on posing questions

Over at the  13 inch forum, @JeremyBojczuk had posed the very logical question

The masterminds had a much simpler, cheaper, and more efficient way to achieve their goal: find an American with a knack for languages, get him up to speed in Russian, then send him off to Moscow. Here's the question the 'Harvey and Lee' faithful have been unable to answer:

Why did the masterminds not do this?

This was belatedly responded to by John Kowalski with:

The problem with your question is that it diverts attention away from the facts of the case. Instead of looking at the  evidence presented in Harvey and Lee you pose a hypothetical question that has no actual basis in reality and only makes  sense to you. You must learn to stick to the facts. If everyone debating an issue were to use a hypotheses then no argument can be resolved because someone faced with facts that can't be disputed can simply make up an imaginary scenario like you did rather than admit that they are wrong. And you say nonsense?

Which is a roundabout way of saying you need to deal with what actually happened (as shown via the Armstrongian evidence) and not what you think should have happened.

And therein resides the real issue. The only way to believe that the Armstrongian evidence leads to a conclusion that there was a 10 year plan to send a Hungarian refugee to the Soviet Union posing as a disgruntled ex-Marine, is to make the decision to accept the evidence on faith and not, under any circumstances, lift the hood and look at what's underneath. The exact same faith-based model as the WCR.

If john would care to look through this forum, he will find that the Armstrongian evidence is not , to put it bluntly, honest. 

Some quick examples:

Heads (in the absence of encephalitis) are never 13 inches.

Tonsils can and do grow back.

The kid that Armstrong convinced Mrs Darouse was the mythical Harvey was really a bookish kid who hung around Voebel named Bobby Newman.

The corpse that was exhumed had all the scars that Oswald had. That the original autopsy missed the mastoidectomy scar is entirely explicable through science which is fully laid out in these pages

Oswald was not a native Russian speaker, nor a Hungarian taught Russian (and English) before arriving in the US. Oswald was taught Russian in the Marines

The two men whose names were given by the Mrs Tippit caller were not related to each and neither bear any resemblance to each other or to Oswald.

The CIA already had an infiltration program for emigres. It was known as REDCAP. One such agent was operating in Minsk at the time Oswald was there, but was captured and executed. Such agents were parachuted in and were to gather information on missiles and to recruit cells ready to activate in any uprising. 

That should be enough to get you thinking about how you have been suckered. But there are plenty of other examples in these pages and elsewhere.

You can of course ignore this and continue your faith-based beliefs that instead of using a Marine with language ability, they employed a scheme that would have been passed on even by the writers of Get Smart.

But in doing so, you forfeit the right to be taken seriously.

Don't forget the 13 y/o kid in the Bronx Zoo with a nose the size of an elephants scrotum...which matches a later "photo" the faithful missed.

Just a thought....do we have any photo experts as members who could clear this up?

steely_dan wrote:Don't forget the 13 y/o kid in the Bronx Zoo with a nose the size of an elephants scrotum...which matches a later "photo" the faithful missed.

Didn't know this before, but apparently elephants don't have scrotums (I tried to find a picture of one to post for comparison to the Bronx zoo pic).

Unfortunately like all Armstrongites, elephants lack ballsacks, but make up for it with thick hides and equally thick skulls.

According to Dr Google, The elephant's testicles - about the size of a "respectable globe" - are located under 2 inches of skin, 12 inches of muscle, 4 inches of fat, and an extremely thick 69 inches of hair.

Which despite technically not being a scrotum, is a perfect description of the schnozz in question.

steely_dan wrote:Just a thought....do we have any photo experts as members who could clear this up?

I think there are different kinds of experts.

Some may have expertise in finding evidence of compositing. Others specialize in measurements and distances. Here, presumably we need the former.

Butler it is then.
But he may find a second scrotum....just sayin;

Here is our previous comparison between the Bronx Zoo pic and Frankenstein Oswald. I'm no expert, but t me, it looks a slam dunk that the nose is EXACTLY the same on both pics and has been "added" to both pics. 

The idiots in the Harvey and Lee Gang claim that Frankenstein Oswald is "Lee" and Bronx Zoo Oswald is "Harvey". Not quite sure how that's supposed to work. But I dont think they know either.

 

steely_dan wrote:Butler it is then.
But he may find a second scrotum....just sayin;

Well naturally if there is a real scrotum there has to be an equal but longer and more aggressive doppel-scrotum.

It's good to talk bollocks. It's like the EF. I don't think they'd have me though. Mine haven't dropped yet. Is it true they both look the same? Even if you do a hand stand?
Or....does one look like Harvey as i read in an old scripture...about 3 weeks ago?

greg_parker wrote:Here is our previous comparison between the Bronx Zoo pic and Frankenstein Oswald. I'm no expert, but t me, it looks a slam dunk that the nose is EXACTLY the same on both pics and has been "added" to both pics. 

