(Un) Altered film proves Sandy is simple

Professor Larsen's 1st rule of  Alterationism  - If you are determined not to prove anything you can make up any old shite and call it  " proof"

William of ROKCams*  Tinny  " What appears anomalous to the untrained eye is usually perfectly  explicable to the trained eye" 

To paraphrase  the  Immortal  William  Blake  " If a fool persists in mistaking his folly for wisdom he will remain a fool. For merely believing that folly is wisdom does not make the believer wise"

After his attempt to  " prove" the so called  Magical Money  Order was fake( and  persisting with his erroneous claim despite a series of comical blunders), after his triumphant foray into the  highly specialised world of military dentistry and forensic orthodontics ( after spending a mere 3 weeks " studying" the subjects he felt sufficiently  emboldened to dismiss the professional opinions of 3 experts with decades worth of experience) to " prove" that  the  elusive  LEE Oswald  was  missing a tooth ( or was it  teeth?) ended in humiliation and mutual recrimination. Not to mention the  discovery of the  obvious enhancement of a  key piece of " evidence ", namely a blatant attempt at forgery , a clearly visible  black marker line  ,which  bleeds onto the lower lip, obscuring the front tooth  LEE Oswald  supposedly  lost . ( something , incidentally, none of these courageous  troof  seekers have  had the guts to  comment upon,  let alone apologies for misleading their fellow  " researchers ")And  after his  magisterial  display  in the  " Stripling " debate, not to mention  numerous condescending,  patronising  remarks , his stubbornness,  arrogance and  clumsy attempts at feigning an air of superiority ( predicated upon his claims of a near genius level  IQ) the erudite  Professor Larsen once again descends from the  lofty heights of his self regard  , to  share the  bountiful  fruits of his soaring intellect..

Along with his fellow  sage ( although some would argue he is more of an overstuffed  turkey), John Butler,  the man who has single handedly transformed  ignorance into an Olympic  sport,  the venerable  Professor has decided to prove,  once and for all,  that the  Zapruder film is fake..

With one luminous  spurt he will put an end to almost  30 years ,of sometimes  bitter,  internecine  turmoil 

How did he prove these anomalies ( so called  selective blurring) were contrary to the laws of physics ? A series of groundbreaking  equations? Utilising his profound knowledge of 1960s photographic/ film making  technology? Carefully  demonstrating,  via exhaustive  analysis and practical research,  how  these anomalies couldn't be the result of other, non suspicious  occurrences  ( copying  etc)???

Don't be fucking ridiculous...are you some kind of lone nutist? Or are you simply  too dumb to understand the  venerable  Professor's  transcendent  brilliance?

He simply  said so. Assertion equals proof to these Alice in  Wonderlands of  troof..

Anything can mean nothing and nothing practically anything. 

You see Professor Larsen is too smart to bother with such trifling  details!

By merely stating something  contradicts the laws of physics then the anomalies in question contradict the aforementioned  laws...its not the Professor's fault if you are too dense to grasp his subtle  genius..

The Zapruder film is fake because  Professor  SANDY LARSEN says so.

Likewise  his illustrious  colleague, Academician Butler  doesn't have to prove a single word he says. 

No sirree 

He is free to make up the wildest most illogical shite imaginable,  making all sorts of fantastical  claims...its up to the  lone nutists to disprove the arguments he hasn't made..

Why should  Professor Larsen  demean  himself? He's a bonafide  genius  doncha know!, if he says the film is fake  then it's fake. He doesn't have to waste his precious time trying to explain it to the  ignorati,  who are probably too dumb to understand it anyway..

I find the whole subject of alterationism  self destructive,  self  defeating and utterly pointless. That's not  fair.  The  subject itself is by no means  ridiculous,  and  almost certainly some  evidence was altered ( the  BYP in particular)

Rather its what passes,  or rather,  what is passed off as " proof" by some of these individuals..THAT'S  what I find almost embarrassingly  ridiculous. 

The ignorance is almost matched by the  arrogance. The condescension,   or the  almost  comical  attemps to sound condescending , a regressive approach  combined with an almost manic stubbornness and an absolute refusal even to countenance  error.

Sandy Larsen has proved the Z film is fake,  just as John Butler has proved that the  Moorman  Polaroid was altered in less than  2 and a half hours, and  Phil Willis had an amazing  extra long leg...and JFK sat waving and smiling after being shot at least once in the head and back..

If you disagree  you're obviously a lone nutist,  or propagandist or else you are too dumb to understand. 

And if you  dare to  complain about the  mistruths,  the misrepresentations,  the insinuations and  attempted slurs well those courageous  troof seekers and  fucking  hypocrites  will most likely go running  like  little bitches,  telling tales to headmaster..

I  mean no disrespect  personally  Ed, at least you have the guts and the decency to explain the thinking behind your argument. You've  done some excellent work,  however on this occasion I  disagree with you.  but  disagreeing with you in no way diminishes the  respect I have for you as a researcher. 

My problem is with these fucking mooks.  Who don't seem to understand basic  English.  Labouring under the apparent misapprehension that merely asserting  something is the same as proving something..

The more  outlandish the belief the more unpleasant the believer..that most definitely seems to be the case with  this pair of absolute fucking  roasters..

Their notion of  research is  more akin to urban mythology. Basing  your  " conclusions " on unwarranted  speculation,  hearsay or anecdotal reports..

Or out and out  bullshit. 

These two clowns bring the whole subject into disrepute.  And  apart from Jeremy,  Jonathan and occasionally a couple of others,  no one else seems to give a fuck. 

They seem content enough keeping their heads safely buried in the sand,  oohing and ahhing in  giddy rapture as they  carefully  strategise  how to deal with lone nutters if the SBT is  finally disproved...

Round and round they go...

Every step forward is immediately followed by at least two in reverse..I mean for  Armstrong's sake  some  folk are still discussing  Juddufki!! 

* William of ROKCam was a  famous  19th century  Australian  bushranger/ poet/ philosopher  , according to legend he was a distant descendant of  William of Ockham 

ROKCams  tinny being a Rokcification of  his illustrious  forebears  Razor..

Professor Larsen doesn't have a good track record, does he? You'd think that anyone who had hitched his wagon to the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense would be careful not to make any further dogmatic pronouncements.

There's a big difference between saying "the Zapruder film may have been altered" (or "Oswald may have been persistently impersonated") and saying "I can prove this film has been altered" (or "I can prove that Oswald spent most of his life as part of a top-secret doppelganger project"). If you're claiming to have proved something, you'll end up looking silly when someone points out why you haven't.

