Kharkiv is so lovely In October

Thread for information regarding Marina and her vacation to Kharkov (Kharkiv) and any details about possible training to go to US.

Distance from Kharkiv to Vinnytsia and the Winniza Spy School was 458 miles, a 9 hr drive one way.
Of course the nice thing about Vinnytsia was an air base nearby, and a flight from Kharkiv to Bar was only an hour and a half.
(Drive takes route through Kyiv, largest city in Ukraine from Kharkiv, the second largest)

Also Marina's Aunt Polina and Uncle Yuri weren't even in Kharkiv when Marina arrives and are not to return for around a week. 
Some one is there to tend to Marina tho ... could be the trainers came to her???
This would be plenty of time for training her to help the CPSU in whatever was needed and Marina felt necessary too. Willing participants are better, and books like Epstein's are filled with family and friends pressuring her to stay and then leave Russia.
Playing her like a violin. 

What other trade craft schools were available in Kharkiv in 59-61?
There was a female school in East Germany, with its location as a spying base on West Germany/wall/embassy being close by.
Would there be any other female trade craft school in the Ukraine/Eastern Russia area?
Or was Winniza the school there. (Vinnytsia)

Leningrad had the KGB trade craft school, and of course Marina takes holiday there in a Rest Home on 1960.

In Kharkiv Marina vacations for:
A. Five Days
B. Three Weeks 
C. Nearly the whole month of October 61

To be continued;


Silver and gold engraved cups and all... of course not for vodka, but White Coke.
"White Coke - Wikipedia" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Coke

Looks like she may have been working for Soviet Intelligence.

Perhaps Vinny,
It would account why she was allowed out of the country with a false defector.
Even unwittingly there would be some semblance of helping the CPSU to help yourself and husband not to mention the baby.
Or so it has been discussed at length elsewhere why the party was so inclinded to grant her anything.
Connections, as only 2% of the population in 1965 were Communist Party regulars.
Her aunts, uncles, and such were likely in the two percenters club.

Don't confuse delays with scrutiny of her travel request or it's review. They had a large contingent of ready-made immigrants/students/defectors to fill all travel slots to America. She would naturally be fit into the flow as best possible, which is why I don't buy the protesting by her and Lee about their wait.

What is required here is any story, sighting, missing time etc that she had means, motives to attend a spy school or have been briefed over that Kharkiv vacation, a week to train for her role in what was an exchange for free travel.

She immediately gives her address to Russia Embassy in US upon arrival, just one example a quid pro quo relationship existed.

Ukraine travel was a red flag.
Not being with her aunt and uncle for at least a week another red flag.
Her being granted travel... etc.

Looking for more of these red flags.
Cheers

Ed.Ledoux wrote:Perhaps Vinny,
It would account why she was allowed out of the country with a false defector.
Even unwittingly there would be some semblance of helping the CPSU to help yourself and husband not to mention the baby.
Or so it has been discussed at length elsewhere why the party was so inclinded to grant her anything.
Connections, as only 2% of the population in 1965 were Communist Party regulars.
Her aunts, uncles, and such were likely in the two percenters club.

Don't confuse delays with scrutiny of her travel request or it's review. They had a large contingent of ready-made immigrants/students/defectors to fill all travel slots to America. She would naturally be fit into the flow as best possible, which is why I don't buy the protesting by her and Lee about their wait.

What is required here is any story, sighting, missing time etc that she had means, motives to attend a spy school or have been briefed over that Kharkiv vacation, a week to train for her role in what was an exchange for free travel.

She immediately gives her address to Russia Embassy in US upon arrival,  just one example a quid pro quo relationship existed.

Ukraine travel was a red flag.
Not being with her aunt and uncle for at least a week another red flag.
Her being granted travel... etc.

Looking for more of these red flags.
Cheers

Keep at it, Ed.

Also any insights by anyone, including our resident Soviet spook specialist @alex_wilson.

So... the aunt pays for the return trip, but she and husband are not even home to greet their neice (which seems awfully rude!) - instead, they "hire" distant relatives to in essence, look after her for a week - which she spends like the rest of the vacation,  "resting and eating" - as if she she could not have done either back in Minsk - or indeed at some other "holiday" destination.

Yes, the fake town was some considerable distance from Kharkov but she could have been flown there for the first week then gone to Aunt's place debriefings? 

