63, yet they endlessly criticize him for not remembering details about this one passenger.
  

If you do not want to be saddled with the naysayer label, you need to accept that McWatters inability to connect the passenger with Oswald via recalled details is no indication that he is not a reliable witness to Oswald being on the bus. You also need to wipe from the memory that McWatters actually thought he was there to ID the only OTHER male passenger - the teen who had laughed at Kennedy's death. One Milton Jones.

Mr. BALL - Were you under the impression that this man that you saw in the lineup and whom you pointed out to the police, was the teenage boy who had been grinning?
Mr. McWATTERS - I was, yes, sir; I was under the impression--

The OTHER man was not Oswald. He had to BECOME Oswald after Jones - the person who caused the bus to come under notice in the first place - was ruled out. 

• Naysayers criticize the testimony and memory of Milton Jones, who remembered Oswald as a passenger and remembered his light blue jacket and grey pants. Naysayers conveniently forget that Oswald sat behind Jones, and only saw Oswald for a few seconds when he boarded and got off McWatters' bus.
  

Milton did not give "testimony". He was interviewed by the FBI. He told the FBI that he "could not positively identify him as being identical to Oswald. He said he was inclined to think it was Oswald only because the bus driver [later] told him it was. The driver (McWatters) only said it was Oswald because the police told him that after ruling out Jones.

Jones description of the other man was 30 - 35 years old, 5' 11" (which would make him LEE not HARVEY!), 150 pounds, medium build, light blue jacket, khaki trousers. 

Oswald was NOT wearing a light blue jacket. He was NOT over 30 years of age. He was NOT of medium build. He was NOT 150 pounds. 
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62326&search="roy_jones"#relPageId=47&tab=page

More signs of potential naysaying at the 13 Inch Head Forum. If you believe you are a Naysayer, this is your lucky day.

Jimbo Baggins is offering discounts on new memberships to NA. 

There are no 12 steps to recovery. There is only 6 flights of stairs to freedom  and your choice of a Shoppers Bus out of Dodge or a lift in a Rambler Station wagon driven by your Irving landlady cleverly disguised in blackface. 

You have to be at least 5' 11" and bull-necked for the second option according to DISS-U (the Doppelganger Industrial Safety Standards Union)

Naysayers often wonder why Baggins neglects to mention Oswald is supposed to have left the bus wearing a buttonless shirt with a tear in the elbow...and almost immediately enters a taxi wearing two jackets.
I'll join a long list of those awaiting an answer to a question put to Baggins.

steely_dan wrote:Naysayers often wonder why Baggins neglects to mention Oswald is supposed to have left the bus wearing a buttonless shirt with a tear in the elbow...and almost immediately enters a taxi wearing two jackets.
I'll join a long list of those awaiting an answer to a question put to Baggins.

Not since Brian's last tantrum have I read a bigger pile of shit than what Baggins just deposited. 

They want to know how anyone "concocted" the bus getaway story?

It ain't fake doppelganger science.

1. Oswald told them he caught connecting buses straight to the theatre. (per Thomas Kelley report). So they knew a bus was involved.

2. Mary or son Porter phoned the cops to tell them that Mary had been on a bus and a young man had laughed like a maniac when news of the assassination was announced. Mary was sure that this person had to be the assassin. Nothing was said about this person being a former boarder.

3. Police, knowing from Oswald himself that he had ridden a bus, assumed the person Mary referred to had to be Oswald.

4. On that basis, they stopped McWatters bus, took him to a line-up and took a statement. As a result of this, they knew McWatters could not ID Oswald and that the person Mary referred to was someone else.

5. Determined to put him on this bus, the cops got Mary in the next day to take her statement. They needed a strong witness and they knew it was too risky to take Mary to a line-up. Solution. Mary has to say she knows Oswald as being a former boarder, so that now appears in her statement and does away with the need for a line-up. Not hard to get Mary on board. The police only had to tell her that they knew Oswald was guilty but they needed help proving it. They may have also hinted that she could make money from saying Oswald had been her boarder. Which indeed she did. Selling a bunch of crap allegedly belonging to Oswald while Porter sold a calendar page which was supposed to be the record of his stay.