It does seem to come down to two things. Firstly, there's usually a lack of self-criticism ("I mean, how can I, the one and only Professor Larsen, possibly be wrong? I wear a big hat!"). Secondly and more importantly, there's a failure to understand what proof is. For people like Butler and Larsen, 'proof' seems to consist of anything that agrees with their view of how the world works.

If you've convinced yourself that secret cabals with super-human powers exist, then a trivial anomaly in a digitally manipulated copy of a copy of a copy of a tiny 8mm film frame becomes absolute proof that the film was faked by a secret cabal with super-human powers. Anything that is consistent with that world-view becomes proof of that world-view.

In Ed's thread recently, I pointed out an example of the failure to understand what proof means in a practical matter such as the JFK assassination. Douglas Horne claimed that 16 witnesses provided "simple proof" that the presidential limo stopped on Elm Street. But Horne himself provided evidence which showed precisely the opposite: more than 64 witnesses claimed that the car didn't stop but merely slowed down. Sixteen witnesses said something that matched Horne's world-view, so they must have been right. Four times that many witnesses said the opposite, so they must have been wrong.

In the real world, of course, numbers alone are only able to suggest that something is likely or unlikely to be true. They don't actually prove anything, because witnesses' recollections are often inaccurate. Horne seemed to think that numbers alone did prove something, but even then his preconceptions didn't allow him to apply that principle correctly.

This failure to understand proof is typical of Academician Butler, Professor Larsen, and all the other 'everything is a fake' believers we've seen over the years. After three decades of trying, no-one has come close to proving that the Zapruder film is a fake, or that whoever was behind the assassination had the opportunity to fake the film, or even why any conspirators would have cared about what the film showed. You'd think the believers would have got the message by now. I suppose the 'everything is a fake' idea will never go away while there are still people who believe that the world is run by secret cabals with super-human powers.

Incidentally, I've looked up the (American) definition of 'mook' and the (Scottish) definition of 'roaster'. My vocabulary is now two words richer!

Great post, all. So funny and scary the way this guy and others think the way they do. There was a crazy argument I had with Larsen on EF about throwing a baseball from the outfield of a ballfield. He insisted that you'd have to throw the ball 100 feet in the air in order for it to arrive at home plate. I told him that it's not true that I had done this many times while playing ball is HS and college. All of this was somehow tied to the assassination (I think it had something to do with trajectory or something like that). Sounds crazy but the larger point is, like JB said here, he's always right and everyone else is always wrong.

JFK_Case wrote:Great post, all. So funny and scary the way this guy and others think the way they do. There was a crazy argument I had with Larsen on EF about throwing a baseball from the outfield of a ballfield. He insisted that you'd have to throw the ball 100 feet in the air in order for it to arrive at home plate. I told him that it's not true that I had done this many times while playing ball is HS and college. All of this was somehow tied to the assassination (I think it had something to do with trajectory or something like that). Sounds crazy but the larger point is, like JB said here, he's always right and everyone else is always wrong.

Here it is.

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/22979-why-humes-thought-the-back-missile-hit-at-a-sharp-angle-a-hypothesis/?do=findComment&comment=332332

As usual Jeremy , directly and succinctly articulates one of the key issues : this seeming  mania for declaring things " Proved"

If anything it just further underlines their dogmatism and lack of experience. The Professor and the  Academician( sounds like some  superhero crime fighting duo..By day mild mannered Sandy Larsen  singlehandedly runs the  theoretical physics  department at MIT but at night  he transforms into  Tin Foil Man...with his trusty sidekick,  Stork Boy, so  called because of his impossibly elongated  legs, otherwise known as Professor Emeritus Academician John Butler,  Dean of  Balliol College and  current  holder of the Lifton Chair of Applied Grooviness, together they battle the nefarious forces of  lone nutism...ever vigilant for glimmers of rationality and independent  thought) are perennial  poster boys for the arrogance of inexperience.  

Knowing next to nothing they know no fear. Their " thought  processes "(sic) further corroded by their  absolute  belief in militant doppelgangerism  etc. Yet again the esteemed  professor  confuses mere assumptions/ assertions  for  valid proof. As if a couple of  vague sentences and a  multi generational copy/ gif constitutes  proper scientific confirmation.  

If they had the humility and  the intellectual honesty to say something  like,  " in my opinion  the Zapruder film is fake ", before  elucidating a coherent,  falsifiable  argument,  responding to  criticism  rather than acting like a couple of low rent evangelists for some tawdry fundamentalist cult, shrieking  abuse and  making all sorts of insinuations there would be no problem. It might  actually  be quite an interesting  debate (it's the sheer fucking arrogance that never fails to amaze..you either  believe  the TRUTH  as revealed by  sentient  spaghetti monster in a paisley patterned cravat,  who doth levitate  from behind the  unflushable  downstairs toilet to reveal the mysteries of the cosmos, and the colour of Mary  Moorman's sneakers to Galactic  Brother Butler, or else you are a  lone nutist,  a propagandist  or a  sinister  disinformation agent , dispatched by a nervous  government.  Imagine  President  Biden's  National  Security  Council  meeting " What's top of the agenda today  General? The threat of nuclear  escalation in the Ukraine? The potential  refugee crisis? Unrest at home?" " No Mr President,  John Butler and Sandy Larsen have blown the whole  JFK cover up? " Whaddya  mean?" " Mr President , they've  discovered  the  SECRET " " NOT THE SECRET!!"" I'm afraid so Sir, how we blackmailed  Edward  Teller and that commie  stooge Oppenheimer forcing them to rewrite the laws of physics,  in a reconstituted  pawnbrokers  van / mobile  photo alteration lab across from the  TSBD, altering every film and photo of the assassination...even the ones  they didn't yet have " " Have  they found out about the  Zapruder factory? And the  Sitzman/ Oswald  cutting edge ovarian experiments?"" They know everything " " There's only one thing for it General,  activate the  Top Secret  Disinformation  Squad " ... I mean it's not like there's anything else going on out in the world right now. Obviously the entire  National  Security  Infrastructure  is  going to be focused on the current escapades of  Tin Foil  Man and  Stork Boy)

If it ultimately  transpired  that the  back of the  President's  head was somehow darkened to disguise an avulsive  wound,  or a  couple,  or even a few frames were removed ( accidentally  or with nefarious intent) I'm sure all us lone nutists and disinformation agents would welcome  these developments. 

This  apparently  never ending cycle of  Hunt the Anomaly,  or making all sorts of wild,  totally unsubstantiated  claims  of  fakery , and  crucially, proof of fakery,  it just  looks  ridiculous. 

Dr Costella is quite clearly a  highly accomplished,  highly  intelligent  individual.  But relying on a physicist  to  examine a piece of 8mm film is the  equivalent of  getting a  world  authority on Italo  Byzantine  art to comment on the  socio political  upheavals  caused by the  Thirty Years  War

Surely its  experts in  film who should  be consulted?, professionals who spent their working lives dealing with the medium, and  who understand the contemporary  technology.  The camera  itself and the film.

Surely  that's  self evident  We're  fortunate enough to have a couple of highly accomplished,  experienced film professionals  here. I've found their arguments compelling.  Mick's  essay on the subject should be mandatory  reading. 

With all due respect to  Dr Costella I'm more inclined to listen to the  proven experts. Every one who has commented on the subject  states , quite  categorically  that  alteration would have been impossible.  

Due to the  technical  limitations and the  time  constraints etc( apologies to  Mick and  Michael if I'm not  describing the substance of your arguments  correctly)

Watch any near  contemporary  film, especially the  special effects,  the idea that  60 year old  special effects would be unnoticeable  is , quite frankly, incredible. Remember the embarrassing  Mary Poppins  debacle? In retrospect  there's something  depressingly  appropriate  ..the ultimate  purveyor of conspiracy  make believes  argument  hinges upon a  troupe of animated dancing  penguins...

Perhaps  the  goodly  Professor and his  Academician  sidekick should  investigate..I can  just  picture another  potential  Trine Day blockbuster...The Dancing  Penguins  of Dealey  Plaza  with a foreword by the  ever insightful  Vince Palamara..and  illustrated  by Judyth Vary Baker " Lee told  me there would be  Cuban  assassins  dressed up as dancing penguins with  flechettes hidden in their feathers..He also told me  Tosh Plumlees  abort squad came dressed up as loveable  cockney  chimneysweeps " 

It's not only the  technological aspects,  persuasive as they are,  that makes me doubt alteration , its what I've  learned by studying the operational  capabilities/ mindset of the  contemporary  government/ intelligence agencies.  The  techniques  employed are almost unbelievably  crude by our standards. 

The  " accidental " reversal of the  headshot  frames for example. 

Then there's the immediate post assassination, by all accounts  chaotic,  with all sorts of wildly divergent  stories  circulating. I doubt that the  Lone Nut plan was even  Plan A. 

Read the cables, the  communiques  flying around,  listen to the conversations,...

The whole notion of some  cabal of  super human  conspirators - omniscient,  omnipotent and  omnipresent- with the ability to divine the innermost workings of the human soul,  and the  reactions of  researchers and investigators as yet unborn  is absolute fucking  nonsense. 

One of  many highly detrimental  side effects  caused by the procession  of  con artists,  purporting to be  insiders, and the  deluge of  revisionist  books, turning the  Hoovers,  Dulles,  Lansdales,  Phillips  et al  into comic book  stereotypes..supervillains..

If a million monkeys film a million assassinations we still would be where Zavada told us we'd be.

Unable to replicate Zapruder.

Thats weak.
I'll go Rollie one better.
Zapruder cant replicate Zapruder.
Rollie and Abe shoulda opened a film school for monkeys.

Thee Peculiarity of frame 303 maybe the reactions, not in it but too it
...or lack there of, to it.
Too bad Dr Ryan had as much fluff to his resume as Rollie and wasnt subject to being just a product engineer whom didnt even know what he was looking for but I digress.
The authority?
Not those that flee.
Besides Costella ran from 303 too. He gave his reasons and said he would provide new proof showing he was in error but hasnt.
If its stacking shit up in some contest as if that proves something I can win that hands down.
Is that the goal. Nah. It could be real quick, unlike the limo leaving the plaza.
Or is Dr Alvarez also suffering from CV deficiencies.
What Nobel prize were you up for again ... gosh I cant seem to recall it... sorry?
I said stop arguements from ignorance not accelerate them, unlike the limo from the plaza.
(See what I did there)

Those darn monkeys take photos and make up evidence but never ever incriminating films, of course.
Film too hard to fake ask any news agency. Too many films to take and fake ask Muchmore and Nix... Yada yada. If you cant imagine a solution you are not needed... right.
Life is full of challenges but man has overcame them or at least the best ones have. 
The other monkeys not so much.
 Screw the benchwarmers and critics. 
If I wanted a warm seat and lip service Id go to them for advice.

I recall Barb Junkkarinen saying she examined the black patch on tge back Kennedys head and it wasnt black but many colors.... yep Barb failed her elementary school paint class ... primary colors make black but its too late to inform Barb.
She didnt address the black goes past the hair and head of JFK but hey she examined it... please.
A actual density scan shows her late opionion was junk.
It sounded authoritative coming from Barb.
Too bad black is made of colors, the patch wasnt perfectly placed and science trumped her opinion.

Cheers for fears

A little tidbit on Doug Horne. A number of years ago, I was contacted by a very prominent and respected member of this community to tell me about Doug Horne and his attempt to write his multi-volume work on the assassination. The gist of the email was that the strain and stress of the work and the emormous ramifications of his findings, were having such a deletorious effect on Horne's health that he was on the verge of a "nervous breakdown". I got the distinct impression from the emailer that this imminent breakdown was somehow proof that Horne's work was not just credible, but extremely important.

Reminds me of the authors who interview people and believe them because they seem nice. Well, the belief certainly couldn't be because the person is saying what the author wants to hear. That'd never happen. 

But this is worse. He was all but saying a breakdown could only be caused by how heavy all that Truthiness weighed upon Horne's shoulders.  Fuck that shit. Facts don't need no goddamn influencers shilling for them. Only bullshit needs a salesman - and only salemen need such theatrics as a "nervous breakdown" as a means of getting critical thinking put aside. 

I always found a lot to be suspicious about Horne - especially how he somehow ended up straying from his ARRB specialty area of military intel into the medical side, seemingly for the sole purpose of Trojaning the Body Snatcher and his theories into the mix. And don't get me started about his relationship with the Body Snatcher. More than a little creepy, imo.

From the instant he declared his prime motivation( or, to be scrupulously  fair,  one of his prime motivationns )for joining the ARRB staff was to attempt to  definitively  prove Lifton's necrotic  " theories " Horne, imho at least,  blew his credibility. 

Just another wild eyed conspiracy believer ,seeking to confirm his deeply cherished world views.  The only  difference being Horne( temporarily at least) was a wild eyed conspiracy believer with a government office. 

Apparently he lives in  mortal fear of the  assassination research equivalent of " the  Men in Black ". Terrified he'll be  arrested , then  bundled off in the back of an unmarked black Humvee , taken for enhanced interrogation  in a recently vacated  underground bunker complex in the Nevada desert. 

