truly, kaminsky and oswald and the address confusion

@Steve Thomas You made the following observations over at the Ed Forum. Sorry to address them here, but that's the way it is.

a) there is no indication that employees were required to show any ID to Kaminsky; and,

There is at least an indication - short of outright proof.

Here is what Harold Norman told the HSCA investigator:

This was no "roll call" he is talking about. You don't take names and addresses at a roll call. You don't tell people to go home and not go anywhere until the cops contact you at a roll call. Police, especially when taking lots of names and addresses that they KNOW they will need to contact later, do not ask for that information to be supplied verbally.  They could not trust everyone not to give false information. NOr could they affor to spend all that time asking for the right spellings of surnames or street names. The situation, at the very least, called for sighting ID with an address.

b) even if Oswald had shown his library card as ID, there was nothing on it that would lead the police to Beckley.

Sorry for the confusion, but neither I nor Jim said it did.

Here is how I think they got that address
https://gregrparker.com/forums/topic/the-johnsons-fay-puckett-and-pat-hall/

c) the idea that Kaminsky saw Oswald's library card upside down is pure speculation - there's no way for us to know.

It's not pure speculation. Pure speculation is the evidence-free assertion that the boarding house address and the old Elsbeth address were obtained from Intel files,

This is based on the fact that

• Truly and Kaminsky were at that door collecting this information
  
• The common sense idea that Kaminsky would require sighting of ID
  
• The fact that Oswald only had one ID with an address on it - his old library card
  
• The fact that the address he had when he obtained that card is the address shown on the list
  
• That, as demonstrated, when held upside down, his name left to right, reads the same as it does on the list - "Harvey Lee Oswald". Also the card has a smudged numeral which could account for the slightly wrong street number on the list. 
  
  

In short, Steve, I see a lot of very good circumstantial evidence for the name and address on that list as coming from that library card. I have never seen anything but evidence-free assertions for any other explanation.

If you do have some evidence pointing elsewhere, I really would appreciate seeing it (if it is something you are free to share).

Likewise the reports of a " Harvey Lee Oswald" in the Soviet Union.
In Russia, then as now, in official documentation and in everyday life both the first name and the patronymic are used.

To Russian eyes Harvey would have been the patronymic.

The two first names were regularly reversed, even in the West the surname sometimes precedes the given name:

Oswald, Lee.

Harvey Lee was just the result of clerks etc adhering to the long established technique in official communiques of putting the patronymic first.

Likewise the Comrade and the Citizen . These were used interchangeably, depending on the circumstances and/ or the relationship between the parties in question.

I think Citizen was used more in formal situations, while Comrade was reserved for personal use , or between party members.

But I'd have to check. 

There was a clearly delineated protocol for correspondence at this time...

There's no big mystery behind this, also the Soviet bureaucracy at this time was notoriously unreliable, beginning the process of corrosion that would culminate in the Stagnation of the Brezhnev years at the Geriatocracy that followed...

My mum visited the Soviet Union just after Gorbachev had come to power .. managing to interview both Molotov and Kaganovich , who were both still alive....just.

Embalmed and emaciated like a pair of walking mummies, still living in their apartments in the House on the Embankment...living fossils, spending their days and nights communing with the unquiet spirits that strode the poorly lit halls...

Molotov in particular was unrepentant....a shrivelled little husk, his American made suit clinging to his frail old bones as he sat under the huge portrait of the man who almost murdered his wife ..the man whose death saved his own life..

After Stalin's own signature, or rather his initials scrawled in green pencil, Molotov's own signature, neat and precise, a small self effacing scribble ...all ponderous loops and prim bourgeois spirals .. redolent of the man himself, most often described as a provincial school teacher. (Unprepossessing appearance, apart from the piercing grey eyes carefully obscured by the pince nez...) appears on most of the ukazes, the execution lists sent first by Yagoda then Yezhov, Blackberry, the poison dwarf, all 5 foot of him, and finally Lavrentii Pavlovich Beria...

This was mass murder by quota...30000 to be shot in the Ukraine...

Molotov spoke wistfully of Stalin, blushing like an ingenue at the articles praising his lugubrious diplomatic style..." Iron Arse" they called him...

Once daring to interrupt the Fuhrer in full flow, those hypnotic blue eyes filled with a far away daemonic gleam, the husky voice softening to a muted drawl ..as if he was sitting once again in the backroom of the Osteria in Munich surrounded by his closest acolytes...Sepp Dietrich, petrol pump attendant turned SS Colonel General, Emil Maurice, co founder of the Stosstrupp Hitler, rival for the affections of Geli Raubal ..half Jewish....

But they were sitting in the air raid shelter under the Reichs Chancellery....the eerie flicker of the candlelight and the dull thuds eminating through the reinforced steel and concrete would have unnerved most people..but not Vyaschslav Scriabin aka Molotov " the Hammer"..brusquely interrupting Hitler's monologue ( this was early 41 ) describing the New Order in lurid detail....the Soviets joining the victorious Axis powers in dividing up the British Empire between them...the British Hitler had assured his guest, more concerned about the German troops pouring into Romania and Finland than fantastical scenarios of warm water ports and natural spheres of influence centred on the Bosphorus, were defeated, their Empire a gigantic bankrupted estate ..