6. Next step. Show Mary the shirt that Oswald wore and the bags he used, help her take notes to read at the Commission Hearings and supply her with a lawyer delightfully named Melody Douthit whose son/nephew/cousin/whoknowswitchbecausehewon'ttalkaboutit runs a facebook group on Tippit. 

Oswald was NOT on that bus.Oswald did NOT get a ride in a Rambler. That person may have been the real assassin, but more likely just another in the conga-line of generic young white males accused of being an Oswald impersonator. How dare they all look so generic!

Kelley gives us the facts of the matter.

Couldn't agree more about Baggins JA rant. It's the ultimate Doyleism...minus the unintended humour.

A couple of years ago (on another part of the forum) we had a discussion regarding LHO's journey to the TT. I agree that the Rambler passenger was most likely a generic male leaving the scene in a manner that looked far more suspicious than it actually was. Mcwatter's bus (and the Bledsoe id) followed by Whaley's cab version is the stuff that only a......sperm doner...would believe.
My sticking point with a trip by another bus is....why not produce the actual driver and one or two passengers, who would be far more plausible, than what was offered in place of them?
I guess that's why i still favour BWF dropping him off.

Picture the scene if you will:
Dimly lit room ;boarded windows , thin mutter of muted candlelight..
A feeling of unease hanging in the air...
Like John Butler's naked body dangling out of the 6th floor window...after his infamous failed reenactment of the " Maths Rules" thread.

Apparently David Joseph's calculations were wrong;

A nude geriatric and a pole vault can't move two times faster than a Mannlicher Carcano bullet


Rows of thin, ashen faced figures are perched on hard plastic seats, nervously fingering the plastic fezzes they grip.

One young woman in a rumpled purple shell suit top is curled up in her chair, rocking back and forth she gazes hatefully at the fez, twitching uncontrollably as she mutters hoarsely..
" For every HARVEY there must be a LEE"..

A young man with wild eyes and disheveled hair slowly stands up.

A tense hush descends..

He stands silently for a couple of seconds, fumbling awkwardly with the plastic fez..before  finally summoning up the courage..

With visible effort he eventually blurts out .
" Hi my name is Alex"

" Hi Alex"

Another pause .. almost as pregnant as Juddufki that night in August 1966, when she woke up in the trash can outside the dressing room at Candlestick Park, San Francisco... with John Lennon's voice still ringing in her ears...
" Ta for the knee trembler Juddufki love, I won't forget to dedicate the concert to you..and oh yeh I'll tell Macca about those ideas...I don't know about Dr Pepper and the Reilys Coffee Club Band but "Hey Judy , don't make it bad, just tell ol' Kris 'bout all the patsys you had" might be a hit"

" " I'm Alex....and I'm a.....naysayer"

Glances around, a look of sheer terror etched into his features ..

" Go on Alex" a shadowy figure at the back of the room calls out
" Fezzo and the flying fez squadron can't harm you now.."

" Fezzo and the flying fez squadron" 
A horrified whisper spreads round the room...

" That's nothing" a small emaciated woman croaks, stringy grey hair falling limply across her forehead..

" Have you ever heard of Swinging Sandy and the flying pigs?"

Screams fill the room...
" Swinging Sandy?" Someone moans" " I heard rumours...they turn you into human money orders or...or ." 
He starts sobbing uncontrollably..

" They turned my best friend into a bag of pork scratchings for denying the miracle of San Saba"

The room fills with the chaotic babble of frightened voices..

" Turned into Sweet and Sour pork and sent to Don Jeffries house for denying the vision of William Timmer!"

" Forced to trim Jimbo Baggins goatee for unsloping LEEs shoulders!!"