Surely anyone who has dallied  for any length of time, through the Looking Glass, up amidst the  marshmallow  clouds, in the rarefied  oxygen free heights of Conspiracy  Castle , has come to accept  no amount of academic credentials or impressive  job titles  are any real defence against the vagaries of full blown  conspiritisis.  

The most illustrious  personages  are no more immune to the  esoteric  " charms" of Tosh Plumlee,  Alterationism  etc etc than your  humble  highly skilled detective,  lurking in the malodorous  depths of mommy's basement ( In fact maybe its a big conspiracy,  man...Bill Gates and  George  Soros are using  their  fleet of  back engineered anti  gravity  UFOs to  spray the population with  their  lethal  Conspiracy  Germs..turning the whole  fucking world into a  herd of  headless  John Butler clones...Jack White and  Bill Cooper  warned us about  Chem Trails...but would we listen?)

Yet again  the  highly respected  Professor Larsen  has had more of  his " proofs" debunked...But it doesn't matter..it's  still valid proof!! 

Professor  Larsen's Golden  Mean  of Conspiracing: " It doesn't matter if I'm  wrong because I'm still right "

They're  using digitally  enhanced  multi  generational  copies of a  film Costella  admitted to  " modifying " to try and somehow prove " alteration"..they're  like  characters in a  comedy  sketch show...

Caricatures of the archetypal  bumbling  self obsessed  conspiracy theorists..

And certainly in the  case of  the  Professor and his  Academician sidekick  they're too stupid to realise it. 

Symptomatic  of  a  nasty trend..the debunking  of the debunking of the original  Warren Report.  These clowns come up with so much  far fetched  nonsense;  fantastical  convoluted  scenarios  that  make their  imaginary  Cecil  DeMille  cast of conspirators  sound like  the Olympian  Gods decided to  spend an autumnal  afternoon  frolicking  amongst the mortals in  downtown  Dallas..It was Phoebus  Apollo  on the  Grassy  Knoll  , and it was  Dionysus  himself  who got the  secret service agents  drunk...We already knew about  Aphrodite  meeting  Lee HARVEY  Oswald in  that most enchanted  romantic place..a Louisiana  post office  queue...

They  have managed to make the case for  conspiracy ( their idiosyncratic  notion of conspiracy I hasten to add) seem  more  far fetched and nonsensical than the  original  Warren Report..the Granddaddy of  nonsensical  theories.

That's  quite an achievement.

According to Jim D, Horne said during the filming of JFK Revisited that ARRB internal social security/tax records or something showed Roy Truly was not being paid through the TSBD - and of course was allegedly afraid to be arrested for sharing such confidential information on the set. Would be big if true, but yea he’s not exactly a bastion of credibility. Admitting that your entire mission as an official government investigator was to prove Best Evidence is just ridiculous. Hey, at least he was honest about his confirmation bias…?

So, what are the thoughts on Doug Horne’s claim regarding two independent, compartmentalized evaluations of ostensibly original Zapruder films on the nights of November 23 and 24?

The first night, with Dino Brugioni is credible since Brugioni was on camera admitting it took place. I’m not so sure of the reliability of Brugioni’s recall of the effects of the head shot in the film he worked with 50 years previously as evidence of alteration It would seem that seeing it for the first time would make the most vivid impression. And there was nothing in the interviews that the NPIC analysis had come up with evidence of multiple shooters. If I recall correctly, this film was supposedly already altered at the Kodak “Hawkeye Works” plant in Rochester, NY.

I haven’t seen any interviews/documentation of the second night with NPIC analyst Homer McMahon. If the first night went OK, why the need for a second analysis and briefing board compilation? When asked for the second NPIC evaluation, why didn’t NPIC head Arthur Lundahl say we already did one last night?

The first night, NPIC had to get a local camera shop to open up in the middle of the night in order to buy an 8mm film projector as NPIC did not work with 8mm film. What did they use the second night? Did anyone ask, “What’s an 8mm projector doing around here?” And how did either team know the film speed of Zapruder’s camera?

If the second night evaluation did take place, a non-sinister explanation is that two government agencies simply and unknowingly duplicated each others work. The second team was not allocated one of the original copies and borrowed one and made their own copy.

The FBI issued it’s report on the assassination on December 9, 1963. They concluded that there were 3 shots and JFK was hit by the first and last while JBC was hit by the second. No conspiracy and no single bullet theory. They knew as early as November 29 that their report and presumably the film would be evaluated by the Warren Commission.

If the Zapruder film is altered it's useless as evidence.
If the Zapruder film is genuine; what does it prove? Who shot from where and what wounds did JFK suffer?
A great example of wheel spinning.

Meanwhile, two films which can have momentum are ignored.
Job done, by some, i would say.

Problem was this was back when Lifton was more credible than the Warren Ommission.
Of course who wasnt...

Bullseye Steely!
Thats something Ive heard a lot lately as I look into the details.
Doesnt solve anything except showed Warren Commission, FBI and CIA came to differing shot sequence and origin conclusions as expected.
...that film should be only used as a guide.
I recall the protestations at NPIC about using a stopwatch to time the shots
A spring wound film camera!
Being played on a projector not timed to the original camera for timing.
Yeah.
Using Z for general measures has its pitfalls


Shaneyfelt was as useful as Zapruder in identification of a ""complete film"....

Who is going to say its good for anything but a trophy.
NOT THE OWNER OR THE FBI!

NBC played the same game as Life w/Zap as with Wieg and Darn.
They, NotBeingCorrect (nbc) should be compelled to cough 'em up.
Its not like NBC is offering the celluloid films for study and yet sells inferior copies of their copy of original. Makes me sick.
That almost seems criminal.
Akin to tampering with evidence.

We need a subpoena thread.
Ruth for wilfull destruction
NBC for withholding
Etcetra

Steely and  Ed make excellent points. 

In the final analysis the argument over Zapruder film alteration is nothing more than a distraction. And a fucking pointless distraction at that. 

Yet another  dead end,  one more rabbit hole in this Warren  like maze of  deceit and  delusion

Until now  the  Zapruder film has been the single most compelling piece of pro conspiracy evidence.  If , hypothetically speaking,  it turns out the film was indeed altered,  then surely this was a catastrophic miscalculation by the alterers? The only other piece of evidence with perhaps equal  power and potency remains languishing  unseen , lurking in the very darkest corner of the abyss..

Arguing about alteration is the equivalent of discovering the enemies  secret weapon,  instead of turning the weapon upon its creators , you choose to disassemble the weapon,  standing around arguing about what are, relatively speaking,  trivial technical details  while your enemy continues the offensive...remaining focused on one thing, and one thing alone- victory. 

I write this in the full knowledge and acceptance that I'm one of the ones  standing around ,wasting more valuable time arguing. 

Arguing with characters who appear to have little respect for themselves,  much less the subject in question. 

" I don't have to prove a thing " 

I can think of no better epitaph for a particularly regressive,  unproductive style of  " research "

Comparing apples and oranges is one thing,  but attempting to compare  dancing penguins with selective blurring?

It would be a good,  no a great joke if it wasn't so tragic. 

A monument to ignorance,  self delusion,  self  defeating smugness and lassitude 


The way I see it every time this forum,  or individual members  try to move forward,  dragging this so called community out of the morass of complacency and  fundamentalist  sludge its  become mired in,  clowns like Larsen and Butler ,  come popping up,  like  Tin Foil Hats  in a Box,  apparently  determined  to  pull us all back into the primordial slime of the  very darkest days of cretinously Cretaceous  conspiracism..

When  lumbering  fire breathing  Fetzersauruses  roamed the plains of  Minnesota,  and  chasing  herds of  hermaphrodite  herbivores,  like the flightless back to front Liftonopods, so called because they shit out of their mouths and their asses. Terrified by the thundering   footsteps of the thunderous lizard, Stegoshackelfordsaurus,  with a brain the size of a Reily  coffee bean...

Blinded by his preposterously inflated ego, and drunk on self delusion  the porcine snouted prodigy  is  making a complete mockery of us all.  

If he possesses the tiniest grain of self respect,  integrity,  and  respect for the subject  he would have the courage ( not to mention the courtesy) at least to attempt to articulate his so called  " proof"

Instead he chooses the easy way out; the path well traveled ( and  trodden) by decades worth of fabulists,  fantasists,  grifters, fake witnesses,  wannabe cult leaders and  plain old goofballs..

" I don't have to prove a thing...it's up to my critics to prove me wrong "

After  " Duh! The CIA faked Oswald's  dental records " I thought I'd  heard it all. But " proof" that's  still proof after its been proven wrong,? 

My dear Professor Larsen you don't have " critics " you have people who point out your pigheaded ignorance,  your unbelievably misguided arrogance and  your  increasingly comical blunders. You do realise you are making an absolute fool of yourself? Such  pigheaded arrogance and  stubbornness is never a particularly good image to project,  but when someone who has made mistake after mistakes and  comically  juvenile blunder after comically juvenile blunder  adopts a sneering condescending  attitude,  talking down and attempting to patronize individuals,  it just makes him( you) look like an utter prick. A laughing stock and a figure of derision. 

For all I know you may well be a wonderful person,  and a highly accomplished engineer.  But a historian, or any sort of researcher you are not. You come across as a shallow small minded sanctimonious  twat...who invariably makes a pig's ear of his intended proof. As is so often the case it's the ones who should be doing the listening who seem determined to do all the talking..

Like all fools every time you open your mouth,  or set your trotters a tapping,  you only end up making yourself look more foolish. 

If you can't see the difference between animated dancing penguins and so called selective blurring I don't know what else to say...Ive  never heard anything quite as ridiculous..

Except to ask , in your expert opinion,  with your profound knowledge of all matters physics,  algebra and optics related...do you think they faked Dick Van  Dyke too? 

And have you asked your illustrious colleague,  Academician Butler,  if there were any dancing penguins on the  loose in the vicinity of Dealey Plaza that afternoon? Maybe  Phil Willis' extra long leg was really a flipper!! Maybe Phil Willis was really a secret  dancing penguin assassin disguised as Phil Willis!!

If got it!! It was the Penguin firing the flechette from his umbrella..

The Penguin always carried an umbrella,  right? They had to alter all the films and photos to disguise the fact that  Dealey Plaza was awash with homicidal  dancing penguins..

They had to keep the sheeple  safely anaesthesised..that's why they made  Batman!! To begin the process of  Disclosure...revealing the  hidden  troof..the Cold War  was really a charade to disguise the real " Cold War " Humanity  versus  hordes of  psychotic dancing penguins...swooping down in their  back engineered  Nazi UFOs from their secret  bases in the  Antarctic

alex_wilson wrote:After  " Duh! The CIA faked Oswald's  dental records " I thought I'd  heard it all. But " proof" that's  still proof after its been proven wrong,?

My dear Professor Larsen you don't have " critics " you have people who point out your pigheaded ignorance,  your unbelievably misguided arrogance and  your  increasingly comical blunders. You do realise you are making an absolute fool of yourself? Such  pigheaded arrogance and  stubbornness is never a particularly good image to project,  but when someone who has made mistake after mistakes and  comically  juvenile blunder after comically juvenile blunder  adopts a sneering condescending  attitude,  talking down and attempting to patronize individuals,  it just makes him( you) look like an utter prick. A laughing stock and a figure of derision.

The professor does like making simple-minded dogmatic pronouncements, but he isn't so keen on producing evidence to support them.

As well as his evidence-free pronouncement that the Zapruder film was altered (but "I don't need to explain how it was done"), and his evidence-free pronouncement that the CIA faked Oswald's dental records, there's his evidence-free pronouncement that both of Armstrong's imaginary doppelgangers had undergone a mastoidectomy operation:

Sandy at the Ed Forum wrote:the most logical thing to conclude from the fact that Harvey & Lee each had a mastoidectomy scar is that both had the surgery.

(https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26056-evidence-for-harvey-and-lee-please-debate-the-specifics-right-here-dont-just-claim-someone-else-has-debunked-it/page/7/)

He actually used the word 'fact' to describe that piece of utter fantasy. The evidence he cited didn't support his pronouncement, because of course there is no documentary evidence that two Oswalds each underwent a mastoidectomy operation. There is documentary evidence for only one operation, performed on only one Oswald in 1946, and only one mastoidectomy scar, discovered on only one Oswald corpse in 1981.

He must have known perfectly well that the mastoidectomy business absolutely disproved the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense. Any rational, honest person would have admitted that, and acknowledged that there weren't any doppelgangers. Instead, Larsen came up with probably the most unlikely excuse anyone could think of that didn't involve space aliens. And then he described it as a 'fact'. It takes a special sort of dogmatic belief and lack of self-awareness to do that.