" If the British are defeated" Molotov inquired in a dull monotone " then whose planes are these flying overhead? Why are we hiding in this bunker?"

Kaganovich, " Iron Lazar" on the other hand feigned amnesia. Claiming to remember nothing...whining pitifully in a feeble croak " leave me in peace"

Another of the small group of Westerners ( graduate students/ academics) who had been granted access claimed he soiled himself in her presence. His official " minder" ignoring the smell, kept flicking through the his copy of Pravda...

Anyway there was a semi official exhibition taking place, " celebrating" Soviet inefficiency..

Amidst the piles of rusted samovars, three legged trousers and TV sets that looked like a blindfolded Professor Larsen had made them with a sledgehammer...

The star exhibit was a bottle of mineral water...with a tiny dead mouse floating around inside...

That the Soviet Union survived as long as it did was a tribute to the debilitating power of nightmares.

It was almost as if the psychic energy emitting from the Pentagon, Capitol Hill and certain offices in the Kremlin galvanized the necrotic assortment of skin, bones and fear... keeping it lumbering about until a new enemy could be conjured up from the Middle Eastern deserts and the sparse mountainous hinterlands of Central Asia...

Sorry Greg and everybody for interrupting the flow of this thread... please feel free to move this post to another thread..

Anyway there was a semi official exhibition taking place, " celebrating" Soviet inefficiency..


Amidst the piles of rusted samovars, three legged trousers and TV sets that looked like a blindfolded Professor Larsen had made them with a sledgehammer...


The star exhibit was a bottle of mineral water...with a tiny dead mouse floating around inside...

That the Soviet Union survived as long as it did was a tribute to the debilitating power of nightmares.

Yet they put men into space and women onto tractors before anyone thought either would be possible.  Shit, I still have Ms February, 1955 on my wall from трактор девушка ежемесячно. 


Good stuff, Alex. I left it here but gave it a new title.

Joseph McBride at the ed forum wrote:The DPD had been tracking Oswald for quite some time and knew
his Beckley address. They sent Tippit and Mentzel out to 
get him in Oak Cliff shortly after the assassination, about an hour and a half before Oswald's
identity was "officially" known by the department following
his arrest in Oak Cliff and his transportation to the police station.  

Steve T has rightly asked for evidence for this. If there is any, it will be from interviews with DPD members or relatives - about as reliable as an Armstrong interview with the neighbor of a former resident of Thomas Avenue who once saw a kid shooting hoops with a 303 in the swamps of Alaska. Obviously this kid was Harvey.

Steve Thomas wrote:  18 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:
It's worth noting the library card, even upside down, says 602 Elsbeth for the address.  Jmo again but if I was a betting man, I'd lean toward Oswald already being gone when Kaminsky and Truly started letting employee's out.  Once he heard JFK had actually been shot he knew he was implicated and tried to get the hell out of Dallas.

Ron.

According to the Dispatch Tapes, George Lumpkin had arrived at the TSBD by 12:49 PM

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

 

15 (Captain C.E. Talbert): “15 is at the scene. We... the building's the Old Purse Company on the east side of Houston. Somebody cut off the back side, will you? Make sure nobody leaves there.”

Dispatcher: “10-4, 15”

15: “15's in charge down here. Correction 5's (Deputy Chief Lumpkin) in charge.”

 

(It appears that Talbert had the wrong building in mind).

The "602" in the address is the result of viewing the card upside down. The "5" - at least upside down, to me looks like a "5" and a "2" stamped over each other.

There is NOWHERE else the address could have come from.

The radio log is interesting but I disagree that it says that Lumpkin arrived at 12:49. That was just the time it was phoned in that he was in charge. He may have just arrived, or he may have been there for 5 or 10 munites.

Talbot calling in the "Old Purse and Co." building is very puzzling. Especially if, as suggested in the log, he was at the scene.  That building was at 601 Elm and looked nothing like the TSBD.

According to this article, the FBI used the Purse & Co building as their operations centre after JFK was shot.

https://www.papercitymag.com/real-estate/dallas-historic-purse-building-restored-tanya-ragan-woman-developer/

Phil_Hopley wrote:According to this article, the FBI used the Purse & Co building as their operations centre after JFK was shot.

https://www.papercitymag.com/real-estate/dallas-historic-purse-building-restored-tanya-ragan-woman-developer/

Thanks Phil.

That would probably explain some cops being there, but it is a bit odd that I haven't been able to find confirmation through MFF.

You've got the February 1955 issue!!!

You lucky capitalist dog!!! 

I'll swap you two September 1956s.... Tatiana, the titillating tractoress with tits shaped like turnips ...in a full colour spread with Tomsky Kazakhstan's answer to King Dong....16 inches of pure proletarian penetrative power ......hung better than a cattletruck full of Trotskyist saboteurs in a Byelorussian forest...