The idiots in the Harvey and Lee Gang claim that Frankenstein Oswald is "Lee" and Bronx Zoo Oswald is "Harvey". Not quite sure how that's supposed to work. But I dont think they know either.

 

Sloping nostils mate

Sloping nostils mate

Okay... so...

Sloping shoulders = Lee
Sloping Nostrils = Harvey

By Crikey, I think you've cracked it! The EF surely can't ignore the sheer magnitude of this find.  I actually had to straighten my own head before I could see the slope in the nostrils. And that was no easy task, but well worth it!

greg_parker wrote:

Sloping nostils mate

Okay... so...

Sloping shoulders = Lee
Sloping Nostrils = Harvey

By Crikey, I think you've cracked it! The EF surely can't ignore the sheer magnitude of this find.  I actually had to straighten my own head before I could see the slope in the nostrils. And that was no easy task, but well worth it!

It was easy for me...i was pissed and my head fell to one side.
I think i've explained Armstrong!!!!!

" Someone faced with facts that can't be disputed can simply make up an imaginary scenario"

John Kowalski. The Education Forum..

Defending a theory that's about as factual as the questionnaire Mrs Larsen filled in back in the day...applying to the Salt Lake City branch of MENSA to admit her precocious young Sandy....

Defending a book filled with more imaginary scenarios and fantastical make believe critters than the unpublished manuscript written by the " Inklings" , a group of Oxbridge intellectuals including JRR Tolkein and CS Lewis...

Incidentally the manuscript just happened to be titled " Let's see who can make up the most imaginative scenarios and the most fantastical make believe critters"

Neither of the main proselytizers have the guts to raise their goateed or befezzed heads above the parapet... My guess is , based on their long history of cowardice, they're dispatching the junior acolytes to test the waters...perhaps before attempting to float a pared down minimalist version of the H and L fantasy....

Alas however even this leaner meaner fitter version of the doppelganger fable is doomed to failure. 

A putative doppelganger project ( perhaps sans one of the fake Marguerites) beginning in the 50s , according to the latest messenger ( perhaps Mr Kowalski is just a lay brother, who has still to be tonsured, goateed and befezzed, or in the case of Brother Butler, sent to the 97 year old Dr Totenkopf , across the border in Tijuana to be given a full frontal lobotomy) just before JFK took office , still remains every bit as improbable...

If Mr Kowalski believes the " Oswald Project" as described , in all it's mind bending illogical detail , by Baggins and his motley crew , over the past couple of decades is " simple" then perhaps it's more to do with linguistic comprehension rather than epistemology...for if he genuinely believes an excruciatingly intricate decade long double doppelganger project, full of incomprehensible plot twists and Byzantine detours into the Land of Never Ever, represents simplicity, then quite obviously we are talking at cross purposes... obviously " simple" means something else entirely to Mr Kowalski...

What is simply beyond dispute is the fact that the one and only LHO was a native English speaker. For someone possessing the requisite natural ability , and drive, in fact I'm beginning to think Oswald's quirks and peccadilloes ( Asperger's related?) were what initially attracted the attention of the representative (s) of whatever intel agency( why else would this lowly otherwise nondescript grunt be picked out of the olive drab masses?), it would be perfectly possible to acquire the level of proficiency needed for his mission...

The idea of the mysterious Eastern European polyglot doppelganger/ Russian war orphan replacing the all American boy may seem superficially plausible. 

Seductive even. With it's overtones of James Bond intel spook mystique...

But think about it...it makes absolutely no sense...Oswald was NOT there to blend in. He was not sent over as an illegal or as a REDCAP asset. 

This was a disaffected American kid, disillusioned with the imperialist capitalist system....eager to sample the Worker's Paradise...

Why use an Eastern European polyglot doppelganger to masquerade as an all American boy?

Especially an Eastern European who doesn't even possess the requisite linguistic chops?

Oswald was a native English speaker. Full stop. 

That fact alone( plus the mastoidectomy) renders all the other exotica moot...

The fact that the practically all the " exotica" consists of wilful distortions and sleight of hand renders the whole sorry gerrymandered absurdity completely moot..

About the mootiest moot since John Butler went round to Sanibel's leading dyslexic purveyor of S and M paraphernalia and asked to be fitted up in a Spanish Moot...

If Baggins and Fezzo ever decide to reappear I'm sorely tempted to wrap a tape measure round my head and go 13 Inch Heading...

I think after 20 plus years and countless false accusations and snide insinuations they owe everyone an explanation...

Just how exactly did that black marker line happen to appear on the infamous " Missing Tooth" photo? And then there's the Bronx Zoo HARVEY schnozzle AND the Frankenstein Oswald to explain...