" Had ALL Fezzos sacred Evidence IS the Conspiracy essays tattooed on my balls with molten lead for blaspheming against Jack White"

" Look at me" a hunched mid shapen figure groans " I was used as a guinea pig by John Butler...crazed by years of " recreational" photo alteration he went mad and decided to create a whole army of us.. I'm the only survivor..the only living half man half Mary Moorman...you try pissing out of the heel of a white stiletto!!"

Anguished cries:
" We're all doomed!! There can be no HARVEY without LEE...no matter how far we run the cult will always catch up with us.."

" No!" the shadowy figure declares
" The Great Blasphemer and his ROKC troll army will be here soon!! I heard Jeremy B and his parachute brigade have made it to Stripling High!!"
" And the SAS( Steely and Stan) had captured Beauregard...plus Mark Stevens and that Charles Dunne chap have actually infiltrated the main compound..let Alex finish... don't be afraid Alex we're all naysayers here...we've all been deprogrammed...a decade long double doppelganger project to infiltrate a non native speaking Eastern European refugee doppelganger posing as a good ole boy American marine defector? A fake mastoidectomy operation carried out by an unknown surgeon on a phantasmal polyglot Hungarian critter in a hospital that didn't even exist at the time!!! A stubborn refusal to recognise simple human frailties preferring to construct some omniscient omnipotent conspiratorial entity...you'd have to be brainwashed to believe that shite.... and we WERE brothers and sisters...we were brainwashed by a sleek hustler, his skilful deployment of psy ops techniques and propaganda ...and by our own preconceptions too ...we wanted to believe in conspiracies . like we believed in Santa Claus...and by Armstrong they gave us a conspiracy...."

" Who are you?" The half man half Mary Moorman rasps, the effort causing great agonised drools to drip down onto the claw like appendage dangling out of the 3rd sleeve of his/here purple shell suit..

" I'm...I'm" 
The figure pauses dramatically... you could hear the pin from a Mauser drop..
before he shuffles into the flickering light of the candles.. revealing a hideous amphibian like countenance..phelgm green skin clinging to scaly protoberances... slimy lizard tongue lolling out... like Jimbo Baggins decorseted gut..vacant yellow eyes, strangely phallic growth in centre of heavily ridged forehead...greasy stringy faecal brown hair, combed over to hide the bald spot thats the size of the XXXX large prophylactic fez Fezzo always buys when he goes doppelganging down Sanibel way...
" I'm an independent minded populist who doesn't think Hitler was a good guy, someone who likes counting sheeple at night to help Amerikkka go to sleep .. I'm Donnie Jeffries and you lone nuts are all busted"

Silence

" I said you're all busted!!"

Still silence

" BUSTED!!!....BUSSSSTTTTEEEDDD...listen Jimbo Baggins promised he'd have the crack Skagit brigade waiting outside...with teargas, riot shields and big leather truncheons...BUUUSSSSTTTTEEEDDD..this is really embarrassing...I was to shout " Busted" and Captain Norwood was to come charging in...truncheon first ."

" Sorry cobber" a loudspeakered voice boards ..a loudspeakered voice with a pronounced Australian accent...
" The Skagit brigade ain't coming mate..i've  got a few friends here that would like to get their copies of Hidden History autographed Don, me old independent minded populist..."

Donnie suddenly goes very white ..as white as his favourite hood, as white as the America he dreams of ..

" Oh crumbs" Donnie whimpers as the crowd move towards him ..
" Free copies of my new book " Third Reich solutions for America's Third World economy".."
The crowd moves closer ..
" Ok what about my Willis Carto autographed Mein Kampf? My collection of Waffen SS action figures.?....."

At the very last minute Donnie does what Donnie does best...

Run the fuck away... leaving a yellow streak behind him..

FIN

No naysayers, independent minded populists or doppelgangers were harmed

Do you feel that the incident that Craig claimed really happened? That he identified Oswald in Fritz's office as having got into the Rambler?