What they do with a couple of beetroots, a bowl of borscht,  the rusted bolt of a Gewehr '98 rifle is enough to make your degenerate bourgeois lackey eyes water...

Seriously, Steve T is someone who I've always respected. He's absolutely right to ask for any supporting documentation.

Since rereading William Weston's article ( Bill Shelley CIA agent for Armstrongs sake!!) I've been trying, with as much care and circumspection as possible to re evaluate much of what I believed.

Time and time again I'm amazed( and not in a good way) of how flimsy, poorly sourced and sometimes how blatantly deceptive a lot of the most treasured " CT" myths truly are. Time and time I'm amazed at how easily I was dazzled by the intoxicating allure of conspiracy...

Just because the Warren Commission relied upon deceit is not an excuse. You were absolutely spot on Greg when you said that we've got to be extra scrupulous when dealing with facts. Especially when dealing with such a controversial subject, one that is so emotive and so divisive. Any factual errors, however slight and seemingly inconsequential will be seized upon , and indeed celebrated by individuals with less than honourable motives...

All facts and indeed all witnesses must be treated equally. Be they Howard Brennan or Jean Hill

Too many people have been way too eager to believe, and way too accommodating with those beliefs...

Conspiracy has become both the means and the end. Conspiracy must be preserved, no matter the cost. The case has been distorted by far too many conspiracy friendly witnesses...whose testimony would have been discarded long ago if it wasn't for the fact their statement/ testimony/ witnessing props up the favoured theory.

How many years have been wasted chasing witness statements down dead end street after dead end street?

Take " Harvey Lee Oswald" ... IMHO this is just another non mystery , one that should have been put to bed decades ago.

The " roll call " too...

Certain " researchers" refuse to allow human beings to be human beings!!!

No one ever makes any honest mistakes, no one ever gets flustered, mixed up or confused...

Their various testimonies must be put under the lense of some impossibly unforgiving microscope, and held up to some arbitrary standard ; a totally unrealistic standard

Its become almost laughably absurd. It's utterly impossible to reason with individuals who seem to exist in some alternate dimension....
Whatever they need to be fake- photos, films, documents, human beings- ARE fake simply because they need them to be.
Ask for proof and you will be showered with abuse ...

Accused of being anything from a naïve fool to some nefarious disinfo operative...a minion of the shadow government dispatched from an office deep in the bowels of the Pentagon to stop David Josephs revealing that someone faked the shadows on HARVEYs passport photo...

Theres no shame in being mistaken; on the contrary it is by making mistakes and learning from them that helps an individual to grow. To mature.

Refusing to accept your mistakes, looking for others to blame, trying to accommodate that mistake by making more ...for example saying all the other films were faked rather than accepting your original claim was mistaken...is a recipe for utter disaster.

The lack of growth, remaining forever mired in a noisy adolescence.. blaming the rest of the world for your errors....is why , to a certain extent, research has stagnated, ossified in unwavering self righteousness....

greg_parker wrote:
The "602" in the address is the result of viewing the card upside down. The "5" - at least upside down, to me looks like a "5" and a "2" stamped over each other.

There is NOWHERE else the address could have come from.

Greg,


I just saw this thread. I don't drop in here as frequently as I used to. If you want to let me know of something being written about in here, you can always drop me an email at st09183@gmail.com.


There is one other place where the 602 Elsbeth was known, and that's the files of George Bouhe.

FBI interview of George Bouhe:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&relPageId=400&search=Bouhe

"On November 28, 1963 Bouhe was interviewed by SA John Flanagan about any possible relationship between Jack Ruby and Lee Oswald. In the course of the interview, Bouhe "produced a card on which he kept addresses and this card bore the notation dated November 1, 1963, 602 Elsbeth..."
“Following his residence at the YMCA, he said Oswald secured a room in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas, but he could not recall this address, nor did he have a record of it in his papers. At this point Mr. Bouhe produced a card on which he kept addresses.”"


(I believe that “1963” was a misprint. It should have been “1962”).
(Some day, if you're interested, we can explore the possible connections between George Bouhe and military intelligence).


What Lumpkin wrote in his report to Curry concerning Kaminsky's actions at the TSBD
matches almost exactly what Postal Inspector, Harry Holmes wrote in his Report of Oswald's interrogation on Sunday, November 24^th.
See Warren Report, Appendix XI page 636
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=660&tab=page

 
Neither Lumpkin, nor Oswald, mention Oswald having to show Kaminsky an ID.


Steve Thomas

Steve Thomas wrote:

greg_parker wrote:
The "602" in the address is the result of viewing the card upside down. The "5" - at least upside down, to me looks like a "5" and a "2" stamped over each other.

There is NOWHERE else the address could have come from.

Greg,


I just saw this thread. I don't drop in here as frequently as I used to. If you want to let me know of something being written about in here, you can always drop me an email at st09183@gmail.com.


There is one other place where the 602 Elsbeth was known, and that's the files of George Bouhe.

