Choose Search Type
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Similar topics
Latest topics
» Prayer Man Vs Sasquatch
Today at 4:25 pm by Hasan Yusuf

» ROKC Lampoon
Today at 4:24 pm by greg parker

» Prayer Man in the News
Today at 12:01 pm by greg parker

» Marina Oswald FBI 10/29 interview
Today at 11:49 am by greg parker

» Shirley Temple is Prayer Man According to Duncan McRae
Today at 1:53 am by Jake Sykes

» The Bold and the Italics
Fri 09 Dec 2016, 9:06 am by greg parker

» The Eighth Naval District
Thu 08 Dec 2016, 11:33 pm by Hasan Yusuf

» Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2
Thu 08 Dec 2016, 8:08 pm by barto

» Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt1
Thu 08 Dec 2016, 11:58 am by barto

Log in

I forgot my password

Social bookmarking

Social bookmarking Digg  Social bookmarking Delicious  Social bookmarking Reddit  Social bookmarking Stumbleupon  Social bookmarking Slashdot  Social bookmarking Furl  Social bookmarking Yahoo  Social bookmarking Google  Social bookmarking Blinklist  Social bookmarking Blogmarks  Social bookmarking Technorati  

Bookmark and share the address of REOPENKENNEDYCASE on your social bookmarking website

Bookmark and share the address of REOPENKENNEDYCASE on your social bookmarking website

RSS feeds


Yahoo! 
MSN 
AOL 
Netvibes 
Bloglines 


Affiliates
free forum
 



LHO and possibilities of espionage around him

View previous topic View next topic Go down

LHO and possibilities of espionage around him

Post by 9K116 on Wed 19 Jun 2013, 6:18 am

I believe we can agree that is proved that LHO didn't match `agent profile` in period of defection to USSR as well as after returning to USA. Some short thesis why:
- Poor social skills; 
- Problems controlling his own emotions and gestures;
from here

- Activities both during defection and, allegedly, connected with assassination on JFK:
from here

I will try to review some variants of espionage activities around LHO and/or with his help.

To begin, I must emphasize - it is very important to understand - that while in USSR, LHO was in total surveilance of KGB. I am sure KGB tried to follow him in every step he made, to listen every word he said, to intercept and read every letter he wrote on paper. Every human being he met or talked with also automatically became figure of interest of KGB. Besides, I believe most of people around him was acting or unwitting agents of KGB.

That means 2 almost certain things:
1. It would be practically impossible for LHO to make contact with another American agent on soil of USSR.
2. It would be practically impossible to transfer some package to another American agent on the soil of USSR. Most likely, this package would be detected and investigated during LHO stay in the hotel even in the Minsk period. Besides, transfer of such packages, imho, requires intelligence agent or operative with much higher level of training and skills than LHO could have.

So, my conclusion is if LHO had mission consisting of one or above, he most likely should fail it. Especially, after he was transfered to Minsk - the CIA or whoever could be his superior, could not foresee that. 

While we are still not too far from emphasis of total surveilance of LHO, I would follow with next conclusion, which is that Marina most likely was an acting KGB agent, especially if claims of her activities before Minsk are true - see here

Asuming that CIA or whoever could be LHO superiors could foresee the total surveilance of him in USSR, I have lot of doubts that LHO had intelligence mission behind his defection.

However, I find this Greg's post in Education Forum, which means Greg has some information on mission of another kind that LHO could have. I would be appreciated if Greg could share little bit more info on this issue.

It is known, that after a continious surveilance KGB made decision that LHO is no threat for USSR and he does not show any intelligence activity. Questions to be answered:
- Was total surveilance cancelled while LHO was still in USSR?
- Is it possible that he, however, was on intelligence mission, which deliberately was foreseen long enough to wait while KGB total would be cancelled? And LHO started his intelligence activities only when surveilance was suspended?