Kowalski's remark must have sent every fucking irony meter in the Western Hemisphere into overload!!!

The sheer hypocrisy and lack of self awareness is absolutely mind blowing...

I wonder if Hargrove will ever reappear.

If he has any ounce of integrity he should...

After spending over two decades as Armstrongs pitch man and carnival Barker in chief I think it's not unreasonable to expect  him to answer a few pertinent questions...and apologise to all the people he insulted 

Especially after all the accusations and insinuations...how many times did he label the "disbelievers" disinformation agents??

Look through the threads , at the scurrilous accusations he made,  the abuse he heaped upon Greg in particular...

And others too...

If he genuinely believed in the theory, if he really thought it would bring us all closer to the truth ( the empirical truth.i hasten to add) I wouldn't have cared all that much....but when it became painfully obvious he was trafficking in out and out falsehoods...the magic tooth photo really fucking blew me away...

How unscrupulous must someone be? To tamper so blatantly with evidence...

I actually feel sorry for Fezzo, despite his outrageously disrespectful behaviour...he was a true believer who got suckered... wasting years of his life making spreadsheets tracking the movements of a fictional character...

He would have been better off learning Klingon..

Or making a spreadsheet tracking Bilbo Baggins' bowel movements...

It's funny in a really dark way...to read them squealing about disinformation agents and faked evidence.... while they were spreading all kinds of shite and using manipulated evidence and faked photos to spread it...

Baggins was no different to some slick hustler who preys on the demoralised and the disenfranchised... offering them the key to immortality etc etc etc

H and L was a secular religious cult ..

Alex wrote:H and L was a secular religious cult ..

I heard or read somewhere that one characteristic of cults is their members' strong and open belief in things that to outsiders would look crazy. Publicly expressing crazy-sounding beliefs is a way of expressing their devotion to the group.

In this case, they are sure that JFK was killed as the result of a conspiracy. But they have a problem - millions of other people share that belief. If you've got an inner urge to stand out from the crowd, what do you do? You identify with the most far-fetched version of that belief.

Shooting a guy in a slow-moving, open-topped car is too easy. You know what we need? We need to make shooting the guy in the car really complicated and unlikely. I think I've got it!

For years, the gunman had a doppelganger, and his mother had a doppelganger, and immediately after shooting that guy in the car, one of each set of doppelgangers vanished from the face of the earth! I believe!

There was a team of surgeons who secretly intercepted the guy in the car after he had been shot, and altered his wounds for no good reason! I believe!

There was a huge team of conspirators who intercepted all the dozens of people who filmed and photographed the guy getting shot in the slow-moving, open-topped car, and then snatched all their films and photos, and altered them! I believe!

Of course, that explanation doesn't apply to everyone. Some people are just paranoid.

Hargrove is back.

And he has copied and pasted the same old Bolton Ford stuff that was dealt with four years ago. Here's my reply (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26056-evidence-for-harvey-and-lee-please-debate-the-specifics-right-here-dont-just-claim-someone-else-has-debunked-it/?do=findComment&comment=442263):

He's back! I'm glad to see that Jim is alive and well. I had visions of a worried-looking, out-of-breath John Armstrong running down the street, with the Benny Hill music playing in the background, being chased by Jim Hargrove who is shaking his fist and shouting "Come back, Armstrong! I wasted twenty years of my life hawking your nonsense!"

As for Bolton Ford, this isn't the first time Jim has copied and pasted that particular passage from Scripture. He did so four years ago, when it was replied to here:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1408-the-bolton-ford-incident

If anyone on the planet still has even the slightest interest in Jim's long-debunked theory, they should check out these links:

- https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/f13-debunked
- https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1588-harvey-lee-links-to-alternative-explanations
- http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/search/label/Harvey%20%26%20Lee
- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/2oswalds.htm
- http://22november1963.org.uk/john-armstrong-harvey-and-lee-theory

The main problem with the long-term double-doppelganger scheme is that it could never have happened. Now that Jim has reappeared, perhaps he could answer the question I asked earlier:

The scheme was unnecessarily complex, expensive and inefficient. The possibility of setting it up would surely not even have occurred to the masterminds. The 'Harvey and Lee' theory's preposterous long-term double-doppelganger scheme could never have been implemented.

The masterminds had a much simpler, cheaper, and more efficient way to achieve their goal: find an American with a knack for languages, get him up to speed in Russian, then send him off to Moscow. Here's the question the 'Harvey and Lee' faithful have been unable to answer:

Why did the masterminds not do this?

Let's see what he comes up with. Will it, by any chance, be more cut-and-paste Scripture?

I've just started a new thread about this.

It's absolutely disgraceful in my opinion. 

Not to mention pathetic.

He doesn't learn, he doesn't want to learn, he doesn't care...why should he?

He's a salesman, pure and simple, masquerading as a " researcher". He's obviously decided that " debate" is one of his best sales tactics. It allows him to regurgitate the same old spam, claiming he's posting " evidence"

He tries to frame the debate in a way that allows him to exploit the  paranoid anti government mindset of his target demographic...

Honestly it's a fucking scandal. He shouldn't be permitted to pull this shit again. Turning a so called research forum into a recruiting ground for a cult..

His tactics are despicable... attempting to turn any reasonable questions upside down, while attempting to tarnish the reputations of the questioners.... insinuating they are some sort of sinister disinfo agents..

Or trying to play the martyr... 

I can't believe people are so fucking gullible. I honestly can't.

How can anyone buy this shit? 

He's been hawking the same old trash for over 20 years..

Jeremy, you know how much I respect you. Along with RC-D, Mark S and Jonathan Cohen you do an absolutely masterful job of revealing both the chicanery and the complete intellectual bankruptcy of the H and L fantasy...

Applying the coup de grace, and doing so with wit and panache... finishing the job Greg and others started...

But this time I think the best plan of action is to ignore his taunts and jibes...

You know far better than I how he attempts to twist these " debates"...attempting to exploit your honourable intentions , trying to distort them , before trying to use them to further his own thoroughly dishonourable agenda...

It's really sickening and demoralising to watch him in action.... twisting and turning, using every underhanded trick he can think of, while churning out the same old crap , almost word for word...

Fuck him and his hollow posturing, the crack doppelganger squad, from the wannabe Swami downwards, are clearly bereft of ideas.... they've been reduced to pumping out the same old sewage...Bolton Ford?????

If I was in your tin foil hat and cardigan and sweater combo I'd zero in on the missing tooth photo.... and the other attempted " enhancements"

You know as well as I do how he tries goading the " disbelievers"...treat him with the contempt he deserves... don't let him wriggle away.... like the goateed worm he is...keep on the photos, Norwood's shameful " essay" and the alchemy they attempted to perform, the preposterous central claim and the mastoidectomy...

Show him up for the unprincipled charlatan he is... hopefully the other members will eventually realise he's been making fools out of them....

Butler just doesn't get it.

I agree Vinny...in fact he couldn't get " it" if " it" was a giant rubber inflatable Lee HARVEY Oswald doll, complete with Billy Lovelady facemask, floating serenely round his tin foil hatted head, with bells and whistles blaring and a great big sign saying " Get It" stuck to his Loveladyified forehead...

His latest excretion was quite frankly bizarre, and mindbendingly surreal...

Actually I think he may be suffering from an as yet uncategorised psychopathology... Multiple Oswald Syndrome. An unnatural preoccupation with phantasmagoric polyglot Hungarian doppelgangers...

Who knows? Maybe John Butler's name will indeed grace the pages of medical dictionaries..for something other than chronic flatulence and an unedifying fixation with public nudity...

He's obsessed with fake Oswalds!! He's got them popping up everywhere!!

Two in Russia, one showing up at Bolton Ford... A couple more trombone wielding Oswalds playing with Clay Bertrand's Dixieland Swingers? Why not?

A conga line of fake Oswalds in various facemasks snaking up along Carondolet Street? Or better still a Thompson sub machine gun totin' Guy Banister herding a gaggle of obstreperous Oswalds and their injudicious Juddufki partners( let us not forget that according to Trine Day author Ed Haslam there was a " second" Juddufki too!!)... making them march up, two by two, the gangplank to the giant CIA ark moored in Lake Ponchartrain...To mingle with the pink elephants and the hermaphroditic purple crocodiles

The only reason Butler's ridiculous nonsense is tolerated by the good burghers of 13 Inch Headville is because he is a stout advocate of the H and L fantasy...

Before he swore allegiance to the fiery eyed Sauron of all things doppelgangery he was ridiculed mercilessly...a an rightly so. His so called " work" is not only laughable, but it's an insult to the many serious researchers and historians, past and present, who have worked on this case. He has JFK smiling and waving after he's been shot , multiple times in the back and the head!! Not to mention his fucking ludicrous attempts at photo analysis....

It's the utter lack of self awareness I find incredible...these are reasonably intelligence adults, most of whom enjoyed reasonably successful careers... they spend their time discussing Fake films, fake Oswalds, fake Marguerites, the 17 year old Dubya sauntering through the Plaza , UFOs, Mozart's reincarnation describing the vampirising of the vortex Mahler brought over from Vienna, wizened ex SS desperados, Corsican gunmen a go go, fake bodies, cackling surgeons stowed away in the hold of Airforce One etc etc etc... and yet they wonder why the " lamestream media" lambast conspiracy theorists??

I've said it before and no doubt i'll say it again " Armstrong save us all"