Who the fuck goes to the Ukraine for a vacation? Or was it paradise compared to Minsk? I have no idea. It just seems too convenient that she is in the Ukraine where immersion training in US life is available just as Oswald is starting preparations to take her back to the US with him. 

It reminds of Oswald's bullshit brig time - which coincidently went for the same length of time as Russian language courses and immersion training offered by the military.

I should add that my gut feeling for a long time has been that there were elements of Oswald's travels and stay in the Soviet Union which I believe were by mutual cooperation - either between intel agencies or at a bureaucratic/government level or both.

Maybe something along the lines that Oswalds trip to SU was for the Russian Intelligence's training benefits and Marina's trip to USA was for US Intelligence training exercise.
SAFE, no actual spying or spies but easy targets to spy on and let subordinates get some seat time staking out the couple. shadowing, bugging & so on.
Good thinking Greg.

Good stuff Ed. I'd have to do some research to refresh my memory but I'm almost certain I recall reading something about an espionage school operating in Kharkiv . 

If my memory is correct it started operating in the latter part of 1944. It was what was euphemistically called " a closed facility"( the personnel living close by in one of the equally ominously named " closed cities/ villages")

These facilities were referred to by number , in the handful of top level reports/ ukazes that discussed such highly sensitive topics. None appeared on maps, even military maps and they were cocooned inside any number of security cordons.

I'm pretty certain the school in Kharkiv specialised in double agents. German speaking NKVD personnel who were then inserted behind German lines, often masquerading as field grade officers( leutnants, hauptmenn etc, although there was at least one authenticated episode of an NKVD agent successfully posing as an Oberst ( colonel) managing to inveigel himself onto the staff of a frontline panzer regiment, stationed on a particularly critical section of the front)

Although plagued by the usual crop of mythomaniacs, fantasists and traffickers in disinformazia, most notoriously the infamous Operation Long jump, that allegedly took place during the Tehran Summit in 1943. Supposedly an NKVD double agent managed to infiltrate and eventually foil a high level SS/ Gestapo plot to kidnap the Big Three- Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt. With the help of the Axis spy ring( that undoubtedly existed) they were then to be smuggled out, via the remaining German controlled territory in the then crumbling Southern Russian Front, then onto Berlin to be used as bargaining chips. These schools undoubtedly existed

Like the similarly fantastic sounding plot to kidnap the Pope ( peddled by none other than Karl " Wolfy" Wolff, Himmler's long time chief of staff , who, after his promotion/ demotion ( depending on the source), sent to command what remained of the puppet Italian Social Republic in Northern Italy, negotiated with OSS chief Dulles ( who was unilaterally flouting the otherwise rigourously enforced Unconditional Surrender order, insisted upon by the ailing Roosevelt to appease his Eastern Ally who was , with some justification as it happens, paranoid the Western Allies were angling to cut a separate deal with the Nazis) to end the war in Italy. 
Ever the consummate host Dulles then arranged for his " prisoner" ( Himmler's right hand man who ,famously accompanied the Reichsfuhrer SS to a hurriedly arranged mass execution, Himmler being eager to witness one first hand during a visit to the newly conquered Eastern territory in late autumn 1941. After watching 100 or so Russian POWs/ Jews being shot at close range, noticing his bosses face blanching, turning a sickly shade of green, and spotting the blood/ brain matter splattered on his sleeve, Wolff steadied his boss, who was close to fainting, ushering him away. Wolff was at the very epicentre of the bureaucratic machine of death, as Himmler's chief adjutant and charter member of the innermost of the many, sometimes competing concentric power circles, focused on Hitler personally( Although Himmler, Der Treue Heinrich , my loyal Heinrich,  as Hitler referred to him, was not part of the FuhrersF intimate social circle, centred in the Berghof, Wolff was. He appears regularly in Eva Brauns home movies, including one infamous sequence taken on the sun deck. Shot in early spring 1942, mere months before his assassination it features Heydrich joking with Wolff , Himmler and an SA obergruppenfuhrer who's name escapes me. ) to visit a sympathetic doctor, who diagnosed " nervous exhaustion!" Thoughtfully Dulles made sure Wolff recovered in some style.. providing him with a luxury yacht. Likewise Dulles made sure WolffsW name was conspicuously absent from the lists and affidavits then in the process of being drawn up for Nuremberg...