Since people do not retire from KGB like from any other job or profession, Marina should have instructions how to establish contact with KGB after she travel to USA together with LHO. KGB won't let go its agent with such great possibility to legalize in USA. However, it is most likely that KGB won't rush with contacting her, since they also knew she could be under surveilance of FBI and too soon interest towards her could terminate her as valuable agent. My conclusion will be that she most likely wasn't contacted until November 22, 1963, and after that day she lost her value as agent because of becoming to popular. If I was her supervisor in KGB, I would terminate her file just after I learned that LHO is accused in assassination of JFK.

I believe that American side, i.e. FBI certainly understood this detail and, if we believe in involvement of FBI in the coverup of JFK assassination conspiracy, could use it as instrument to make Marina give statements they needed. She could be forced to comply with threat being accused in espionage against USA...

9K116

Posts : 75
Join date : 2010-04-08
Location : Riga, Latvija

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and possibilities of espionage around him

Post by greg parker on Wed 19 Jun 2013, 10:04 am

9K116 wrote:I believe we can agree that is proved that LHO didn't match `agent profile` in period of defection to USSR as well as after returning to USA. Some short thesis why:
- Poor social skills; 
- Problems controlling his own emotions and gestures;
from here

I think he actually had very good control of his emotions. That's different to being able to properly show empathy, or understanding social cues and norms.

- Activities both during defection and, allegedly, connected with assassination on JFK:
from here

I will try to review some variants of espionage activities around LHO and/or with his help.

To begin, I must emphasize - it is very important to understand - that while in USSR, LHO was in total surveilance of KGB. I am sure KGB tried to follow him in every step he made, to listen every word he said, to intercept and read every letter he wrote on paper. Every human being he met or talked with also automatically became figure of interest of KGB. Besides, I believe most of people around him was acting or unwitting agents of KGB.

My belief is that KGB was not "in the loop" and so would have kept a close eye on him. I think LHO's mission was aided on the USSR side by Mikoyan.  

That means 2 almost certain things:
1. It would be practically impossible for LHO to make contact with another American agent on soil of USSR.
2. It would be practically impossible to transfer some package to another American agent on the soil of USSR. Most likely, this package would be detected and investigated during LHO stay in the hotel even in the Minsk period. Besides, transfer of such packages, imho, requires intelligence agent or operative with much higher level of training and skills than LHO could have. 

If he did bring something in, it was not to give to any US agent of officer. It was for the Soviets. Radar was a major issue in test ban talks (that is, the ability to detect tests through radar). My theory is that Ike's White House wanted to share that technology with the Soviets to clear the path for a ban -- but it could not be done openly because of the Hawks in the administration. The solution was to do it covertly. Odd as it may sound, doing it this way was perfectly legal under the terms of the Science Exchange agreement with the Soviets. The CIA - as I believe they had done in the past -- gave support to this Special Group operation -- but was not itself, running it. The CIA thus found out the nature of the mission (to save the test ban talks) and acted to negate it by ordering a U2 flight behind Ike's back and ensuring or knowing it would be brought down. 

Oswald's sole work experience prior to the Marines was as a messenger/courier. There is every reason to believe his employer was "connected" to private and/or government covert agencies. 
 

So, my conclusion is if LHO had mission consisting of one or above, he most likely should fail it. Especially, after he was transfered to Minsk - the CIA or whoever could be his superior, could not foresee that. 

On the contrary, I think it became part of the arrangement to send him to the Horizon factory so that he could gather intelligence as quid pro quo for the radar info. The factory was of some intelligence interest to the US and I believe Oswald was given a limited amount of time in the experimental shop to gather whatever data he could. 

While we are still not too far from emphasis of total surveilance of LHO, I would follow with next conclusion, which is that Marina most likely was an acting KGB agent, especially if claims of her activities before Minsk are true - see here

Asuming that CIA or whoever could be LHO superiors could foresee the total surveilance of him in USSR, I have lot of doubts that LHO had intelligence mission behind his defection.