Honest answer Vinny, I just don't know.

The whole bus/ taxi ride story has been utterly discredited.
Bledsoe and Whaley were obviously coached into telling the tale the authorities wanted the world to hear.

If Oswald travelled on another bus then why not simply produce the other driver?
Maybe because his route took him past a certain cinema?
Maybe because this other driver's evidence didn't fit in with the emerging narrative?
So much about this case doesn't make sense. So much seems counter intuitive and downright fanciful.

Roger Craig is another one for the " I don't know" file

I believed him for a long time. But if the guy in the photo over on the 13 Inch Head forum was the " Oswald" he saw then Greg's right; just another generic white male at the wrong place at the wrong time.

That's another thing about this case, the evolution of certain witnesses stories.
When the " Warren Report Critical Movement" started gaining ground their stories began growing arms and legs.

What they said in the late 60s/70s/ 80s and beyond ended up being light years away from what they originally said.

I understand witnesses were threatened, coerced and some had their testimonies changed, Dallas in 1963 was not a city that tolerated dissention not did the social/ political climate tolerate dissenters who spoke out.
There was much less cynicism back then too, especially if you were white and middle class.

It took a lot of guts to speak out.

I get all that

Oswald was definitely driven directly to the Texas Theatre .by who and utilising what mode of transportation? 
I simply don't know

No doubt someone has researched the Dallas city bus routes circa 1963.
If there was a service that could have taken him from the TSBD( or close by) to the Texas Theatre then that might well be the solution.
Greg may well be right about Kelley.

If not he was chauffeured by party or parties unknown...in a Nash Rambler or by a certain workmate of his acquaintance...?

Something else BWF could clear up before he shuffles off his mortal coil and ascends to the Great Depository in the Sky .

Also I agree with RC-D about the Reed photographs..
Obviously he wasn't freelancing, doorstepping the puny Hungarian who was about to become the world's most doppelgangery doppelganger...

I get the impression the situation on the ground was fluid...with nothing and no one set in stone.
Perhaps Reed was tasked to prepare for " contingencies"..providing photographic evidence for a back up story; the story, that due to certain unforeseeable circumstances ended up being used.

I can't believe the " lone nut" plan was plan A

I think the evidence strongly suggests multiple shooter/ commie plot angle.

The plotters were obviously sophisticated, highly versed in covert operations and with the tactical awareness and ability to improvise.

I don't believe for a moment that any ex Nazis were involved. Stories of ratline snipers taking aim from the 6th floor and wizened ex SS desperados studying maps of Dealey Plaza as avidly as they had once studied the suburbs of Paris, the fortresses of Brest Litovsk and Eban Emael and the forests of the Ardennes is pulp fiction of the most cynical kind.

By 1963 the Nazis belonged in the past, mostly ekeing out an existence in the lower echelons of the German ( West and East) bureaucracies, cowering in increasingly squalid South American boltholes or for the few lucky ones reclining in their comfortably upholstered offices in Bonn or Pankow
These were yesterday's men, haunted by their past misdeeds and desperate to prolong their mortal existences...in case those Polish bishops they left dangling lifelessly from makeshift gallows and those Latvian rabbis they left packed like sardines in hastily dug grave pits outside Riga were right.
That they'd be called to account for their actions by a court infinitely more powerful than Morgen's SS Judge Advocates Office or even the Nuremberg Tribunals.

The men who killed Kennedy were focused on tomorrow.
On the paddy fields of SE Asia rather than old fossils intent on refighting the lost battles of yesterday in the ruins of Old Europe..

Despite this the men in power, the men who had the ability to kill a president came to maturity in the war years. The tactics of that era, to a greater or lesser extent, moulded their characters.

The Germans ( and later the Americans) emphasised the importance of flexible leadership. " Mission Command" . Making do with what you have available...be that a battalion of tank destroyers or a mob connected night club owner

Something obviously went wrong. Badly wrong.
Oswald surviving to see the sunrise on the 23rd? Possibly.

Maybe Reed's job was to prepare for a scenario to make certain whatever went wrong was quickly put right..

Vinny wrote:Do you feel that the incident that Craig claimed really happened? That he identified Oswald in Fritz's office as having got into the Rambler?

Hey Vinny,

Roger Craig is an interesting character. I do believe he saw a man who may have looked like Oswald as he claimed. Fritz changed his story over time about Craig having been in or near the room where Oswald was being held. For that reason alone, I tend to believe Craig's version of events regarding his claim of having observed Oswald in the homicide bureau. I have no doubt in his own mind he was convinced that the Rambler man was the same man he witnessed in Fritz' office. Whether they were or not is another matter.

I believe Fritz lied about Craig's claims of having seen Oswald in his office because he wanted to distance himself from any other getaway possibilities other than the bus ride which was used to nail Oswald to Tippit's murder.

Of course that's only my opinion.

Craig told the truth as he saw it.

There are three factors to consider.

1. The timing. This was 10 to 15 minutes after the assassination. It may well be wise to leave that late as it defies expectations of an assassin. Would take a brave soul though...

2. Undermining the potential wisdom of leaving so long after the kill is that the person's behavior is what actually drew Craig's attention. In a hurry to get away. If you were the assassin and you wanted to make a late getaway so you don;t look suspicious, the last thing you should do is HURRY and draw the attention you're trying to avoid.

3. Craig's testimony, if accurate, would confuse an innocent patsy - and Oswald's reported response does indicate confusion.

Mr. CRAIG - No; we didn't find anything at that time. Now, as we were searching, we had just got over across the street, when I heard someone whistle.
Mr. BELIN - Now, about how many minutes was this after the time that you had turned that young couple over to Lemmy Lewis that you heard this whistle?
Mr. CRAIG - Fourteen or 15 minutes.
Mr. BELIN - Fourteen or 15 minutes?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Was this, you mean, after the shooting?
Mr. CRAIG - After the---from the time I heard the first shot.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Your heard someone whistle?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes. So I turned and--uh-saw a man start to run down the hill on the north side of Elm Street, running down toward Elm Street.


Not the behavior (IMO) of an assassin who has left it this late to get out of Dodge.


Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--
Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?
Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.
Mr. BELIN - Anything else about him?

Mr. CRAIG - No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry.


And there it is... a generic young white male... someone who could easily be an extra on Happy Days...the photo shows it is not Oswald, so we are left with a deliberate Oswald impersonator, or a generic young white male assassin who was not deliberately impersonating anyone, or a generic young white male acting like a generic young white male, not understanding that whistling and running to a lift might be perceived as suspicious by professional suspicioners (no - not Harry Holmes -- Roger Craig and future CTers!)

Mr. BELIN - What kind and what color station wagon was it?
Mr. CRAIG - It was light colored--almost--uh--it looked white to me.
Mr. BELIN - What model or make was it?
Mr. CRAIG - I thought it was a Nash.
Mr. BELIN - Why would you think it was a Nash?
Mr. CRAIG - Because it had a built-in luggage rack on 'the top. And--uh--at the time, this was the only type car I could fit with that type luggage rack.
Mr. BELIN - A Nash Rambler-is that what you're referring to?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes; with a rack on the the back portion of the car, you know.

Let's leave aside the brouhaha over the color and concentrate on the make and model. A Nash Rambler because this is crucial to how Craig described what was said in Fritz's office. The color is an unimportant distraction.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG - I drove up to Fritz' office about, oh, after 5--about 5:30 or something like that--and--uh--talked to Captain Fritz and told him what I had saw. And he took me in his office---


Okay... so Craig gave Fritz all the DETAILS in the outer office BEFORE going in to ID Oswald. This would have included the fact that it was a Nash Rambler.

Back to Craig
I believe it was his office---it was a little office, and had the suspect setting in a chair behind a desk---beside the desk. And another gentleman, I didn't know him, he was sitting in another chair to my left as I walked in the office. And Captain Fritz asked me was this the man I saw--and I said, "Yes," it was.