FBI interview of George Bouhe:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&relPageId=400&search=Bouhe

"On November 28, 1963 Bouhe was interviewed by SA John Flanagan about any possible relationship between Jack Ruby and Lee Oswald. In the course of the interview, Bouhe "produced a card on which he kept addresses and this card bore the notation dated November 1, 1963, 602 Elsbeth..."
“Following his residence at the YMCA, he said Oswald secured a room in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas, but he could not recall this address, nor did he have a record of it in his papers. At this point Mr. Bouhe produced a card on which he kept addresses.”"


(I believe that “1963” was a misprint. It should have been “1962”).
(Some day, if you're interested, we can explore the possible connections between George Bouhe and military intelligence).


What Lumpkin wrote in his report to Curry concerning Kaminsky's actions at the TSBD
matches almost exactly what Postal Inspector, Harry Holmes wrote in his Report of Oswald's interrogation on Sunday, November 24^th.
See Warren Report, Appendix XI page 636
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=660&tab=page

 
Neither Lumpkin, nor Oswald mention Oswald having to show Kaminsky an ID.


Steve Thomas

Thanks for the reply, Steve.

Oswald: The police officer "questioned him as to his identification..."

Norman: "They got our address and everything..."

Neither mention how they provided their contact details. But I can tell you this, looking at the transcripts of the taped HSCA interviews, I would expect a lot of spelling errors on Revill's list if the information was given verbally. The reason being, the interviews of Norman and Jarman show Truly as "Trudy", among a number of such examples, because the tapes were transcribed based on how the names sounded when spoken by these people. Bonny Ray was another whose name got mangled because of how it was being pronounced.

Police ask for ID so that they have correct spellings and hopefully current correct details. Both Oswald and Norman state they were asked for such details. Can you imagine the cops accepting verbal details  and then finding out later that there was no "Donald Duck" working in the building, let alone anyone with that name resident in Dallas? Not even the Dallas cops were that bad.

As for the Bouhe card and address, you are relying on him having passed that address onto Military Intelligence AND his having mistranscribed the year he wrote it.  Reminiscent of Ruth Paine getting her months mixed up on her calendar in regard to certain alleged purchases. 

Meanwhile, the fact that no cops raced there is a strong indication that they had an alternative address pretty quickly via Reserve Officer Nicholson. 

What happened does not need spooky connections and assumed passing of information to be understood and make sense. You just need to look at normal police practices. And in this case, those practices fit exactly what we find in the records.

Both Oswald and Norman state they were asked for such details.


Hey Greg, has this been reported about Oswald saying he was asked for his details in one or more of the interrogators notes or statements?

Mick_Purdy wrote:Both Oswald and Norman state they were asked for such details.


Hey Greg, has this been reported about Oswald saying he was asked for his details in one or more of the interrogators notes or statements?

Steve posted the only reference to it above is in Holmes' report. I'd have to check his testimony again to see if it is also there.

Holmes is one three people who are generally and unfairly pilloried by all and sundry.

Holmes because there is a perception that he helped frame Oswald for the weapon's purchases. Yet without Holmes asking questions of Oswald about his alibi and accurately reporting it, we may not have come as far as we have.

Marguerite has been character assassinated since day one because all and sundry fell for that ploy from the authorities as a means of destroying her credibility when it came to defending her son and insisting he worked for the government.

And lastly, the desultory figure of Albert Osborne - a fake man of the cloth fleecing old ladies out of donations - yet the only honest bus witness on the trip to MC. His rehabilitation is coming.

alex_wilson wrote:
Take " Harvey Lee Oswald" ... IMHO this is just another non mystery , one that should have been put to bed decades ago.

Alex,



I personally think that the name Harvey Lee Oswald is a name, a file, that has nothing to do with the Harvey and Lee theory put forth by John Armstrong, Jim Hargrove and others.
I think the Harvey Lee Oswald persona was created long before we knew it to be, but by who or why or how, I don't know. I think this persona, or file, or dossier was created and shared across all spectrums of the intelligence community.

I agree with Peter Dale Scott when he wrote, This "Harvey Lee Oswald" reference is no accidental anomaly, but part of an organized pattern, widely dispersed, that suggests an official intelligence deception (and possible dual filing system). Serial 02296-E of 27 Jun 60 is the earliest Harvey Lee Oswald reference we now possess of over two dozen, from the files of ONI, FBI, CIA, Army Intelligence, the Secret Service, the Mexican Secret Police (DFS), and the Dallas Police.”


I myself, have collected 48 such instances of the name, “Harvey Lee Oswald” being used in official correspondence or reports.


Steve Thomas

Thanks for your reply Steve.

It wasn't my intention to associate you with the ' Harvey and Lee" brigade.

If my post gave you that impression, and if you thought I appeared in any way dismissive of disrespectful you have my profound apologies.