Like the spurious Papal Plot, Operation Long jump was nothing more than a product of skilled manipulators and/or over active imaginations, catering to post war appetite for lurid sensationalism. ODESSA and the later Boys From Brazil, covens of conspiring Nazis, impeccably dressed in their white suits, skulking in steamy Amazonian jungles , or lurking out amidst the sand blasted sierras of Paraguay, or most famously of all lounging around in luxurious air conditioned Colonial era villas , in the more salubrious parts of Buenos Aires, or Bariloche, floating on oceans of Nazi gold, surrounded by phlanxes of strutting blonde haired Ubermensch, as they wait for Der Tag...

Trashy boilerplate fiction , interspersed with Soviet disinformation..

Despite all the bullshit the schools Ed is talking about most certainly existed. In the latter part of the war, right through to the formative years of what became known as the Cold War, the Soviets had highly sophisticated deception programmes. Swamping the West with wave after wave of defectors. Telling them exactly what they wanted to hear. Ultimately infiltrating the very highest levels of the West German government. Most notoriously the Gehlen Organisation that was riddled with double agents from its inception. 

Regarding the specific case of Marina Prusakova, there's absolutely no doubt she was involved with the security organs. 

To some extent.

However just to label her a  " KGB" agent is way too simplistic. The equivalent of saying the CIA killed JFK. Such a clumsy rubric, and one size fits all mentality are far too indelicate to dissect, or at least attempt to, such a sensitive multi faceted organism.

Her background, her incredible degree of freedom of movement, relative to her contemporaries, drifting, apparently at will, from Leningrad to Moscow, hobnobbing with foreigners....at the time, in the late 50s it was a criminal offence, punishable by up to 10 years of hard labour ( it's article 59(I think) of the recently updated Soviet Criminal Code) for " excessively praising American democracy" 

To associate openly with foreigners? An American? Absolutely no way. I can't emphasise this enough. Every ex Soviet citizen, ex KGB, GRU, Red Army, senior diplomats, high level defectors, people who were, living and working in the Soviet Union, I've spoken to were emphatic on this point. 

To behave the way Marina behaved was impossible without official permission. Full stop. Initially I think she was used as some sort of honey trap. Blackmailing politicians etc, filled with vodka and desensitized by the fluttering caresses of a pretty young girl, with their ego well and truly fluffed and their guard( amongst other things) well and truly down, they were encouraged to be as indiscreet as possible, after all what beautiful 19 year old girl isn't turned on by some disgusting puce faced lump of over perspiring lard dribbling into their ear about the latest NATO deployments or the next generation of fighter jets or tank armour? The last act of these sordid all too common bedroom farces usually involved an outraged " uncle" or " brother" bursting in, followed by a sympathetic  local who offered to smooth the ruffled feathers in return for a few trifling details about the office/ ship etc , the poor sod, now reduced to a remorseful heap is usually only to happy to oblige...

In Soviet Russia, in the late 50s, the notion of Marina, by outward appearances at least, a relatively unsophisticated provincial teenage " chemistry student" attending soirées with American defectors and foreign ambassadors, is as unbelievable as Billy Lovelady turning up to work at the Depository with his own forehead firmly in place, and sans any facemask...

Marina Nicolaevyna Prusakova was, to whatever extent, involved with the state security organs. This is not Conspiratorial make believe or fake doppelganger science: its a simple fact.

However this is where the problems start. This undoubted fact gets twisted and distorted out of all recognition. Thus Marina, and by extension Lee, get transformed into cartoonish stereotypes.

All the familiar tin foil hat fantasies we know and love.

If you would be kind enough to give me a week or so , Ed and Greg, I'll do some reading, try to refresh my memory. Great work again Ed! Everything you and Greg have said makes perfect sense. 

I'm pretty certain there was indeed some sort of intelligence training facility operating in the vicinity of Kharkiv. If my memory serves me correctly it dealt with potential penetration agents, I'm not sure if the trainees could be classed as illegals. Certainly during the war these were straight penetrations, dropped behind German lines. The vast majority native, or near native German speakers( Communist émigrés or  recruited from the Baltic States etc)

Some of Marina's correspondence, with her " friends" and especially with the embassy in Washington ( discussing Alek being sent " books" etc) leads me to suspect she received some sort of intelligence training. If not fluent in English she most certainly understood far more than she let on.

Her situation with Oswald presented several possible avenues for Soviet intel to pursue. 

My guess is she would have been allowed to leave with Oswald as part of a quid pro quo arrangement. Long term, a kind of dormant sleeper...her relationship with the White Russian community for example would have been of great interest to her putative handlers. 

After the assassination all interest would have been dropped. One of the keys to understanding the Soviet mindset of the time is their awareness of the vast American superiority. Sputnik, Tsarbomba represented nothing more than a coat of paint covering the rusted hulk beneath. 

As Nikita Sergeyvich said " we like to stir the bee's hive up once in a while" 

Attempting to communize the ongoing anti colonial/ wars of national liberation in Asia, Africa and South/ Central America..usin u their vastly superior humint gathering network, the frighteningly effective East German secret police apparatus to stir up trouble for the Americans and their Imperialist allies...that was Soviet policy at this point in time.

From the Soviet perspective Richard Case Nagell's beguiling yarn reeks of sheer fantasy. Of course ( unless you are someone like Ralph Cinque, blessed with almost preternatural powers) it's the height of folly to speak in absolutes about anything, nevermind intelligence operations, but taking the very basic fundamentals of tradecraft into consideration, and knowing how contemporary Soviet intelligence officers/ diplomats operated, the thought of the " KGB" or whomever hiring a unpredictable loose cannon like Nagell to kill an American, either in a third country ( in this case a virtual client state) or America itself? ItsI absolutely ludicrous. 

The Soviets may well have heard whispers on the wind, the intel grapevine was an incredibly sensitive organism...

I've recently apologised to Greg, for not contributing as much as I could, with your permission Ed, the last thing I want to do is to interfere with your work, this might well be a great opportunity to start making amends. Get off my lazy fucking arse and contribute to the genuine paradigm shifting research that's ensured ROKCs enviable reputation...

Apologies too for the various digressions..

Great fucking work again Ed. IMHO the thread on Neely St , a few years ago, over on the 13 Inch Head forum was one of the very finest research threads idI ever seen.

Give me a week or two to do some serious reading. But at first glance I'd have to say you're on the right track.

Along with the work on Oswald, the dismantling of the 2FLRE fable, I really think this forum could provide the definitive answer to the Oswald in Russia saga.

My guess is Oswald was sent to the Soviet Union in a semi legal capacity. Perhaps with another mission piggybacked on his ostensible role as some sort of courier. His background provided the perfect cover to allow him to play the part of the disaffected American Marine, sickened by the ongoing injustice at home and the Imperial excesses abroad.

ImhI Greg has come the closest to unravelling his true role, not only that but putting it in the correct context.

Great work again Ed.

Give me a couple of weeks , I'll speak to my friend Sergei and look out a few Russian books I have that deal with similar topics...

Amazing article Vinny.
Marina Contacts US embassy end of May, by August she is cleared by American services for entry.
Roughly three months.
Fast tracked.

Thanks Alex,
Appreciate your interest, and agree the Nutters claims we think everyone is CIA or KGB is childish.

The WW2 era school is something to learn more about, as well as the cold war Coca-Cola cities (plural).
Marina's vacation in that area in October when Schools are in session could be a coincidence but it's too good to be ignored.
Historically the area near Vinnytsia had a special draw for some reason.
It had an Nazi Eastern Wehrmacht headquarters.
Colorfully named Werwolf (Wehrwolf) in the Wervolf Forest of Vinnytsia. The airfield nearby a part of the draw to the sector in 1942-43.
There were the purges.
The Germans dug up dead mass grave of Ukrainians to embarrass
Russia, Russia would do the same to Germany.
A sorted affair. Each side guilty.





Looking forward to anything Mrs. Oswald had to do on vacation in Kharkov.
Ukraine was cold war mecca for foreigners and spying on them.
Jews seemed to feel no pressures from authorities other than being kicked out of the country, so flow of religious materials was enormous.
Others brought US books etc and something like 98% got through.
This was throughout cold war.
Ukraine is an fascinating country.

Cheers,
Ed

More bits on Kharkiv vacation destinations, jewish mass graves and more tourists hot spots.
Just kidding, here are some bits to see tho.