Upon entering, he is asked if it is the person he saw and he confirms a belief that it is. Nothing here about any car at all.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Will you describe the man you saw in Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and--uh-- what 1 could tell of him sitting there, he was--uh---short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build.
Mr. BELIN - Could you see his trousers?
Mr. CRAIG - No; I couldn't see his trousers at all.
Mr. BELIN - What about his shirt?
Mr. CRAIG - I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt.
Mr. BELIN - All right. But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there?
Mr. CRAIG - No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one side.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the suspect say?
Mr. CRAIG - Captain Fritz then asked him about the---uh---he said, "What about this station wagon?"
And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"---I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

There it is. In front of Oswald, the only description given of the car is that it was a station wagon. This confuses Oswald because the only person he knows with a station wagon is Ruth Paine and he is wandering out loud why the hell they are bringing her into it.

Back to Craig
And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene."
And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now."
And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain Fritz.

What is noted here is that Fritz tells Oswald that Craig is a witness to his leaving. But crucially, no time-frame is mentioned. Oswald again is puzzled because not only is it obvious he left the building, but he had in fact TOLD THEM HIMSELF that he had left the building and is puzzled as to why this is supposed to be evidence of anything. Had it been mentioned that this was about  15 minutes after the assassination, Oswald may or may not have confirmed that as the time he left (I do think that the timing may well be coincidentally close).

What this (and the photo) shows is that Craig saw a generic white male who recognizes someone in a Nash Rambler, whistles to get their attention and runs down to grab a lift.  The whole thing about the confusion in Fritz's office is caused by Oswald not knowing what the hell Craig and Fritz are talking about -- put all this in the CT mill, stir in a Cuban driver and voila! The grist is churned into another Grimm Fairy Tale.

The ONLY thing in this whole affair that may be cause for any reasonable speculation is the last bit of Craig's story, "Now everyone will know who I am"  with Oswald rising out of his chair and eyeballing Fritz. This may well have a plausible and innocent explanation, but made to look suspicious only by the absence of other things said just prior, probably by Fritz (and Craig did say Oswald interrupted him, so at that point, Craig may not have heard anything else Fritz said).  
----------------------------
From Thomas Kelley's interrogation report based on interrogation commencing around 10:30 am Saturday
"In response to questions put by Captain Fritz, Oswald said that immediately after having left the building where he worked, he went by bus to the theater where he was arrested; that when he go on the bus he secured a transfer and thereafter transferred to other buses to get to his destination."



While it is self-evident that Fritz and the FBI would lie about what Oswald said about leaving and his destination, AND put changes of story into his mouth, it is unclear why Kelley would make up so specific a lie that adds nothing to the case against Oswald -- indeed, is exculpatory evidence at least in the Tippit case.


But Kelley obviously does get on board with the others as he goes on to say in his report...
"Fritz asked him if he had ridden a taxi that day and Oswald then changed his story and said that when he got on the bus he found it was going too slow and after two blocks he got off the bus and took a cab to his home; that he passed the time with the cab driver and that the cab driver had told him that the President was shot. He paid a cab fare of $0.85."



Fritz's report does not include means of leaving the TSBD being mentioned in the very first interrogation, Friday afternoon. He merely claims Oswald said he left work, went to his boarding house, changed clothes and went to the movies.

The Bookhout/Hosty report on that same interrogation session however, does have Oswald on a bus back to his boarding house, changing etc.

Here is what Bookhout/Hosty said in their report on the Saturday morning session:

"Following his departure from the Texas School Book Depository, he boarded a city bus to his residence and obtained transfer upon departure from the bus. He stated that officers at the time of arresting him took his transfer out of his pocket.

So the same as per day one, except the transfer makes its debut --- and gets taken from Oswald during the pat-down outside the theatre.