I assure you that no disrespect was intended. On the contrary Steve I have a great deal of respect for you and your research. Indeed you are one of the handful of researchers I've been following since I was a lurker

In my opinion your research ( including your debunking of Juddufkis/ Shackelfords Adrian Alba fantasy) has always been top notch

I'm aware of the list you alluded to, and i've carefully studied each of the 48 instances.

In my opinion most, if not all can be dismissed. The apparent Harvey Lee Oswald anomalies are easily explicable, due to the standard , long established Soviet naming conventions. 
To Soviet eyes Harvey would simply be the patronymic

Likewise Citizen/ Comrade

If you doubt me ask Greg, he will confirm that, due to my background I've had the opportunity to speak with several Soviet era defectors.

The only thing I dismiss out of hand is the H and L fantasy.

Is aanyo anyone else having trouble typing? Sorry for the post

alex wrote:In my opinion most, if not all can be dismissed. The apparent Harvey Lee Oswald anomalies are easily explicable, due to the standard , long established Soviet naming conventions. 
To Soviet eyes Harvey would simply be the patronymic

I can confirm your circle of contacts regarding Soviet/Russian history is extremely impressive. And you have raised the naming conventions with me previously regarding Marina.

Let me add a couple more that probably impact on that list.

"Lee" is most often a middle name. I would suggest that before "Lee Harvey Oswald" became a household name, some of those coming across it would unconsciously  rearrange the name to what their brain says it should be. 

The other thing that happens religiously in big organizations? disseminating mistakes throughout their networks. Once it was written erroneously in one document and that document is shared around... so the mistake spreads unknowingly.

Shit. Look at the TSBD calling him "Leslie Oswald" in doing his pay on one occasion.

If the cops had confiscating that paperwork without knowing it was wrong, the record would be full of that name being disseminated to all agencies. 

The FBI spent god knows how many manpower hours chasing Ana Hidell. It was not even a name. It was someone copying handwritten notes and reading "An A Hidell" as "Ana Hidell".

You can go through the 26 volumes and spend a lifetime chronicling all the wrongly spelled names and all the chasing after those people under those wrongly transcribed names.

I say this with all due respect. It is after all, just another opinion. But my opinion is that the widespread belief that the "Harvey Lee Oswald" name in the records is part of some intelligence game, whether a mole hunt or whatever else, really needs to spend a few weeks in a huge bureaucracy that keeps files on people.  It will open your eyes to how easily mistakes are made and circulated. The intel game theory is - again in my opinion - fanciful nonsense and is part of a wider problem of trying to squeeze every anomaly into the conspiracy matrix. Go to a conspiracy answer by all means -- but only after exhausting all plausible "every day" possibilities and weighing it against other KNOWN data. 

Let me put it another way in regard to the name issue. It is not a mistake made 40 deliberately over times.  It is a mistake made maybe two or three time at most with the mistake unwittingly repeated over 40 times.

greg_parker wrote:

Let me put it another way in regard to the name issue. It is not a mistake made 40 deliberately over times.  It is a mistake made maybe two or three time at most with the mistake unwittingly repeated over 40 times.

Greg,


My favorite is the
SS Protective Research Report by Kenneth J. Weisman of an interview with Billy Joe Lord, who traveled to Europe with Oswald aboard the SS Marion Lykes. Lord constantly refers to “Harvey Lee Oswald” whom he found to be “unfriendly, standoffish, and that the two of them “didn't hit off”. (p. 38.)
The Report was written by Weisman on February 28, 1964 and approved by a Jose (?)(Benavides?)(sic?) on March 2, 1964.
The name, Harvey Lee Oswald is used seven times in the same document.


As I said to another researcher, this Report was written in March of 1964, four months after the JFK assassination. This Report is not a mistake, or a typo, this is muscle memory.


Steve Thomas

alex_wilson wrote:Thanks for your reply Steve.

It wasn't my intention to associate you with the ' Harvey and Lee" brigade.

Alex,

No sweat. Be easy.

Steve Thomas

Steve, you said earlier,

I personally think that the name Harvey Lee Oswald is a name, a file, that has nothing to do with the Harvey and Lee theory put forth by John Armstrong, Jim Hargrove and others.
I think the Harvey Lee Oswald persona was created long before we knew it to be, but by who or why or how, I don't know. I think this persona, or file, or dossier was created and shared across all spectrums of the intelligence community.

I agree with Peter Dale Scott when he wrote, This "Harvey Lee Oswald" reference is no accidental anomaly, but part of an organized pattern, widely dispersed, that suggests an official intelligence deception (and possible dual filing system). Serial 02296-E of 27 Jun 60 is the earliest Harvey Lee Oswald reference we now possess of over two dozen, from the files of ONI, FBI, CIA, Army Intelligence, the Secret Service, the Mexican Secret Police (DFS), and the Dallas Police.”

But now you are saying that of your 48 examples, one was actually not just part of a dual filing system, but was in regard to a person actually using that name to travel to Europe. 

This is where I get lost. In such a scenario, I have to ask myself the following questions:

What was the purpose of sending a "Lee Harvey Oswald" impersonator to the Soviet union who was not using the name "Lee Harvey Oswald"?