However, I find this Greg's post in Education Forum, which means Greg has some information on mission of another kind that LHO could have. I would be appreciated if Greg could share little bit more info on this issue.

No details on a mission - just speculation which kind of sticks out when you do a timeline of events, and then look at little known or discussed details. I have for instance, never seen anyone write about the radar issue with regard the test ban talks -- yet it is a rock solid fact - moreover, one that a key WH insider admitted caused them to become creative in resolving it.  

It is known, that after a continious surveilance KGB made decision that LHO is no threat for USSR and he does not show any intelligence activity. Questions to be answered:
- Was total surveilance cancelled while LHO was still in USSR?
- Is it possible that he, however, was on intelligence mission, which deliberately was foreseen long enough to wait while KGB total would be cancelled? And LHO started his intelligence activities only when surveilance was suspended?

Those questions are immaterial if my scenario is correct.

Since people do not retire from KGB like from any other job or profession, Marina should have instructions how to establish contact with KGB after she travel to USA together with LHO. KGB won't let go its agent with such great possibility to legalize in USA. However, it is most likely that KGB won't rush with contacting her, since they also knew she could be under surveilance of FBI and too soon interest towards her could terminate her as valuable agent. My conclusion will be that she most likely wasn't contacted until November 22, 1963, and after that day she lost her value as agent because of becoming to popular. If I was her supervisor in KGB, I would terminate her file just after I learned that LHO is accused in assassination of JFK.

I'll have more to say on Marina at some point, but too much to go into here.

I believe that American side, i.e. FBI certainly understood this detail and, if we believe in involvement of FBI in the coverup of JFK assassination conspiracy, could use it as instrument to make Marina give statements they needed. She could be forced to comply with threat being accused in espionage against USA...

Something caused her to comply after initially not doing so. The above is as good as any other suggestion.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3459
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and possibilities of espionage around him

Post by 9K116 on Wed 19 Jun 2013, 5:45 pm

I think he actually had very good control of his emotions. That's different to being able to properly show empathy, or understanding social cues and norms.
Ok, I have no objections to that. 
My belief is that KGB was not "in the loop" and so would have kept a close eye on him. I think LHO's mission was aided on the USSR side by Mikoyan.
It's not so simple. If LHO had some package with him, the responsible officer of KGB should know about it, if there was aide of the side of USSR in the level of Mikoyan - to ensure the package comes in the right hands. Most likely, the group of KGB, responsible for surveilance and following on LHO, was given special orders.
If he did bring something in, it was not to give to any US agent of officer. It was for the Soviets.
Ok, so far it makes sense.
Radar was a major issue in test ban talks (that is, the ability to detect tests through radar).
At the moment I can't see how radar could be used to detect tests. Yes, I believe that radars could be used to detect missiles flying over certain area, and maybe even behind horizon, but can radar detect nuclear blast? Ok, maybe it can detect the mushroom cloud after the explosion, I don't know.
My theory is that Ike's White House wanted to share that technology with the Soviets to clear the path for a ban -- but it could not be done openly because of the Hawks in the administration. The solution was to do it covertly. Odd as it may sound, doing it this way was perfectly legal under the terms of the Science Exchange agreement with the Soviets.
Ok, it sounds reasonable enough. Besides, it reveals possible motivation of assassination of JFK - sharing the secret or advanced technologies with the `worst enemy` always can be easily viewed as treason. Even if the sharing of technologies could be defined as legal under certain agreements or legal acts. Some people always have different views (and if I understand correctly, you call these peoples Hawks Wink).
The CIA thus found out the nature of the mission (to save the test ban talks) and acted to negate it by ordering a U2 flight behind Ike's back and ensuring or knowing it would be brought down.
I am not so sure about this. Generally, because American recon planes flew freely over Soviet air space all over 50-ies. The flight of Powers, as far as I know, was not anyhow special; it just happened so that excatly his flight was shot down - nobody could not be sure about that. Soviet interceptors in that time could not achieve altitude of U-2 plane, and SAM missiles, used in shotdown of Powers, weren't new - they were in use from 1957, just like U-2 plane.
Oswald's sole work experience prior to the Marines was as a messenger/courier. There is every reason to believe his employer was "connected" to private and/or government covert agencies.
I have no objections for that.
On the contrary, I think it became part of the arrangement to send him to the Horizon factory so that he could gather intelligence as quid pro quo for the radar info. The factory was of some intelligence interest to the US and I believe Oswald was given a limited amount of time in the experimental shop to gather whatever data he could.
My believe is foreign defector, especially from USA, would be never let in the any secret Soviet installment. While `Horizont` factory could have some secret workshops or orders from military or related sectors, LHO most likely won't be let in or near them. 
Those questions are immaterial if my scenario is correct.
Yes, that's right.