They also have Oswald now changing his story to include getting off the bus and into a cab. 

__________________

It looks to me like Oswald had a transfer because he did in fact need one, taking two or more buses to get to the TT (unlike the scenario in which he gets one even though he intends getting a cab). This transfer is taken off him during the arrest.

It is therefore pretty much inconceivable that a bus ride from work was not discussed on the Friday. And even tho Fritz fails to mention it, Bookhout and Hosty do - albeit lying about the specifics, especially in having Oswald go to the boarding house - a needed part of the police case in order to account for the pistol and the shooting of Tippit.

For whatever reason, the bus trip is mentioned again on the Saturday morning. This time Thomas Kelley is present and he records exactly what Oswald says - which again is the only scenario that makes sense of his having a transfer. But remember, all the reports were written well after the fact - well after enough time for everyone to agree to add certain details to the accounts - and so it is that Kelley adds the bullshit about changing his story to getting off a bus into a cab and going "home" before going to the movies. He doesn't realize that he also needed to change the first edition of the story... about going direct to the movies. He does not know that he alone is including that part. Bookhout was FBI Liaison to Robbery and Homicide, He and Fritz were used to working together, Kelley was a Secret Service blow-in. 

Conclusions:

1. Oswald took two or more buses direct to the TT. In this scenario, he actually had a need for a transfer.
2, The interrogators colluded to agree to write in their reports that Oswald altered his story to admit to getting off the bus, into a cab and going back to the boarding house.
3. Craig saw someone similar to Oswald - a genuine case of an innocent mistake. 
4. The stuff about the station wagon belonging to Ruth Paine was a misunderstanding  resulting from a lack of information and context given to Oswald by Craig and Fritz, eventually causing 3 quarters of this "community" going down another rabbit hole after turning left at Alburquoikie and landing in the Sahara. 

Greg, what do you think of the possibility that a valid cinema ticket was taken from him during the initial pat down? That would surely have to vanish if the story requires him to duck in without paying. If he did indeed pay to enter it seems a strange decision for him to discard the cinema ticket but keep a bus transfer he no longer requires.


ps; Brian has, once again, bust the case wide open on his FB page...

steely_dan wrote:Couldn't agree more about Baggins JA rant. It's the ultimate Doyleism...minus the unintended humour.

A couple of years ago (on another part of the forum) we had a discussion regarding LHO's journey to the TT. I agree that the Rambler passenger was most likely a generic male leaving the scene in a manner that looked far more suspicious than it actually was. Mcwatter's bus (and the Bledsoe id) followed by Whaley's cab version is the stuff that only a......sperm doner...would believe.
My sticking point with a trip by another bus is....why not produce the actual driver and one or two passengers, who would be far more plausible, than what was offered in place of them?
I guess that's why i still favour BWF dropping him off.

Doyle without the unintentional (or even intentional) humor is spot on.

Understand what you're saying about the bus situation, but...

This bus is the best option for them. They have the very accommodating Mary Bledsoe. They have the bus snarled in traffic. They have a male getting off and asking for a transfer. They have a cabbie who has mistaken a drunk for Oswald dropping him off several blocks from 2026 N Beckley. And they have the ability to bend all of that into an Oswald escape plan AND being able to tie it in to Tippit.

If they went with the actual buses Oswald said he took straight to the TT, they would have to drop the Tippit Murder charge.  

It could be that Oswald lied about getting buses in order to keep Buell from being caught up in it all, but I think the buses story has more going for it. Can't rule Buell out though.

Brian.... sitting all alone in his Facebook page, like a hermit in a cave, or a Yogi waiting for a Booby ( Boo Boo?) to return with a cosmic picnic baske, solves yet another imponderable assassination riddle...

Thanks Brian!!

The " logic"( or whatever passes for logic inside the Sanibel Triangle) he uses is , as always, contradictory and utterly irrational.