Vinny wrote:

Fantastic article Vinny. Is there a copy of this in its entirety anywhere?

Fantastic Thread Ed!

Who was there in Kharkiv to meet Marina and be with her for a week is not disclosed.
Distant relatives or paid help.... they aren't named, making the relationship questionable. (IMO),
cheers.

Mick_Purdy wrote:

Vinny wrote:

Fantastic article Vinny. Is there a copy of this in its entirety anywhere?

 Will search around and try to find if it is available Mick.

THX Mick!

So here is a slew of folks she has never heard of in relation to her Ukraine sojourn, or aunt Polina?

AUNT Polina who sent Marina and her sister money when they were younger



"MARINA PRUSSAKOVA APRIL 1961;
OSWALD: “April 1, 1961 to April 30, 1961. We are going steady and I decide I must have her, she puts me off so on April 15, 1961 I propose, she accepts.”
April 31, 1961. After a 7 day delay at marraige beaure because of my unusual passport they allow us to regista as man & wife two of Marina’s girlfriends act as bridesmaid: We are married at her aunt’s home we have a dinner reception for about 20 friends and neborios who wish us happiness (in spite of my origin and accept) which was in general rather disquiting to my Russian since for. are very rare in the soviet union even tourist. After an evening of eating and drinking in which uncle Woser started a fight and the fuse blow on an overloaded circite we take our leave and walk the 15 minutes to our home. We lived near each other – at midnight we were home.
On April 31, 1961, OSWALD married Marina Prussakova, a 19-year-old Minsk pharmaceutical worker. Born July 17, 1941, Marina Prussakova was the illegitimate daughter of Klavdiya Prussakova, a 23-year-old laboratory worker whose lover was arrested by Stalin and sent to a prison camp from which he never returned (he reportedly belonged to a former Czarist officer group). Marina Oswald told this researcher:
I never knew who my father was. I know that where my mother was, there was a political prisoner, she could have had an affair with the man. But even my relatives wouldn’t tell me. I have no idea if he was a Czarist.
That’s just a speculation of writers.
Klavdiya Prussakova died in 1957, when Marina Prussakova was 16 years old. The stepfather of Marina Prussakova, Alexander Medvedev, refused to fight the Nazi invaders, and was interned in a prison camp. Marina Oswald told this researcher: “For what reason he was there, it was mess, I don’t know.”Marina Prussakova was raised by her grandmother, Tatyana Prussakova, a former Czarist. One of her daughters had made frequent trips to the United States. Marina Prussakova was baptized and was discharged from the Communist youth group, Komsomol, after she announced her intention to go to the United States. She was not a Communist Party member. [Johnson Lee & Marina pp. 13, 156, 18, 2]"

And here is a bit Aj Weberman did on this, way back in the Nodule days.

"Marina Oswald told Norman Mailer that Irina, a neighbor, set her up to be raped by a member of a soccer team. Although she was not raped, she had to visit an institute for venereal and contagious diseases. Irina then set her up to be raped by an Afghan “client.” The FBI released this highly deleted document on May 6, 1964:

“Bureau Informant (Deleted), a most sensitive and reliable source, advised that Irina Alekseyevana Nikhaylovich of 43 Dzershinkiy Street, Apartment 4, Kharkov, USSR (Deleted).” [FBI 105-82555-3578 page 2 and 3 entirely w/h] Marina Oswald told this researcher: “I did not have affair with the Afghan diplomat. In a week I find out who is who. Only one person knew about that. I was raped by this guy.” Counter-Intelligence was aware of Irina Alekseyevana Nikhaylovich. A 1958 HT LINGUAL Intercept Item 58J18AT “This item was written by one Irina Aleksayevna Mikhaylovich of Kharkov, USSR, (deleted) who mentions seeing one Marina. As Marina is known to have an aunt in Kharkov named Poline Mikhaylovich, it is considered possible that Irina Mikhaylovich (deleted) may be related to Marina Prussakova.” [CIA Memo 5.1.64 HT LINGUAL Items Relating to OSWALD case] The CIA reported OSWALD had the name “Polina Mikhaylovich, also spelled Mikaylov, residing at V’ezd Trinklers, House 7, Apartment 5, in Kharkov (Deleted).” [CIA 1593-1121-A]

Marina Oswald’s associate, Ruth Paine, testified that Marina Oswald “spoke of having met some young Cuban students who were traveling in Russia, or studying in Minsk, or both…” Marina Oswald was reportedly a sexually active individual and reportedly told Priscilla Johnson that she slept with her old boyfriend after her marriage to OSWALD. [ Marina & Lee p129]
One unnamed CIA component produced the document,

“Indications of Intelligence Involvement by Marina Oswald.” These indications included:

(1) Mystery of fatherless patronymic. Could be deliberate to obscure a cover-damaging father.

