"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[GuestGuest]

No doubt his career would be destroyed in the process and very likely the investigation would have failed. This would have set things back even farther. Not to mention the very real danger to his family. His best chance was to gain as much power for himself, before he attempted to take them on...


I'lll agree with you in so far as that was what Hamlet Kennedy told himself and his courtiers, but he was sadly mistaken. While he was in office he had the high ground, the institutional power of the Attorney General as  the nation's chief law enforcement officer is tremendous. He had 100 times the resources as Jim Garrison's District Attorney office-- ultimately and the political reality was he couldn't be fired.  Out of office, he was a sitting duck.

The AG, like all Cabinet heads, serves at the pleasure of the president. While LBJ couldn't fire him, he certainly could have undermined his authority. The DOJ like all Cabinet depts. was an entrenched bureaucracy, riddled with CIA and FBI assets, and composed mainly of lifers who were sensitive to which way the wind was blowing. I think it would be very difficult for RFK to marshal his forces and mount a full scale investigation at that time. He would be opposed by Hoover, the CIA, LBJ, and more importantly the establishment powers behind the assassination.

[ianlloyd]

Gordon,

Would you think the DOJ is no longer "...riddled with CIA and FBI assets..." etc.?

[GuestGuest]

Gordon,

Would you think the DOJ is no longer "...riddled with CIA and FBI assets..." etc.?

No, of course not. If any think it's worse.

[ianlloyd]

Ha!

I just thought I'd throw that one in! Response as expected!!

[GuestGuest]

Ha!

I just thought I'd throw that one in! Response as expected!!

Do you have a point?

[ianlloyd]

No, just asking...

[GuestGuest]

No, just asking...

Why was my response funny to you, and predictable?

[ianlloyd]

No, certainly not funny...but, same as you it seems, I don't think anything's really changed in 50 years. I probably should have explained a bit more...

[ianlloyd]

I suppose I should really just stick to the topic of the thread...

[Hasan Yusuf]

Here is a movie I made to show the timing was fudged if a second floor encounter happened. I think this was made using clips from Executive Action that was made in the TSBD.

Nice movie, Colin. Thanks for posting it.

[ianlloyd]

Gordon,

Would you think the DOJ is no longer "...riddled with CIA and FBI assets..." etc.?

No, of course not. If any think it's worse.

Gordon, 

Would you be so kind as to direct me toward any evidence of this please?

[GuestGuest]

Gordon,

Would you think the DOJ is no longer "...riddled with CIA and FBI assets..." etc.?

No, of course not. If any think it's worse.

Gordon, 

Would you be so kind as to direct me toward any evidence of this please?

I have no evidence of it for today, but I do know from many sources I've read(Fletchcer Prouty would be one) that Allen Dulles established a network of CIA assets in every dept. at all levels of Govt. National, State, and Local. He had CIA assets in local police forces. Don't see why that would change. We live in much more of a police state today than we did in 1963.

[dwdunn(akaDan)]

"If RFK knew the assassination was a coup d'état he also knew his authority as attorney general was worthless as far as investigating the coup d'état was concerned. The diabolical entities who murdered the ostensibly most powerful man in the world to seize power for themselves were hardly likely to allow a subordinate, now isolated, call them to account."

Have you ever read Edmund Morris's wonderful Theodore Roosevelt biography triology? Now that was a man. He was too wealthy to be bribed, too happily married to be seduced and too fearless to be be afraid of anything or anyone. More than once, he flipped the script on men who thought him checkmated by going to the press and riding a wave of public outrage to victory. One can only imagine how Teddy Roosevelt would have reacted if he were Attorney General and it was HIS brother who was assassinated.  Insofar as Robert Kennedy fell short of what the man on Mt. Rushmore would have done, I think he did a disservice to his country and himself.
Edit: Roosevelt's fictional alter ego is, of course, Bruce Wayne.
http://chronicle.com/blognetwork/edgeofthewest/2008/07/27/teddy-in-tights/

mr. wulf, you're speculating on what you think Robert Kennedy should have done in a negative comparison with your speculation on what you think Teddy Roosevelt would have done had he been in Kennedy's place. There's no way you can lose such an argument.

[John Mooney]

This is how Baker saw Oswald for the first time:



According to this reenactment to check the timing:



It's a joke.

There is no way Baker saw Oswald like this.

They know that if the door was shut then Oswald would not have been in the field of vision of Baker just coming up the stairs (as he told the Warren Commission). Oswald having stepped through the door would have turned sharp left immediately whilst the door was closing.

Also according to Baker's WC testimony, when he ran to the door and opened it and hollered "come here" at Oswald he was 20 feet away (past the coke machine)



It doesn't make any sense and the attached video doesn't try to make sense of it.