On the same page as his 'fact' claim, he tried to show that there are astronomically high odds against an innocent explanation for some of the Stripling evidence, and that this proves that there were two Oswalds. It's complete nonsense. Here's his conclusion:

Sandy at the Ed Forum wrote:Multiplying 1/10,000,000,00 by 1/50 gives one in 500 billion. The population of the world would have to be 500 billion to produce one lucky sole [sic] to which these these three events happened. But, again, there were only 2.5 billion inhabitants on Earth at that time. And so it would have been virtually impossible for these three things to have happened to a single person. These three things -- two clerical errors and the corruption of a vice principal -- could not have happened to Oswald. ... And that is why I say that statistically the Harvey & Lee theory is a slam dunk. There are so many things pointing to multiple Oswalds that it cannot be reasonably denied.

Not only is this stuff pseudoscientific nonsense, but the argument he was trying to defeat wasn't actually anything to do with clerical errors. That misunderstanding, and his equally unfounded pseudointellectual accusation that Greg was using circular reasoning, are corrected here:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2208-dear-sandy

No doubt Larsen considers himself to be a step or two above Butler on the credibility ladder. I'm not convinced there's much difference between them. For one thing, neither of them seems to understand the basic principle that if you make a claim, it isn't up to other people to disprove it, it's up to you to prove it. If you can't or won't do that ("I don't need to explain how it was done"), your claim is worthless.

Brigham Young University, eh? I'd heard of it, and always assumed it was a slightly more upmarket version of the Billy Bob's Bible College type of institute of higher learning where all those televangelist frauds go to purchase their qualifications. According to RationalWiki (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Brigham_Young_University), it is actually a genuine university, albeit one that's owned and run by a particularly nutty religious cult.

A place like that isn't going to undermine itself by teaching its students much about critical thinking. I'm not entirely surprised that a former attendee at a religious institution thinks it's OK to make up whatever 'facts' you like, and that the more far-fetched your evidence-free assertion is, the better.

Why Jeremy, don't you know? Larsen is just following in the footsteps of old Joe Smith, Jr., the guy who was handed golden tablets from an angel, said, "I don't have to show anyone the tablets...just believe me" and was later imprisoned.

Ever notice that in all these religions, god speaks only to individuals and only in remote locations? Moses on the mountain, Noah somewhere in the desert, Mohammed in a desert cave, Joseph Smith in his field.  Christ was the apparent exception but then god spoke through him but then they can’t agree (and had wars over) whether he was god, son of god, part god part human, holy ghost.

The only difference between a religion and a cult is the number of followers.

Ha, right. The funniest thing of all is we are total specks on this Earth - like grains of sand - and even more so in the vast universe. And yet, there are people out there that say he/she was the chosen one out of those mere grains. And sadly, there are plenty of fools out there who actually believe them, which is why the whole JFK assassination has become a literal cottage industry of folks reaching into the pockets of these fools and pulling out their dollars.

JFK_Case wrote:Ha, right. The funniest thing of all is we are total specks on this Earth - like grains of sand - and even more so in the vast universe. And yet, there are people out there that say he/she was the chosen one out of those mere grains. And sadly, there are plenty of fools out there who actually believe them, which is why the whole JFK assassination has become a literal cottage industry of folks reaching into the pockets of these fools and pulling out their dollars.

Funny story, my girlfriend has known Charles Brandt for years, the guy who wrote the book The Irishman was based off of. She went to a book release event the other day for some other author, and Brandt was there. Brandt told her he has a new book coming out in September, in which he claims to have finally “solved” the entire JFK case by applying his unique experience as a professional investigator. Of course, he could not reveal any details until the book’s release. She comes home excited as she is aware of my obsession, tells me what happened, and I predictably roll my eyes. She wants to introduce me so we can talk JFK, which should be interesting, but I didn’t know how to tell her I thought the guy was full of shit. Hey, at least I’ll get a free copy of an overpriced book when it comes out…

That said, a conspiracy book by this guy can’t be a bad thing, as it’ll probably get at least some media coverage for the case leading up to the December document (non) release. I found the book preview on Amazon, has kind of a cool cover design - red background with images of JFK, Oswald, Tippit, and Earl Warren. I will not be holding my breath for any new evidence though.

We are indeed all grains of sand on the shore,  at the mercy of the restless tides of infinity , but , as the poet says,  recognising and accepting your own  utter insignificance is the first step on the path to true selfhood. 

Our insignificance is our greatest strength,  the greatest equalizer of all,  for no matter how worldly and mighty you may be, or indeed become,  in the final analysis we are all nothing but grains of sand,  scarred by the lazy footprints time has scattered carelessly , it is the echo of those footprints we call memory,  and the glimmers of the sun, pouring across the waves of eternity we call dreams. 

On a far more prosaic note Ive  just finished reading a post,  an extract from the late Hank Albarelli's  Coup in Dallas .

A few dense, practically  impenetrable  paragraphs ; the six degrees of separation spiced up with some , quite frankly,  irresponsible  speculations and  Alice in Wonderland  (il) logic, it was a  nigh  on perfect example of poorly  conceived,  sourced and reasoned conspiracy  faction. 

In amongst the dizzying  swirl and the  sometimes breathless  flurries of psuedoscholarship  a couple of quite incredible  claims  leapt out at me. Completely  misrepresenting( misunderstanding?) the career of a senior  British  government official,  while  making an utterly ridiculous  claim about another. Presenting a  thoroughly  distorted  overview of how the British wartime  establishment  operated, replete  with ( if I  correctly  deciphered the  confused, sometimes  elliptical  prose musings) the almost obligatory,  underhanded ( unsourced) insinuations  of collaboration/ financial  skulduggery. 

It was  Tom  Scully  meets  Pete  Frame's Rock Family  Trees; So and so worked for company X, while  so in sos good chum, A.N.Other worked for  company  Y, now company Ys managing directors secretary  once said " hello" to someone who knew  Joachim  Von Rippentrop..obviously  they were all part of an informal  Nazi money laundering  scheme..

Ive  studied all aspects of WW2 and it's  myriad causes ( and tumultuously  cynical aftermath  that ultimately ossified  Europe,  and the best part of the world for almost half a century) quite closely,  and  I can say with some confidence  that ive got a pretty good working knowledge of the  issues involved : military,  political,  social  , economic and  intelligence  related 

In amongst the  non stop torrent of names,  rattled out in staccato bursts, the  poster/ writer makes some quite ridiculous claims , actually  taking the  infamous  long exposed scam " the Priory of Sion" seriously..claiming this super secret  knightly  sect dated back to the  Crusades. The amount of absolute bullshit  swirling around these subjects- the Crusades,  the Knight's  Templar, the  Vatican etc is absolutely  incredible. Any halfway competent  researcher shouldn't be falling for such  blatant  con tricks.  I'm  afraid anyone who takes the  Priory of Sion seriously  forfeits  any vestige of  credibility. 