(2) Refusal to identify certain individuals in her story, while identifying and giving information on others. Cover story incomplete or forgotten?

(3) Complete uncheckableness of her story.

This CIA component concluded:

“The great number of discrepancies, unlikeliness, departures from known Soviet practice, omissions, etc. within Marina’s story (as well as between her story and other information) points very strongly to the probability that she at least knew about and played along with KGB interest, if she was not actually recruited.” This was total bullshit, just another attempt to link OSWALD to the KGB in a fashion advantageous to CIA. Marina Oswald told this researcher: Never, ever in my life was I knowingly involved with intelligence. If I was interviewed by some intelligence people, intelligence people in Embassy, I have no idea who they were. If Priscilla Johnson was with the government, I would have no idea. I was not told. I never worked for Soviet or American intelligence. I told Priscilla everything I know or suspect. The conclusions in her book are not mine."

When questioned about these names Marina fudged.

Why did Marina not recall her almost being raped in Kharkov? Nor the neighbor whom set her up with a rapist, and Irina being the relative whom takes care of Marina whilst Uncle Yuri and Aunt Polina are absent ....cheers
Ed

I'm following the names she was questioned about in regards to the Afghanistan Diplomat rape story.

VAVA

OLCHEKA

MARUSYA

OLYA

are they also relatives in Kharkov and share a name Mikhaylovich / MIKHAILOVICH / Mikhaylov.

Any suggestions as to whom these other questioned names are, and what they might represent (what they represent as a series of questions put to Marina,.. and regarding the diplomat story which the question dances around, forger her answer ... Belarusian vs Russian naming convention misdirection)

Dymitruk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nwDBVX38N-sEtK0-lNYxVaRFt4kJK_f3/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19cvcf0ZHuxH0Wsi-1gd-KklBJTDa-gW_/view?usp=sharing

Marina Oswald
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1BTBIKdO5u1XsbYT2bCaNRdn4bPw9wD2M?usp=sharing
Do not say I did not warn you ....

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt.

Thanks Bart!!

Of course she, Dymitruk, was a Dallas or Ft worth resident yes?

I would like to see the kissing cousin, Valentine picture if anyone has it handy. P3.
Then there are two more Alexander and Vladimir whom she doesn't mention any amorous interest.
Quite a posse in Kharkov Marina has.





Thx MB!

Regarding Mrs. Zeger, her traces are run for her apparent maiden name,“Ana Dmitruk”: Name Check Request – Ana Dmitruk, Oswald 201 File (201-289248)/NARA Record Number: 104-10006-10114. Note that the attached documents identify a woman who was born in the 1880s and couldn’t have been Ana. The identified woman may have been Ana’s mother.

The odds are strong that Ana is related to Pavel Dymitruk, whose ex-wife Lydia took in Marina Oswald after the Oswalds left the USSR and arrived in Texas virtually penniless: Memo from James Angleton to Director of Naval Intelligence, 5/19/64, Russ Holmes Work File/NARA Record Number: 104-10423-10255. Although unsigned by Angleton, the format and typeface reveals it as an Angleton memorandum; see this 2/14/64 Angleton memo for comparison.

Lydia was born in Russia, a citizen of Belgium and lived in Dallas up till August 62... when she moved to Ft Worth

This was sent to Deb Conway (JFK LANCER)



I think 1958 was a good year







CHEERS!!
Ed

So the gangs all there.
OLCHEKA was having a fifth birthday so born in '53 to Irina (?)

Marina and VAVA helps Irina with money and so does MARUSYA and OLYA, thus they are older or not children(?)

Or is the prostitution ring and Irina runs the bordello?
Sorry, hard not to see this as such... I try not to play into that angle but sometimes it's gotta be looked at ...
ED