[John Mooney]

There is a short clip of a 1963 Secret Service reenactment in the attached video (at 3.40)

Here are some stills from it and some observations, I added where I thought Baker would have come up the stairs.



There appears to be a pillar between the stairs and the door that is not on the WC floor plans.

Is that right?

[Colin_Crow]

Guys, the Dave Perry inspired recreation is a sham from start to finish in that documentary. They cut each of the landings between the floors out by using a continuous staircase in that building. Also they used footage of the guy at a pace that was much slower than he had to move to get there in time. Very deceptive. 

This is a video in which I spliced the secret service footage and sped up to a fast walk to estimate the timing. 74-78 seconds seems about right. Note the doorway to the vestibule and the boxes on the right with the open top. From that position you can see the lunchroom. For Baker to have seen Oswald from the top of the stairs as he claimed, Oswald must have gone from right to left in front of the window. Not merely ducked inside and turned left.

https://youtu.be/zy2rY0hV7fM

This video was edited to show how quick the guy really had to move to get there in the time they claimed. You need to add time for the 4 x 20 foot landings they didn't include.

https://youtu.be/FF5Riqbw5Vg

[John Mooney]

Yes I did wonder about the staircase. More sleight of hand. Just like Dale Myers.

[Frankie Vegas]

Ignore this, just commenting so I can receive notifications and follow the conversation.

[John Mooney]

As regards my own question about the pillar, yes there was one.

Now, there appears to be some kind of a vestibule or hall of one kind or another with the No. 22 in a circle on it, on Exhibit 497. Is this completely clear, or are there books there from time to time?
Mr. TRULY. No; that is always clear. There is a few cartons of office stock, invoices, blank invoices and stationery and stuff up and down here. But there is always a pathway. There is a post, right about where this 22 is. You can always clear it and come by there. I don't think there would ever be stock here that would obstruct your view of the other area across there.

 
The question is,  how much did it (and the stock)  block Baker's view of the door.

Truely says he was some feet ahead of Baker and he saw no one, so the door was closed when Baker came to the top of the stairs. If the door was closed then Oswald was already out of sight looking from the stairway.

Unless he walked past the window from hall (ie from the front stairs).

I don't think it happened. Baker's story is an invention.

[John Mooney]

I just read Roy Truly's testimony.

I think we have more sleight of hand!



"No".

Wrong Roy. It's the post, and the same table is up against it as in the SS reconstruction.

I wonder what the view from the stairs really looked like.

[John Mooney]

I think I can mark on the floor plan with a resonable degree of certainty where the pillar is.



Because if you look at the floor plans of the other floors (the 6th is the best example), the pillars line up with the brickwork between windows. Which makes sense if the building was constructed as a box girder type internal support building.

Has anyone ever taken a picture from the top of the stairs because I've a feeling the view is either partially or wholly blocked.

[John Mooney]

You have to wonder why the Commission didn't show Truly this picture instead of CE 498:



You would almost suspect that with CE 498 they were trying to give the impression that that was Baker's view of the door.

I've searched and I can't find any pictures taken from Baker's position.

[GuestGuest]

You have to wonder why the Commission didn't show Truly this picture instead of CE 498:



You would almost suspect that with CE 498 they were trying to give the impression that that was Baker's view of the door.

I've searched and I can't find any pictures taken from Baker's position.

This would have been LHO's view of the door had he actually come down the stairs. If as Sean has suggested he heard someone coming up he would have gone through the door and ducked to his left not the right, to avoid being seen. If after Truly passed he then decided to go back to the stairs just as Baker was coming up, he would have been behind Baker in the window and the only way Baker could have seen him was if he had eyes in the back of his head.

[John Mooney]

That well may have been Baker's view for a split second as he was following Truly. it would have been almost immediately blocked as he turned left.

I am very suspicious of Belin's leading questions to Truly about Commission Exhibit 498. Surely Belin had seen all the pictures and Truly knew that was the post?

It's as if they want us to think that's the way Baker walked (towards the door) and the path was clear.

What if there was stock in the way and blocking the view.  The SS reconstruction has a different configuration of boxes and they appear to be nearer the table.

Something was going on here.

[ianlloyd]

The question from Belin seems to be rather disingenuous. I suspect he knew it was a pillar otherwise why ask such a a direct and specific question about it? Perhaps it was realised that it compromised Baker's story, and somehow or another he had to get it on the record from Truly that it was not a pillar. Showing Truly the cropped photograph was therefore a pre-requisite and Truly could always honestly claim afterwards, if he was asked, that he was genuinely mistaken (which, by the way, he may well have been).

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