He's become so eaten up by his bizarre quest ( try to imagine an acid crazed Tobe Hooper mashing up Moby Dick and Monty Python and the Holy Grail..) to thwart his imaginary foes...a hallucinogenic cabal of troll punks, power drunk booby moderators and corrupt British bastards( as an aside , one that provides a telling insight into the mind of the ex  officio Albert Doyle, try replacing " British" with " Jewish", " African American" in his foaming at the mouth diatribes and they don't scan quite so well.) that he's lost whatever perspective and tenuous grip on reality he might once have had.

You can hear the odd frenzied echo of Brian emerging through the scum ridden waters of Albert's posts.. like the flatulence some anti semitic sea monster after devouring a container ship full of bagels ..but it wasn't until he rose to the defence of Piper, Janney and crucially Ralph Yates, his erstwhile nom du plume , that the full scope of his genius appeared , and he fully  cast off the shackles of reason and logic , embracing his true self.

Highly skilled researcher, genius detective etc etc etc

This latest dispatch ( Lord Nae Baws.. Sanibel Calling! Sanibel Calling!) contains a prime example of his genius.....this die hard supporter of H and L, an almost impossibly convulted decade long double doppelganger project, that would have involved countless personnel postulates that setting up the fake bus/cab ride would have been way too complicated for the conspirators ...

Genius personified

Thanks Alex, Greg and Mick.

greg_parker wrote:

steely_dan wrote:Couldn't agree more about Baggins JA rant. It's the ultimate Doyleism...minus the unintended humour.

A couple of years ago (on another part of the forum) we had a discussion regarding LHO's journey to the TT. I agree that the Rambler passenger was most likely a generic male leaving the scene in a manner that looked far more suspicious than it actually was. Mcwatter's bus (and the Bledsoe id) followed by Whaley's cab version is the stuff that only a......sperm doner...would believe.
My sticking point with a trip by another bus is....why not produce the actual driver and one or two passengers, who would be far more plausible, than what was offered in place of them?
I guess that's why i still favour BWF dropping him off.

Doyle without the unintentional (or even intentional) humor is spot on.

Understand what you're saying about the bus situation, but...

This bus is the best option for them. They have the very accommodating Mary Bledsoe. They have the bus snarled in traffic. They have a male getting off and asking for a transfer. They have a cabbie who has mistaken a drunk for Oswald dropping him off several blocks from 2026 N Beckley. And they have the ability to bend all of that into an Oswald escape plan AND being able to tie it in to Tippit.

If they went with the actual buses Oswald said he took straight to the TT, they would have to drop the Tippit Murder charge.  

It could be that Oswald lied about getting buses in order to keep Buell from being caught up in it all, but I think the buses story has more going for it. Can't rule Buell out though.

Point taken about the buses snarling up the Tippet murder. I'll keep BWF in my hip pocket just in case he drops a bombshell in his book though
One thing that is certain...there has never been a worse time to be a doppelganger aficionado. The clean up continues...

Works for me, Steely.

From our favourite loon...

It is pretty clear to me that Roger Craig also saw this same west side exit but his testimony was screened of this particular content for obvious reasons...

This is a smoking gun...


No Brian, it's a spud gun and you're trying to load it with a tomato.
Typical.

Brian, you do make me laugh. You've already banned me from your FB page you champion of free speech you. Since you're an A team researcher i'll let you figure out who i was.
As for dwelling in Greg Parker's "odious armpit" i'll have you know he showers at least twice a month, which, according to Sanibel residents, is a level of cleanliness they hope you may one day achieve.
You're missing the forums aren't you?...are they missing you though? You're a smart guy you say, think about it.

Author
Prayer Woman My ban list shows nobody is blocked...Only Iacoletti from my main page...You're avoiding the substance of what I wrote about Helen Forrest Steely - which makes you a troll...My posts focus on the evidence...
1h · Edited

Brian, do you need a clue?
I didn't think you would. You're a genius...so you say. I was not using the name Steely...so have another look.
My focus is on the evidence.
I think you're a naysayer.