9K116

Posts : 75
Join date : 2010-04-08
Location : Riga, Latvija

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and possibilities of espionage around him

Post by greg parker on Wed 19 Jun 2013, 11:12 pm

At the moment I can't see how radar could be used to detect tests. Yes, I believe that radars could be used to detect missiles flying over certain area, and maybe even behind horizon, but can radar detect nuclear blast? Ok, maybe it can detect the mushroom cloud after the explosion, I don't know.


Much of the early research into effective Over The Horizon systems was carried out under the direction of Dr. William J. Thaler at the Naval Research Laboratory; The work was dubbed "Project Teepee" (Thaler's project). Their first experimental system, MUSIC (Multiple Storage, Integration, and Correlation), became operational in 1955 and was able to detect rocket launches 600 miles (970 km) away at Cape Canaveral, and nuclear explosions in Nevada at 1,700 miles (2,700 km). A greatly improved system, a testbed for an operational radar, was later built in 1961 as MADRE (Magnetic-Drum Radar Equipment) at Chesapeake Bay. As the names imply, both systems relied on the comparison of returned signals stored on magnetic drums, then the only high-speed storage systems available.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the-horizon_radar

The White House, in my opinion, was happy to pass on information about the MUSIC system because they also had the superior MADRE system almost ready to roll out.


Ok, it sounds reasonable enough. Besides, it reveals possible motivation of assassination of JFK - sharing the secret or advanced technologies with the `worst enemy` always can be easily viewed as treason. Even if the sharing of technologies could be defined as legal under certain agreements or legal acts. Some people always have different views (and if I understand correctly, you call these peoples Hawks ). 

Hawks were those who wanted war or a nuclear strike as a first (and sometimes pre-emptive) option. By the late '50s, Ike was distancing himself from the Hawks.


I am not so sure about this. Generally, because American recon planes flew freely over Soviet air space all over 50-ies. The flight of Powers, as far as I know, was not anyhow special; it just happened so that excatly his flight was shot down - nobody could not be sure about that. Soviet interceptors in that time could not achieve altitude of U-2 plane, and SAM missiles, used in shotdown of Powers, weren't new - they were in use from 1957, just like U-2 plane. 



Firstly, there is this - clearly stating that Eisenhower wanted the overflights stopped.  This was March, 1959. He gives the reason as being because of the "tense situation"
http://www.eisenhower.archives.gov/research/online_documents/u2_incident/3_4_59_MFR.pdf



By March the following year, the CIA convinced Ike that ( a ) the Soviets would not have the capability to bring down a u2 for at least a few months - and that ( b ) more overflights were absolutely essential to confirm belief that the Soviets had a growing advantage in ICBMs.


The CIA knew both ( a ) and ( b ) were lies. The wanted an overflight prior to the next test ban summit and they wanted it brought down.  
http://www.eisenhower.archives.gov/research/online_documents/u2_incident/4_59_U2_Vulnerability.pdf


Ike was conned.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3459
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: LHO and possibilities of espionage around him

Post by Sponsored content Today at 5:06 pm


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum