The Road to Perdition

Nah, not the movie...

The condition of the road between Irving and Dallas in 1963.

Hilly? Flat? Lots of curves? Straight? Well-maintained? Riddled with pot-holes? Slippery when wet? 

I'm just trying to imagine the diasassembled MC inside a homemade sack and laying loose on the backseat of Buell's jallopy as it makes its way to infamy.

A smart man might tape all the bits and pieces together to stap them rattling around on the trip. But then we need to add time for what is already a crazily tight timeline for taking the tape off. 

Or maybe my assumption is wrong and the parts would be perfectly secure and not rattly on the trip? 

But I've always had a problem with that paper not ripping on sharp edges or uneven surfaces. 

I can't even wrap a tortilla without ripping it, let alone anything bulky or long.

Oswald meticulously plans the Walker shooting over several days with a photo-reconnaissance which includes a hiding place for the rifle but carries the rifle to and from the shooting fully assembled on public transportation either under or wrapped in a coat during week of unusually hot and dry weather.

For the spur of the moment JFK assassination, Oswald disassembles the rifle, miraculously reducing the length of the package from 42 inches to about 2 feet (per Frazier and Randle), wrapping it in paper taken from the TSBD but apparently not seen by Frazier on Thursday, ruining any previous sighting done for the telescopic sight and requiring re-assembly using either a coin or tools no one remembers him asking to borrow.

The route between Irving and the TSBD looks pretty flat. Frazier does not seem to be a wild driver.

https://youtu.be/OEnmCB5zmtI?t=1539

Note at 41:00 into the video, there is no mention of having to re-assemble the rifle. Also note that as the narrator mentions that “The assassin’s view is excellent”, the footage is actually from the Dal-Tex building!

lanceman wrote:Oswald meticulously plans the Walker shooting over several days with a photo-reconnaissance which includes a hiding place for the rifle but carries the rifle to and from the shooting fully assembled on public transportation either under or wrapped in a coat during week of unusually hot and dry weather.

For the spur of the moment JFK assassination, Oswald disassembles the rifle, miraculously reducing the length of the package from 42 inches to about 2 feet (per Frazier and Randle), wrapping it in paper taken from the TSBD but apparently not seen by Frazier on Thursday, ruining any previous sighting done for the telescopic sight and requiring re-assembly using either a coin or tools no one remembers him asking to borrow.

The route between Irving and the TSBD looks pretty flat. Frazier does not seem to be a wild driver.

https://youtu.be/OEnmCB5zmtI?t=1539

Note at 41:00 into the video, there is no mention of having to re-assemble the rifle. Also note that as the narrator mentions that “The assassin’s view is excellent”, the footage is actually from the Dal-Tex building!

Looked a little hilly to me, but not too bad. 

Buell however was a 19 year old driving a car a few years old and probaby with less than stellar suspension. He may have also been running a little late too, which may mean driving a little faster than he normally might. And it's not like you guys pay much attention over there to speed limits!

The point is, if you were trying to conceal the contents of the package, would you risk the parts rattling around on the trip and and hope that sayig they are curtain rods is enough to explain any rattling?

Also wouldn't a disassembled rifle be a bit bulkier than a couple of curtain rods?

And yes, that did look like the view from the Dal Tex.

I suspect that got Marrion Baker to show them where the nest was .

You can see the view is from the east of Houston St. and no elm tree is in the way. Looks like it is on the south side of the Dal-Tex building rather than the side facing the TSBD. Looks like the traffic signal pole/arm in front of the TSBD has been removed.

The film was released November 21, 1964 so I guess it was filmed sometime over the (northern hemisphere!) summer.

Buell's car was quite in bad condition too. He later sold it just for 10 dollars.

Buell and his sister are the only two who supposedly saw Lee with the package. At least two said he was not carrying any package - Lee himself and Jack Dougherty.  I was listening to a podcast (Hunley and Groubert) when it was mentioned that Buell's mother also stated for the FBI that Lee was not carrying a package. Apparently there is a document on this????? Is anyone aware of this story whether it is real or not?

laforge wrote:Buell and his sister are the only two who supposedly saw Lee with the package. At least two said he was not carrying any package - Lee himself and Jack Dougherty.  I was listening to a podcast (Hunley and Groubert) when it was mentioned that Buell's mother also stated for the FBI that Lee was not carrying a package. Apparently there is a document on this????? Is anyone aware of this story whether it is real or not?

That's not quite what the document says. It says she "did not see this person carrying anything".
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95672#relPageId=148

If he was carrying something, it would depend on how he was carryting it as to whether she could have seen it through the window. In essence, she is not a witness for either side. 

I'll note here too that normally Buell would pick Lee up at the Paine home, but allegedly this morning, Buell was running late, so Lee went to him rather than wait. 

Why would Lee walk with this poorly concealed weapon (according to the police, the bag looked like a gun case!!!) past neighbors just because Buell was a few minutes late for a job he knew he was going to be fired from soon anyway?

I don't believe it was Oswald Essie saw through the window.

I think it was young Benny Caster who worked with Bill Randle and was going to be travelling with him that morning to a job in Austin. 

Another neighbor saw Benny getting in the work vehicle with Bill and later told another neighbor, it was Oswald - with those Chinese whispers reaching authorities, causing even more confusion for those of us trying to put it together 50 or 60 years later. 

But I have arrived at the conclusion that Buell did pick Lee up that morning at the Paine residence per normal and that the story of Lee going to the Randle residence was designed pure and simply to allow Buell and Linnie to be bag witnesses.