Why did he use the "Harvey Lee" name only sometimes, and specifically, why with Lord? 

Why would the Secret Service not amend Lord's statement in order to prevent intelligence ops and methods being revealed?

With regard to your two posts, are you saying the use of the name was both part of a dual filing system AND a real life impersonator?

What became of the impersonator?

Are their other examples of dual filing systems and impersonators using variations on someone's name? (I am aware of claims that dual filing systems were reasonably common, but I have yet to see anyone pony up with an example that proves the claim)
--------
While it is harder to brush the Lord statement off as faulty memory, or a miss-transcription by the Secret Service, it is still possible - and given that the alternative explanations are even less likely, I would say it becomes even probable. Lord, as you suggest, was surely aware by the time of that statement that officially, the passenger was "Lee Harvey Oswald". I would expect in that circumstance for the record to say something like  "Lord recognizes photos of Lee Harvey Oswald as the passenger who introduced himself as "Harvey Lee Oswald".

His WC affidavit of June 1964 gets the name right
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=45&search="billy_joe+lord"#relPageId=127&tab=page

The actual report of the SS interview with Lord actually starts out...

"Reference is made to SAIC Weisheit's memo... requesting that Billy Joe Lord be interviewed regarding his and Harvey Lee Oswald's trip...."


So Weissman is referring to Oswald as "Harvey Lee" before he even interviews Lord.

That makes zero sense as anything other than a mistake. Even though it was post assassination, the name Lee Harvey Oswald had not yet become indelible in the public psyche. Thee are others in the records who recalled meeting someone they recalled as wrongly "Harvey Lee Oswald".  To claim that someone did use that name with Lord, is to suggest that the Secret Service either did not have prior knowledge, or were too stupid to realize that they were tripping over an intel operation and giving it away. And once it was in the records, not only did no one cleanse said records, they were allowed to be released very early on.

I choose not to credit things that on the surface, fit some conspiracy James Bond angle, but make no sense when put under the microscope. Some authors never get below the surface by asking themselves the questions that should be asked before proceeding with it. 

The records are full of inaccuracies, miss-steps, confused recollections and record-keeping bungles. It is the small percentage of anomalies that do not fit into that, that we need to zero in on. 


I understand you probably do not agree. I also understand I could be wrong.

greg_parker wrote:Steve, you said earlier,




The actual report of the SS interview with Lord actually starts out...

"Reference is made to SAIC Weisheit's memo... requesting that Billy Joe Lord be interviewed regarding his and Harvey Lee Oswald's trip...."


So Weissman is referring to Oswald as "Harvey Lee" before he even interviews Lord.

Greg,


The dual filing system suggestion was acrually Peter Dale Scott's idea, and I think it was only in reference to the Mexixo City records.

With respect to Billy Joe Lord's interview, that was my point exactly. What I actually said to this other researcher was that Weissman was either reading off a script, or it was muscle memory. I don't know if was Lord who was calling Oswald, "Harvey Lee", or if it was Weissman transcribing what Lord said. (I personally think it was the latter).
It's hard to understand Weissman referring to Oswald that way when the name "Lee Harvey Oswald" had been in the news probably 10,000 times between November, 1963 and March, 1964.

I have wondered if "Harvey Lee Oswald" didn't start out as part of Angleton's mole hunt to uncover who was researching that name. It got loose and became widely disseminated.


I think that "Harvey Lee Oswald" was the 5'10"165 lb Oswald who had blue eyes and had brown, wavy hair, such as this document:

There have been many references to a cable sent on the evening of 11/22 from Fort Sam Houston to Strike Command, McDill AFB in Florida. In the cable, reference was made, to information obtained by Detective Don Stringfellow of the Dallas Police Department. I managed to locate a copy of the cable, which you can find here:
https://archive.org/details/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK
In the Stringfellow cable referenced above, Harvey Lee Oswald was described as 5'10" tall, 165 lbs, with blue eyes.



I think that that "Harvey Lee Oswald" file was source of the 12:45 description of the JFK shooter that went out over the police radio.

"Signal 19, involving the President. Suspect: white male, thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches, one hundred sixty-five pounds..."
Nobody knows where that description came from.
I also think that's why the police showed up at 1026 N. Beckley looking for a "Harvey Lee Oswald", as per Earlene Roberts.


Steve Thomas

Regarding the references to " Harvey Lee Oswald" in contemporary Soviet documentation I am of the firm opinion that they can be easily explained.

It was ( and probably still is) standard procedure in official, and indeed in unofficial communiqués, to address the recipient by both given name and patronymic.

This naming convention was a long established Russian tradition, that existed long before the creation of the Soviet Union.

Quite simply to address a letter to a Lee Harvey or a Harvey Lee( it was not unusual for the given name and patronymic to be reversed) would have been expected.
Every bit as commonplace as you or I addressing a letter to Mr Lee Oswald

I'm pretty certain that Comrade and Citizen were almost interchangeable, the former being reserved for more formal or impersonal situations.
But I'd have to refresh my memory.
I'm pretty certain too that Comrade indicated a certain degree of familiarity, it was also the standard greeting exchanged between party members.