What's  next? The other  Marguerite  Oswald was a  Merovingian princess? With the  sang  real  coursing  through her doppelganged veins?

I'm sorry if my comments seem  needlessly,  almost gratuitously  disrespectful . I know  Hank Albarelli  was a  highly  respected figure and author of at least one important  book ( A Terrible  Mistake) but  anyone who  has studied the  history of the  Third Reich,  especially the  Waffen  SS and  the secret police  apparatus , and who understands how they operated, and the  mythology that very  quickly  sprang  up,post war, most  especially surrounding the  few high profile  mid to high ranking  fugitives in an aura of  dark glamour,  enhanced by the Hollywood treatment.." Is it safe?"( including the  fanciful  tales of  sinister  all powerful networks  like  ODESSA  and  Der  Spinne.  Yes, the  Vatican  ratlines  existed,  yes various  Allied intelligence agencies  , especially  CIC and  MI6 were integral in helping their pet Nazis  evade justice,  in most cases the hang man's noose, and  yes at various  points  there were informal mutual aid networks  set up, mostly  under the auspices of HIAG, but their main purpose was  regaining  pensions/ civil rights . But most of the  stories of Bormann ( who died trying to escape from the Bunker on the early morning of the 1st May 1945, in the company of  Dr Stumpfegger ( who had supervised the poisoning of the 6 Goebbels  children) in the vicinity of the  Charlottenburg  station) Fegelein,  Eva  Braun's brother in law,  who was executed  in  front of  dozens of witnesses , after he was arrested in his mistresses  flat and  turned over to the tender mercies of  Rattenhuber  and  his cut throat  gang, et al , controlling a vast  network is fiction of the most lurid and ahistorical  kind.) would  surely  agree that the very  idea of  someone like  Skorzeny  acting as some sort of  eminence  grise , contracted to  facilitate the assassination...it's  pure fantasy. 

Skorzeny is  ( along with Der  Totesangel  Dr Mengele,  Elsa  Koch,  the  Bitch of Buchenwald  and  Irme  Grese,  the blonde haired  sadist, who,  when barely out of her teens , became infamous, while a guard at Auschwitz, for her promiscuous  sado masochistic  depravity and her murderous tantrums) perhaps  the  ultimate example of Naziexplotation , the merging of fantasy with a tiny kernel of fact to create potent cultural  tropes , solidifying the  dangerously  glamorous  leather clad SS stereotypes ,  seductive anti heroes , a monstrous  glimpse into the darkest recesses of the human psyche. 

Skorzeny,  a towering  charismatic  figure, a grizzled swashbuckler right down to the  fencing scars that crisscrossed his face , became a cottage industry unto himself. 
Hitler's  favourite commando, SS Obersturmbannfuhrer( lieutenant colonel), holder of the coveted Knights  Cross, his exploits were the stuff of legend.  The  Gran  Sasso Raid,  a daring gliderborne  commando assault to rescue the fallen  Mussolini  from his mountaintop  prison ( actually a hotel) kidnapping the son of  Hungarian  leader ,Admiral  Horthy, then smuggling him out the palace inside a rolled up carpet( shades of  Cleopatra's  dramatic  first appearance before Julius  Caesar),Operation Greif  ,launched  during the ill  fated  Ardennes  Offensive ( the  Battle of the Bulge) Jeeps full of  Skorzeny's hand picked  English speaking  freebooters, dressed in  American uniforms,  some masquerading as  MPs, causing  havoc  behind the Allied lines, the ripples  eventually  reaching as far back as Paris, even SHAEF HQ, as wild stories hinting at Eisenhower's  imminent  kidnapping  circulated,  tales of  panic stricken  senior  officers  shooting at shadows ( and  passing  stray cats) mistaking them for  Skorzeny's  piratical  desperados. Then there's the myths: the attempted murder of the  Big Three at their  conference in Tehran,  the  scheme to kidnap the Pope,  his der doing  death defying missions on the  crumbling  Eastern  Front..

And what of the the post war  mythology? ; announcing his intention of escaping,  then casually strolling out the  POW compound ,or jumping over the fence,  or bribing a venal  guard,  depending on whose " memoirs " one chooses to believe,  choosing an alias to incorporate his own initials  Rolf  O.S. Steinbauer. Photographed  enjoyed an aperitif  in a  Parisian  boulevard  cafe,  buying a  house in Ireland,  the  shady business  dealings in the conducive  environment of  Generalissimo  Franco's Spain, working for practically every intelligence agency in the world,  including  Mossad and the  CIA, working for the  Israelis,  for  Egypt,  his wanderings  could almost serve as a map of the  geopolitical  hotspots of the mid 20th century..

To go through the  list, separating fact from fiction,  debunking the  fantasies ( Skorzeny was a  skilled self mythologiser  highly adroit,  with a marvelously  amoral attitude  towards the truth , he gave  people what they wanted to hear) and picking apart the  actual events from the tapestry of myth they were seamlessly woven , would  take a book length  study. 

Garrulous,  almost unbelievably naive and lacking basic leadership  skills,  a poor  soldier with no real  grasp of  strategy,  Skorzeny  nevertheless was personally  courageous ( reckless  even) impetuous,  a great improviser and ( unsurprisingly) a world  class bullshitter,  despite  his flaws( and perhaps partly because of them, especially his gregarious nature affability) his undeniable  magnetism  engendered an extreme  sense of loyalty,  bordering on devotion amongst the men  he led.  He might have become a  middling  company  commander  if it wasn't for  Goebbels deft propaganda  skills . The Minister of  Propaganda and Public  Enlightenment  created what the country and his Fuhrer  most needed- a hero. Carefully  moulded to fit the  idealized image of a  National  Socialist  warrior ( political  soldier) Skorzeny,  an unlikely  idol for a  dictatorship , was catapulted to fame. 

On the back of  far more competent,  but less charismatic  senior officers ( especially  Kurt Student), or else  his feats were  wildly  exaggerated. 

Ive  studied his extant  SS personnel  file and his military  records and  most of the available documents  charting his post war career , the  idea of  him being involved with the planning of the assassination is utter nonsense. 