Thank you for the document, Greg. I used to think I knew quite a bit about this case, but it seems that the more I read about it, the less I know.

laforge wrote:Thank you for the document, Greg. I used to think I knew quite a bit about this case, but it seems that the more I read about it, the less I know.

Yep, I think we all fall into that category

So, what happened to the curtain rods?

Were curtain rods ever found in the TSBD?
Was the man on the bus carrying a package?
Was the man seen running down the hill carrying a package?
Was the man in the the taxi cab carrying a package?
Did Frazier and Linnie Randle make up the story?
When Earlene Roberts saw Oswald at 1:00, was he carrying a package?
Was there never a 2 foot package to begin with?

Steve Thomas

Steve Thomas wrote:So, what happened to the curtain rods?

They were in the garage on a shelf during the Warren Commission hearings, as I am cetain you know. Were they there all along is the only question.

Were curtain rods ever found in the TSBD?

Not officially as far as i know.

Was the man on the bus carrying a package?

One of the two males on McWatters' bus? No one mentioned either having a package.

Was the man seen running down the hill carrying a package?

You mean Roger Craig's man? AFAIK, not Craig nor any other witness mentions him carrying anything. I think he is just some random accidental red herring.

Was the man in the the taxi cab carrying a package?

Whaley's cab? AFAIK, Whaley said nothing about the drunk he dropped off 7 blocks from the boarding house at 1026 N Beckley carrying anything. 

Did Frazier and Linnie Randle make up the story?

I believe so, but not out of whole cloth. Oswald allegedly told police he had mentioned curtain rods to Buell on a previous occasion. Since they were no longer needed, It appears to me that Ruth said the Oswald's could have them when they got their own place. 

When Earlene Roberts saw Oswald at 1:00, was he carrying a package?

I don't believe that Roberts saw Oswald ever - let alone any time that day.

She collected rent payments and kept notes in a book or on scraps of paper which were periodically handed over to the Johnsons to update their ledgers.

Mrs Johnson offered one such note as evidence against Oswald. It noted several payments from O H Lee along with the dates. Under that, we see the word OUT, with dates and possibly another word whited out at Mrs Johnsons request. She thought this date was the 13th or 15th.

It is silly to think that Roberts made notes of the comings and goings of residents as in "Mr Lee went OUT on 11/15. Didn't say where".

What she would make notes about is when someone MOVED OUT. 

Since this note was actually about the only Mr Lee staying there - Herbert Leon Lee - it makes sense that the note said either that he MOVED OUT 13/11 or on 15/11.

Johnson testified that she thought she last saw MR LEE on 11/13 and Mrs Roberts last saw him on 11/15 - and that was the reason she wanted that erased - because she was (she claimed) out by a week. But again WHY WERE THEY MAKING NOTES ABOUT SOMEONE GOING OUT? And apart from that, it seems no one in this case could keep dates straight. Mrs Paine had the same problem on her calendar notes concerning the Oswalds.

If we accept it was Herbert Lee who moved in on Oct 14 - then leaving mid Novemeber fits with the length of stay noted in the FBI report.

He claims he lived there for 4 or 5 weeks during October and moved out Novemeber 1. - that part, a lie. 

He moved in on October 14 and moved out on Novemeber 13, but returned 2 days later to retrieve a jacket he left there - and that is when he rushed in and was seen and spoken to by Mrs Roberts.. 

The narrative of Oswald's movements on Friday Nov 22 is a total sham from start to finsish. 

And we will forever be going in circles asking the same questions if we hang on to curtain rods, 2nd floor lunchroom encounters, bus and taxi trips that make zero sense, and accept such nonsense as housekeepers making rigorous notes about the comings and goings of lodgers. 

All total bollocks that have no place on the table.

@Steve Thomas - In line with your question on the EF regarding fingerprints on the discarded shells, why not check the sleeve of the amazing Technicolor dream coat found  under the car for nitrates?

me wrote:And we will forever be going in circles asking the same questions if we hang on to curtain rods, 2nd floor lunchroom encounters, bus and taxi trips that make zero sense, and accept such nonsense as housekeepers making rigorous notes about the comings and goings of lodgers. 

I may have been a bit rash throwing curtain rods in with everything else mentioned. 

Having read Gil Jesus' piece on the rods, I did some checking on his accuracy and found at least some of the main points to be accurate and a good starting point for further exploration. 

The upshot is, I am fairly confident this is now in the solved pile. At least until someone comes up with something that is even more persuasive 

Until I get a chance to write it all up, the bare bones are

we initially have 4 rods wrapped up in the garage

mike handing that package over to the cops some time after the assassination.

the cops testing for Oswald prints and coming up empty.

the cops destroying two rods, keeping the wrapping paper and returning two rods to the garage for rediscovery during Ruth garage testimony. 

the rods were likely part of the frame pre-assassination, to be used as a means of having Lee carry a package to work that could later be claimed was the rifle. 

It seems Lee was supposed to take the rods to work to give to a fellow employee (I am guessing the week prior), but he forgot or otherwise failed to do it. The story that was going to be floated was the one we all know. He took a long package that morning that he claimed was curtain rods to use for himself. The fact that he forgot to take them, didn't matter. They had Buell as a witness corroborated by Linnie Mae.

The length of the rods when joined = 36 inches
The length of the assembled MC rifle "found" in the TSBD = 36 inches

The length of the individual (unjoined/unassembled) rods = 27.5 inches
The estimated length of the package according to Buell and Linnie-Mae = 27 inches. 


Everything listed here is either directly confirmed in testimony and/or exhibits, or can be drawn as an inference from it. 

& that's a wrap!