Certain anomalies surrounding Oswalds CIA file ( it's segregation from the Central Registry, the involvement of Angleton and the SOG rather than the Soviet desk, it's late opening and it's circitious route etc) seem to indicate it could have been used as part of a mole hunt.

This is just another example of the destructive pernicious effect the Harvey and Lee fantasy exerted. The make believe James Bond scenarios conjured up by irresponsible amateurs, who possess no real historical knowledge and even less understanding of the subject

Steve Thomas wrote:

greg_parker wrote:Steve, you said earlier,




The actual report of the SS interview with Lord actually starts out...

"Reference is made to SAIC Weisheit's memo... requesting that Billy Joe Lord be interviewed regarding his and Harvey Lee Oswald's trip...."


So Weissman is referring to Oswald as "Harvey Lee" before he even interviews Lord.

Greg,


The dual filing system suggestion was acrually Peter Dale Scott's idea, and I think it was only in reference to the Mexixo City records.

With respect to Billy Joe Lord's interview, that was my point exactly. What I actually said to this other researcher was that Weissman was either reading off a script, or it was muscle memory. I don't know if was Lord who was calling Oswald, "Harvey Lee", or if it was Weissman transcribing what Lord said. (I personally think it was the latter).
It's hard to understand Weissman referring to Oswald that way when the name "Lee Harvey Oswald" had been in the news probably 10,000 times between November, 1963 and March, 1964.

I have wondered if "Harvey Lee Oswald" didn't start out as part of Angleton's mole hunt to uncover who was researching that name. It got loose and became widely disseminated.


I think that "Harvey Lee Oswald" was the 5'10"165 lb Oswald who had blue eyes and had brown, wavy hair, such as this document:

There have been many references to a cable sent on the evening of 11/22 from Fort Sam Houston to Strike Command, McDill AFB in Florida. In the cable, reference was made, to information obtained by Detective Don Stringfellow of the Dallas Police Department. I managed to locate a copy of the cable, which you can find here:
https://archive.org/details/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK
In the Stringfellow cable referenced above, Harvey Lee Oswald was described as 5'10" tall, 165 lbs, with blue eyes.



I think that that "Harvey Lee Oswald" file was source of the 12:45 description of the JFK shooter that went out over the police radio.

"Signal 19, involving the President. Suspect: white male, thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches, one hundred sixty-five pounds..."
Nobody knows where that description came from.
I also think that's why the police showed up at 1026 N. Beckley looking for a "Harvey Lee Oswald", as per Earlene Roberts.


Steve Thomas

Steve, I'll meet you part way.

I agree that is the description that went out by DPD.

But I don't agree it is why the asked for "Harvey Lee Oswald". U believe it came from Revill's list via the library card flashed upside down.

I also disagree that we don't know where that description came from.

Again - no mystery - no spooks planting false info.

That is the description of Lee given by Marguerite to FBI SA Fain in 1960 when she was trying to get them to locate Lee in Europe.



Imo, there was no Harvey Lee Oswald.  

As for a dual file for MC,  I would have to study the reports underpinning this. As it stands, since I don't believe that Lee was a mole hunt dangle, I am not inclined to put much stock in dual files. But I have changed my mind in the past on a number of issues. 

Where I stand on MC is that Oswald was not there, nor was he impersonated as such via any lookalikes. I think they simply used his name and background in an operation unrelated to the assassination. Post-assassination, the scrambled to make MC fit their narrative.

Where I stand on MC is that Oswald was not there, nor was he impersonated as such via any lookalikes. I think they simply used his name and background in an operation unrelated to the assassination. Post-assassination, the scrambled to make MC fit their narrative.


For what it's worth, I agree with this. It'd be interesting here for anyone to mention why exactly did they reveal those photos of the crew-cut burly guy who was down there and try to pass this off as Oswald? To me, it makes no sense why they would actually reveal photos that were supposedly Oswald when it's obviously not him.

greg_parker wrote:
Steve, I'll meet you part way.

I agree that is the description that went out by DPD.

But I don't agree it is why the asked for "Harvey Lee Oswald". U believe it came from Revill's list via the library card flashed upside down.

I also disagree that we don't know where that description came from.

Again - no mystery - no spooks planting false info.

That is the description of Lee given by Marguerite to FBI SA Fain in 1960 when she was trying to get them to locate Lee in Europe.

Greg,

I'm assuming you hit the letter U on your keyboard, instead of the letter I.

I have not studied the Mexico City affair and cannot talk to you intelligently, or knowledgeably about it.

If the 12:45 radio call description came from the FBI, why did it have a physical description, but no name?