Here's a  clue for those intrepid  researchers/ crime fighting  superheroes: Tin Foil  Man and Stork Boy.  Check out a certain  Gestapo  Hauptsturmfuhrer/ Kriminal Inspektor  , Herr  Flick , and  his voluptuous  assistant,  Helga,  Check out  a  certain  Wehrmacht  Generalleutant  Von Klinkerhoffer,  according to  an  anonymous  source, widely regarded as the greatest assassination researcher in the world ( codenamed  Der  Judenwocky) Herr  Flick and  General  Von Klinkerhoffer  escaped from the  Allies, disguised as down on their luck  exotic dancers, with the famous  picture  ,Von Klumpfs  " Fallen Madonna  with ze  Big Boobies " hidden in Helga's famously accommodating  bloomers they  made their  rendezvous with  Skorzeny in the  house of a  4 year old  science prodigy in Bradenton  Florida,  after Allen Dulles had paper clipped them into the  USA , disguised  as  multi  lingual  Hungarian  doppelgangers. After doing a spot of freelance  doppelgangering  , throughout the  50s, and early  60s they headed down to the  Big Easy where Clay Bertrand  sold the  Fallen  Madonna to Ron Lewis ( a noted art connoisseur and avid collector of paintings  from  the  somewhat obscure  early  19th century  German  Oompah school )

With  this money,  and the assistance of a couple of mobile photo altering  trucks  full of  highly  trained  dancing penguin snipers,  a few desultory  doppelgangers , Tosh Plumlee, Rod McKenzie,  William  Greer and  secret  CIA Illuminati  Jesuit  assassin  , Jackie  Kennedy,  they masterminded the assassination..

Try  disproving  that!!

Among the biggest war criminals to escape were the Soviets who helped re-arm Germany even before Hitler came to power, joined Germany in the invasion of Poland, supplied Germany with fuel, food and strategic materials as the Soviets themselves invaded numerous other countries. Even after the Soviets became our “allies”, they still tried to seek a separate peace with Germany in 1943 despite Roosevelt and Churchill bending over backwards to supply Stalin with assistance (at considerable risk to their own forces) and pledging an unconditional surrender which arguably prolonged the war, lest Stalin pick up his marbles and go home.

Their reward? They get to be judges at the Nuremberg trials where they brazenly try to charge Germany with the Katyn massacre in Poland. Plus eastern europe. Not bad!

Absolutely.  Going back even further  to the  Civil  War ( which eventually devolved into a brutal multi sided fratricide. Arguably the  Greens,  and  Makhnos  Anarchists were more of a threat to embryonic  " Dictatorship of the  Proletariat " than the poorly led uncoordinated  White Armies .) The Polish  Soviet  War, War Communism  that ended in famine,  the newly formed  Soviet  Union only stabilized by Lenin's  NEP ,  the  horrors of  Collectivisation,  which was pretty much an undeclared war on the  Peasantry,  then the  Holdomor  famine,  the  most destructive  man made  famine in human history,  millions  starved to death,  their grain seized to be sold for the  foreign currency needed to fund  the Five Year  Plans,  then the  Great  Terror, not forgetting  the  Molotov  Ribbentrop Agreement,  the dismemberment of Poland, the deportation and murder of  countless innocent souls,  including the notorious  Katyn  Forest  Massacre ( Stalin's  pet assassin, Blokhin, dressed in rubber gloves and butcher's  overalls, murdering  upwards of 8000 in carefully  managed all night shifts)

And the  Winter War against the  Finns that  nearly led to  Britain and France  declaring  war on the  Soviet Union. 

Soviet brutality and profligacy with human life was , in many  respects  unparalleled.  POWs were  declared  criminals and their families  punished,  denied basic human rights.  The deportations  of  suspect minorities,  the Volga Germans,  the  Chechens and  others, the  notorious  punishment battalions , the phenomenon of  mass rape, still a taboo subject,  along with collaboration.

The list is  practically endless. 

Operation Keelhaul  is one of the  darkest  chapters in contemporary  history. The Western  Allies  agreeing to  " repatriate " all Soviet  citizens , condemning  hundreds of thousands to  an uncertain future: at best  GULAg then internal  banishment to a closed city, at worst death. 

But it was the  Red Army that  broke the back of the  German  war machine.  It's one of those brutal dicotomies,  perhaps  THE most brutal,  Stalin's  victory  was also " our" victory,  the victory of the West,the  victory of freedom over tyranny. 

This dichotomy is best illustrated by the tragic fate of Poland.

Despite  everything, despite the  monumental  inhumanity of the regime,  the  murderous cynicism  that personified the  Stalinist  state,  Martin  Amis  writes, and I agree,  when it comes to the  Nazi  Soviet  War  you instinctively  know what side you are on

The Americans and the  British,  via Lend Lease help arm and motorised the Red Army  juggernaut.  From the frivolous ( the British supplying the gold braid for the  post Stalingrad  revamp of the  Red Army officer's uniforms ) to the  sinister,  it was   Dodges and  Studebakers  the hapless  reporters were loaded into to begin their nightmarish  journey into the frozen wastes of the North,  or the arid desert  steppe of  Kazakhstan. 

I  agree with every thing you  said  Lanceman,  your post deftly  highlights  the  bitter reality that so often lurks just below the surface of the preferred historical narrative. 

In some respects accepting the brutal truth of  WW2, how " freedom " was secured by striking an alliance with one of the most despotic  regimes in history , is like facing up to the truth behind the assassination. 

Behind the preferred narrative of  Oswald the lone malcontent,  the sociopathic loner who absolved we/ us/ society  to face up to the  truth.

A sinner has repented! Praise be!

Sandy Larsen at the Ed Forum wrote:Hopefully he [Hargrove] and John Armstrong will factor this new finding into their larger H&L theory. (Though I don't have high hopes for that. Armstrong became abusive to me when I pointed out that the second floor encounter didn't occur, because Oswald -- as it turns out -- was out on the steps during the p. parade. That was Oswald's alibi that the FBI covered up.)

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27746-evidence-that-the-bus-transfer-and-unfired-38-rounds-were-never-found-on-oswald/?do=findComment&comment=459529

Armstrong has been quite critical of Prayer Man over the years.

I could not give a toss what Mr "Probably" Armstrong thinks or does. For starters I have seen all the documentary evidence Malcolm Blunt dug out and provided him with to make that Harriet & Lillian horseshit drama, but he did not pay attention what was actually in front of him at all. He did not share the Oswald Project title change...with MB and subsequently they fell out for over a year. MB was thanked somewhere like a dodo of no importance in the middle of the list of peeps. Out of spite? Nah surely not! 

Had he however paid attention to the documentation without dragging the doppelganger 'sisters' in he probably would have written the ultimate book on the case. That's something he can ponder about for his remaining days.

Instead he has to have the support from parrots like Wankgrove and delusional believers (at best!!!) like Larson and pill swallowing members like John Butler railroading threads and boring everyone else with their small cocked pet theories.

These cunts bore me..............


Fuck off already!