Warren Commission Exhibit 2003, located in (24H259) is a list submitted to Captain Gannaway through Lieutenant Jack Revill of Texas School Book Depository employees. It is dated November 22, 1963. Heading that list is Harvey Lee Oswald at 605 Elsbeth. Page 3 of CE 2003, found on page 260, is signed by R.W. Westphal, Detective, Criminal Intelligence Section and P.M. Parks, Detective, Administrative Section. R.W. Westphal and P.M. Parks were both Detectives in the Special Service Bureau.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=277&tab=page

Though that list of employees is dated 11/22/63, in Westphal's interview with Larry Sneed in No More Silence, he talks about going home, and then returning to his office at the Fairgrounds to write up his report of a man at the Trade Mart with a “Free Cuba” flag. So, I'm not sure what time of the evening that list was actually typed up. While he was writing his Report, Captain Gannaway called and asked him to check the names of the TSBD employees against the Department's Intelligence files. Westphal said, “We had handwritten, partial lists; some of them, you couldn't read the names”.

You can see this reflected in the list in the entry in CE 2003 for Marg Lee Williams (actually, Mary Lee Williams)
In the DPD Archives, there is no interview or affidavit for Ms. Williams, just a handwritten note with her name and address.
DPD Archives, Box 3, Folder# 17, Item# 7
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm


Westphal did recognize the name of one man, Joe Molina however. Gannaway instructed Westphal to “bring the entire file down to his office”
[url=https://books.google.com/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Dallas+"+Roy+Westphal"&source=bl&ots=eii6yRhLo8&sig=nr0C2_dukxaBfdcQiFnDLg3ugKM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt-9Xpi8nRAhVpwFQKHZBBDX0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Dallas " Roy]https://books.google.com/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Dallas+%22+Roy+Westphal%22&source=bl&ots=eii6yRhLo8&sig=nr0C2_dukxaBfdcQiFnDLg3ugKM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt-9Xpi8nRAhVpwFQKHZBBDX0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Dallas%20%22%20Roy%20Westphal%22&f=false[/url]


V.J. Brian testified to the Warren Commission on May 13, 1964. He told the Commission that he was a “detective in the criminal intelligence section”, as was Roy Westphal. When the shooting occurred, he was at the Trade Mart. He said that, “...four of us detectives down there got in a car and we went to the Book Depository and we arrived there a short time, I don't know what time it was, a short time after the shooting occurred.
Mr. RANKIN. Who were the four you are describing now?
Mr. BRIAN. Lieutenant Revill, myself, a detective, O. J. Tarver, and a detective, Roy W. Westphal and we gave a man a lift, and I don't remember whether he was a CID, I don't know the man, I don't remember whether he was a CIC agent or a CID or OSI, he was some type of, as I recall, Army intelligence man.

He only describes searching the TSBD and said, " in fact, I didn't have time to (write a report of the Hosty/Revill conversation) because when I got back there (to the second floor office of the Special Service Bureau, located directly below Captain Fritz's office on the third floor ) they had a list of names they were going to start checking out and they handed me six of them and says, "Start going and checking here and here and here and checking these people."
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40#relPageId=57&tab=page
(5H33)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brian.htm

The list of employees is arranged in three columns. The first column is an employee name. Some names are misspelled. The third column had their address and phone number. The second column is headed, “REF.INT.” Almost all of the names in that column have the word, “NONE” in that entry. Two names: Joe Molina and Mrs. J.E. Dean (Ruth Dean) have the letters, “INT” and a number. I believe that these are people who were listed in the Police Department's Intelligence Files, as described by Roy Westphal to Larry Sneed. And V.J. Brian in his WC testimony.

If what I believe is true, I noted a couple of things:

1. Harvey Lee Oswald was not in the DPD Intelligence Files.
   
2. Charles Givens, who had a record of narcotic arrests; and as such, would fall under the purview of the Special Service Bureau is listed as NONE. Is this possibly an indication that Givens was an undercover informant to the Criminal Intelligence Section of the Special Service Bureau?
   
3. The list was drawn up long after the 12:45 radio call.
   

I would invite you to read this article:


“However, (Bill) Biggio, who was directing police intelligence communications at the Fair Park office the day of the assassination...,”


“We called down to Austin...”

"Former Dallas police Capt. W. P. Gannaway, who commanded the special service bureau in which Biggio worked, said if Army intelligence in San Antonio or Dallas "had any information pertaining to Oswald, we didn't know about it." “Don Stringfellow, a fellow police intelligence officer working with Biggio at the Fair Park office..."


The 112th down in San Antonio was not sharing information with the Dallas Criminal Intelligence Division. It was until Robert Jones came along in the 1970's and told the HSCA that the 112th had information about about a Hidell, cross referenced with Lee Harvey Oswald.

I personally believe that the information about a Harvey Lee Oswald was coming from George Lumpkin, who was the Commandant of the 4140th US Army Reserve Training School in Dallas, and George Whitmeyer, who Winston Lawson told the Warren Commision "taught Army Intelligence".
Billy Senkel, who rode in the Pilot Car with Lumpkin and Whitmeyer, was sent out to 1026 N. Beckley, and when he got there, was asking for a Harvey Lee Oswald.


Steve Thomas